User talk:Force Fire/Archive 13

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			Archive Thirteen

Suggestions

Hi! Where could I submit suggestions for the editorial board to consider? I've just finished completing the learnsets for every move in LA and with that I'd like to drastically overhaul/simplify how the move learnset templates look. It'd be a lot of work, but there is plenty of time until the next games. I already discussed the matter with User:SnorlaxMonster who broadly supported it, so I'd like to start the official process of having my suggestions evaluated/fine-tuned/accepted. You can find everything you need to know in my sandbox.

Another suggestion would be using galleries when we list the confirmed Pokémon an artist has designed. This seems pretty straight-forward to me, I hope I don't need to list reasons as to why. It would really help people understand and appreciate the artists more.

Oneofthosedf (talk) 20:50, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Could I at least get an answer? Or could you redirect me to a person who can help me with the process?

Oneofthosedf (talk) (contribs) 15:52, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Apologies for the late response. I'll briefly go over your points. Point 1 and 4 seem to go hand in hand, I wouldn't mind using the sugimori artwork in favor of the menusprites for single image templates. Using them for a list makes the template look larger than it needs to be, so menusprites (being smaller) works better imo. As for the types, the older ones are preferred because the text is larger than those on the newer symbols. The new symbol may look nicer but it doesn't help those unaware of what those smbol represents.

For points 2 and 3, Maahirmomtaz is in the wrong here. I have no idea why they are making those edits and someone should ask them why on their talk page. If they doesn't respond, then staff can make them respond. Using the sup template for game specific moves is indeed how we do things. Though I do agree that it has recently gotten ridiculous, and your templates are indeed a better way of showing them. I don't think having both games and generations in one header would be confusing, as long as the reader understands the purpose of such layout.

For point 5, I'm 50/50 on it. I think they should be separated for being completely different learning methods, but I can understand merging them to save space.

As for the galleries, eh. We don't do that for voice actor articles, so I don't think it's worth doing it for the designer articles. Just bloats the article up, imo.--ForceFire 07:29, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the response. I hope I didn't come off as arrogant, but I'm just used to sending a reminder to offices IRL. There was no frustration behind it.

The two points that I care about most are #3 and #5, the ones that would require the most work and the ones that are most needed. I'll address all of them one by one briefly.

1: I just think the different line heights look pretty jarring. Consistency is always the best, and considering we can fix all the templates that use menusprites this easily, it should be done. I do dislike that all of them need to be 68x68, but that's life. Nothing we can do about that (unless of course we move away from pixel art, which gives us endless sclability options).

2&3: I think they noticed the situation getting ridiculous as well. If my suggestions are accepted, we would only need to use the superscripts for the few forms and new Pokémon that were introduced in Pt, B2W2, ORAS and USUM. I trust the reader will understand it. But we can always leave a note in the footer explaining that Gen VII and Gen VIII needed to be broken up.

4: I think the era of menusprites is over. We'll inevitably get confirmation in a few months when the SV trailers start to showcase some gameplay. But neither BDSP nor LA uses them anymore. I think it's done. Consistency is always the best move, and a core quality of Bulbapedia. I love the spritework personally, but they don't look as good on the Switch as they do on Bulbapedia. We can't keep using menusprites and the LA headshots with whatever SV will introduce, then a possible fourth artstyle by the end of 2023. I understand the issue with the Sugimori artworks taking up too much place, but technically they wouldn't. There would be just less white spaces. I pray for a game where every Pokémon is available again (mainly for this reason), but until then the Sugimori artworks are the only thing every Pokémon has (Eiscue forms and Galarian Zen Darmanitan don't need to be incldued, thankfully). I also don't think they look bad, I can try making a longer list with 100+ Pokémon if that's something you think would be more convincing.

4: As for the type bars, I'm not sure that I understand your complaint. I don't see why we'd need to use the ones from 2006. AFAIK the Fairy type bars are fan-made. My sandbox displays the version with the type names. They are perfectly legible, and the symbols aren't too small either. The colors broadly fit the colors Bulbapedia uses as well. We should move away from pixel art, because monitors with higher resolutions don't accommodate them too well. I need to zoom out a whole lot for them to look crisp. Ironically the type bars I am using are now obsolete as well, BDSP, LA and SV use a new version, so I shall implement those (though I'd need permission to remove the dead space around them).

5: This is partly about future-proofing, partly about reducing bloat, and partly about displaying information as neatly as possible. I am certain we will get new learning/tutoring methods later down the line, and we don't need another section for Giga Drain with 300+ entries that contains the same information. It also addressed the issue with moves that keep going for TMs to tutors to TRs, then back to tutors, etc. I don't think it would be confusing at all.

Galleries: I wouldn't want them to be used on voice actor pages either, utterly useless IMO. I think there is a stronger argument for displaying artworks on the pages of the designers. A list just feels lifeless, while a gallery feels respectful to the artists, and helps users understand their design philosophy.

