User talk:Nescientist/Archive01

Welcome to Bulbapedia, Nescientist!

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Thank you, and have a good time editing here!   Tiddlywinks (talk) 22:59, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Apology

Sorry for editing your userspace article without your permission. I failed to see your name in the article heading and only realized my mistake when you mentioned that it might be ready for mainspacing. Sorry for the trouble. --Super goku (talk) 14:48, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, no worries. I did ask for exactly the source you provided, so I'd rather thank you. Nescientist (talk) 15:33, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Effect section guidelines

I've actually talked about that with an admin few years ago, then kinda forgot about doing anything with it. Eridanus (talk) 12:04, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Ah, thanks, good to know. So SnorlaxMonster and I seem to agree on what is most reasonable in that regard. Anyway, our current move articles currently do (generally) not follow that "subsection only when changed" part (as well as some other ideas of the guideline), which has bothered me for a while. Right now, you basically have to read everything to know what you want to know in most cases. But I think especially if someone edits (almost) all move articles anyway (and I think between Tiddlywinks and myself, there's some chance in the near future), it might be a good idea to also adapt (after some kind of discussion/approval). If you have anything to add (or discuss), by all means, please feel free! Nescientist (talk) 13:35, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

I might add some moves' data (and maybe item locations as they're kinda lacking) on Mystery Dungeon spin-offs sometime in the future, once I figure out how moves work (this is not helped by the fact that Gates and Super have moves work differently than in the older games, like how Pursuit went from inflicting status on the user to an actual damaging move). Eridanus (talk) 14:09, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Meowth Theater

Hey there, just wanted to tell you that the Italian names for the Meowth Theater dungeons are listed here on Pokémon Central Wiki, it would be nice if you could add them on the pages when you create them though they don't say what they are based on. --Raltseye prata med mej 12:09, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Seems not too hard to find out. Thanks! Nescientist (talk) 12:12, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Nice, you're welcome. I'll be adding the Spanish and French names in a while as they're not listed at neither Poképédia nor WikiDex. --Raltseye prata med mej 13:26, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Showdown

When you mention Showdown like this, it sounds ilke it's an accepted source. In the same way as if someone mentioned Serebii in an edit summary, I'd just like to advise you to please avoid doing this, if only because it may give other users the wrong idea. Just find another justification, and that's all you need to communicate. Tiddlywinks (talk) 11:42, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

You're right, I'm usually more careful. I should've used nothing, or "backed up by". Nescientist (talk) 11:49, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

You shouldn't really need to note Showdown at all. If you want to remember it for yourself or something, perhaps you can make a userpage (or some file on your own computer). Tiddlywinks (talk) 12:06, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

I'm keeping track, that's not the reason I write that in edit summaries. These "backed up by" statements are actually meant for other users. I see no reason not to explain to all Bulbapedia editors what I do, or why I do it in as much detail as possible (and reasonable), so that they at least do have the opportunity to reproduce/understand it, or tell that I've checked Showdown for that particular move/Ability as well and have absolutely no reason to doubt what Bulbapedia currently says. (And most specifically, I guess, that's you.) So I feel I should note that, actually. Nescientist (talk) 12:29, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

But if we don't accept Showdown, *I* don't really care about it. And no one else should either, at least not in making decisions about what's on a page. Those decisions should be made without the "benefit" of Showdown. Either you can back up what you're doing without referencing Showdown, or you shouldn't be making the edit in the first place. Tiddlywinks (talk) 12:39, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

I know Showdown is not an accepted source; it doesn't influence whether I add something to a page. When Showdown contradicts Bulbapedia, I don't just add it to pages. Never have. Explicitly asked for whether I could, but accepted I could not. I leave them as they are.

However, contradictions are issues that should (ideally) be resolved. Had I not checked Showdown, I wouldn't have tested Heat Crash, and VioletPumpkin wouldn't have tested Whirlwind (well, I don't know, but maybe). Why should I withhold information? (And with that, I mean that I've read what Showdown says, not that it's necessarily accurate.) Nescientist (talk) 12:57, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

None of your examples above include any reason why you would need to mention Showdown in an edit summary. If you notice that Showdown says Heat Crash does something we don't say...at that point, there's nothing you need to edit. If you proceed to test Heat Crash and determine that Showdown is right...you still don't need to mention Showdown. "I tested this and discovered that it actually works like this" is perfectly fine, and/or is not helped by adding any mention of Showdown. Tiddlywinks (talk) 13:06, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you just don't get it or something. "At that point" is exactly where I want to (or more precisely, should be able to) make public that I've checked Showdown, and that it contradicts. So anyone is able to know, and can potentially maybe even do something about solving the apparent contradiction issue. It doesn't matter whether that's on a user page, a talk page, or an edit summary (i.e., of a sensible, related edit). It just mustn't be on a mainspace page (coz it's unsourced/unconfirmed). Nescientist (talk) 13:23, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Then you've completely veered away from where this started, making an "affirmative" edit (so to speak) and "citing" Showdown. If there's other support, Showdown doesn't need mentioning.

As for noting where Showdown contradicts something, I don't think I care if you mention Showdown as the source of doubt. But I'm not sure that Showdown (all by itself) contradicting BP would be a reason to make any sort of edit to a mainspace page... If you want to say something on the talk page, though, that's great. (Personally, I'd say that a user page might be better, or at least if you can link to a user page, just so people can find all the contradictions you've discovered together rather than just stumbling upon one or two on different talk pages.) Tiddlywinks (talk) 13:34, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Well, if you want to, I can abstain from making these affirmatives "no doubt" edits!? It's just that they're explicitly affirming there is not a doubt, not merely not affirming there is a doubt.

Yes, right now, I'm gathering contradictions. As I said to you on your talk page, I will go to talk pages or create a user page with collected contradictions depending on how many there are ("Depending on how much "Showdown-exclusive" info it will be...") . Nescientist (talk) 13:44, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

I'm just gonna make this simple: don't mention Showdown in edit summaries. If you feel you want to at some specific point in the future, feel free to ask on my talk page. We'll see if we can discuss it more, or at worst, perhaps you'll get a better idea of what I mean just by how I answer your different queries. Tiddlywinks (talk) 13:51, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

...And that was just about the single worst decision to make, in my opinion. It may be simple solution, but it is a major restriction (well, it's still very minor in the grand scheme of things, but the most severe policy in regard to the topic at hand), and from what we've discussed here, I don't think it is justified at all. (I don't even know why you think it is.) Don't get me wrong, but I'm not willing to create that much overhead and ask for permission on whether I'm allowed to mention Showdown in an edit summary. Which means I'm gonna have to abstain from mentioning Showdown in edit summaries altogether, despite all arguments I mentioned. Nescientist (talk) 15:35, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

(resetting indent)More or less all I'm saying is this is plainly not working as an abstract discussion. If you want to discuss a specific case, I'll be waiting. If not, that's fine too. Tiddlywinks (talk) 16:20, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

I feel you've clearly done more than that, honestly. I felt the discussion went well as per usual, until you went "don't mention Showdown in edit summaries." (But I still feel you have good intentions, as per usual.) But I really don't want to discuss specific cases. Nescientist (talk) 17:13, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

"Well" is apparently a matter of perspective here. *I'm* not confident what saying "Yeah, okay" instead of "Don't mention Showdown" would have meant--that it wouldn't have ended up with you mentioning it somewhere I've been trying to say it isn't necessary. And I don't like continuing to discuss it abstractly. I'd much rather put it in the concrete terms of an actual case. Frankly, I can't see any case where mentioning Showdown would be useful, therefore I don't really feel my direction is a bad thing. But I was/am willing to be convinced if you can present a specific case that makes it clear. Tiddlywinks (talk) 17:39, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

That I can do/try. This edit summary would better read something like "not including terrains and Knock Off although Showdown (or "another source" in general) suggests those" or similar at the end; that's worth including imo because of what I said in my third edit here, timestamped 12:57. (Yes, it's also suited for a talk or user page, but that's not the point.) This edit summary could have had "UPC, backed up by Showdown" because of what I said in my second edit here, timestamped 12:29 (I believe it didn't change / have no reason to believe it did change in Gen VI or something). (The edit summary you original came here for should have been different for the reason you gave in the very first post.)

And going the "in general" route: there's a difference between guidance and executive decision, or even infantilization. There's also a difference between prohibition except for approved exceptions (whitelisting) and allowance except for forbidden exceptions (blacklisting). Nescientist (talk) 19:28, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

The one on Gust: there's absolutely no reason to include any mention of Showdown. UPC alone is entirely sufficient. Showdown adds nothing and may imply to some that it's a trusted source. If you also want to record things that Showdown verifies continue the same into Gen VI, again, feel free to do that on a user page or something.

If you're doing something else at the same time, like on Power, then I suppose I don't mind if you say at the same time something like "Showdown suggests [whatever], should be investigated". (Basically, I'd be much at ease if somehow it's clear that Showdown by itself cannot be blindly trusted for making such an edit.) I don't honestly think that's the best recourse anyway if you're looking to notify/potentially include other users (the talk page seems a better option to me), but I'm not really going to try to convince you. Tiddlywinks (talk) 19:57, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Well, if you want to, I can abstain from making these affirmatives "no doubt" edits!

I too always wanted to convey that Showdown cannot/should not be blindly trusted. (And it's not so much that I want to notify others by the edit summaries, but really just be more transparent in what I'm doing etc.) The way I see it, everything is cleared up now (we're even of the same opinion for the most relevant part), and there's not a problem. Thank you. Nescientist (talk) 20:29, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Mount Lanakila and Blush Mountain

Hey, just for transparency I guess, I'd love to know about your source for the Sun encounter rates at Mount Lanakila and Blush Mountain. (It'd be really neat if it's a new dump or something I just haven't seen and could peruse myself as well.) Thanks! Tiddlywinks (talk) 00:09, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

I feel a bit ashamed. Me not being transparent, sigh. What was the above section all about?

I don't know about your source, but the German Pokéwiki seems to have a different one. For Glühberg and Mount Lanakila here, I made sure they started off with that data and that an admin added it, and that it actually makes sense (adds up to 100 etc.). You might want to get in touch with them maybe, especially because they sometimes added encounter rates for SOS Battles, though I assume (see Talk:SOS Battle) those might just be "base rates". At the very least, you can take a look at what they have when you're sure we have it wrong or not at all (which is what I'm doing a lot these days). Nescientist (talk) 00:41, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

This seems a bit passive aggressive.

