Talk:Pseudo-legendary Pokémon

What???

What??? Do we seriously need this??? --Theryguy512 20:06, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

im not going to say its unnessecary, but "Psuedo-legendary" sounds really stupid. so, i think it should either be reworked or deleted. maybe just add to each pokemon's trivia section that they are near legendary or somthing. MAGNEDETHTARIDNEDOPT 20:12, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I say reworked^Po_ke^ma_ni^ac₁0²♪_♫ 20:16, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Needs moar reworking. I'll add the cleanup sign.. Tina ^δ♫ 20:21, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

what should they be called then? or do yall think the anme is OK? MAGNEDETHTARIDNEDOPT 20:36, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

What'ch ya tryin' to say huh!?^Po_ke^ma_ni^ac₁0²♪_♫ 20:38, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Seems to me that this would an article if where was a "Competitive Battling Project" thing. I do believe I heard the term "Pseudo-legendary" at least once in some places such as Smogon... Mudkipchan

I heard it before. But that was when it was refering to the Groudon in jirachi movie

They are all generally recognised as a set of unique pokemon with a few exceptions to each. (e.g. Garchomp's national pokedex number). However, the fan-term 'pseudo-legendary' in itself only actually refers to their final stages. (Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamence, Metagross, Garchomp). Isn't this a bit inaccurate? --Hyurnat4 08:44, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Well in the anime, Dratini was specifically called a legendary pokemon in Legend of Dratini felinoel 20:35, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Flygon?

I thought only base 600s were psudeo legendary. Why is flygon here? The Placebo Effect 02:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not too sure either. o__O; Tina ^δ♫ 02:53, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

It's a three-stage part-dragon type that can only be found in its first form. S^hi_ny ^No_ct^ow_l  02:54, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

i dont think Flygon should be there, its just not rediculous enough MAGNEDETH 02:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Dragonair?

CAn't you find wild dragonair in more than 1 game? The Placebo Effect 03:19, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, FRLGRBYDP, But in DP you can find Pokéradar-ed Vibrava. So? Midnight Celtic 03:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

the fact of the matter is that Dragonite is def a psuedo-leg. MAGNEDETH 03:24, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Midnight Celtic 03:25, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Aggron

What about Aggron? KPF 04:37, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Aggron's UU, I believe. UU Pokémon wouldn't be psuedolegendary if they were in UU. :p Tina ^δ♫ 04:39, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

may i ask what UU is? MAGNEDETH 04:41, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I think it means Under-used, as in List of Pokémon by Tier, which is fan-madePokeManiac102 04:45, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Yep, under-used. It's fanmade. As is the term pseudolegendary. Tina ^δ♫ 04:46, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

right, well, Aggron doesnt fit the bill because Lairon can be caught in Victory road, and apparently, thats against the rules...or somthing... MAGNEDETH 04:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

True.PokeManiac102 04:49, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Wait a minute, you can catch Dragonair in the wild, so how is Lairon against the rules? KPF 02:45, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Because Aggron's base stats don't total 600. - Nebula 15:45, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The true defintion of pseudo-legendary is a bst of 600 and a three-stage evolutionary line. Things like Dragonair and gabite being caught in the wild are merely trivial. As is the fact they all have one immunity etc. Aggron, Flygon and Kingdra are NOT pseudo-legendaries and never will be. P-Ls do not have to be dragon-type or dragonoid. --Hyurnat4 08:50, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Real definition for psuedo-legendary

Isn't it a BST of 600? The Placebo Effect 13:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Pseudo-legendary --> Powerhouse

It seems to me that everyone who commented on this page, other than Shiny Noctowl, was dumbfounded as to the article's title and definition therein. For pages dealing with fanon terminology, this is a good sign that something has been done wrong; fanon terms are necessarily known to a large number of fans, as opposed to a select few, or in this case - no more than one.

Furthemore, the page (prior to my editing it) included mentions of Pokémon with legendary characteristics, despite their having nothing to do with the suggested definiton of pseudo-legendary. It was also a mere copy-and-paste of the corresponding section on the Legendary page. Now, as for the definition itself, it should be crystal-clear that the powerhouses, as defined by myself, are distinct in their categorization from any other Pokémon (Flygon, for the sake of discussion). Simply put, they are non-legendary Pokémon whose total base stats is 600, which is a great deal higher than Flygon's 520 (see the trivia paragraph for clarification on Slaking). Besides, what makes Flygon any more special than Aggron, Walrein and the 7 fully-evolved, two-typed starters? All of these match the definition used by Shiny Noctowl. I do hope that competitive usage is not the reason, because Swampert and Infernape clearly outweigh Flygon in that regard.

It amazes me that everyone assumed that the definition was acceptable simply because someone had put it forth. Bulbapedia encourages critical thinking and sets virtually no limits on the users' capacity to edit existing pages. Why was I the only one who had the fortitude to replace the previous definition with one that is actually used by the fandom? --Unown Lord 16:47, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Mudkipchan apparently heard pseudo-legendary on Smogon, and I've heard pseudo-legendary on several websites, so I think it should be moved back. I agree, though, that the definition needed some work. But why remove Flygon? Its stats are slightly lower, but base stats shouldn't be included in the definition. Other than base stats, Flygon is in every way a pseudo-legendary. S^hi_ny ^No_ct^ow_l  13:57, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

You can see my comments on the article's name further below. Now, the explanation for my excluding Flygon should be quite obvious from the pieces of trivia; Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamence, Metagross and Garchomp have more in common than what you listed in your definition, and in fact, they have more in common than just my addition to that definition (a total base stats of 600). Flygon does not share that common denominator; what it does share with the aforementioned five is also shared by at the very least Walrein and Aggron, who are part of a three-stage line, have two types, require nearly as much experience to reach their form, and have an even higher total of base stats (530). If the only reason for which you included Flygon but excluded those two is that you thought only Flygon was available strictly in its first form, then you thought wrong: In Generation III Sealeo and Walrein are also not available in the wild; in Generation IV both Vibrava and Sealeo are available (incidentally, Lairon is not).

But all of that is irrelevant, since neither Flygon nor Walrein (nor Aggron, for that matter) has enough in common with the powerhouses/pseudo-legendaries so as to be added to the group. It is enough to require a total base stats of 600 to limit the group to the five relevant ones (a respectable addition in and of itself), but again, their common denominator is even greater than that. Look at the trivia and see it for yourself. --Unown Lord 13:55, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Shiny, Pseudo-Legendary makes more sense. I.E. My Snorlax is a powerhouse, but it isn't a pseudo-legendary. My Flygon is not my powerhouse, yet it is a pseudo-legendary. Catch my drift? Midnight Celtic 15:28, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Psudo legendary should be used. But the only pokemon that should meet this criteria are those 3 stage evos with a base stat of 600. Slaking is questionable, but I would say no to it, as well as flygon. The Placebo Effect 01:08, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm with Unown Lord. Take it or leave it. -ニョロトノ666 03:29, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

i agree with Placebo, though i think Slaking might be in. but not Flygon. MAGNEDETH 03:31, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I think Midnight Celtic makes a good point, powerhouse can mean ANY strong Pokémon, where as Psuedo-legendary makes a clear point. Glinn 03:37, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect. It depends on the definition, not the connotation that goes along with the given word(s). -ニョロトノ666 03:39, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

What's the point in a defenition if it doesn't explain clearly the subject? Glinn 03:44, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

absolutly, my old car was nicknamed "the powerhouse" but it was definatly not a pokemon! that being said, "powerhouse" is a general term, it sounds more like a metagame term than a true definition. i could load a powerful pokemon with powerful attacks, and ive got a powerhouse, but a psuedo-legendary means its special in some way, and what you are trying to appeal here is to somone whos never jheard the term before, and they will almost understand what psuedo-legendary just by the sound, where as a powerhouse requires an explanation. MAGNEDETH 04:00, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, powerhouse is too broad a term for these Pokémon. Pseudo-legendary fits the bill better. TTEchidna^G_SDS! 05:57, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

First of all, my true gripe was with the contents of the article; redirecting the article to a new title was primarily symbolic of the reshifting of its underlying ideas. However, I would like to point out the irony in the statement that powerhouse is too broad a term spanning just about every overused Pokémon - the same can be said of pseudo-legendary, as evidenced by the fact that this article originally contained a separate list of Pokémon with legendary characteristics!

Furthermore, I personally feel that pseudo-legendary should be used to describe only two Pokémon that are not even mentioned in the article: Unown and Phione. Legendary alludes to mystery and nature or universe-controlling abilities; this article deals with battle prowess, for which legendaries are certainly well known, but it takes second place to their aura. Besides, some legendaries are not as battle-competent as the pseudo-legendaries/powerhouses in the article - practically all tweleve members of the legendary trios, and arguably some others. This comparison holds in base stats (the legendary trio all have a total of 580, which is lower than 600), but even an in-depth comparison on a competitive level leads to the same conclusion, at least generally. Therefore, is it justified to attach the name pseudo-legendary to a definition that highlights the battle prowess of Pokémon that are actually stronger than some legendaries? On the other hand, Unown and Phione are indeed pseudo-legendary if the term is taken to mean a Pokémon whose aura is associated with a true legendary (Suicune in Unown's case and Manaphy in Phione's).

But I digress, as I do agree that if pseudo-legendary is more frequently used by the fandom to describe the group in question, then it should be used for the purposes of discussing a fanon term.

One last thing - I appreciate Politoed666's token of solidarity. I don't mind reversions to my own edits, especially when done by another sysop, but it isn't my idea of showing respect; it would have been better to wait a bit longer in case I had arguments to present. I only wonder why the same level of urgency was not taken to revise the contents of the article in its original format, when it obviously needed re-working. --Unown Lord 13:55, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with certain points made by Unown Lord. Perhaps the overall issue with the term "pseudo-legendary" is the usage of "legendary." There are Pokémon that are "legendary" which do have certain exclusive characteristics, and applying the term to another group has its drawbacks. While the term may certain have specific applications to the pseudo-legendary Pokémon it is difficult to draw a completely defined line, contrary to the case with legendary Pokémon. The debate over which Pokémon "qualify" has no feasible ending point, as fans will always stick to their opinion concerning which ones "deserve" to be included. Sure, we have limits on Bulbapedia but in spite of this fact, there is still such an issue, as we can see from this very page. Honestly, I have no problem with the term, despite how vague it is and the supposed difficulty adhering to its guidelines. My wife on the other hand, disagrees with its usage for many of the reasons I mention. Deviant Audio 16:01, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Title Trouble

Uhh, guys, the title says Pseudo-legendary but the article is about powerhouses... --Manga-in-a-bottle 06:01, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

It's what I was in the middle of fixing, then a million edit conflicts come up. Argh. TTEchidna^G_SDS! 06:09, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh... My bad.PokeManiac102 06:12, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I tried editing it, but then edit-conflicts. Why were you doing one at a time? I could have done it in 30 seconds. :| Glinn 06:12, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

There were a lot. And I wanted to get some in before there was in edit conflictPokeManiac102 06:14, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

hows about we make a note the page about how some people call it "powerhouse" MAGNEDETH 18:52, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Uh Uh Uh I guess.PokeManiac102 18:55, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Arcanine

Shouldn't Arcanine be classified as a powerhouse pokemon as well? Boywonder01 10:05, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Powerhouse. Not pseudo-legendary. There's a difference: Porygon-Z's a powerhouse, Alakazam's a powerhouse. Their base stats in Special Attack are higher than the base stats of any other non-legendary's Attack or Special Attack, but they aren't pseudo-legendary. They aren't the final forms of end-of-dex Pokémon, they're just final forms of Pokémon that do really well in Special Attack. TTEchidna^G_SDS! 10:35, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

But the species is called legendary, despite it isn't a legendary, so it is kind of a pseudo..., isn't it? And it has the highest sum of base-stats of all non-legendary under 600... So there would be good reasons to call it a pseudo-legendary. And by the way, if you search for the Powerhouse-Article you are redirected to this article, so either there is a need for a own article for the fanterm Powerhouse or Arcanine is truly a pseudo. --Blablubbb 06:58, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

600 stat point total a requirement?

Doesn't that seem a little subjective? I mean sure they all have that but that doesn't mean a future Pokemon of similar psuedo-legend status will have that total. Plus with these Pokemon it could just be coincidence they all have 600. Having 600 total might have been how it happened for all of them, but I just don't seem it as a requirement per se. Just that that's how it happened. Toastypk 03:34, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Not really. The psuedo-legends were most likely designed so that their stats WOULD total 600. The only likely exception would be Dragonite due to Special Attack/Defence being a single stat in Generation 1, but it was probably reworked to total 600 in Generation 2. It's hardly likely to be coincedence that their base stats all total 600. - Nebula 16:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmm... well I've never paid attention to stat totals anyway, just relative strengths. Toastypk

As I said above a base stat total of 600 is a requirement, not a coindidence. It is why they are called pseudo-legendaries, as many legendary pokemon have a bst of 600.--Hyurnat4 08:54, 11 November 2009 (UTC)--Hyurnat4 08:55, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Is it worth mentioning that Tyranitar, as of gen IV, technically has a total stats of 650?? (Due to its sand stream ability and the fact that Rock types get a x1.5 boost in S.Def in a sandstorm???) I know its not its true "Base" stats as such but even so I feel it should be mentioned PhantomCX 12:59, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Nebula, the psuedo-legends were not designed so that their stats would total 600, in fact psuedo-legends at all were not designed, it is just a made up term? felinoel 03:16, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Lucario

Couldn't Lucario fit the pseudo-legendary description? Shadow1337 23:37, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

how? its nothing like a Pseudo in any way. -- MAGNEDETH 23:42, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, for one thing pseudo-legendary by definition means false legendary. Lucario was once thought to be a legendary and has very similar stats. It even has higher stats than some of the legendaries.Shadow1337 00:23, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Pseudo-legendary is a term used to refer to any Pokémon that has a three-stage evolution line, 
two types, as well as a base stat total of 600. 

so, does Lucario fit any of those criteria? One. he has two-types. 1/3 doesnt cut it here. -- MAGNEDETH 00:40, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

But if Lucario ever gets an evolution, its evolution could possibly be a pseudo-legendary. ^Chocolate 00:45, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

No, it won't. Riolu is a baby pokemon evolves from happiness, which will likely separate it. Lucario won't get an evolution because it has too varied a moveset and too high stats.--Hyurnat4 08:58, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

That's true.Shadow1337 00:46, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

not that it wont ever happen, but be rational. do you think Lucario will seriously get an evo? rationally, no. therefor, it is not (currently) a Pseudo-legendary. btw Chocolate, id appreciate it if you didnt edit my comments. if i wanted it like that, id have made it like that in the first place. -- MAGNEDETH 00:55, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

What's more, speculating on whether an evolution of a Pokémon would be pseudo-legendary is hardly a good argument for calling Lucario one. Glinn Mgraw 11:21, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I consider Lucario a semi-legendary Pokémon. A few others i put in the group are Pokémon like Arcanine, Unown, Rotom, etc. --いぬみみ 23:14, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

they have legendary traits, but they are not legendaries. and far from pseudo-legendaries. -- MAGNEDETH 23:20, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

That's why I call them semi-legendaries; meaning they are kind of legendary. --いぬみみ 23:23, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Slaking (Pokémon)

Why is Slaking not a Psuedo? DragonTamer 04:53, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Oohh, It's not dual type, DragonTamer 04:55, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Inbalance

Too much trivia? Too little article? Can someone with experience in competitive gameplay edit it so that the trivia is not longer than the actual article? Θρtιmαtum♏_Talk|Links 12:30, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

New table

Here:

Generation I		Generation II		Generation III				Generation IV
Dragonite		Tyranitar		Salamence		Metagross		Garchomp
Dragon	Flying	Rock	Dark	Dragon	Flying	Steel	Psychic	Dragon	Ground
Evolves from
Dragonair		Pupitar		Shelgon		Metang		Gabite
Dragon		Rock	Ground	Dragon		Steel	Psychic	Dragon	Ground
Evolves from
Dratini		Larvitar		Bagon		Beldum		Gible
Dragon		Rock	Ground	Dragon		Steel	Psychic	Dragon	Ground

_*tc26_* 03:47, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Available only as their first form.

The article states that "Most pseudo-legendaries are obtainable in the wild strictly in their first form. However, Dragonair is also obtainable in the wild in most games where Dratini is (all but Pokémon Red, Green and Blue). Likewise, Pupitar is available in the wild in Crystal. Gabite is found in Victory Road in Platinum."

However, with the addition of Platinum, Gabite can be found in the wild. This means that no, only 2 out of the 5 of them are only found in their first form in the wild. I honestly don't think that something like that should be included in the article, since when was 2 out of 5 "most", or even noteworthy? You could say that all 5 of them have the colour blue on them somewhere, but is that noteworthy?

I'd have already removed it, but the page is protected. Ggled 22:09, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

There's no blue on either Dragonite or Larvitar, thus your entire logic is flawed! Good DAY, sir! :P In all seriousness though, you raise a good point. That part of the article definitely needs to be removed. --Dual 04:41, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Maybe he means a pokemon in the line has had the colour blue on them at some point? --Hyurnat4 09:01, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Kingdra

It doesn't fit the 600 total, (540 in case you were wondering) but it's dual type, it has 3 stages in the family, and it's at the end of the Pokedex. Sorry about bringing up another Pokemon Corvy 12:25, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Kingdra isn't a pseudo-legendary. All qualities must be met. —darklordtrom 20:57, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Base Stat total trivia

On all the pseudo legendaries, there is a trivia entry stating that they have the second highest base stat total behind slaking. It then goes on to say how it's tied with the other pseudo legendaries etc etc. Wouldn't it make more sense to just not have this? I mean there's already a link to the pseudo legendary page (here) at the top of the page, and it explains here that they all have the same base stat total etc. Just seems redundant to me and pointless trivia. [[Derian]] 14:23, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Stats

I don't know how you'd do it, but might it be useful to put stats on the final evolutions at some point.--Hyurnat4 09:04, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree. There is a lot of talk about stats and it would be nice to scroll up and refer to the stats of each Pokemon, rather then have to do to their individual page and scroll down. :/Tro 07:38, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Question

Should the part about 600 stat total be changed to something like "at least 600"? Yes there is nothing like that now, but if in future generations something with 630 total does show up it would be better to be prepared now then argue about it when something comes up.--Mtn otter We are the Void 14:13, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

We'll sort that out when it happens. Bulbapedia deals with the present. Thanks anyway. —darklordtrom 04:42, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I highly doubt anyone would complain about whether or not something with above 600 counts or not... felinoel 14:43, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Garchomp's location in the pokedex

Stated in the characteristics section, it says that Garchomp's evolution line is not next to any notable pokemon. However, I disagree: Before Gible is Spiritomb, a pokemon that is considered semi-legendary by fans, since it can only be caught once under special conditions in the wild. Should we reword that sentence to include this information? - unsigned comment from AuraGaurdian (talk • contribs)

Please remember to sign your posts with four tildes (~). felinoel 04:56, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Ash's Larvitar

It mentions in the trivia that Ash had only one member of the pseudo-legendary line, referencing his Gible, but at one point he had a Larvitar. Shouldn't this be mentioned in the article? --~~AuraGaurdian 17:44, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Give the source and edit it to two. felinoel 20:23, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

It's called Ash's Larvitar by the way. The trivia is actually referencing to his Larvitar but if you wanted to figure out a way of wording it you could say,"Ash is the only main character in the anime to own two different members of a pseudo-legendary family." or something along those lines. –MasterKenobi 20:36, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Gonna step in here quick and bring up that I think the reason why Gible is said to be Ash's only pseudo-legendary was because Larvitar was never technically his, he was just temporarily taking care of it or whatnot. Its article is named as such for the sake of simplicity. 梅子^❀_✿ 20:41, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

If that is the case then why does its article call it Ash's? Are we going to need to move the article if it wasn't Ash's? felinoel 03:02, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

From my previous comment on the matter:

Its article is named as such [ie. "Ash's Larvitar"] for the sake of simplicity

We can't very well call the article "the Larvitar that Ash took care of for about eight episodes but was never technically owned by him" or something. :P 梅子^❀_✿ 15:30, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

That may be true but it apparently isn't his, the page at least should not have that, Ash's current pokemon thing at the bottom or something felinoel 20:11, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

 This discussion would better serve a purpose here, so I am moving it there

Addition of Charizard

I feel that Charizard is a pseudo-legendary. I think it should be added due to it's immense power. Feel free to respond. BrianPokemonTrainer 00:42, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Did.... you even read the article? Charizard does not fufill any of the requirements. It's not even that strong. ._. ▫▫ティナ^♫★ 00:45, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Well... who decided the rules of this fluff term anyways? felinoel 02:57, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Kibago

Isn't kibago a Pseudo-legendary--KayKay|Chat to me! 03:01, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Stats don't reach +600. Ononokusu may be faster and stronger than Gyarados, but a pseudo-legendary he is not.--Black Yin Zekrom 03:08, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Dratini

Awww, who removed part of my note in the trivia about how in the anime Dratini was specifically stated to be a legendary pokemon? felinoel 03:18, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

That's like saying Arcanine should by a Pseudo-Legendary because "Legendary Pokemon" is in its title.- unsigned comment from Bluekirbystar (talk • contribs)

No I only said it should be psuedo-legendary because the anime stated it as a legendary? felinoel 14:01, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

This page is about the Pseudo-legendary classification used by fans, especially in regards to the metagame. It does NOT refer to Pokémon which are considered legendary in in-game text or other media, despite not having the rarity or strength of typical legendaries. Why can't anyone seem to understand that? --Andy^P_K^M_N 15:26, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

It was just a note for the trivia, trivia rarely is extremely on-topic with the rest of the article, that is why it gets posted in the trivia and not the article itself. felinoel 16:31, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Wrong. Trivia must be "on topic". You wouldn't add trivia about how Lance's Dragonite in Gen. I knew Barrier here. Similarly, your trivia would belong in the Legendary Pokémon article, or Dratini's article, but not this article. --Andy^P_K^M_N 16:50, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Wrong. I said extremely on-topic, the anime's classification of Dratini's status is moderately on-topic with a fluff term based on what the fans feel is Dratini's status. I never said trivia could be off-topic, I only said it didn't have to be extremely on-topic. felinoel 04:21, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Metagross is used in Gen V

Metagross is used by Lady Caitlin in the Isshu Elite Four rematch. - unsigned comment from Bluekirbystar (talk • contribs)

Ononokus

Isn't Ononokus a psuedo-legendary? It isn't near the end of the Pokedex, but then Garchomp isn't either. T a r o m o n 11:33, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

No base stats of 600 total. End of discussion.--でんのう ☢ Zえんし 11:39, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Ah, right. I don't normally bother looking at stats... T a r o m o n 08:40, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

You should look at stats; as it is one of the best indicators of which species make a group, or are version counterparts.- unsigned comment from Eriorguez (talk • contribs)

Two types really necessary?