I'll leave it there and keep on doing what I can. Thanks. Tiddlywinks (talk) 00:48, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Huh, why? No, no, no. :( It was not meant like that, honestly. Why do I apparently often come across so harsh?

Maybe I should have separated my answer and my suggestion a little more. I don't know how close your (staff's) connection is to them, but if it's not totally out of reach, I could imagine it would be helpful to ask them. And looking at their pages often is. Nescientist (talk) 01:02, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

I guess I made the wrong connection(s) and didn't understand some of it right. I'm glad to know that, then. Sorry for the misunderstanding, and thanks again. Tiddlywinks (talk) 01:23, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

About Dazzling/Queenly Majesty.

Well, I got your message and I just wanted to apologize for the trouble as well as say that I've gotten what you told me.IM-T-MAN2 (talk) 19:08, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Quick Claw

Hey, you seem to be better at reading the disassembly than me, so I'm asking you to try this instead. Can you work out the probability of Quick Claw activating in Generation II? I think it's related to this section, but I'm confused where the variables that the random number is being compared to are coming from, which is what I would need to know to determine the probability. --SnorlaxMonster 17:27, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Hm, those are always a hassle, and I'm still learning, so maybe you're better off asking Froggy25 for more sophisticated/reliable information.

Anyway, I believe the c value is this 60, which is loaded in GetOpponentItem here. The e value seems to be whatever is popped here, and it's really hard to track down where it was originally pushed, but I believe it might have been here at some point (and maybe dynamically at other locations in a similar manner); anyway, it would make sense for it to be that same 60 as well (the player's held Quick Claw parameter).

That would amount to ~24% chance of activation. Also note that UPC (also) say it is 15/64 (although I believe it is 60/255, not 60/254, and they say GS not C). Nescientist (talk) 15:35, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Pushing/popping moves things to/from the stack. The stack is a last-in, first-out structure; if you push 1, then 2, then 3, your first pop is 3, then 2, then 1. A push instruction just says "take the value from this variable (bc, de, whatever) and put it on the stack", and a pop instruction says "take the current value from the top of the stack and store it in this variable (bc, de, whatever)". That is, it doesn't in any way remember "They pushed 'bc' before, but they're popping 'de' now, so that's something different". There's only ONE, "dumb" stack.

FYI, as far as I know, most of the time, pushing and popping should pretty much exclusively be a way for a function to preserve variables, since CPUs only have a limited number of available registers; when another function is called, it may very well need to use registers that the caller wasn't finished with, so they get stored on the stack so that the caller can restore those values after the called function returns. That is, you usually shouldn't have to look far to see where a popped value was pushed, and/or you don't usually have to worry about if it was pushed by a called function. Specifically, in the crystal disassembly, you were right about where you said 'e' was popped in, above, but it was only pushed a couple lines before that, not far away. Tiddlywinks (talk) 15:59, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

I know what a stack is, I just thought they used different ones. But yeah, in that case, e is the player's held item's 60 (from GetUserItem) and c the opponent's (GetOpponentItem). Nescientist (talk) 16:12, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Damage article

Hello, I checked around and could not find where you got permission to make the changes to that article. If you want to mainspace something from your userspace, you have to ask a staff member for approval to move it. As for my opinion, technical aspects of the franchise is not something I have knowledge or interests in, so I can't have a say. Thank you.--ForceFire 05:06, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Hm, this comes as a surprise, actually. This is something I've worked on for a long time, with an enormous amount of effort, discussion, sourcing, and (at least sometimes) coordination, with Tiddlywinks in particular. If that doesn't constitute as "permission", and if you feel that indeed (more) permission was required, then I apologize. (But then I should also mention that this change involved updating formula images on the Archives, and if you rollback what I did on bp, you'd have to rollback on the Archives as well.)

As far as I'm concerned, although the change in bytes looks horrific, it was merely a rearrangement and corrections of the page itself (that just has been prepared in my userspace rather than the editor), and not a move, actual "merge", or a BIG big change really. (I even did not touch anything on "type effectiveness" out there, which should be the most "controversial" part.) Nescientist (talk) 05:41, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

You still need to ask for permission to move the final product, countless prior discussions does not mean you have permission. Regardless of it being an update of the page, you still need permission to move it (not merge, there's a very specific way to merge pages, which only admins can do). Also, I'm not an admin at the archives, so I don't have the power to revert an upload.--ForceFire 05:53, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

I know that this (generally) is the case for page moves or merges, but what I want to say is that this was neither. Basically, what I did is prepare an edit (a moderately large one, but still an ordinary rearrange/correct edit) publicly in a userpage (and extensively discussed etc.), and then merged it in to preserve edit histories for everyone (by preserving concurrent edits on both ends, which should be usual procedure for a (pseudo-)merge like this, admin or ordinary editor). It still surprises me (I thought I had almost done too much). Nescientist (talk) 06:16, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Regarding your Nightmare edit comment

Note that "---" in general means accuracy bypass, but 100% should remain since that's how it is in III and onwards. --FIQ (talk) 17:16, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

I meant something like "100%", which is the format we do for other modified moves. It may make sense here, even more so as you cannot observe that "100%" in-game anyway (although that's what it still is technically), but I'm also ok with it being in the prose only. Nescientist (talk) 17:37, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Mathematical formulae

Hello! Since you have shown interest in this area in the past, I thought I might consult with you about an idea I had for an article. Mostly, I think it would be a good idea to bring together the various information on formulae in the games, especially the earlier ones for which more information is known (due to the disassemblies). Additionally, it would probably be nice to be able to explain the exact algorithm used in each case, including the order in which operations are applied (this affects how rounding works, for example) and how working values are stored (especially quotients) since this can affect accuracy of results. See this section for a look at what got me thinking this might be a good idea.

This is too big a project to do on my own, so I want to gauge community interest and see if someone knowledgeable about the game mechanics might be able to help out. --Felthry (talk) 19:06, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

I guess I'm certainly one of the firmest supporters of more community crowdsourcing efforts, and if it's within my area of expertise, I'm likely willing to contribute there. Especially when someone is asking who is also been giving.

My problem right now is that I can't really envision what you're aiming at. Would it be a game mechanic article (in the spirit of Character encoding in Generation I) with headings such as "Division", or one with headings such as "Experience", or something else? Would it be something you're being linked to, basically detail subpages? What would be the benefit of that article, what information would it have that Experience etc. wouldn't have? Or wouldn't it be intended for mainspace, be more like a manual on technicalities, or like some sort of code inspection hub?

And then there's my "In general" opinion piece nobody has asked for: when there's formulae involved, the two goals of "accuracy" and "simplicity" may often conflict. I always try to find a decent compromise, one that's at least "not inaccurate" but "understandable". I think technobabble never really makes sense, especially when it's about a children's game after all. Actually, I think this is a problem Wikipedia has (or had) with math-heavy articles: they describe concepts accurately, but at the cost that only mathematicians understand them. Nescientist (talk) 10:28, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

I was thinking something like Character encoding in Generation I, to use your example. I mostly thought of this while trying to make some sense of the code; I found there didn't seem to be any sort of resources on the game's detailed mechanics and computational algorithms anywhere on the internet and that is something I would like to have. "code inspection hub" sounds like about what I'd want, but a manual on technicalities is probably more encyclopaedic. --Felthry (talk) 16:07, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

I still can't grasp it. Roughly like Spading for math/code details only? Maybe try to draft it, then I might understand it better?

(If you intend it for mainspace, that's really hard for me to imagine as an independent article, but if it's for userspace, or Appendix, then it might be a good idea.)

I'm not interested in learning everything about assembly just to technobabble about it, but otherwise, if it's useful, generally, I could definitely (at least!) try to support you along the way? Nescientist (talk) 17:42, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

I'll try to draft something up at some point to see if it's even worth doing.

I'm the sort of person who wants the highest accuracy possible, even at the expense of legibility, though of course a low-accuracy high-legibility article should accompany any particularly arcane article. --Felthry (talk) 19:50, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

UPC

As you have noticed with Stadium Bubblebeam, UPC has a ton of incorrect information. Please, do not use it as a source. Only use disassemblies from the games, either from github.com/pret or datacrystal. --Froggy25 (talk) 02:26, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

As you might have noticed, I am careful, and I do prefer/doublecheck with disassemblies (where possible), and I do "overrule" UPC where necessary. (Also, FYI, I run a list of cases where I'm in doubt what information is correct, the contents of which I will either check myself, or publish at some point.)

When I added BubbleBeam's 30%, I wasn't aware of datacrystal. But even then, I'm still not aware of any instance where I changed "correct" to "incorrect" based on UPC. (And frankly, in the case of BubbleBeam, the 10% we had before was way worse.) Further help/complaints (and/or specific cases) can go here directly, please. :) Nescientist (talk) 18:24, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

Hidden Power

I noticed you mentioned that Hidden Power is countered by Counter and not Mirror Coat prior to the physical/special split. However, your text seems to indicate that Hidden Power's damage category still matches its type ("Regardless of Hidden Power's actual damage category"). Have you confirmed this to be the case? Because the Counter/Mirror Coat interaction would indicate to me that Hidden Power is always a physical move prior to the physical/special split. --SnorlaxMonster 06:57, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

Yes, that was on purpose.

Damage calculation

Apart from Counter/Mirror Coat, Hidden Power seems to behave like a special move if its actual type is "special", i.e. it uses SpAtk etc. (While I believe that's the straightforward assumption anyway, Showdown and Psypokes also say that.) Of course I haven't personally tested or confirmed every detail, but I did test Reflect in-game in Generation III, and it didn't affect a Hidden Power Water. (And I read the Crystal disassembly, which was part of the reason why I investigated it in the first place.)

Actual damage category

While in every other case it is obviously Counter<=>physical<=>Atk/Def etc., it apparently is not here, and I guess it's not my/our decision to "define" what Hidden Power's actual damage category is in that case. (That's why I wasn't saying "it's a special move BUT" nor "it's a physical move BUT", but instead "regardless of what its category is".)