I'd say the defining feature is the 600 BST. The page, in more than one place, describes the fact that pseudolegendaries have two types as though you couldn't, even in theory, have a pseudolegendary without it, but is that so? Obviously, all the pseudos that currently exist have two types (and we should mention that fact, don't get me wrong), but wouldn't we just adjust our definition if they (hypothetically) introduced a monotype pseudo in the sixth generation? I don't think we should "define" a pseudo as having two types; nor should we list that as one of the reasons Slaking isn't. --HeroicJay 17:25, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Good point, don't two typers have more weaknesses usually? Not a very legendary trait... felinoel 03:43, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Ulgamoth

This may be shot down, but SURELY Ulgamoth is a pseudo-legendary. It may lack the Base Stats and Second Evolution, but it's clearly intended to be in the same tier. Its final evolution receives the EV yield of a Third-Stage pokemon, it comes right after Sazandorah, just like how Salamence and Metagross are placed next to each other (Garchomp was separated from legendaries by Evolutions from previous gens). It has significant mythology connected to it, and is obtained in peculiar ways, one of which is fashioned like a Legendary Encounter. It evolves at a ridiculously high level. Hell, the concept itself is that of something that would have a cocoon stage, but missed out on it somehow. The 550 Base Stat is peculiar, but surely can be put down to it having Butterfly Dance, an obscenely powerful move. Pretty much everything points it to being a counterpart with Sazandorah as the two pseudo-legendaries of Generation 5. N-Denizen 23:30, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Nope, needs to have the stats and isn't a Dragon-type. Haxorus isn't considered Pseudo-legendary because of stats and it IS a Dragon. --Landfish7 23:34, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

They don't have to be a Dragon to be considered pseudo-legendary. But yeah, Ulgamoth has the wrong stats and it only has two stages. --ケンジのガール 00:40, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification User Kenji-girl. --Landfish7 23:33, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

I would agree on Volcarona being intended to be something special, but not the same thing as pseudo-legends. It is something new and different, even if similar. Eriorguez 13:55, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

The only problem I see then is that it's left in a weird limbo. It's not a "legendary" because it can breed, and despite being a Champion's ace, apparently not a pseudo-legendary. I think it's significant enough to classified as something surely. N-Denizen 20:12, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I would like to disagree with everyone that opposes Volcarona as a Pseudo-Legendary. Just have a look at nearly every other Bug type that came before it for instance, and you'll notice that ALL tend to have stats below 400 or very rarely reaching 500 or higher. In nearly all games before B/W it was almost like a rule or some sort, or a tradition. Perhaps Volcarona lives up to this tradition even with B/W's upgrade to Bug types. As a Bug type, it would not be able to have as high of stats as other types if it followed this old tradition, so that would explain Volcarona's BST of 550 instead of 600. Another possible explaination is probably just an excuse to make it have a lower BST than Genesect. The big seal to all this is that Alder uses Volcarona as his main Pokemon. Why would it be used as his main if it wasn't a Pseudo-Legendary? Why just have something random instead of a Psuedo-legendary or even a Legendary? It all starts to make sense when you think about it. Volcarona, though having a lower BST than the other Pseudo-Legends, still has the exact same kind of power you'd expect from one due to it's gargantuan stats compared to other Bug types. Even Genesect feels very weak in comparison to Volcarona, as well as giving Tyranitar and Metagross something to fear and respect at the same time. So the point of all of this is, it would seem reasonable to accept Volcarona as a Pseudo-Legend due to past treatment of Bug types in general. Besides, doesn't it seem more like a fan idea to have them required to have a BST of 600 and be a 3 stage line? What if GF has their own requirements to the idea and simply design them as they please? For a Bug type to fill this role, all of this would make alot of sense. Why simply believe a Pseudo-Legend requires those things only because of past tradition from Gen I-IV? Wouldn't it be fair for a Bug type Pseudo-Legend to exist yet still follow the tradition of Bug types having lower Base stats than others? Shiramu Kuromu 20:36, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Pseudo-legendary is a fan term, so fans determine the requirements. It is based on a pattern we as fans have detected in each generation? Being "strong" has nothing to do with being pseudo-legendary (other than that pseudo-legendary requires a 600 BST). Champion usage does not make something pseudo-legendary, even if it is their primary Pokémon. Alder doesn't use a legendary Pokémon because they are restricted to battle facility Trainers and storyline events. They did not fit it into their previous pattern. Anything that breaks the mold is not bending the pattern, but rejecting it. What does Volcarona have in common with actual pseudo-legendary Pokémon? If we let Volcarona in, then the definition of pseudo-legendary becomes "has two types, needs 1,250,000 exp to get to level 100". Now, if you look at this list of Pokémon in that experience group and pick out all the dual typed Pokémon, excluding legendary Pokémon, you can see just how many there are. To name a few, Abomasnow, Aggron, Sharpedo, Lanturn. And that is only a few of them. --SnorlaxMonster 11:49, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Now you're being just biased about all this. Why do they all need BSTs of 600? Can't Volcarona be the exception due to it's Bug typing? Even if Dual typed and Slow exp group were the only requirements now, it would all still be the same, since Volcarona would be the only Pseudo-Legend that doesn't fill the previous 600 BST requirement. All you seem to be trying to do is sticking too much to tradition, because honestly, I thought you'd stick with the 1st to 4th gen's Pseudo-Legend tradition of Attack being the highest stat when it was revealed Hydreigon's highest was Special Attack instead. Due to that, I thought everybody would be biased with even it due to favoring Special Attack instead. Volcarona, when compared to Aggron of Flygon, makes far more sense as a Pseudo-Legendary. Honestly, I think of Pseudo-Legendaries having the highest BST of all non-legendaries out of one of their types. Dragonite, Salamence, Garchomp, and Hydreigon have the highest Base Stat total of all non-legendary Dragon types, Tyranitar has the highest of all Non-legendary Rock types, and the highest for Dark types along with Hydreigon. Metagross has the highest out of all Non-legendary Steel and Psychic types. Volcarona has the highest of all Non-legendary Bug types. It all makes sense when you consider how a Pseudo-Legendary could be designed with that in mind. Shiramu Kuromu 21:56, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

In other words, think of it this way:

-Non-legendary.

-Evolves atleast once.

-Highest Base Stat total of atleast one of their types.

-Dual typed.

-Slow Experience group.

With this in mind, ONLY Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamence, Metagross, Garchomp, Hydreigon, and Volcarona fit all four of these requirements. Arcanine and Slaking don't have two types, and Archeops isn't in the right Exp group and isn't the highest of either of it's types. So there you have it, problem solved. Shiramu Kuromu 22:18, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

So what you're saying is that we should change the currently accepted definition of Pseudo-legendary just because you want Volcarona to be one. Not gonna happen.

Besides, Ghetsis is the last opponent in the story, and he uses a Hydreigon, but not a Volcarona. Not that final opponent usage matters, as Tyranitar was first used by Blue in FR/LG and was still considered a Pseudo-legendary in Gen II. - Blazios _talk 09:29, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

ALDER is the last, not Ghetsis man. ALDER uses VOLCARONA, not Hydreigon. Shiramu Kuromu 17:15, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

The main story ends with Ghetsis, not Alder. Alder is postgame. - Blazios _talk 17:56, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

METAGROSS

In BW you can find wild Metang and metagross in Giant Casm. So it is'nt really a Pseudo-Legandary. --Nazirbashir 11:04, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

And you can find wild Dragonair and Dragonite near the Dragonsprial Tower. What does not being found in the wild have to do with being a pseudo legendary? --ケンジのガール 11:13, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Did anyone mention...

that ALL Pseudo-Legendaries have immunities? It's true you know.

It was in the trivia section, I swear...must've been removed for some reason (wtf deletionists) Frugali 09:08, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

: Kind of pointless to mention because they are not the only one with immunities. Lots of Pokemon have immunities to one type or another. Frozen Fennec

Coincidences.

Didn't want to start an edit war, so I'm just going to post here to see what others think. So far as i know, and as far as I believe the fandom is concerned, the only defining traits of a pseudo legend are that they have a base stat total of 600 and that they evolve. I myself was unaware that they all need 1.25 million experience points to hit level 100. Does anyone else think that that fact in the definition in the opening paragraph is extraneous? RB Golbat 15:20, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Simply put, no. Espially if all six of them have that trait. Truthseeker4449 02:05, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Let's face it, you ask anyone who plays Pokemon, and they'll give you the 600 BST Evolution definition. Did Nintendo give them all the same amount of experience at level 100 on purpose? Probably. Is that how people define Pseudo Legendary? No. And since this page is a fan definition, then it should use what most people refer to it as. RB Golbat 02:15, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Many Pokémon need 1.25 Million exp to get to level 100, but they're not classed as Pseudo legendary (for obvius reasons such as Base stat=/=600). So I agree with RB, remove it.--ForceFire 02:22, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

It's been a week since I last asked, and it's a 1-1 split by people who aren't me. So here is a one week bump to try to solicit opinions, before seeing that no one else cares and changing it back to the way i changed it. RB Golbat 14:50, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Slaking

I am aware that an argument has already been brought up to add Slaking to the list. I think it should be added, for the following reasons. From what I understand, the definition here of a Pseudo-Legendary is (a) it can't be legendary. (b) It must evolve twice. It is not part of the definition that all of them must be dual typed, nor that they must have an immunity. This is simply a trait that all of the current members of the list happen to share. The third part of the current definition is that all of them must have exactly 600 BST. This is the part I don't understand. I can understand why it would be nice to have a requirement for at least 600, but why does it have to be exact? This brings us to Slaking. It has the highest base stats of any non-legendary. It evolves twice. Why should it be denied the position of being pseudo-legendary for being too powerful? Pseudo-legendary means "resembling a legendary", and legendaries are supposed to be powerful. There are 16 legendaries with a BST over 600, and 11 even higher than Slaking's. In terms of its lack of a second type, 22 out of 47 legendaries are single-typed. Slaking's lack of a second type definitely should not exclude it from being a pseudo-legendary. Tk3141 22:19, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Slaking, though not pseudo-legendary, has the highest base stats of all non-legendary Pokémon and one immunity, to the Ghost-type. However, it lacks some factors: a base-stat total of 600 and a secondary type. Slaking is also hindered by its ability, Truant, which is likely the reason for its high stats. From this page. However I would say the biggest reason it is not on here is because Truant truly cripples any astounding power it has. The only time to experience its true full potential is in a double battle with a Pokemon that uses Skill Swap on it so it can attack every turn rather than half the turns. Frozen Fennec 22:24, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

As I mentioned above, however, I don't think that a secondary type or an exact BST should be part of the definition. Yes, Truant does cripple Slaking, but it is technically speculation which says that this is the reason for its high stats. It is a non-legendary that has an even higher BST than any others on the list. Tk3141 02:22, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

It is a fandom-defined term. This is the definition. We only report was it, not make it the way it is. The fandom says BST must equal 600, so Slaking is not pseudo-legendary. --SnorlaxMonster 12:28, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Might we want to review this definition, though? If we want the list to consist of those who are "like legendaries", we shouldn't restrict the list to dual types, as almost half of legendaries are single-typed. Similarly, less than half of legendaries have a BST of exactly 600. "The fandom" is, in my opinion, a vague term; it can't be that everybody agrees on the same point. Tk3141 16:22, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

This page is a description of a fan term which describes all Pokémon which have, thus far, followed a specific pattern. Until the fans choose to recognize a Pokémon which Game Freak has made defy the pattern, no changes to the definition should be needed.--MisterE13 00:21, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Pseudo-legendary, while it does mean "like legendary", it is not a group that includes all Pokémon that are similar to legendary Pokémon, it is a group of Pokémon that follow a certain pattern (which causes them to be powerful). "The fandom" refers to the general fan consensus; not everybody agrees, but most people concede to this definition. --SnorlaxMonster 06:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

So seriously, what's the definition?

As I pointed out above (and nearly no one responded), if the sixth gen introduces a non-legendary Pokemon with a 600 BST with only one type will we say that it's not pseudolegendary, or will we just change the definition of what a psuedolegendary is? Why is having two types or a specific level-up curve considered a necessary condition to being a pseudolegendary rather than just a trait all of the current ones happen to have? Indeed, given that you can completely remove either restriction or both of them and not change the list of pseudolegendary Pokemon at all (you can't do so with the 600 BST or the fact that they come from evolutionary families), I'd say Occam's Razor would slice away those unnecessary conditions. --HeroicJay 07:09, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

PS. I'd like to point out that the opening paragraph used to mention that all pseudos had Attack as their highest stat, though it wisely did not include that as a part of the definition of what makes a pseudo a pseudo. Now it doesn't say that any more. Just sayin'. --HeroicJay 07:26, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

The pseudolegendaries are variations on a theme. The dual types and stats are part of that theme. Single type would suggest that there's an underlying difference. Experience group makes them hard to raise, suggesting that they're all very similar. Like PP of moves, experience group is an indicator of the similarity of Pokemon. If Nintendo feel the need to make it a lower experience group, that makes it easier to raise, suggesting that there are underlying differences - the Pokemon are not considered equal. Stats like that aren't just a random choice. Werdnae (talk) 20:01, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I can't say I agree. We can say that the two types and the level-up curve are traits they all have, at present, but how is it part of the definition? If you remove those restrictions, the number of pseudolegendary Pokemon remains six, so those restrictions aren't helping with the definition and just unnecessarily restrict possible future psuedolegendaries. I was asked to provide a source that they're not necessary. Where's the source that they are? I mean, let's say, totally hypothetically, that one made a page called "Pikachu Clones" back in the fourth gen, discussing Pokemon such as Pichu, Plusle, Minun, and Pachirisu. (The usefulness of such a page isn't the point; let's just say that one existed.) At the time, they decided to define the Pokemon as "Cute mono-Electric-type Pokemon that have a resemblence to Pikachu. Aside from Pichu and Pikachu, none of the Pikachu clones evolve." Are you to say that, when the fifth gen came out, this hypothetical page would have been wrong to alter its definition and include Emolga? If so, why? And if not, then why did the definition need to include the "mono-" part of it at all if it's unnecessarily limiting and so easily discarded? --HeroicJay 20:57, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I personally don't think having two types should be part of the definition; I don't see a pure Dragon-type pseudo legendary Pokemon being that unlikely. I did a quick search, and I couldn't find any other non-forum giving a definition of pseudo-legendary Pokemon, so there is nothing stating either way. However, I would say experience group is just as important as BST. --SnorlaxMonster 12:42, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

No, I still stand against it. I'm being treated like I'm trying to redefine which Pokemon are pseudolegendary, and, yes, I do see that others have tried. But I'm not. Removing these two restrictions does nothing. It's Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamence, Metagross, Garchomp, and Hydreigon now. It'll be Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamence, Metagross, Garchomp, and Hydreigon if you remove those restrictions.

Who made the call that they're necessary to the definition? I've been asked to source that they're not. Why must I prove the negative? It's the positive case that requires proof! Should I add a [citation needed] to the definition?

If you were to remove the 600 BST part of the defintion, and still keep everything else, you'd add things like Aggron and Rhyperior to the list, so we can't do that.

The "three-stage evolutionary family" thing comes off to me as a roundabout way of saying "not legendary", but I'm fine with it since legendary status can be arguable (the Legendary page on this very wiki is unsure on Phione, and even though I strongly disagree, I've even seen modern fans try to argue Rotom's legendary status.) And without it, Jirachi and Landorus are brought into the list of "pseudolegendaries", so obviously that restriction is necessary, regardless of the wording.

But why type combos? Why experience groups? Removing them changes what? Is there a 600-BST three-stage mono-type family in the medium-slow group that is clearly not pseudolegendary I'm somehow unfamiliar with? (Well, Slaking has a 670 BST and three stages and is a monotype, though he is in the Slow group, but... Truant is all it takes to convince me he's not a proper pseudolegendary. And he's the closest there is, besides the obvious six!)

As I said, if you were to put on the side (in Trivia or something) that all of them, at present, are dualtypes in the Slow experience group, you wouldn't see me argue - it's true, after all. But to put it in the definition, as if to say "Pokémon without these traits can't be pseudolegendary"... I jusst don't see it. --HeroicJay 18:31, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Thing is, pseudo-legendary is the observation of a pattern and nothing more. When they all fit it and it is likely that they will continue fitting a condition, it should be treated as part of the definition. No, removing the experience group condition does not remove anything, but that condition is really for restricting what we may get next generation. --SnorlaxMonster 15:02, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Next generation, if we get a Pokemon with a BST of 600 who is at the top of a three-stage evolution family in the medium-slow experience group instead of slow, and it doesn't have any major negative traits like Truant, do you really think the fandom isn't going to call it a pseudo-legendary? Do you honestly believe most of the fandom - who defined the term - even cares about experience curves that much? And can you provide a source on it? --HeroicJay 22:41, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

There is no source (BP was the only fansite I could find that actually defined pseudo-legendary outside of "means Dragonite, Tyranitar, Metagross, Garchomp, Hydreigon"), because GF has never officially mentioned the pattern anywhere, but the pattern is obvious enough that the fandom has noticed it. Knowing the fandom—who tried and push Volcarona and Haxorus into being pseudo-legendary—there will certainly be many people who think it should be. However, it won't truly be one. I don't see that ever happening though, as experience group is part of the pattern. Even if something had a BST of 600, three-stage evolutionary family and medium-slow experience group but had Truant, it would still be pseudo-legendary. --SnorlaxMonster 15:18, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Isn't that a contradiction? (Did you get your experience groups confused?) And if something can be pseudolegendary with Truant, then Slaking should definitely count, since his stats are way higher than the existing pseudolegendaries (NOTE: I do not consider Slaking a pseudolegendary, I'm just saying that the logic doesn't flow.) --HeroicJay 18:21, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Truant is irrelevant; its BST is not 600, so it does not fit the pattern. And yes, I meant slow experience group (I meant to check that before I saved). --SnorlaxMonster 12:31, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I would argue that, though it's not a very specific or encyclopedic definition, a pseudo-legendary Pokemon would be a non-legendary Pokemon as strong, stat-wise, as legendaries. By that simple definition, Slaking easily fits the bill... or, rather, he would, except Truant limits his strength. (Well, Regigigas is similarly hindered, but all the same...) Now that said, all pseudos that exist have 600; there's no argument here and it works to say it. But the rest of it is redundant, adds nothing to the definition, and is something we'll just have to retcon away the moment GameFreak decides to contradict it.

BTW, Does anyone else at all have any input? Anyone? I've notived that a lot of Bulbapedia discussions go nowhere fast; at best, they wind up arguments between two or three users, like, say, this one. --HeroicJay 22:59, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

If you ask any fan what they define psuedo legendary as, they would say a three stage evolution line with a 600 BST in the final stage. Two types and experience are not what you would get with most fans definition. Since this is a fandom term, we should use the definition most fans use. RB Golbat (talk) 21:47, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Pesudo-legendary is a fan term to describe an intentional pattern. Experience group is part of this part of the pattern. Therefore, it should be considered part of the definition. --SnorlaxMonster 03:06, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

It's part of the "pattern" that people only learn about when they read this page. Regardless of if it's a pattern or not, it's not what the fandom defined definition is. RB Golbat (talk) 03:15, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

(unindenting) Here is one example of the term being define without the dual typing or the experience mentioned. I'm sure I can find more online later when not at work. RB Golbat (talk) 10:47, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Champion Iris with Hydreigon

You should add that. Chomper4 (talk) 00:36, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Pseudo-Pseudo-Legendary

Maybe we should have a pseudo-pseudo legendary page or section for all the almost pseudo-legendary pokemon (That don't quite fit the requirements but are still considered near-legendary pokemon. This is just after reading the whole talk page about the controversy... - unsigned comment from Yor2cool (talk • contribs)

That would result in debates over what counts as almost fitting the category. The definition debates all assume the same Pokémon as already part of the group. There are no Pokémon that are debatably pseudo-legendary Pokémon. --SnorlaxMonster 12:49, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Something unique about Metagross

Should it be noted that Metagross is the only Pseudo who doesn't resist, but in fact has a weakness to, fire? DragonMasterNeal (talk) 19:10, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Ability capitalization

A user with permission could change "ability" to "Ability" in the Tyranitar section. Yvnr (talk) 19:01, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Seriously?

Why is this page protected? I wanted to add something to Others. Stickipedia (talk) 21:51, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

As the protection log notes: "As this is a subject of constant debate, editing is restricted. Requests can be made on the talk page." - Kogoro - Talk to me - 21:57, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Tyranitar as main Pokemon of an NPC trainer

• "Only pseudo-legendary Pokémon that is not the main Pokémon of a major boss at the end of the game it was introduced in. However, Tyranitar was used by Blue in Pokémon FireRed and LeafGreen Versions, but only in his rematch."

Tyranitar (as a Shadow Pokémon) was also Evice's main Pokémon, in the final battle of Pokémon Colosseum. I think this is an interesting addition we can make to that note. --Stratelier 05:18, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Minor RFEs

Playing the Grammar Nazi card....

Under the Metagross section, there is this line:

"This is likely why Metagross is the only pseudo-legendary Pokémon not to be used by Lance in any game, as he prefers Dragon-type and draconian Pokémon."

The correct word is draconic; the word 'draconian' means 'severely harsh or strict'.

And under Garchomp's section:

"It compliments these attributes with it's Ground typing,"

Wrong 'its', no apostrophe required. And it should probably use complement instead of compliment.