So yeah, I guess it was also my intention to implicitly imply that Counter and Mirror Coat are weird, not the rest. Especially when in Generation III, they do work "as expected" for Weather Ball. Nescientist (talk) 10:01, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

Gender ratios

Oh, I see what my mistake was. I was thinking there were (x-1) values strictly less than x, when in fact there are x because you have to count 0 as well. I guess that makes the percentages you added the correct ones. I was thinking they were inconsistent with the prose. --SnorlaxMonster 15:44, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, it's easy to get lost in inequalities and zeros. I assume the "nominal ratios" are canon and you know where they originated, but could you maybe revisit the "skewing" part in the prose (possibly just delete it)? As a side note, I think the prose is odd post-GenV (for the most part because you seem to have just squeezed it onto the personality value page, for lack of a better place, so maybe it's as good as it gets)!? Nescientist (talk) 16:12, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

The nominal ratios are what seem to be the clear intentions from the code, but off-by-one errors in Gen II and Gen III-V mean it's not-quite-right. They're probably stated in some guidebook, but I couldn't find them. I guess the skewing part could just be deleted, since it's fairly obvious from the table the way in which they are skewed.

Yeah, I think the personality value page is the best place for that right now, but it might be worth going into more detail elsewhere on the page, since this bug means certain personality values are impossible. Perhaps the impacts of Cute Charm should also be mentioned on the personality value page in the same section. --SnorlaxMonster 17:06, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

I can't see that (from the code either of us sourced), and/or the intention might be 1:8 instead of 1:7.

So, that personality value part is true, and gender is based on the PID? (Because from looking at the rest of the page, I thought it had no relation at all.) In that case, sure, somewhere on that page is best. I have no idea how Cute Charm works, though. Nescientist (talk) 17:37, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

For Cute Charm, I was specifically referring to Generation IV, in which it forces one of several possible PIDs (note that the groups in that article are incorrectly divided). In Emerald, apparently nature is generated first, then if Cute Charm activates the game generates PIDs until one satisfies both the required Nature and gender.

Regarding the intended gender ratios, consider Generation III: If the comparison was simply "strictly greater than" rather than "greater than or equal to" makes the Pokémon male, then all of the ratios would exactly match the nominal ratios. To me, this is a clear off-by-one error that demonstrates what the intent is. 1:7 is a bit trickier since it was introduced in Gen VI, but it seems to be aware of the off-by-one error but overcompensated, since if the threshold was one lower it would be 1:7 (ignoring the restricted domain). Since 256 is not divisible by 9, it's not possible to properly implement 1:8 without restricting the domain. --SnorlaxMonster 05:37, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Oh, I don't doubt their true intention was "1:1" etc., but I was thinking about whether it was "official".

For Litleo/Pyroar, if that threshold value is indeed 225 (as suggested by ScireM's pastebin), that would not be symmetrical (i.e., "1:7"+"7:1" don't add up to 254); for an "intended" 1:7, they should've chosen 223. If SciresM just made a typo during calculation (or I fail to understand their calculations) and the threshold value is 223, then I would agree the intention was "1:7", but then our values are wrong. I don't know which it is. (Do you?)

Thanks for explaining Cute Charm. (But: does it have an effect on PID post-GenV? If you say gender and PID are still interrelated, then it should have!? I also realized that you actually recently added the restriction on PIDs, so that's a thing that depends on the gender post-GenV? I'm so confused there, maybe you could provide a code snipplet or something that shows the interrelation?) Nescientist (talk) 09:12, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

I don't think 1:7 was intending symmetry, it's just they tried to actually make it 1:7 after accounting for the existing off-by-one error, but ended up overcompensating. I believe that the currently listed threshold is accurate to the games, my point was about developer's intent.

My guess would be that in Gen V, if Cute Charm activates, it just regenerates the wild Pokémon's PID until it is the appropriate gender. I'm fairly sure it doesn't work the same way as Gen IV, because it's no longer possible to abuse it.

Regarding the restriction on PIDs due to gender, that was SciresM's recent discovery, and it applies from Generation VI onward. It does not occur in Generation V. --SnorlaxMonster 12:44, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Wait, is the theory that they're smart enough to understand they're off by one, but then they're not smart enough to actually add one, to understand that 224/256 is exactly 7/8 and 225/256 is not, or to fix it for any of the other ratios? Not a theory I'm particularly enthusiastic about.

I didn't know they also discovered (or knew) that the buggy gender determination influences PID generation (GenVI+); again, I presumed they were independent.

Not into Cute Charm, but it would make sense to be rolling back to Emerald behavior, basically. Nescientist (talk) 15:00, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

(resetting indent)Wait, we actually have the whole thing (for breeding). It seems PID doesn't depend on gender (nor the other way around), so I will remove that entire part. For the gender ratio, I went to the talk page hoping someone has a guide book that confirms either "1:7" or "1:8" for Litleo/Pyroar. While doing that, I also noted that the section directly above mine confirms the independence for Gen VI. Nescientist (talk) 13:28, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Rollout/consecutively executed moves

Now that you say I'm wrong, I realize I'm working indirectly off separate pieces of information and may have jumped to conclusions about which one was right. Let me explain my reasoning, and maybe you can tell me what should be fixed and where.

I was doing some testing with Metronome in Moon (no interesting results there yet), and during the course of that, it happened to call Uproar while there were two foes on the field (thanks to one wild Pokemon calling for help). Uproar remained locked in, as the category description says it should. On the other hand, I was consulting our page for Metronome and saw that it says:

In Generation VII, if Metronome calls a multi-turn move such as Rollout or Dig, the move will activate on the first turn, but will fail and end the move on the next turn, with the exception of Geomancy.

Since this clearly contradicted the behavior I saw Uproar exhibit, I assumed this meant Rollout does not "continue to execute" as the category describes. That was probably the wrong conclusion to jump to, now that you point it out. But I'm not sure where else the problem lies. Perhaps the sentence on Metronome's page is wrong? Can you help figure this out? Thanks. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 21:36, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Sure, I'll try. Problem is, I actually don't really understand what the Metronome sentence is trying to say. Is it, if you happen to call Dig, you go underground, and next turn Dig fails???

The way I see it, there are three different kinds of "multi-turn moves", i.e. moves with a charging turn, moves that require recharging, and consecutively executed moves. I really don't know why Dig would be affected by something but Geomancy would not—they're both moves with a charging turn. My best guess is that someone just happened to have Rollout miss on the second turn it was locked in, and jumped to wrong conclusions (i.e., that this was Metronome's fault).

So, if your tests confirm my theory and contradict that line (or, what it's supposed to say), I would suppose you just remove that line!? Nescientist (talk) 22:12, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Heat Crash and Heavy Slam

Did you intend to change the powers for the intervals when you edited Heat Crash and Heavy Slam? From your edit summary, it seems like this might just be a copypasta from Electro Ball. UPC supports the old values. --SnorlaxMonster 10:02, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Whaaat? No no noooo. Copypasta indeed, thanks. Change, change, change! ... <jedi>You never saw that.</jedi> Nescientist (talk) 16:44, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Regarding Gene

I actually don't know if his deck page will be kept yet, so I have been hesitant to go to the trouble of moving it in case we end up deleting it anyway. If the decision is made to keep it, I'll deal with it then. The reason it might be considered unneeded is because there is a page for Rock Club, yet another for Gene himself, and the third being his decklist directly - and all feature decklists. We'll eventually update the club pages overall with the GB2 deck names, and also add the decklists to each club member's respective page. Most likely, the specific decklist pages that will be kept (or created, as applicable) will be the ones I am currently collecting data for, which are the autodeck ones - and about 20-30 of these 76 decks, coincidentally, are held by NPCs (there are, I'm hearing, 154 total decks in the game between the two autodeck sets and all NPCs).

Nonetheless, I do thank you for pointing it out, and I'll keep it in mind in case the specific deck page is kept. =) CycloneGU (talk) 19:44, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Haha, there were just too many options for me to handle (propose to move the deck page, rewrite its intro, propose to delete it; move the trivium, duplicate it, ...), so I thought I'll just give you a hint. :P

Also, IMO adding the raw Japanese is pretty crucial for a Japanese-only game; for example, if I were to play the game in the future, expect me to enter "いわのうえにも３ねんデッキ" in the search bar, rather than "3 years on a Rock Deck" or "Rocky Summit Deck". That's more of a concern to me than where Gene's/ゲンゾウ's deck might actually end up—it's probably the most straightforward course of action for those who can read/type kana, but I guess it's not easy to foresee if you can't. I just want to stress that, even if you're already aware.

I don't know how desparately you need that, but I may be able to extract kanas from screenshots. However, there will probably be better choices for translation requests in most cases. Nescientist (talk) 22:55, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

For the autodeck listings, I actually have all of the Japanese names right here. I'm not worried about updating them on the listings in my userspace because, when we create the pages or otherwise place the deck info where it goes, we can pull them from there anyway. All the same, I don't mind it for the four Rock Club decks, though the prose I've written will most likely never end up on a page, anyway.

As a side note, the Japanese NPC deck names are all right here with a pastebin of just the decknames that are apparently NOT in the autodeck machines over here. I'm just choosing a set order for going through all of the decks, starting with the autodeck ones because every single deck is easy to pull the data for right from the machine. I use the RAM dump to find the decklists from NPCs, and I'll use this to match to the autodeck listings by searching my own Notepad copy when the time comes. Even once I pull all the deck listings, though, we have to figure out how to use it. LOL CycloneGU (talk) 23:58, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

See, I knew you had a plan! Sounds promising. Nescientist (talk) 16:56, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

"Raises" / "Rises" on Embargo

I know what you mean, but I personally think it make more sense to be "raises by one stage". However, due to consistency with the other articles, which all uses "raises". So I rather put as "raises" than "rises". Correct me if I'm wrong. — Ruixiang95 00:13, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

I see your problem, and I had guessed that was the reason you undid that edit.

However, I believe if it's actually an error, we really shouldn't spread it for consistency. It may not be a groundbreaking error that needs us to go crazy "OH MY GOD FIX EVERYWHERE NOW!!!!", but it's still something I believe we shouldn't be un-fixing. (It's also not something I believe is "worth the edit" just to fix, but I'm pretty sure I've "corrected" it on pages I was working on, and pretty sure others did as well—so I imagine it really shouldn't be all the pages using "raise" consistently.)

Anyway, it's not something I care too much about. If you (still) do, feel free to move on and discuss this with others (or do whatever you think is appropriate), I won't be standing in your way.

I hope that soon I will be able to induce consistency when(/if) I'm finally ready to go through all move pages semi-automatically. (Probably the best idea is to remove the prose entirely, for most pages, at least). I hope we'll be there soon, so we can have consistency, correctness, and conciseness. Nescientist (talk) 16:56, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

IMO as well "raises" works better. (A couple others agree with me.) "Rises" is active, so it sounds like the stat has some sort of volition in the matter. To my knowledge, "raises" was used basically everywhere until about Gen VII when some people started changing it. Tiddlywinks (talk) 14:07, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

..."Raises" and "rises" are both in the active tense. Avoiding that would mean phrasing it "<stat> is raised." Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 14:36, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I misread Ruixiang's comment a bit and thought that was what they already said, it should be "is raised by", yes. People have pointed out that saying the stat raises is incorrect; somehow my brain may have been making the jump to the correct interpretation, it's never seemed a problem to me at all (and kind of still doesn't), but either way, "rises" is not preferable IMO. Tiddlywinks (talk) 14:52, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Possible typo?

Hi there. Someone has brought to my attention a possible typo on the damage page. Since you'd been working on the page extensively and I'm not sure if I'm even doing the calculations right, I was wondering if you knew the correct number. --Carmen★ (Talk | contribs) 19:54, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

I guess I introduced that typo when I recalculated the formula, but forgot to update the text as well. Thanks for catching it.

I've doublechecked, and 196 should be correct. FYI, as I've taken care that the formulas now do abide by math rules, all you really have to do is calculate in the order you usually would, always round down any non-integers you encounter along the way, and don't precalculate Modifier (the only real reason it's still separate is because it would increase the formula's width). Nescientist (talk) 11:46, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing it! It turns out my mistake was using the precalculated value of Modifier, though I'd say having the precalculated value there makes it a bit misleading. Perhaps that value could be taken out, or the formulas could be combined but just separated into two lines (though I'm not sure how that would look)? --Carmen★ (Talk | contribs) 18:01, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

I think it would imply we get rid of "Modifier" entirely. That said, I'd probably support it. (I have briefly tried pluggin in some formulas, and the best solution I could come up with is to still use two images each regardless, which we would need to somehow align on-wiki. As in, the images would look similar, coz they wouldn't change much. Modifier all on its own is about where my desired maximum length is.) Nescientist (talk) 16:45, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

TCG2 Deck Names

The deck names I'm inserting on each club member's page are the proper translations, and someone who has helped with a lot of other Japanese translation work on the site is assisting me with this to make sure the names are correct. If you see something inconsistent somewhere (such as a name I don't correct in the prose), go ahead and fix it. For now, I've just added the club member deck names to the actual club member pages and in the tables at the club pages, but there may have to be other corrections made in places I haven't looked (I plan to also rewrite the prose on the pages eventually when I know more about the TCG1 game). If you have any questions please reach out to me as it's possible I may make a mistake myself, but as a starting point assume the 38 or so TCG2 deck names on the 32 member pages and 8 club pages (I still have to add Murray's; I'll get to that, but they're already on the club page) is correct. CycloneGU (talk) 05:31, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. I have to say I really like how you're doing this transparently!

The issue I pointed out at Club Master Isaac isn't that any translation isn't correct. They all seem to be okay on their own, but the set of translations isn't consistent. So this is all about context.

...And I might lack context to properly synchronize them. (And in this case you guys probably initially didn't realize you should.) If I understand correctly, the GB1 translation team (officially) translated じばくでビリビリデッキ as "Zapping Selfdestruct Deck". (Correct?) I'd prefer if we could translate the Japanese the same, not "Zap by Selfdestruct Deck", as I think it's an appropriate direct translation. The GB2 term, ビリビリじばくデッキ, is almost the same, yet you added it as "Electric Suicide Deck". I think it's not wrong per se, and maybe there's a reason for you to do that (such as "that's a popular fandom translation" etc.), but if there is not (i.e., if it's just a sophisticated translation that is missing the GB1 context), then I'd rather use something along the lines of "Zapping Selfdestruct Deck", because the original Japanese is clearly referencing the GB1 deck name, while our current translations clearly (like, almost deliberately) are not.

If I happen to catch a similar case and I'm unsure what to do, I'll contact you directly, then? Nescientist (talk) 10:18, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

The difference with GB1 is tat there was an English release. Therefore, the English name is what we use. If any do not use the English name...I'll get to it eventually, possibly weeks from now. LOL I can move pages if I find something's incorrect. I may also have the translations checked on the GB1 Japanese, and have a page with all of the Japanese deck names to use as a starting point for that. So it can be checked later. CycloneGU (talk) 01:45, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Direct links

Usually we prefer direct links instead of redirects. Why are you making so many links to "super effective"? Tiddlywinks (talk) 13:21, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Mainly because it will always redirect to the most appropriate section on the most appropriate page. To add, you'd probably never see the "redirected from" message in this case anyway. (You may want to also read this.) I typically prefer direct links as well, but I don't think linking redirects is particularly evil either (if it's not [[Pikachu]] or something), and in this particular case, the redirect link seems to be the better option to me. Nescientist (talk) 16:17, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Question: what at all makes the redirect "better"? Tiddlywinks (talk) 19:11, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I can't really figure out what your intention is here. All I can really do is to repeat what I already said. (Do you perhaps not see I was always updating the actual link target?) Nescientist (talk) 11:21, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

You said, "the redirect link seems to be the better option to me." Why? (If you have to repeat yourself exactly, I'd appreciate if you do that to explicitly answer this, because for my part, I can't tell what it is you'd be intending to repeat.) Tiddlywinks (talk) 14:49, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

The important part is "because it will always redirect to the most appropriate section on the most appropriate page." Direct links don't have that property. Nescientist (talk) 14:57, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

That's not true? At all? If you link to a redirect that points to page#section, linking page#section instead still puts you exactly at the right place. Tiddlywinks (talk) 15:11, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

(resetting indent)No, sorry, you've lost me. Isn't that my point? And what is it that's not true?

Let's maybe get to the concrete case: linking {{DL|Damage|type effectiveness|super effective}} links to a non-existing section, while both [[super effective]] and {{DL|Type|type effectiveness|super effective}} link to exactly the right place. Currently. However, consider

1. "Type effectiveness" get its own article;
2. "Super effective" gets its own article;
3. the section is renamed "type interaction stuff";
4. the section is subdivided and one subsection is "super effective";
5. the section is moved to another article (e.g. to "Damage#Type effectiveness");
6. "Type" itself is renamed "Element".

"Super effective" (the redirect itself) would need to be relinked to the proper section anyway. Nescientist (talk) 20:06, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

So...in short, it looks like what you've been trying to say is that, I guess (although I don't like guessing), redirects are better because you only have to update the redirect(s) if the target page/section changes, as opposed to updating some amount more of direct links. (I guess that's what you were trying to say when you said they "always" point to the right place, but there's a gigantic logical gap in the wording you used. On its face it's even false, which made it additionally confusing (because they have to be updated by someone, they're not "always" automagically correct if something changes).)

The problem remains that that's still not what we've done as a rule, and as far as I know what our policy is. If yours is okay, are we just going to abandon all restrictions on redirects? Should we? Or if not, what are the circumstances in which it's okay, and why?

(Fun fact also: if scripts are turned off, I believe redirects don't work beyond getting you to the page--any section target is more or less ignored.)

As far as your list of possibilities: to start, I think it's unlikely type effectiveness would get its own page, but more, I think it's certainly much less likely that super effective would get its own page (when it's definitely a small subset of type effectiveness). In general, I also think that type is a page that shouldn't change overmuch. (It may also have been hypothetical, but the last suggestion is pretty much just ridiculous. The third was bad enough too, but I think even hypotheticals should be reasonable.) So, personally, I'm not sure you "need" to link to the redirects anyway. Tiddlywinks (talk) 21:52, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Correct. (Though I didn't generalize quite the way you did, I basically said that that's the main reason why I preferred direct links in that case.)

I don't do it as a rule either, I used common sense, and I plan to do so in the future. I don't think there is such a policy—if there is, I haven't found it. Anyway, in my opinion, a lack of a rule isn't necessarily a flaw in policy, and in this case it's probably wise. I don't see a "problem" in doing sensible things—rather, it is what policy should aim to facilitate.

I'm not entirely sure, but I believe it's a MediaWiki limitation; even directly searching for redirects (e.g. "type effectiveness") with and without scripts results in different URLs. (Consequently, reloading cannot remove the "redirected from" message without scripts, but it removes it with scripts. So technically, it may even be a Mediawiki achievement that redirects can display the target page without scripts at all.)

The reason lies in the fact that I used this example to illustrate, yes, because we weren't really on the same page before; I don't want to rename "type". And I don't think you need to link to redirects either, but again, in this case, it seems to be the better option to me. Nescientist (talk) 15:02, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Not all policy is explicitly collected somewhere. (I don't think that's entirely a simple task.)

I've asked and I've currently received the advice that if a redirect points to a base page, the direct link should be used over the redirect, but if the target is a section, linking the redirect should be okay. I can accept this policy. On that note, then: happy editing. Tiddlywinks (talk) 15:39, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Please, why do people justify redirects by just making them lead to the desired section of a page. In my philosophy, you just use the {{DL}} template in those situations. Seriously, it's not that hard. Redirects should be avoided at all costs if possible. So my opinion about this "justification" or whatever is an absolute no, no, no, no, no, no, NO! --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 16:29, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

PS. Sorry for the angry rant. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 16:35, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Nescientist, your reasoning makes it appear that you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Why would you assume that super effectiveness would get moved or get an article? Don't get too optimistic. Even if the section was renamed, the link can just be changed. No harm done.--ForceFire 05:58, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

You clearly don't understand. I don't assume that, and I didn't suggest there was any harm done.