--Stratelier 05:29, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Use by gym leaders

Should we add some of the gym leaders (in their various types of rematches and the PWT) as users of the pseudo-legendaries, and possibly the Elite Four? For example, Brock with Tyranitar and Giovanni and Clair with Garchomp. --Darthrai (talk) 01:28, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Pokémon Pages

I'm bringing this up here because it seems silly to go to each individual page to say it... Should the Pokémon's actual pages really say that they're "pseudo-legendary Pokémon" up at the top? I mean, by definition it is a fan term, so I don't think it belongs there with their typing and evolutionary patterns. Maybe in their trivia sections, but not there. It looks very unprofessional to stick a fan-term at the top of the pages of these Pokémon, otherwise you might as well change Snivy's opening text to "Snivy (fannon: Smugleaf)". It's just as ridiculous. Me, Hurray! (talk) 14:11, 26 July 2013 (UTC) Actually, a better comparison would be changing all of Eevee's evolutionary family pages to say "X is a Y-type Eeveelution". What I'm saying is, I don't think fan terminology belongs there. Me, Hurray! (talk) 14:14, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Eeveelution has actually became canon term (first used in Stadium 2 guide, then later in TCG Theme Deck... plus in-game in Shadows of Almia). Marked +-+-+ (talk) 14:22, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Fine, make that edit then, but that's not my point. "Pseudo-legendary" is not an official term, its a fan term. This is not Smogon, this is an encyclopaedia. Me, Hurray! (talk) 14:08, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit request

Since this page seems to be under indefinite protection, I'm forced to request here instead of waiting out the protection. There are three instances of the word typing being incorrectly used as a noun, which you can find by CTRL+F. Can these please be changed to simply type? Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 17:43, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Metagross in Gen III

I think it is worth mentioning that Metagross is the only pseudo-legendary that cannot be obtain in the generation it was released in, before defeating the elite four. Benjabby (talk) 10:19, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

The same goes for Tyranitar.--電禅Den Zen 10:24, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Trivia

Should it be added that only Tyranitar and Metagross aren't partially dragon-type? Nutter Butter (talk) 20:23, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

It is there.--電禅Den Zen 20:48, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Goodra

So, if Goodra is to be included, it would mean A) Goodra is the first pure type, B) Goodra has the highest Sp.Def./the only 1 with Sp.Def. its highest stat/has the lowest Att. C) Dragonite is no longer the only pseudo portrayed as friendly, D) Hydreigon is no longer the only pseudo with a type immunity via ability (Goodra's Sap Sipper), E) Goodra is the only pseudo who is not necessarily immune to a type (since it has 2 other abilities), F) Goodra is the only pseudo with additional evolutionary conditions, G) Goodra is the only pseudo whose mid-stage is available in its debut games. Anything else? --Mr. Bonding (talk) 01:34, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

"Dragonite is no longer the only pseudo portrayed as friendly"

Wait what? I'm going to need explanation for this one. Benjabby (talk) 20:00, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Dragonite-Guides crews of shipwrecks to shore, kindhearted. Goodra-Hugs trainer. RespectThePixel (talk) 00:51, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

There are seven pseudo-legendaries now

enough said. ~--Dapianoman (talk) 01:45, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Users

Goodra is also used by Shauna in X&Y. Just a small thing that I would add if I could :L Benjabby (talk) 19:44, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

It's already in the article. ----samm :D 19:55, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Goodra Description

Shall I make the description for Goodra or is someone else assigned to it? RespectThePixel (talk) 00:55, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Images for Goomy and Sligoo on the chart

You messed it up. Goomy's image is where Sliggoo's should be and vice versa. StongRadd (talk) 03:01, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Mega Evolutions

Should it be noted that Tyranitar and Garchomp both receive Mega Evolutions in Gen VI?--Darkmaster (talk) 04:58, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Counting error

With the addition of Goodra, there are now seven pseudo-legendary Pokemon, not 6. pikalax 22:44, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Mistaken

Pseudo-legendary is a fanmade term, and the definition of pseudo-legendary varies from fan to fan. So why does it say Pokémon like Flygon, Aggron, Kingdra, et cetera are mistaken for pseudo-legendaries? While they may not be pseudo-legendaries in one fan's terms, Garchomp may not be pseudo-legendary in another fan's terms. Bill Gates (talk) 21:53, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

They are not pseudo-legendary by the definition agreed upon by Bulbapedia and metagame websites. Individual people who don't bother to look into things like stats may mistakenly think that "pseudo-legendary" is just a term that means nearly or almost legendary, when it is actually a very specific term for a very specific kind of Pokemon. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 21:57, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Most metagame websites don't list Goodra as pseudo-legendary. Bill Gates (talk) 17:49, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

But according to Bulbapedia's description of a pseudo-legendary, and unless I am very mistaken, this wiki is indeed Bulbapedia, it is a pseudo-legendary, which is why it's on the page. ☆The Solar Dragon☆ 17:51, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Bulbapedia's description is not the only description out there, and my point is no Pokémon can be "mistaken" for a pseudo-legendary. Bill Gates (talk) 01:14, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but this is Bulbapedia, that is the description that Bulbapedia has settled on for what a pseudo legendary is and so that is why Goodra is on the list. There are other definitions out there with some of those other Pokémon coming into them, which is why, by Bulbapedia's definition, they are mistaken. ☆The Solar Dragon☆ 22:45, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Pseudo-legendary is a fan term to describe an existing pattern. Goodra fits this pattern, so it is pseudo-legendary. --SnorlaxMonster 03:18, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

mainly shared weakness?

I've noticed every single pseudo-legendary has the fairy weakness besides metagross. That could be something to consider. - unsigned comment from Nerdandrew (talk • contribs)

Sure, notable trivia if all of them had the weakness. However, "All but one" is not notable trivia. ☆The Solar Dragon☆ 16:43, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

I think it can be added to the "Individual characteristics" section, though.--電禅Den Zen 16:51, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Information about Goodra

Can admins add information about Goodra since the page is locked, thank you and remember it is the only pseudo-legendary to have one type: Dragon (which it usually had). Cinday123 (talk) 04:35, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

"All pseudo-legendary Pokémon have appeared in the anime"

Which isn't true, now that we have Goodra with Gen VI. Alteration, maybe? -- Pringles 05:05, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

By the end of any given generation, all Pokemon (regardless of pseudo-legendary status) have appeared in the anime except Porygon2 and Porygon-Z, so I feel like saying that on this page is unnecessary altogether. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 05:12, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Sprites into artwork

Can any admin turn these sprites into artwork since the page is protected. Cinday123 (talk) 05:21, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Admins, since we're in Generation VI, could you turn sprites into artwork so that is my commet above. And turn Goodra's Dream World artwork into a Sugimori artwork. Cinday123 (talk) 05:03, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, one down, six to go, can you turn Dragonite, Tyraniter, Salamence, Metagross, Garchomp and Hydreigon's sprites into artwork? Cinday123 (talk) 05:33, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Only pseudo-legendary Pokémon to not have any 4× weaknesses.

This is false. With the introduction of Goodra, Metagross is no longer the only pseudo-legendary with 4x weaknesses. Goodra has only one type, and therefore can't have any 4x weakness. I would edit this myself, but I can't. Svolur (talk) 04:23, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Error regarding Sliggoo

"Pseudo-legendary Pokémon are obtainable in the wild strictly in their first form for the first paired games of their generation." This is not true since in X/Y there are wild Sliggoo. Shepeedy (talk) 12:59, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

"Due to having the same typing as Dragonite, Salamence differs itself by being entirely focused on attacking prowess. It's stats are high in Attack, Special Attack, and Speed, while comparatively low in both Defense stats." Please correct that "it's" and ban whoever wrote it. Shepeedy (talk) 23:07, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Another typo on the page: "psuedo-legendary". --Raijinili (talk) 09:10, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

A few changes...

1. (3.2.8 Other) Dragonite and Tyranitar's Special Defenses of 100 pale in comparison to Goodra's 150.

2. (3.3 Users) Last I checked, Shauna is neither an Elite 4 member nor a Champion, and so should probably be included in the second list (which, by the way, already has more than three examples, with two of them being outside of Diamond, Pearl and Platinum).

3. (4 In the anime) "newly introduced" should be changed to "newly-introduced".

Thanks. -- EnosShayrem_talk 02:35, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

On that last one — it's incorrect to use a hyphen after a -ly word, per AP style guidelines. I quote from the AP Stylebook 2012, page 301 of the punctuation guide, under the entry on hyphens: "COMPOUND MODIFIERS: When a compound modifier — two or more words that express as single concept — precedes a noun, use hyphens to link all the words in the compound except the adverb very and all adverbs that end in -ly." Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 02:53, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Ah! You learn something new every day. Also, a few more things:

4. (2 Characteristics) That second paragraph needs rewriting; I propose: "The base stages of pseudo-legendary Pokémon have base stat totals of 300, while their first evolutions have base stat totals of 420, excluding Pupitar and Gabite, which have 410. In general, pseudo-legendary Pokémon have Attack as their highest stat. This is not the case with Hydreigon and Goodra, which have Special Attack and Special Defense as their highest stats, respectively."

5. (3.2.1 Dragonite) The last sentence should be removed, what with the very affectionate, and might I add adorable, Goodra.

6. (3.3 Users) It should be somehow mentioned that in Black and White 2's Challenge Mode, Caitlin's use of Metagross extends to her first battle.

-- EnosShayrem_talk 02:55, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Did 5 and 6. I have removed the entire "Characteristics" section because it was just making statements that kept building up more and more exceptions. 1 was dealt with ages ago. --SnorlaxMonster 02:37, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Goomy line's catch rate

It was confirmed that the Goomy line's catch rate is 20, not 45, will admins add information about the catch rates because this line and the Beldum line do not have a catch rate of 45. --Cinday123 (Talk) 02:56, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Oh sorry, we don't know the Goomy line's catch rate until the catch rates of Kalos Pokémon are from the official sources, my bad. --Cinday123 (Talk) 07:08, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Spelling and the Goomy line

Because Legendary Pokémon are spelled as 'legendary', could someone change it to 'Legendary' according to a user's Pokémon Syntax? Also, the Goomy line are not next to the Legendary Pokémon and Sliggoo doesn't have a BST of 420, which instead had a BST of 452. --Cinday123 (Talk) 07:08, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm happy to leave "psuedo-legendary" as that, since it's a fan term and doesn't necessarily have to fit the same capitalization standard as "Legendary Pokémon". This is mainly because I don't feel like going through and doing all the relinking though—it would be way easier conceptually if it was written as "pseudo-Legendary". --SnorlaxMonster 02:37, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Additional fact

Under the list of exceptions to the Elite Four and Champions being the only people to use pseudo-legendaries, can someone add that Roark uses a Tyranitar during the rematches at the Battleground in Platinum? AGGRON989 22:21, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

That whole exceptions section was meant to be for only the three Trainers in DPPt that used pseudo-legendaries, but it just kept building up with examples from other games. I've removed it, since it is no longer accurate. --SnorlaxMonster 02:37, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Pokédex placement

"With the exception of the Garchomp and Hydreigon evolutionary lines, pseudo-legendary Pokémon are usually situated adjacent to the legendary trios in the Pokédexes of their respective generations"

This line actually isn't correct anymore, the Goodra line is next to Karrablast and Quagsire in regional, with Klefki in national. And since it's only one 4/7 of the Pokémon, I don't think it's really notable anymore. -EVsandIVsaurs 15:31, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Correct. Pikachu Bros. (talk) 16:56, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

I have removed the entire "Characteristics" section because it was just making statements that kept building up more and more exceptions. --SnorlaxMonster 02:37, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

This Page Should Be Deleted

*Rolls Eyes* This is a wiki, and wikis deal in factual information, not user-created lists and categories... By this logic, every wiki for game that have mod support should have an individual page for every user-created mod. I don't see a legitimate reason as to why this page should exist, as it in no way fits in with the content template every page on Bulbapedia is based off of... Ulithium Dragon (talk) 21:59, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

See What???. Pikachu Bros. (talk) 22:04, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

This page desribes a clear pattern of Pokémon that Game Freak has put into the game. We just use he fan name to describe them, because there is no official one. --SnorlaxMonster 02:37, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Does three stage evolution really matters?