It is my reasoning, I can't help but state it when asked, and I can't stop it from giving you that impression, apparently. I tried to have this at mole hill level at virtually every opportunity that matters, and I don't understand what makes you essentially resurrect this discussion. Nescientist (talk) 15:51, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

I personally agree with Force Fire. And if I may add my own opinion, already presented in an crude rather crude manner above, redirects should be avoided. Just use the {{DL}} template to create a direct link to the desired section. Just as easy, and less redirect links. If "super effective" gets its own page one day, which I personally doubt, you can freely go add these links, but right now, I think that you're just creating loads of unnecessary redirect links for no good reason other than "Because I feel like this way is better." Please, learn to respect other people's ways of thinking. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 12:42, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Ok, I'm now convinced that you're trying to discuss. So am I, then. (It's important you understand that—I am not your enemy.)

Not sure what exactly you're agreeing with or why; I already said I'm trying hard not to be a rebel (and, no offense, but I believe I'm the ultimate authority on my thinking), that I don't expect "super effective" to get its own page either, and that I didn't suggest there was any harm done.

If you think I'm doing it because I want to show off or just have it my way, you are mistaken. I honestly believe they're not "unnecessary", but that I do have "good reason". I'm not the only one who disagrees that redirects should be avoided at all cost: Wikipedia disagrees (but they're Wikipedia), TTEchidna once disagreed in allcaps, SnorlaxMonster disagrees in this particular case, and even the MoS sometimes requires linking to redirects. (I'm not doing it because I'm lazy either, but after careful consideration.)

That said, we could all be misled. But respecting others' opinions doesn't mean to blindly share them; it means being open for arguments, which I believe I am. Of course you may share your opinion, and you may try to convince me there's reason to back down, if you do have arguments (and if you so desire). But be aware that any sequence of "NO"s just won't cut it.

This isn't a personal thing, and I hope you can at least be okay with my opinion? Hope you understand. Sincerely, Nescientist (talk) 15:14, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Testing

Just regarding your comment on Roaming Pokémon: testing is absolutely not impossible. If you think you can't "prove" it wrong because you can't be sure whether paralysis was supposed to activate, that's kind of an excuse. You can easily do it enough to reasonably rule out that possibility—I'm sure I've even seen you do exactly that sort of thing for other effects. I hope you won't use that as an excuse somewhere else to lean on something when it's being questioned by someone else.

As far as paralysis/infatuation preventing fleeing, I've traced AND tested those effects and confirmed you're correct. I didn't think it'd be easy to trace, and it did take me a while of thorough examination to figure out where fleeing was checked in relation to the check for paralysis, but I did find that EnemyTurn_EndOpponentProtectEndureDestinyBond leads to the paralysis check and comes after TryEnemyFlee. I also tested paralysis and confirmed that it doesn't prevent fleeing. (I wouldn't say that infatuation is "nonsense" exactly =P , but you're right insofar as it doesn't apply to the roamers. ...Although it would have been a relevant concern for other fleeing Pokemon—but it won't be any different from paralysis, so it's not an issue anyway now.)

Anyway, testing is always a very good idea, since it ensures sure you're not missing some unexpected path for things to trace through or case for it to hit. Or at least, if someone is questioning it, then IMO it's the responsible thing to do. Tiddlywinks (talk) 17:36, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

You're right, of course testing is the most reliable method. And no, I won't misuse it. The proof thing may have been some kind of excuse in this case, and if it was, it primarily was in order to get infatuation out of there (while I'm currently unable to test). I did trace the exact same thing you mentioned (probably more), so as always, I was confident that it wasn't just a guess. (Also, my opinion piece you didn't ask for: I believe there shouldn't be double standards for what to remove/replace, so if I was in your position, I wouldn't have undone my edit, unless I seriously questioned its validity.)

As for this specific case and why I even undid your edit without testing: Even if I was mistaken (which, again, I basically ruled out), I would've still removed nonsense without adding any (=improvement).

In short, I believe I'm not careless, and I do like testing. And thanks for testing! :) Nescientist (talk) 19:11, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

I was mostly concerned that you said it was impossible to test, when it certainly wasn't/isn't.

I didn't have any sort of double-standard when undoing your edit. I absolutely did question its validity. (I can't really imagine why you thought I did otherwise.) Having learned that the flee "priority" was so weird, I believed it was well worth testing thoroughly. You just pointed to "only these two things stop fleeing outright" and glossed right over the other two completely. You gave no indication that you had any credible idea that the other two truly didn't affect it at all beyond presumably just "they're not listed there", which is not strictly adequate. Tiddlywinks (talk) 19:29, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Haha, no! I said it is impossible to prove via testing (and we agreed there's a decent amount of cheating in that statement).

I think you're saying I could've said something in the edit summary? You're right (and I tried to do so in the second one). Nescientist (talk) 19:39, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Good faith

I honestly can't really imagine why you think I had an "attitude" from my reversion on Poni Meadow. I'd just like to remind you that assuming good faith should be a basic courtesy.

FWIW, I noticed the issue you mentioned this time before, but I didn't realize until now that that was a tooltip on the cell; I thought it was a transient bug of the "N/A" tooltip, since it worked fine when I hovered over it afterward. I understand your edit now. Tiddlywinks (talk) 01:02, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

(Not sure if we still need the disclaimer, but as always, no offense intended.)

Um, thanks for the reminder, but why in the world would you think I didn't assume good faith?

The "attitude" I'm concerned about is that, at least in my opinion, some of your actions, in particular some of your recent actions I encountered, show (or at least convey) a narrow focus on what your own opinion or agenda is. Like, why is your first instinct that my edit (or anyone's, for that matter) is not well thought of and pointless? I even mentioned hovertext, and I guess my instinct would rather be to assume "Huh, they must be using some obscure North Korean browser!?" or something. And all that aside, I think edit summaries needn't be this.. definite!? It suggests or implies that you objectively know better, which, in this case, you objectively didn't. Nescientist (talk) 16:57, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

If "good fatih" doesn't fit for you...I don't know. The long and short of it, I suppose, is that "Drop the attitude" is pretty rude. If you have an issue such as above, the appropriate venue is a talk page.

To your actual issue... I don't suppose you want me to just assume that everyone's right and leave edits alone?

Can you tell me, could I boil your basic issue down to, you don't like that I don't go to people's talk pages to ask for clarification and instead just revert? Tiddlywinks (talk) 18:00, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

My intention was to not make a big deal out of it. And I certainly didn't want to sound rude. (Also, I did say "please"..)

By "the actual/basic issue" you mean what I just said I'm concerned about? No, I don't want you to, but I'd much prefer if you're first instinct isn't as much in the "I'm right, the other is wrong" direction.

No, being bold is often good and there's probably too much talk between the two of us already. But if you're already at a revert (or at the point where you disregard/neglect another opinion), maybe try to word the edit summary in a way that shows you're open-minded!? I don't really know how to word it; the same thing I said above. Nescientist (talk) 18:28, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

If you didn't want to make a deal of it, then, honestly...you needed to be much clearer than just vaguely saying "drop the attitude".

As far as I'm concerned, I can always be wrong when I make a reversion (at the very least in the first instance). I'm sorry if my mind doesn't always work around to the most absolutely careful wording possible, but that's just not in me every hour of every day. You'll just have to forgive me for being human. (Perhaps this comes closer to illustrating what I meant by "assume good faith". Don't assume I'm not open-minded. ...Perhaps be a bit more "open-minded" yourself. =P ) Tiddlywinks (talk) 18:47, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

I don't want to be (or sound) patronizing, especially when you're a staff member and I'm not, so.. But point taken.

To be honest, your edit summaries often somewhat.. intimidate me to rather not challenge it, or prepare for a lengthy discussion; you sometimes just seem so self-assured and.. final, almost as if you must of course be objectively right. (Plus, I believe I'm super not sensible, so others may probably be intimidated more easily, or take it personally.) I for one can't differentiate cases where my suspicion is justified and you do care from those you just do a casual edit. It's good to be reassured that this is not, nor has it been, your intention or a general "attitude". :) Nescientist (talk) 19:33, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Confusion/Hustle

FYI, I said right in the edit summary that Hustle is already in stat increasing Abilities. I.e., either that row belongs in your tentative section or you have to be okay with Hustle being exactly as confirmed as, say, Overgrow. Either way, Hustle shouldn't have a separate row. Tiddlywinks (talk) 19:59, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Oops, I didn't realize that and overlooked that. Thanks. Nescientist (talk) 23:12, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Fur Coat

I just noticed this edit. I don't understand the reasoning given at all. Can you explain in more detail? Tiddlywinks (talk) 12:39, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

It's basically a test whether something "affects damage" (as in, directly, like damage×modifier at the end), or something else deeper within the damage formula (power/Defense/..):

Whatever the inner part may be (if you make a breakpoint before STAB, basically), for a super-effective STAB move, it will be multiplied by 1.5 and then by 2 on integers. If it were again divided by 2 after that (as in, "Fur Coat halves damage", literally), it would need to be some integer that gives 2 when multiplied with 1.5 and is then floored, which is impossible. So that division needs to be before that breakpoint.

"[A]ll that text simplified to Defense anyway" just means that that explains the same phenomena with fewer assumptions and less words (which is because Psyshock, Psystrike, Secret Sword, and moves that deal direct damage do not use Defense). Nescientist (talk) 13:32, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

I felt like I might see a glimmer of what you mean for a moment, but then I came back to my original thought: if it's halving damage, then if you got 2 HP damage, that just means before Fur Coat it was 4 HP damage. I don't see how more damage is "hard" (primarily at a gut level, at least).

Your explanation is ultimately a little complicated to me. This is what I'm taking from it. (I'm looking at the damage page and presuming Fur Coat would come among the "other" modifiers.)

• If STAB is basically the last modifier applied to the damage, then that's (say) floor( dmg * 3/2 ) = 2 (where dmg is an integer).
• If Fur Coat is the last modifier applied to the damage, then that's (say) floor( floor( dmg * 3/2 ) / 2 ) = 2 (where dmg is an integer).

I mean, long story short, the only difference between these cases is a factor of 2 in dmg. I don't understand how you can say that it must be the former (and presume that Fur Coat was already accounted for in dmg there).

In fact, you mentioned something being impossible above. As near as I can tell, the former case is impossible with integer arithmetic: 1*1.5 = 1.5 and 2*1.5 is 3, neither of which round down to 2. By contrast, 3*1.5 = 4.5, which rounds down to 4, which you can divide by 2 to arrive at 2 HP of damage if Fur Coat halves "damage".

Also, I wasn't really concerned with the last part. But saying Fur Coat halves Defense isn't assuming anything but that the description accurately reflects the mechanics. In the absence of other data, that's not "assuming", that's just all you can do. Certainly it's not guaranteed to be correct, but you have to do some investigation before you can make that conclusion. Tiddlywinks (talk) 14:08, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, it's complicated. (But, um, did you just forget the super effective part?)

• If its among "other", then it should be floor( floor( dmg * 3/2 ) * 2) / 2 = 2 (which simplifies to floor( dmg * 3/2 ) = 2, where there is no "dmg" integer that fulfils that)
• If its not, then it should be floor( floor( dmg * 3/2 ) * 2 ) = 2 (which "dmg" = 1 solves)

Also, from my understanding of their wording, "boosts/reduces damage" has always been a statement that may technically be "boosts/reduces Attack/Defense/power"; it's just more general. (Trying to answer what I think you asked, but I'm not sure I understand your last paragraph; if anything's still unclear, please reword.) Nescientist (talk) 14:37, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

I did forget supereffective. "STAB" is very easy to see.

It looks like you reversed the bullet points from the order I had above... But OK, I see how that goes then. (It's honestly not my favorite method because we're still kind of working around a blind box—meaning who knows if we mistook something or other—but it's what we have.)

For the last part, I was just making the point that "All that text simplified to Defense anyway" would not, by itself, have been reason to change the description that was there. Tiddlywinks (talk) 15:24, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Silph Co.

Can I know why did you undo my edit on Silph Co.? It was very inappropriate to base judgement purely on Exeggcute's movepool when Lance's were using Dragonite with move out of his possible set, even worse when the editor forgot every other instance of the same Exeggcute which was supposed to have identical information.--Rocket Grunt (Report To Me) 23:42, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Um, no. Sooo...

1. Why did you undo 01ff86d1's edit in the first place?
2. Because based on their edit summary, they saw that Exeggcute use PoisonPowder. Entirely sufficient.
3. I don't think it was inappropriate, and I didn't base it purely on Exeggcute's movepool.
4. Lance doesn't have to do anything with that edit, but yes, his Dragonite is a special case obviously. Some select Trainers' Pokémon have special moves, yes, but Blue, at Silph Co., only when the starter was Charmander, and his Exeggcute really don't.
5. When Blue's starter was Squirtle, his Exeggcute is Lv35 instead of Lv38, at which point it hasn't learned PoisonPowder. (And even if it had, 01ff86d1's edit would still be correct.)

Also, new sections should have a title, and you could have waited for a response instead of undoing the same edit (by two different editors) for a second time. Nescientist (talk) 17:29, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I've checked the game. Exeggcute indeed has Poison Powder and I was the only one to do that. Both of you just assumed that it has to be which is the a bad way to provide information about the game.--Rocket Grunt (Report To Me) 19:30, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Their edit summary read "I have observed that Exeggcute's moveset contains PoisonPowder (..)". It couldn't be clearer.

They saw an error, then fixed an error. Nothing wrong here.

Then you undid that edit repeatedly, along with false claims ("you should change both Exeggcute's movesets" / "well, this is incorrect"), came here to rant at me a little, and after I calmly explained to you in detail, you just ignore that, falsely claim we didn't check and were assuming, and pretend to be a hero for doing the same thing that we started off with?

..yeah, whatever. (Meaning: I do not intend to discuss this any further.) Nescientist (talk) 21:04, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Nescientist and the other user were in the right here. Team Rocket Grunt, I advise you to pay close attention to edit summaries, as the original user did say they confirmed it and confirmed it even further by checking Exeggcute's movepool. Checking the movepool is a viable way to make sure information is correct, as the game uses the four most recent moves a (wild/trainer) Pokémon can learn at a specific level as its moveset (and Exeggcute would know PoisonPowder by level 38).--ForceFire 02:19, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Transfer-only moves

I noticed you and sumwun were in a sort of campaign to get a section in Pokémon's pages to list moves it can only know if it came from an earlier generation, so I figured you might be interested in this. I have been thinking about having something like that in Bulbapedia for a while now, and I just created a page in my userspace with an exemple of the template that might be used for that. It's no big deal, I basically adapted the move tutor template, but it looks like a better way to organize it than some other versions I've seen.

If you find that useful, feel free to bring any suggestions and eventually correct some mistake I may have made.

Also, about the chances of having the "transfer-only moves" section in Pokémon's pages, when talking to admins or other staff that feel reluctant about this, a suggestion would be to tell them that the whole section could be under a hide/show button, so only those interested would see it. Suic12- (talk) 14:43, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Alright, this is awesome. I'll take my time to evaluate all of this over the course of the weekend.

Anyway, right off the bat, I don't remember any admin actually opposing this, I think they just realized how it's super hard to compile a list (like: it's not worth it). Maybe adding to this, I'm not really "in a sort of campaign" to get it (or to make it), but I was just stressing how I think it is sensible and worthwhile. Actually, I'm not as invested ever since my last campaign (among other things) went not too well.

Next initial thought: I don't like hide/show buttons. Not in general, and probably not here; it's (almost) as important as those other moves, and for learnset pages, it would be at the end of the page anyway.

Also, without having looked at your template, I kinda imagine that it would probably need several such templates, one per generation, such that the template for GenV learnset pages would only display the columns III and IV, for example. (My thought process never made it very far, though, so I think I never thought of a way to display anything.) Maybe you could enhance your userspace page with what Bulbasaur (Pokémon)/Generation V learnset would look like!? (I also didn't examine what existing templates there are, or how suitable they would be, but I intend to over the course of the weekend.)

Also, there's User:Tiddlywinks/Transfer, and if that's mainspaced, it would be a much better link target than the inter-gen template. That's my initial thoughts. Nescientist (talk) 18:22, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Indeed, the way it is now, each generation would need a different template (except gen III, obviously). Two templates, actually. The one I linked here needs this one to work, plus a footer template I didn't bother to make (it could probably be shared among generations), just used raw code for now. Maybe it wouldn't be so hard to create another parameter to display only the boxes for the corresponding generation, I'll still think about that. Anyway, I'll get to work on the Generation V learnset version, it won't need a lot of changes.

One thing that would happen is that, since generations I, II, and IV only have one other generation each they can receive Pokémon from, the "Generations" column and the colored boxes would be useless, and could just be removed (maybe have the section header be "By transfer from Generation <number>").

The hide/show button wouldn't be my first option as well, just in case it might help reach a consensus.

About how hard it is, I agree it would be a lot of work, but all the information we need is already here, so most of the work could be simplified by having a program compare the learnsets in each case.

Tiddlywinks's page also looks better to me, didn't know about it before. I realized the lack of an article like that when looking for a page to link to.

Well... Thanks for the feedback. I'll keep you up to date if I change any major things. Suic12- (talk) 22:28, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

I think I do like most of it, there's surprisingly many good ideas in there. (I guess the template coding could potentially be optimized, but I wouldn't do it without improving at least the move tutor template in a similar way.)

The one thing that I don't fully understand is why did you exclude event moves? In my "what can <species> know" centric thinking, I would exclude GenI and GenII event moves at later generations' learnsets, because those cannot be transferred, but I would include all other event moves, because those can be (or could have been) transferred (unless I'm mistaken, of course). I would probably explain the GenI/II event-moves exclusion in the footer, and one could think of marking the others with a double dagger, i.e. the whole move/row. (I was unable to find a case where a move is event-only in one, but not in another generation; but it could exist. I think different color shades wouldn't work, so my best bet would be two entries then.)

As for Generations I, II, and IV, your idea sounds good. It wouldn't hurt to sketch one of those as well. (Briefly, in an attempt to get consistent headings, my best idea was to put "These moves can only be obtained when transferred from Generation III" within the header for those, but I doubt I'd like it.)

And then I also thought what was still needed (i.e. excluding mainspacing Tiddlywinks' page), and came up with the following:

1. The missing templates, obviously.
2. A list of all transfer moves we need, per generation, potentially marking event-only moves. I don't have that, and it's super hard to create, and I couldn't do that without help. (I might have someone whom I can reach out to, though.)
3. A list of move parameters per generation, in the desired template format. Tackle, for example, would need to display a power of 35 in GenI, 50 in GenIV, 40 in GenVII, different accuracies, etc. That again is hard to create.
4. A way to automatically generate the desired additions, and a way to automatically edit them in. If my math is correct, it should be about 2*151+4*493+3*156+2*72+1*81=2967 pages to edit (give or take some special cases like Ditto and Wormadam), so it needs to be automated.
5. Since we're automating, we would also need a way to figure out which moves need to be bolded and italiced. That's not easy to create, there are some pitfalls.
6. Staff approval (of the templates).

I wouldn't be surprised if someone on Bulbapedia already had #3 or #5, maybe staff members or else this guy based on their talk page.

For the last four of those, I would recommend User:abcboy (who also operates BulbaBot), but it's still unclear whether that would work. And that's even if #1 and #2 are ready, and #3 and #5 exist or were newly created. Nescientist (talk) 19:36, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

The reason I didn't include event exclusive moves is just because I still wasn't sure on how to deal with them. They should be listed too, but that's the sort of thing that may require further/individual analysis. Trying to begin simple, your double dagger idea should work fine for moves that are always event exclusive. Maybe if a move happens to be event exclusive in only some of the generations, there could be an asterisk next to te gen number (like that: III*) and a different marking could be used for the move itself.

My idea now, to create examples of most possibilities, is to make one template for each generation (except III) and with each of those, one example from a Pokémon of each appliable generation. Don't know if the templates will be ready soon, but the rest of the examples from gen VII shouldn't take long.

About #2, trying to make the lists completely manually can be almost as hard as editing all pages manually. We probably will have to browse through the pages one by one, but maybe I can come up with a way that we can simply put the code from the learnset pages in a program that would give each Pokémon's list right away (supposing that most or all of the pages follow the same pattern). I don't know very much about programing, but I guess what I know may be just enough for that. Of course, if we can find anyone more skilled than me, it would be great. I may start working on that after I get the rest of the templates done.