I got a doubt, does three stage evolution really matters, because many pokemon like heracross has a base stat of 600 and is a dual Bug/Fighting type. Its signature move Megahorn is the most powerful bug type move, and it's movepool contains some powerful moves like Earthquack and Focuspunch with its base stat comes par with legendary pokemon and even has 4x damage on celebi. Tgage (talk) 12:59, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes it does, it is a vital part of the definition. By the same logic, you could ask if the 600 base stat total really matters.--電禅Den Zen 13:12, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Dragonite's height

I saw that Tyranitar and Goodra are not the tallest non-Mega Evolved pseudo-legendary Pokémon, Dragonite is according to its height, could someone change it now? --Cinday123 (Talk) 04:17, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Fixed. --SnorlaxMonster 08:00, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Miss a trainer

Colress had a Metagross in his final match in Plasma Frigate --HoopsterJohn (talk) 21:22, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

salamence

salamence is used by iris during rematches--Just a simple edit (talk) 20:13, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Minor fix - Bad wikilink on Garchomp

Should instead link to the subheading which Garchomp is under; http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/List_of_Pok%C3%A9mon_with_gender_differences#Generation_IV_Pok.C3.A9mon instead of just a link to the page.- unsigned comment from Pokepro97 (talk • contribs)

Edit request

In Metagross's section under individual characteristics, it says that Metagross is the only pseudo-legendary Pokemon to not be used by Lance, but this isn't the case since Goodra has been introduced (as far as I know). Could someone remove or edit that line? slimey01 18:26, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Base Stat Averages

As far as I'm concerned, the current base stat averages for this page are outdated. They do not take Goodra's stats into account, only averaging the Base stats of all pseudo-legendaries up to Hydreigon. From my calculations, the Base Stats averages (with Goodra's base stats into account) currently are an average HP stat of 93.71, an average Attack of 127.57, an average Defense of 95.71, an average Special Attack of 102.14, an average Special Defense of 99.29, and an average Speed of 84.43. If someone could update the Base Stat averages with these that would be neat. AmourShipper (talk) 03:07, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

"A weaknesses"...?

In the Metagross subsection, one of the sentences says: "Only pseudo-legendary Pokémon to not have a weaknesses(Note the "es" at the end of "Weakness") to Fairy-type moves."

"a weaknesses" sounds incorrect, and it must be "a weakness". Thanks! --HoennLove200 (talk) 16:01, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Hydreigon

Hydreigon is confirmed to have a double weakness to Fairy, unlike other psuedo-legendaries(Please note the Metagross is not weak to Fairy). --HoennLove200 (talk) 16:43, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Base Stat Comparison

Perhaps we could have a chart showing a comparison of their base stats like the Legendary pages and others have? Drake Clawfang (talk) 05:34, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Guess no? Drake Clawfang (talk) 18:31, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

I think it's a decent idea, although it would require the creation of a new template. Currently we have {{fivepokemonstats}} and {{Groupstats/8}}, but nothing for 7. --SnorlaxMonster 19:12, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, it'll be easy to make. 8 started as 7 and was moved and modified for 8 with Sylveon's release. I'll grab the coding from a previous revision and take care of it now. Drake Clawfang (talk) 19:17, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, my memory is crap, not how it went at all. Still, looks like we did have Template:Groupstats/7 at one time. Can we restore that? Drake Clawfang (talk) 19:18, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Oh, didn't even realize it used to be a thing. I should have, since I was involved in it, but oh well. --SnorlaxMonster 12:18, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Goodra

Following the evolution of Ash's Sliggoo, the anime section is going to need updating. I'd do it myself but the page is protected. -_{Sneaking from page to page... It's the page-editing purple ghost...} Gengarzilla! 18:45, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

--PKMNAdventurer (talk) 17:25, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Done. If you have any suggestions on better wording, let me know.--ForceFire 03:16, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Not to be nitpicky, but I think the sentence at the beginning of the anime section also needs to have the part about Goodra removed from it. AGGRON989 03:20, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Rotating pictures for "In the anime" section

Goodra in the anime

Can someone update the picture in the anime section so it would rotate between all of the Psudo-legendary Pokémon instead of only showing one of them, like so?

--PKMNAdventurer (talk) 21:59, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Rotating images are bad. Readers have no idea that the image rotates. Either stick them all in a gallery, or just pick one. --SnorlaxMonster 04:53, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Stats

The base stat averages don't take into account Goodra's stats. The stat averages should be updated to:
HP: 93.71
Attack: 124.71
Defense: 95.71
Sp. Atk: 102.14
Sp. Def: 99.29
Speed: 84.43
Lillihaxo (talk) 08:49, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Kalos Dex

The Metagross line is the only one not in the Kalos Dex. SirOni (talk) 23:25, 28 October 2015 (UTC)SirOni

Edit request for definition of "pseudo-legendary"

"Pseudo-legendary Pokémon (Japanese: 擬似伝説 pseudo-legendary) is a fan term commonly used to refer to any Pokémon that has a three-stage evolution line, 1,250,000 experience at level 100, and a base stat total of exactly 600. The term originates from the prefix pseudo-, which means "false". Pseudo-legendary Pokémon are often more powerful than many other non-Legendary Pokémon due to their high base stats.

Other variations of the definition omit the need to have 1,250,000 experience at level 100."

should become

"Pseudo-legendary Pokémon (Japanese: 擬似伝説 pseudo-legendary) is a fan term commonly used to refer to any Pokémon that is not in the Undiscovered Egg Group and has a base stat total of exactly 600. Currently, all pseudo-legendary Pokémon have exactly two pre-evolutions which can only evolve by leveling up past a certain level and 1,250,000 experience at level 100. The term originates from the prefix pseudo-, which means "false". Pseudo-legendary Pokémon are often more powerful than many other non-Legendary Pokémon due to their high base stats."

The BST of 600 matters because anything less would make it less "legendary". Legendary Pokemon are set apart by their lack of evolutionary relatives, inability to breed, and high stats. As long as a Pokemon meets the latter requirement and not the former two, wouldn't it make sense for it to be a pseudo-legendary Pokemon?

sumwun (talk) 23:18, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

It's fine as it is.

No, it's not okay for it to only have "high stats". Psuedo-legendaries were originally (strong) Pokemon who came between legitimate Legendary Pokemon in the Pokedex but were not Legendaries themselves. The definition of "psuedo-legendary" is molded to conform to the strong pattern that those Pokemon showed: three stages, BST 600, slow experience.

If you want a broader definition, you need a different term. You simply can't just ignore "pseudo-legendary"'s history/baggage and change it completely. Tiddlywinks (talk) 23:57, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

So if they introduced a Pokemon that met my definition but not the one on the article, people wouldn't consider it pseudo-legendary, even if it just had a fluctuating growth rate instead of a slow one? sumwun (talk) 02:48, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

It's not impossible that some day we could change our minds in some way. For now, there's no apparent reason for us to. Tiddlywinks (talk) 02:52, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

The definition was changed several times (removed the end-of-Pokedex requirement to include Garchomp, removed the dual type requirement to include Goodra), so if a Pokemon like the one I suggested were really introduced, wouldn't it be very likely that the definition will change again? sumwun (talk) 04:34, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

We'll just have to wait and see. Tiddlywinks (talk) 05:54, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

So does that mean I can't edit the article until such a Pokemon (or several such Pokemon) is introduced? sumwun (talk) 14:12, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

That would be correct, because the current definition of pseudo-legendary has no reason to change right now. You are trying to change something to match your view, when the majority of the Pokémon fanbase would still be using the current definition. ChE clarinetist (talk) 14:22, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Manga section

A manga section for the pseudo-legendaries is missing. PattyMan 20:29, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

On another note, the Dragonite from the Pokémon Origins anime could go here too as a pseudo-legendary has appeared in that medium. PattyMan 20:33, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Individual Characteristics: Others

I like how it says that Tyranitar and Hydreigon are the only two pseudo legendaries with a unique type combination. Another thing to add to that is that they are both Dark-types. Christian (talk) 02:12, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Trivia fact

Here is an interesting fact to add. All of the pseudo-legendary Pokemon appear towards the end of the regional Pokedexs. Christian (talk) 14:49, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

False. Neither Garchomp nor Goodra do. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 19:52, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

My bad.Christian (talk) 23:28, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Please add this useless bit of trivia.

• All pseudo-legendary Pokémon introduced in a generation divisible by three (and only these pseudo-legendary Pokémon) cannot learn Surf.

sumwun (talk) 20:48, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

This is way too specific and not notable in the slightest. --Carmen★ (Talk | contribs) 20:52, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Can we add "only pseudo-legend that requires a special condition to evolve", for Goodra? (Shadoguardian (talk) 15:47, 4 June 2016 (UTC))

I don't think it's very notable. Tiddlywinks (talk) 16:38, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

But I thought trivia was supposed to be trivial. sumwun (talk) 17:03, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

Trivia is for facts that don't fit easily elsewhere on the page but are important or significant to an understanding of the page's subject. Trivia sections should never have items that you feel are "useless" (as in the title of this section) or whose value amounts to "So what?" Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 17:30, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

But most trivia I've seen does amount to "So what?" If you feel that it's wrong, why haven't you deleted them? sumwun (talk) 22:22, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

If you're only doing this to parody most trivia which you already see as useless, please stop. Period.

If you have an issue with trivia in general, bring it up somewhere like the Editor's Hub. If you have an issue with any specific trivia currently on some page, feel free to discuss those trivia on those pages. But do not manufacture something you don't really support just to make a "point".

Thank you. Tiddlywinks (talk) 22:54, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Sorry for making you think I'm just parodying others' trivia. I'm trying to say that my suggestion isn't any less useful than most of the stuff I've seen. sumwun (talk) 16:41, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

That doesn't mean you can add something non-notable; it just means some bad trivia points have gotten in without anybody noticing, and they should be removed. See Wikipedia:Other stuff exists. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 00:59, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Can somebody give me an example of trivia that's actually useful? I'm confused here. sumwun (talk) 15:02, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Useful hardly even comes into the picture for what you proposed. Your trivia simply has too many very specific and arbitrary conditions. There's no notable pattern, no meaningful connection in what you've "discovered"; it's just called coincidence, and that's not at all notable. Tiddlywinks (talk) 15:32, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Okay then, what is notable? I'm still confused. sumwun (talk) 16:29, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

The simplest category of notable trivia is generally "most" or "least" trivia. (Not all such that may be imagined may be notable.) This is things like Generation III is the only generation so far to have introduced more than one pseudo-legendary Pokémon. or Blissey has the highest base HP of all Pokémon. Keeping such trivia simple is also heavily preferred; if a condition like "in Generation [X]" or "of these types of Pokemon" is added, it may not be notable (moreso if you try to add multiple conditions). Tiddlywinks (talk) 16:35, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

I know that this hasn't been touched upon at all recently, but maybe it could be formatted as "Goodra is the only pseudo-legendary that does not evolve through level-up" or something like that? It's technically the same thing, considering the pseudos that we have, but its not as specific. Just a suggestion. --Quadrel (talk) 02:29, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Individual Characteristics: Others

In "Others," I like how it says that Tyranitar and Hydriegon are the only psuedo-legendaries to have a unique type combination. Can you add to that fact that both Pokemon are also part Dark-type?Christian (talk) 14:52, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

Fairy Type Weakness

I'm bringing this up again. Just because Metagross is not weak to fairy, it is not notable anymore?

It could be worded like 'Metagross is the only Pseudo-Legendary that is not weak to Fairy' or something. The legendary PkmnTrainerV is Here! (talk) 11:42, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

No. This is too small of a group to be making exceptions. It's just not notable. --Carmen★ (Talk | contribs) 11:52, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

I rechecked the metagross part of the article, and it is indeed listed. I'm sorry for not reading carefully... The legendary PkmnTrainerV is Here! (talk) 12:03, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Ownership of new pseudos

Tyranitar, Metagross, Garchomp & Salamence have appeared under the ownership of Alain, Sycamore and Sawyer respectively in the anime, can somebody add it Pratik_12 _Talk 18:09, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Kommo-o

I know that at this time there is not sufficient evidence to suggest that Kommo-o will be a Pseudo-Legendary, but will it be added if, when the games are released, it has a stat total of 600? ZiggyAngelo8 (talk) 18:31, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

The staff will assess that when it's released. The rest of us can't speculate what decision the staff will make. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 18:43, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

If Kommo-o has a BST of 600 and 1,250,000 experience at level 100, it will be considered a pseudo-legendary Pokémon. --SnorlaxMonster 01:31, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

It does. Can it please be added now? ^.^ Nutter Butter (talk) 21:17, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Kommo-o is still not shown on the page, the user who asked for it to be added and the request isn't ready yet. We have patience so let's see if an admin replies to my reply.--Cinday123 (Talk) 22:48, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Kommo-o has a unique type combination Dragon/Fighting, alongside its pre-evolution Hakamo-o but someone forgot to add this piece of info into the other characteristics so this should be added in.--Cinday123 (Talk) 00:24, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

New Evidence!

I play Pokemon Black 2. I noted that whenever I send out a Legendary that lands on the ground (like the 3 musketeers and Zekrom), there is a shimmer effect after they land. This seems to show that this Pokemon is a legendary. However, there are other Pokemon who have this shimmer effect as they land, too.

Examples include Tyranitar, Crustle, Arcanine, Onix, Steelix, Dragonite, Graveler, Golem, Milotic, Emboar, Metagross, Beartic, and Mamoswine.

Could these Pokemon and others in fact have a classification as "Legendary"? Are they just some of the strongest Pokemon, or are they all just heavy? - unsigned comment from Reshiespeon (talk • contribs)

It's a visual indicator that they're heavy. It has nothing to do with Legendary status. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 16:36, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

"For one reason or another..."

In the Trivia section at the bottom of the page, five pokemon commonly mistaken for pseudo-legendaries are listed, followed by the sentence "For one reason or another, these Pokémon do not fit the criteria of those above and so are not pseudo-legendary Pokémon."

While this is correct, it would perhaps be more helpful to mention that it is because none of them have a base stat total of 600. It could also, perhaps, be mentioned that Slaking has a higher base stat total than 600, but the criteria require exactly 600 (and perhaps also mention Truant as rationale for not including Slaking anyway--but that's probably too in-depth for a trivia section).

To clarify, I am suggesting, at least, changing "For one reason or another, these Pokémon do not fit the criteria of those above and so are not pseudo-legendary Pokémon." to "None of these Pokémon have the requisite base stat total of 600 to be considered pseudo-legendary." Xolroc (talk) 18:09, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Requirements to be a pseudo-legendary

I am not sure where, exactly, the definition of pseudo-legendary came from, but it strikes me that two of the three criteria given to class a Pokémon as pseudo-legendary are redundant: the pseudo-legendaries are exactly those Pokémon which are not actually legendary or mega-evolutions and have a base stat total of six hundred. No Pokémon besides the eight listed pseudo-legendaries meets this criterion, and so the requirement of a three-stage evolution line and 1250000 experience at level 100 seem redundant to me. I don't know if these redundant criteria should be removed and simply mentioned as common traits all current ones share, or if there is some good reason to keep them.

Note also that the requirements given already, without specifying that mega evolutions don't count as pseudo-legendaries, would make Mega Alakazam and Mega Gengar be pseudo-legendaries. Alternatively, if mega evolution counts as an evolution stage for the "has a three-stage evolution line" requirement, Mega Scizor and Mega Houndour count as pseudo-legendaries. At the very least, "is not a mega evolution" should be added to the criteria.

Xolroc (talk) 18:17, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

About Salamence and Hydreigon

Should we list that J has a Salamence, and that Cameron has a Hydreigon? Crum Mum 01:48, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

The term originates from the prefix pseudo-, which means "false".

Why does the lead of this article go out of its way to explain a common English word? I mean, I know Pokemon is targeted at children, and young children may not be familiar with pseudo-, but isn't its meaning obvious from context anyway?

I think it would be best to just remove this sentence, but if not then it should be combined with the following sentence to read something like

The term combines the prefix pseudo-, which means "false", with Legendary Pokémon, due to their being more powerful than most other non-Legendary Pokémon and therefore being considered closer to Legendary Pokémon.

This would eliminate the inaccurate use of "originate" to give the actual etymology. The term doesn't originate from the prefix pseudo-; it originates as a combination of pseudo- with Legendary Pokémon, and the use of a Japanese term in the first sentence implies it actually originates as a translation from Japanese. (If anyone wants to know why I'm being so pedantic about the meanings of words, it's because I can't edit the page directly and need to be extremely specific about my thinking so that if someone proxies for me they know exactly what they are doing.)

Satorukun0530 (talk) 02:03, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Correction: The "Japanese name" should also be replaced with "600族 600 Club", since 疑似伝説 is a made up Japanese translation of the English name, at least as far as Japanese Pokemon wiki knows. Satorukun0530 (talk) 04:13, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Kommo-o : Users

For notable Trainers of Kommo-o, can we include Ryuki (from the League Title Defense), as well as noting the existence of Totem Kommo-o in Vast Poni Canyon? Pucky501 (talk) 18:45, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Seconding this question regarding the mention of Totem Kommo-o. --Bulbafan (talk) 20:36, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Another Trivia bit concerning type effectiveness

I was thinking that we should add a trivia point about Metagross and Goodra, specifically they're the only two pseudos that don't have a 4x weakness (Dragonite, Salamence and Garchamp have 4x weakness to Ice, Hydreigon and Kommo-o to Fairy, and Tyranitar to Fighting). The point would just say "Metagross and Goodra are the only two pseudo-legendary pokémon that are not 4x weak to a type." Or something like that. Just a thought :/ --Quadrel (talk) 02:24, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

To say "only" "two" is vaguely contradictory. To be more plain: if something isn't unique to a single Pokemon/family, it's usually not regarded as good trivia. Tiddlywinks (talk) 03:00, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Anime section

I'd like to point out that the anime says "all pseudo-Legendary Pokémon" have appeared in the anime even though Kommo-o has not debut yet; it should say among the lines of "all pseudo-Legendary Pokémon as of Generation VI" or "all Pseudo-Legendary Pokémon except Kommo-o". I would've fixed this myself, but the page is locked for regular users like myself. UxieLover1994 (talk) 07:09, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Hydreigon section

Will you please replace * Only pseudo-legendary Pokémon with multiple elemental immunities (however its immunity to {{t|Ground}} is due to its Ability, {{a|Levitate}}). with * Only pseudo-legendary Pokémon to have {{t|Dragon}} as its secondary type.? SaturnMario, his talk and his contributions 18:59, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Other and type immunity

Can someone please change *Goodra and Kommo-o are the only pseudo-legendary Pokémon that do not always have a type immunity. . to * Goodra is the only pseudo-legendary Pokémon that do not always have a type immunity. since Kommo-o doesn't have a type immunity under any circumstances while Goodra does but only through it's ability Sap Sipper which it may not always have. Nikuriku (talk) 09:47, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

You may or may not have already seen this, but this was already addressed last month at User talk:SnorlaxMonster#Pseudo-legendaries. He said: I don't think that's necessary. The current statement doesn't imply that both Goodra and Kommo-o can have a type immunity under some circumstances, only that at least one of them does. Thanks. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 16:11, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

The statement is wholly true as it stands. Given the claim "[X] always has a type immunity", both Goodra and Kommo-o fail to meet that claim. The answer to "Do they always have a type immunity?" is negative: they do not always have a type immunity. Tiddlywinks (talk) 16:18, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

I know this is old and I have complained a lot, I'd like to say before I explain how I see the scenario I would like to apologise on any potential obnoxious behaviour in the past.

Just really want to say on how I interpret the scenario to explain why I requested a change:

I personally saw that the claim Goodra and Kommo-o are the only pseudo-legendary Pokémon that do not always have a type immunity was implying that they did not always have a type immunity which I interpreted as Kommo-o not 'always' having a type immunity meant that in some scenarios it has the potential to have a type immunity but only in certain scenarios.

I would like to say that my understanding of a type-immunity meant an immunity to the elemental typing of attacks(e.g. fire, water) rather than immunity to certain FORM of attacks (e.g. soundbased, ball/bomb based) which Kommo-o CAN have via Bulletproof/Soundproof.

I know Goodra doesn't always have one due to being entirely dependant on the ability Sap Sipper which it doesn't always have but I saw it as with the case of Kommo-o, its Dragon/Fighting typing doesn't grant it any immunities under any circumstances which I thought that the sentence was telling me.

So basically I was confused as I believed that the sentence meant that Kommo-o not always having a type immunity meaning that only in some situations does a Kommo-o have the potential to have a type immunity.

Sorry if this sounds obnoxious but I just really wanted to say how I viewed the sentence to clear a few things up based on Kommo-o not always having a type immunity.

Nikuriku (talk) 12:13, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Notable?

If this is a fan term, is it notable? RubyLeafGreenCrystal (talk) 17:37, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Trivia idea that will probably be rejected

Can someone add this to the trivia?

• No two pseudo-legendary Pokémon share an ability.

sumwun (talk) 16:29, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

There's no reason to expect they should. Tiddlywinks (talk) 19:04, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

SM051

The dub title for SM051 needs to be added. Playerking95 (talk) 14:00, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Pre-evolutions' BST

The article should probably mention somewhere that all pseudo-legendary Pokemon evolve from a Pokemon whose base stat total is exactly 300. sumwun (talk) 17:51, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Why is this page FULLY protected?