For the rest of your items, I think there's not much more to be said until we see how far we can get on the first two ones. Looks like it's going to be really hard to get it all done, but still, let's see how it goes. Suic12- (talk) 03:30, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Okay, looking forward to it. If there are only few event moves that are not always event-exclusive, I guess I'd still prefer two rows (one of them with a double dagger) over your idea.

For #2, my main problem wouldn't be the program, but the crawling (and maybe the combination). But as I said, I might be able to reach out to someone.

Anyway, based on past experience, I'm not willing to get heavily involved in this before at least #4 and #6 are sorted out. (That's not to say I won't help, such as if you choose a different order and seek assistance.) I hope you understand.

Also, you might want to consider mentioning this discussion (or parts thereof) at that project page to receive wider attention. Nescientist (talk) 20:25, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

(resetting indent)It's been a while, but I just wanted to let you know that by now I have all templates that might be needed pretty much ready, along with one example for each situation (entry (1 and 2, 4, 5, 6, and 7) and header (1 and 2, 4, 5, 6, and 7) for each generation, and a footer).

I'm now working in a way to compare the learnsets of a Pokémon in different geneartions automatically, and it could be said I'm about halfway through getting this code ready. The major issue is that I would still need to mannually go through all Pokémon and learnset pages and save the html code as a txt file in my computer, which will take a while.

There are some things I would like your opinion about. First, I'm already considering event exclusive moves that are also exclusive to an earlier generation to be "transfer-only moves", but if an earlier gen move (event of not) is not exclusive only because the destionation gen has that move as event exclusive, I think it should still be considered a transfer-only move. Second, I'm not really sure on how to treat the difference between special moves and event moves, since some special moves are more event-like or one-of-a-kind, like dream world moves, while others are fairly common, such as island scan moves. There are also event moves that cannot be transferred, such as those exclusive to Spiky-eared Pichu and Cosplay Pikachu, so they may need to be listed beforehand. Suic (talk) 19:16, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Nice.

I'd still recommend abcboy.

Your first consideration is reasonable (although when you talked about "transfer-only" moves that was initially a bit misleading to me I guess). I guess I agree, it should be done that way (if only for a very complicated and niche reason, i.e. because not doing it would come with the drawback of implying that a moveset with the not-included move and another past-only move was not "legal", when in fact it could be).

I can't differentiate between what Bulbapedia considers special vs. event moves either, my guess is it's probably inconsistent (without having thoroughly analyzed). If I differentiated, I'd probably do it with "Can I get it with brand-new copies (or would I need to have done/received something in the past*)?", and then explain that in the footer (something like "could only be obtained in past generations through time-limited events")?

Yeah, moves that cannot be transfered should not be listed. (That certainly includes the whole bunch of Generation II moves for Generation I, and probably even some HM moves). Nescientist (talk) 17:37, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

Since you asked me to respond here, the list I have that I've been using to check move data I created in Excel and used regex to compare to what we currently have listed on the learnset pages, it should be noted though that it's still possible there are mistakes, any errors on the moves pages will still be present since that's where i pulled the data. --Spriteit (talk) 13:52, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer and for letting me know where you pulled it from. Anyway, could you publish it? I'd really like to have a complete list, and I (and anyone, really) could even correct mistakes if you created a user page or something (as I said, any format will do, such as a raw CSV export of the Excel file, or using your regexes to export it to learnlist templates directly). Nescientist (talk) 14:39, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Once I've finished my first pass over of the moves, which will be when all the Gen VII subpages are created, I'll post something to a subpages on my userpage. - Spriteit (talk) 22:02, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

For #3, see User:Nescientist/Movedata. Nescientist (talk) 16:04, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Location articles

I noticed you mentioned creating location articles in your userspace because you don't have all of the data. Just put them straight in the mainspace and mention whatever you're missing in {{incomplete}} tags. It's much easier to edit a page that's already there than make a whole page from scratch. --SnorlaxMonster 10:56, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

I'm probably mostly missing names, quality prose, and ideas to display new mechanics, so my concern was that it might look too sloppy; but okay, if I try my best, I'll have no regrets starting mainspace then. Nescientist (talk) 11:19, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

French Translator

Hey there, the staff were aware of that interview since it came to light and have discussed this before. We are currently not sure of the validity of the statements the translator claims, as they may just be his own opinions on what the Japanese names may be rather than him actually speaking with the original creators. A former staff member, who is Japanese, even debunked one of his origins at the time. So for now, please don't add them until we know for sure those are the actual origins the original creators intended. On the other hand, and French name origins he says is fine to add.--ForceFire 12:39, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Hm, I didn't do the most controversial ones (I had a similar feeling, but also realized Mew proves he clearly got some info), but fine, I'll stop completely then.

I assume the History of Pokémon edit you didn't mean to revert? Nescientist (talk) 13:00, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Rowlet

There's only been two starter Pokemon that are dual typed. And the trivia focuses in on starter Pokemon, so the trivia is only talking about 8 Pokemon. Then it goes on about losing one of its types, so it's talking about a dual type, of which there have only been two. So it's literally one out of two, making it not notable. And a single type becoming a different type isn't "losing" a type, heck the only Pokemon that "loses" a type is Gloom. The rest changes type.--ForceFire 13:25, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

That's not true, and/or totally irrelevant. The trivium is focusing on Pokémon that lose a type upon evolution. (Are you arguing Eevee isn't losing its Normal type? I mean, it's there and then it's gone..?)

I already said it's a general wording. There's no "dual" in there. If Charizard was Dragon/Flying, both Charmander and Rowlet would lose one of their types. Nescientist (talk) 14:24, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

The trivia calls out starter Pokemon, not just Pokemon in general. It's not as straight forward as you think it is. "Rowlet is the only starter Pokemon...". A specific group of Pokemon is being targeted here. "... to lose one of its type upon evolving". Again, ONE IF its type, meaning more than one, so a dual type. So the trivia is now specifically targeting dual type starter Pokemon. Of which there are only two. Bulbasaur and Rowlet. Charizard is not a starter Pokemon. Torterra is not a starter Pokemon. They are evolutions of starter Pokemon, but they are not starter Pokemon themselves. The player does not start with those Pokemon. It is not the same thing. Back to the trivia, it is literally saying "Rowlet is one of two starter Pokemon to "lose" its type upon evolution". One of two is simply not notable.

As for "losing" a type. Eevee doesn't lose a type. It's type changes. Dartrix does not lose a type. It's Flying type changes to a Ghost type. A Pokemon getting its type changed is not the same thing as losing a type. Gloom loses a type because it goes from dual type to single. Heck, dual types are technically the only Pokemon capable of losing a type.

You adding the trivia back the first time counts as a reversion, i.e. you've re-added the same point three times. I know what I'm talking about, and I have explained as clearly as possible why it's not notable. You also asked for "another reason" for the revert/ There is no other reason. There being only two dual type starter Pokemon is the only reason why it's not notable.--ForceFire 14:51, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, it is the only starter Pokémon that loses a type during their evolution journey. (Or make it "change" if you insist. It's "lose" to me, and according to the "to stop having something you had before" dictionary definition, but meh.)

One of its types just means one out of some countable number. It's not "one out of two".

Not sure why you're telling me Torterra isn't a starter, but to that I agree.

I haven't readded a point the first time, but I have turned it into a more general statement.

If you have no other reason and/or can't follow the logic I laid out here, let's just wait for abcboy to mediate here as well. Nescientist (talk) 15:11, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

I would say specifying that it's throughout the evolutionary line would make it notable, since the other starters gain a type upon evolution and that type usually sticks. And no, losing a type implies that it lost an attribute (for a lack of better wording), which Gloom only does. The rest still has a type, just a different one. Meaning, the type changes.

This first reversion, the one you made after I removed it the first time yesterday. I added that edit to the count. And don't make it out like I'm inept, I know what you're saying, but your reasoning did not make the trivia any more notable.--ForceFire 15:23, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for unprotecting the page.

Yes, that revision is the one where I made the statement more general, as evident from my edit summary and virtually everything else I said thereafter; it's more general that what you just added to the article (since it would apply my hypothetical Charmander above). Nescientist (talk) 15:34, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

... why should hypothetical's apply? If a new Pokemon comes along and makes it unnotable, then it'll be removed. Not that hard.--ForceFire 15:40, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

I mean that my wording is more general, i.e. it has a wider scope (since it would apply to my hypothetical Charmander, whereas yours wouldn't), so should be more notable. Nescientist (talk) 15:50, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Ah, you meant the whole losing/gaining/changing type thing. I think that boils down to personal opinion, for me, if a single type "loses" a type, then they'd have no type. 1-1=0. So I view a type change as just that, a change not a loss. I wouldn't mind a reword that gets rid of the gain/losing type mention (even if it's technically central to the trivia).--ForceFire 16:03, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

(resetting indent)Not sure what you're trying to do with that current wording, but Charmander also is a starter Pokémon whose typing does not remain the same throughout their evolutionary line. My original wording is the most general I can think of, and I think that should be used. "Rowlet is the only starter Pokémon whose final evolution does not have all of its types"/"does not retain all of its types until its final evolution" or something like that is the next best thing I can come up with, it's slightly less general but at least it is correct. Nescientist (talk) 17:01, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Edit warring

Please do not edit war, if you disagree with an edit, go to the talk page of the user that reverted you or the talk page of the article in dispute. Do not repeatedly revert that edit. I've already explained three times why it's not notable.--ForceFire 13:29, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

I've asked abcboy for arbitration. In my point of view, I just (politely) addressed your faulty logic in each of my TWO reverts. If you don't understand something, discuss it, seriously. Nescientist (talk) 14:24, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Previous gen learnlist template

I've just realized, it doesn't really handle crossgen evos. For example, Politoed isn't available in Generation I, but it can technically originate from Generation I and have moves by transferring from these games, since Poliwag and Poliwhirl exist in Generation I. Trying to change numbers right now to add the fields for G1 will add a link to non-existent moveset article in the header. Eridanus (talk) 22:41, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

What do you mean, you just realized? Like, we talked about it already, right?