I don't get sense why this page is fully protected. Even registered users can't edit it and it isn't a Bulbapedia:something page... WHY??? - unsigned comment from LugiaLunala (talk • contribs)

It's because, in the past, users would keep changing the definition of a pseudo legendary, which would then lead to edit wars. So it was decided that the page would be fully protected.--ForceFire 11:59, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Semi-Pseudo Legendaries

Those Pokemon listed and the bottom that don't qualify as PL's but aren't, I beleive they're called Semi-Pseudo Legendaries. Since I can't edit the page, I decided to put this here so people that can still edit this page could maybe add that in? Bravebravesirbrian (talk) 18:04, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Why do we need to give that group a name? I think we already have too many unofficial names for unofficial groups of Pokemon. sumwun (talk) 18:29, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

I was merely making a suggestion Bravebravesirbrian (talk) 18:32, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Sandstorm links to wrong place in the Tyranitar section

I quote

====Tyranitar====

With a focus on power and durability, {{p|Tyranitar}} sacrifices Speed to have tremendous bulk and skill. It has the {{a|Sand Stream}} Ability to always conjure up a {{m|Sandstorm}}, which takes advantage of its Rock typing to further increase its high Special Defense.

Change {{m|Sandstorm}} to {{weather|Sandstorm}}

That way it links to the weather effect, and not the move. Linking to the move doesn't really make sense.

-Loopsi (talk) 22:01, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Mega Tyranitar and Mega Metagross

In the Tyranitar section, remove the part where it says “ Mega Tyranitar has the highest base Defense, with 150.” and change it with “ Mega Tyranitar and Mega Metagross has the highest base Defense, with 150.” in the other section. MindOfSableye (talk) 16:36, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Official Japanese Name?

Pokémon have recently released plushies for this grouping. https://www.pokemon.co.jp/info/2019/10/191011_p02.html I don't speak japanese, but it seems to use the phrase "大器晩成" (which I think is the equivalent "late bloomer") to describe them. Is this notable? JMVB - very sporadic editor since 2008 (talk) 07:30, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

The term appears to be related to the line of merchandise being about the weak base form evolving into the strong fully evolved form, still the official acknowledgement of this group is relevant and I wonder if the related artwork could be of use for this page.—Mister Wu (talk) 18:45, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind the image, but the image should be .png format.--ForceFire 05:21, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the image has only been released in JPEG format, if you have suggestions on how to proceed, I’ll gladly help.—Mister Wu (talk) 10:53, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

I've re-uploaded a png version. You can save a jpeg image as a png image by opening it in a photo editing program and saving it as a png file.--ForceFire 11:57, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks!—Mister Wu (talk) 13:49, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

BST of pre-evolutions

The article should say that every pseudo-legendary evolves from something whose BST is 300. I know I already posted this before, but it's been much longer than 6 months, and I still care about this edit. sumwun (talk, contribs) 15:41, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

Sword and Shield are not out yet, but I would like to point out that in the wake of recent data dumps surrounding new Pokemon, this statement no longer holds true as Generation VIII's pseudo-legendary's base form has a BST of 270. I will not disclose its name, but the new pseudo-legendary line of Sword and Shield has broken this trend. --ScraftyIsTheBest (talk) 03:08, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Okay thanks. sumwun (talk, contribs) 16:05, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Dragapult

I know the staff are likely incredibly busy and this isn't top priority at the moment, however, with all the Pokemon's stats and data out, I believe it is well established by now that Dragapult is the Generation VIII pseudo-legendary. Based on all the data surrounding it, everything lines up:

- Dragapult's BST is 600

- It is part of a three-stage evolutionary line

- The entire line has a catch rate of 45 (Dreepy, Drakloak, and Dragapult all have a catch rate of 45)

- It is in the Slow EXP group

- It requires 40 egg cycles to hatch a Dreepy

Just bringing this up for staff to assess. I won't push anyone to get this updated immediately, but bringing this up and if anyone in the staff has objections based on assessment, feel free to discuss them. But just bringing Dragapult up because I believe it is very much the pseudo-legendary of the new generation based on thorough assessment of it. -ScraftyIsTheBest (talk) 23:43, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Would like to potentially provide templates and whatnot for the page if/when Dragapult gets added to the page, just for ease:

Dragapult
Dragon	Ghost
	Drakloak
Dragon	Ghost
	Dreepy
Dragon	Ghost

Also BST:

Pokémon	Dragonite	Tyranitar	Salamence	Metagross	Garchomp	Hydreigon	Goodra	Kommo-o	Dragapult
HP	91	100	95	80	108	92	90	75	88
Attack	134	134	135	135	130	105	100	110	120
Defense	95	110	80	130	95	90	70	125	75
Sp. Attack	100	95	110	95	80	125	110	100	100
Sp. Defense	100	100	80	90	85	90	150	105	75
Speed	80	61	100	70	102	98	80	85	142
Total	600	600	600	600	600	600	600	600	600

And new calculated BST averages with Dragapult in mind:

HP: 91, Attack: 122.56, Defense: 96.67, SpAtk: 101.67, SpDef: 97.22, Speed: 90.89

As for users, Dragapult is used by Leon, who is the Champion in Sword and Shield.

Side note: probably worth noting that Goodra is also used by Raihan in his Champion Cup matches.

ScraftyIsTheBest (talk) 18:01, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

|}

Because of Gen VIII introducing the next pseudo-legendary Pokémon, some of the facts need to be updated.

• First, Dragapult is now the tallest pseudo-legendary Pokémon with a height of 9'10", not Dragonite or Tyranitar.
• Second, Dragapult now has the lowest base Special Defense with 75, not Salamence with 80.
• Third, Dragapult is now the pseudo-legendary Pokémon with the highest base Speed stat, not Garchomp with 102.
• Fourth, Dragapult is now the lightest pseudo-legendary Pokémon with 110.2 lbs., not Kommo-o with 172.4 lbs.

So it would be great if someone could update them. --TotallyTob 03:17, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

I've updated the trivia accordingly. --SnorlaxMonster 11:17, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Outdated information

In the lede, the article states that "Some fans omit the need to have 1,250,000 experience at level 100 from their definition, although this has no effect on the Pokémon that are in the group."

It's no longer true that this doesn't affect group membership, since Alakazam has a three-stage evolutionary line and as of gen VII has a base stat total of 600; the only thing keeping it out of the pseudolegendaries by the definition this article presents is that it's in the medium-slow experience group instead of the slow one.

--Felthry (talk) 17:15, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Effectively, the fact that the first official acknowledgement of this group we know about was in a line of merchandise named Late Bloomers suggests that the main traits of this group, beside the high power due to the 600 base stats total, are the slow leveling up and late evolution.—Mister Wu (talk) 18:20, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm not making any argument for what the definition should be or should not be. I'm just saying that that one single sentence is no longer true. --Felthry (talk) 16:56, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

Alakazam only has 600 through being a Mega, though.Roserade57 (talk) 10:49, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Base Stat Averages (Update)

The BST averages are a bit out of date as they don't account for Dragapult now having joined the pattern. They should be updated to

HP: 91

Attack: 122.56

Defense: 96.67

Special Attack: 101.67

Special Defense: 97.22

Speed: 90.89

Side note: Since there's a brief description of every pseudo-legendary, for Dragapult, it would be worth noting that its stat spread heavily emphasizes speed (it's extremely fast) and solid offensive stats to back it up, while being frailer than the others. -ScraftyIsTheBest (talk) 02:33, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Edit request

In the Users section I’m not seeing any references to the Ultra (for Ghetsis, Ryuki, and Molayne) or Let’s Go (Lance) games, despite every other core game being referenced.--KnightGalarie (talk) 05:53, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Pseudo-pseudo-legendary Pokemon

Pokemon that have a high base stat total that's close to, but not 600, and are evolved into at a level over 40, for example Flygon, Haxorus, Volcarona, and Aggron, should be called pseudo-pseudo-legendary. - unsigned comment from GlowstoneLove (talk • contribs)

That's not really a common fan term at all, let alone enough to warrant a mention... Besides, there wouldn't be any concrete "rules" for what would constitute that; the only defining characteristic between those is basically "undefinedly high BST". --celadonk (talk) 22:36, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Descriptions for each of the pseudo-legendaries

I wanted to suggest to the (junior) admins/bureaucrats edits to the descriptions for the Individual characteristics section. Bold is added text, crossed text is deleted text.

• Dragonite: [...] It has a traditionally high Attack, average speed and above average stats otherwise. Its hidden Ability is Multiscale, which further bolsters its respectable bulk.

• Tyranitar: [...] Tyranitar sacrifices Speed and a bit of Special Attack to have tremendous bulk and skill. [...]

• Salamence: [...] Its stats are high in Attack, Special Attack, and Speed, while comparatively low (but nevertheless respectable) in both Defense stats. It has the Intimidate Ability, allowing it to take physical attacks more easily.

• Goodra: Unlike the other pseudo-legendary Pokémon, Goodra is mainly defensive more defensive-oriented. This can be reflected on its stats (with its Special Defense being much higher than its Attack and Special Attack, which are somewhat similar), as well as its Abilities, all of which have some sort of defensive utility. Its Attack and Special Attack are very similar. However, it focuses slightly more on Special Attack and has a more versatile selection of special attacks. It has the lowest base Attack of all the pseudo-legendary Pokémon. (move this fact to a bullet point)

• Kommo-o: Kommo-o has mostly well-rounded stats and, though it is slightly more defensive than offensive. Its offensive stats almost mirror those of Goodra, with somewhat similar Attack and Special Attack, though it focuses slightly more on Attack and has a more versatile selection of physical attacks.

• Dragapult: Dragapult, much like Salamence, has a higher focus on attacking prowess, though it sacrifices physical Attack and overall bulk for significantly higher Speed. This makes it more of a glass cannon compared to the other pseudo-legendary Pokémon.

That Beep guy from the SmashWiki (talk to me!) 11:44, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Mega Evolutions

Could somebody add a table for the base stats and artwork for the Mega Evolved Pseudo-Legendaries similar to the table of their base forms on this page? I did a similar thing on the Primal Reversion page last month but for whatever reason don't have the clearance on this page. Alolan Ninetales (talk) 06:52, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Better tables

With the introduction of Dragapult, the section "List of pseudo-legendary Pokémon" is now broken because it has too many elements side-by-side, creating a horizontal scrollbar even on desktop. I made this on my userpage without using tables inside tables and it doesn't break the screen boundaries (plus it's somewhat responsive). Could someone add this on the page (I can't edit myself)? — Lakelimbo (talk) 20:12, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

For what it's worth, it looks fine on my end, but I can imagine it being weird on other devices. I think it's more indicative of a deeper problem though... (assumedly) further generations will add more and more pseudo legendaries, adding more and more entries to this table, as well as the base stat table below that. Eventually we'll need to shift to something pretty different from what's already here, and I think it's worth starting the conversation now.

Just to put it out there, but I'd be perfectly fine with eschewing tables entirely for what is essentially a glorified list. --celadonk (talk) 21:04, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I like the upper tables, they just could be divided into two lines (although double boldness on the names is annoying). The bottom table with stats will not fit on my screen with the next pseudo.--Rocket Grunt 21:12, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I think that grid layout makes the entries a bit too wide. I've changed this page to just use float: left instead of an outer table, which should fix the key issue with it. --SnorlaxMonster 15:01, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Oh it's alright, I made them wider just to have 4 on the top and 4 on the bottom (on an average screen size). It's also possible to define grid-template-columns: repeat(auto-fit, minmax(250px, auto)) to ~167px if float some day becomes problematic/deprecated. — Lakelimbo (talk) 21:23, 13 May 2021 (UTC)