I saw Akurochan already do these kind of edits, you're basically complaining that changing the header to have them actually pop up would be a bad idea (because it would introduce redlinks)? Like yeah, that's why I suggested at your talk page to think about another (sub-)section "via transferring Poliwhirl/<species> and then evolve".

That's what I can say that I hope helps, but anyway, I'm sorry but I'm not really sure what exactly your question is (if there is one), or what you want to discuss with me; maybe you can clarify, then I'm willing to help. Nescientist (talk) 12:27, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Whoops, honestly forgot about it. Basically, these moves have already been added but the template doesn't support them yet so you have rows that are just all white cells, like here, at least for some Pokémon. Eridanus (talk) 16:56, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Well, as I said, it was Akurochan who caused this - I don't even know how complete/correct it is. I feel I don't have the authority (nor the responsibility tbh) to do anything about it unilaterally either, other than agree with you that that's not ideal. Nescientist (talk) 22:37, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Anime series sections

Hey, I created a proposal of adding series sections in the articles for Pokémon species. For instance, adding "Pokémon the Series: Diamond and Pearl", "Pokémon the Series: Black & White", etc. sections in Pikachu.

This is being discussed here: Bulbapedia talk:Editor's Hub#Pokémon pages with anime series sections. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 13:25, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Yup, noted. (Quite sure I had actually already seen that.) Nescientist (talk) 13:38, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Zacian

What had happened in this edit was that I was intending to delete trivia that ForceFire deleted several days ago. I had left the Zacian page open in a tab while the wiki was locked intending to delete that, so from that open tab (which still had that trivia on it) I edited the trivia section and blindly deleted the last trivium from the page. That trivium was fine and I didn't mean to delete it. --SnorlaxMonster 11:48, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Haha yeah, something was off, I couldn't exactly figure out what it was, but usually your edits make more sense, so.. Nescientist (talk) 08:30, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Steel Beam decription

Hi, here to talk about Steel Beam and Mind Blown description. The way it is on SB and MB pages now isn't fully logical, as "Steel Beam is not affected by Rock Head" implies that it should've been affected to begin with. As SB isn't a recoil move, there's no original connection between those two topics. Specifying that it is not, in fact, a recoil move gets rid of this vague idea. Or it can be removed at all, since it was probably added when Mind Blown wasn't fully researched and counted as a pseudo-recoil move.

I also wanted to implement this logic onto Mind Blown page, so I waited to see how people react to it. Didn't expect this edit though. Are you sure that putting Parental Bond near a Gen 8 move is a good idea, even as a hidden note? There's no need to theorise what would happen, even if we have Mind Blown interaction with it. I specifically removed Parental Bond part because of this. It can be added when (if) Megas and Steel Beam would actually meet each other. Itan (talk) 16:13, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

It doesn't imply it should, in my opinion. I think it makes sense to specifically add the known lack of an effect/interaction, when people might legitimately come to that page to see if there is an interaction. (And by "people", I don't necessarily mean high-end compatitive battlers or game mechanics researchers.)

I actually didn't realize that Parental Bond is tied to Mega Kangaskhan (read:unavailable), I just saw that Kangaskhan became available via DLC. It's just a hidden note, but I guess if you happen to make an edit to that page, feel free to remove that hidden note as well. Nescientist (talk) 16:25, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

If someone wanted to search whether Steel Beam is affected by Rock Head or not, they may as well be looking for a reason WHY it isn't affected. There's no clear answer to that - non-recoil moves are simply not mentioned on Rock Head and Recoil articles. This sentence is more confusing than it is simplyfiyng, as it says "unrelated_stuff does not affect this thing". Rock Head is unrelated to Steel Beam, so either this sentence doesn't need to exist, or the connection between two topics needs to be explained. Let me think of an example (made up just now) - Defog article - "Defog doesn't get rid of Leech Seed". Why should it? No connection, just like here. "Defog doesn't get rid of Leech Seed, unlike Rapid Spin" - provides reason "Why should it". Itan (talk) 16:52, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

My main point was that I was basically only correcting the faulty logic, that no recoil <=> not affected by Rock Head is fundamentally tied. Note that Struggle has recoil (it is even explicitly called recoil by official sources) but is unaffected by Rock Head. (I initially mentioned Tackle, forget about that.) It's unaffected because it just happens to be unaffected.

I also don't like to say "this is not recoil" because negatives are hard to prove, and not future-proof (GF might just as well append "with recoil" for Mind Blown's next in-game description, and then that mechanics-centric wording just falls apart).

The difference between this and your hypothetical Defog example is that people (in my opinion) have more reason to ask "Hm, is this thing that's much like recoil affected by Rock Head (which typically affects recoil moves)? Let's go look it up." than "Hm that thing that's much like Rapid Spin, does it also get rid of Leech Seed?" I see what you're saying, though. Generally, I'm probably very inclusionist here (and I'd almost rather add your hypothetical to Defog than remove that line from Steel Beam). Nescientist (talk) 17:27, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Saying "Not affected by Rock Head <==> Not a recoil move" is wrong because of three moves that don't follow this rule. Two of them are Shadow moves and the last one is Struggle, so inexperienced user would be confused as if Mind Blown was an exception as well. Those exceptions are reason enough to provide some explanation.

Once again, if certain person comes to visit this page because they thought Mind Blown was/wasn't a recoil move and wanted to check it, they would leave it with strong impression that it IS, in fact, a recoil move, that ISN'T, for some reason (not provided on the page), affected by Rock Head.

I understand possible confusion with recoil moves - that's why I provided that description in the first place. I just don't get your "main point" - why there shouldn't be an explanation to why it isn't affected. We do have other exceptions which don't need explanation because they just work that way - they are Recoil but they don't get affected. This one looks like Recoil, isn't Recoil, isn't affected. It's different. Itan (talk) 20:25, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

And that's exactly what my "main point" was, that's why I removed it. It used to say "Rock Head and Reckless do not affect Steel Beam as it is not a recoil-based move", but being "a recoil-based move" is not a sufficient condition to be affected by Rock Head and Reckless; and also because there's no proof it's not a "recoil move" (which is a non-strictly defined term that has no immediate usefulness; we know it's unlike Take Down and all the other "standard" recoil moves, but you technically cannot prove it's not "recoil").

I wouldn't oppose something like "Unlike most recoil moves, SB is unaffected by RH and Reckless" if you insist. But I believe people want to know "is this affected by Rock Head?" much more than "is this a recoil move?", where again, "recoil move" is a non-strictly defined term that has no immediate usefulness (and we wouldn't even technically know the answer to). Nescientist (talk) 15:42, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

(resetting indent)We can't call it a recoil move when there's no evidence that is it one. It does not mention "user was hurt by recoil" after attacking, which every other recoil move does. Not affected by abilities - yes, may be an exception, but it is still an evidence against recoil. There's simply more evidence against it being a recoil move, while the only thing that suggests it can be a recoil move is HP depletion. Curse-like HP depletion. Curse isn't a recoil move by our standards. We can't prove Curse isn't a recoil move if we use your logic. But we don't need to, because we set the rules. Yes, there's no official list of recoil moves provided by GameFreak, but classification we provide on Bulbapedia is good enough for our use when there's evidence behind it. We say that a recoil move is defined by "X", and when some move doesn't meet most of X criteria, it is not a recoil move. If GF provides proof that it is a recoil move, even breaking all criteria we came up with, we'll change our ways. Heh, I speak loudly of "we", as if I was a major figure here. Anyway.

About that line, "Rock Head and Reckless do not affect Steel Beam as it is not a recoil-based move". You're twisting the logic. While being a recoil move does not guarantee being affected by Rock Head, not being a recoil move guarantees not being affected by Rock Head. In this sentence I'm not saying that it isn't a recoil move because it it not affected by Rock Head, I'm stating that it isn't affected by Rock Head because it is not a recoil move. It is not a recoil move because we define it so. Definition part is described higher. I think this sums it up.

Oh, and we can get another opinion. I had a talk with FinnishPokéFan92 about Steel Beam a while ago, where I learned why Steel Beam is not considered a recoil move. I don't think we can come to a conclusion on our own, to be honest) Different view of the situation would be helpful, wouldn't it? Or just one decisive blow. Itan (talk) 17:29, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Just so we're clear, it's like.. of course it's not that recoil. I don't dispute that at all. It's not recoil as in.. the standard recoil (Take Down etc.). I think it was probably me who removed the word "recoil" from Mind Blow's page even before the game was out!?

But that doesn't mean it's not.. recoil. There's no definition of what recoil is. It's a bunch of moves that act the same (standard recoil), plus Struggle and some weird moves that act differently, for some weird reason. I don't think "we" (the community) define what recoil is, but rather Game Freak does, for example via messages (as you pointed out). Steel Beam works more like Struggle than Take Down; as I said, what if the in-game description added "by recoil" in the next game..?

About "twisting the logic", you're probably right in what you're saying, maybe I was trying to argue too hard haha. But anyway, it's not intrinsically tied, there's no reason the logical relation that's true right now needs to be true forever.

Yeah of course, feel free to seek other opinions (some public talk page?), or just suggest alternate wordings I could better relate to. You probably agree, this isn't really important enough for an eternal discussion. Nescientist (talk) 17:57, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Sorry to interject here, but I feel like we can fairly safely define a "recoil move" as any move that displays the recoil message. (An if a subsequent game were to add that message to Mind Blown/Steel Beam, then they would become recoil moves in that game.) That's also how Reckless defines it, although Struggle is an exception because it's an exceptional move (for good reason). --SnorlaxMonster 13:13, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Stadium 2

Hey, thanks for editing and improving the Stadium 2 trivia I had added in Pokémon Crystal Version. :)

If you don't mind, please also check the trivia section of Pokémon Stadium 2 and see if it needs any changes. I added basically the same trivia point there earlier, about Crystal being missing from the boxart and manual. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 17:04, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Done, no problem. Nescientist (talk) 18:05, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

AG078

Hello. Thank you for your edits to the formatting on the episode template for AG078. I could not figure it out myself and didn't even think to play with the apostrophes. --HoennMaster 22:26, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

No problem. I just thought if text is italicized and apostrophes show up where they shouldn't, that was a good starting point. Nescientist (talk) 15:42, 20 May 2021 (UTC)