I want to get as much input from experienced users as possible. I really want these changes to accommodate everyone, since I think this is the way going forward and something no other big sites have. How should I go about gaining supporters for this? I refrained from writing individual community members as I feel that constitutes as spam. Oneofthosedf (talk) (contribs) 12:57, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Your posts doesn't seem arrogant or confrontational at all. I can understand wanting to bump a discussion when an admin doesn't respond to it. If you want to reach out to more users but not spam multiple talk pages, you can always use the Editor's hub talk page. Though going to a staff member works just as well, as they will most likely relay the message onto the other staff members in the staff discord.

1: Nothing we can do if the images are of varying sizes. We can't expand the smallest menusprite to be the same size as the largest menusprite.

2/3: Seems we are in agreement on this. I don't mind separate columns within a generation for separate games.

4: I was actually under the impression that the artwork would make the other cells have more whitespace than needed as opposed to menusprites, but checking now, doesn't seem to be the case. Probably is more ideal looking comparing the two again.

4: As for the types, (if I remember correctly) that was what was mentioned as the reason for using the older type images in a staff chat. The text would appear too small in the size we would have them, as opposed to the older images where the text were essentially the image. It's probably fine for mobile, but not so much for desktop.

5: Yeah, not entirely against reducing repeated information, so I won't be bother if we do decide to merge them together.

Galleries: That's understandable. I think having the images be smaller would change my mind, just having them how it is on your page makes it seem cluttered.

And just a couple points about your templates: I think leaving the tutor/tm/tr row white works best to avoid color clashes (using EP for IoA may or may not be confused with CT, unless there's not much of a difference in movesets), and leaving out games where the move isn't coded in makes sense (though I think a note in the footnote might be best to avoid confused users asking questions).--ForceFire 14:53, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

1: I was thinking about what we have on the Pokémon Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl page. The version-exclusive list already uses the Moveevtrytm template, so we'd only need to change the headers (I think). The images are not altered, only centered. I am not exactly sure which part of the code makes them appear this way, but you can't deny that it looks more cohesive.

4: Here is an image (https://imgur.com/n0czury) I want you to look at. I use 2560x1440 monitors and at default zoom, everything on Bulbapedia appears to me as it does in the bottom row. Amazing for artworks. So much detail. Terrible for spritework, unfortunately. In order to enjoy them, I need to use 80% zoom (the standard for smaller resolutions), which makes everything tiny. You can also compare the readability of the type bars on the image. Exact same font height. I think one can read both just fine. By completely getting rid of spritework, we now have a zoom-proof wiki. People who are hard of seeing can now freely zoom in without the fear of blurry pixelart. So my proposal actually accommodates readability, if you think about it. It also shows that we don't need to stick with 68px, we can go smaller, if we want to further reduce scrolling. Or we can use 70px on move pages, but go with 50px for the headers on Pokémon pages. Endless possibilities. It would need some manual work, since the naming conventions for menusprites and Sugimori artwork are different, but that's part of future-proofing.

Galleries: Okay, I'll make some variations. I just used the default Bulbapedia gallery, I'm fine with scaling down.

IoA is unfortunately completely unreadable on a white background, and since it's neither a game, neither a separate DLC, using the EP superscript is more accurate. We don't list the tutor locations on the move pages (not in this case), so it doesn't matter whether it's obvious that the tutors are available on the IoA or the CT. Anyone who has access to one of them, automatically can access the other. Oneofthosedf (talk) (contribs) 15:36, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

1:The way it's done on the bdsp article is indeed good, that's because the moveentry template has the image align-centered and at a height of 70px. I should note that I'm under the impression that the problem here is the size discrepancy between menusprites, hence "Nothing we can do if the images are of varying sizes." The LA menusprites, on the other hand, would lean me towards using sugimori art due to them being way different than the usual menusprites.

4:Seems you're using a slightly bigger screen that me. But still, for me at least, menusprites or sugimori artwork still look completely fine regardless of 80% or 100% scale. But I am leaning towards sugimori art. As for type images, I still stand by using the older ones. Same as the menusprite vs artwork, I personally can see both just fine regardless of scale, but the text of the newer images being slightly squished to make way for the symbol wuld make it slightly harder to read.

Galleries: They look fine now. TRG didn't really need to add examples of other designers, just one example is fine. If you are fine with the approval of one admin, you can go ahead and add the galleries.

Fair enough, I don't have much else to say about the templates design wise, so they're fine by me.--ForceFire 06:45, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, my next post will be on the Editor's Hub. I am 100% on the side of using Sugimori, so I'm happy with your replies. My original idea for the type bars was just to use the highlighted texts we use everywhere else on Bulbapedia. I don't know if their implementation is feasible, but I'll ask around and if it is, I'll throw it in the suggestion. I'm thinking of something like this (visual edit, not coded): https://imgur.com/msd1Gzi. I'll go ahead and add the galleries, and I'm thankful for TRG, because they did save me a lot of work. Oneofthosedf (talk) (contribs) 14:28, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Designers

I had a thought that it would be nicer to find all designers by giving them navigation infobox. I made it here, can I add it? [1]--Rocket Grunt 16:30, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Sure. Surprised we don't already have a category for them as well, though both a nav box and category would probably be redundant.--ForceFire 11:47, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks.--Rocket Grunt 12:52, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Reverting literally all of my edits

ForceFire, why are you reverting literally all of my edits you notice? You seem to be biased against me like I'm an undercover Soviet (which I am NOT!). Can you please explain this? Mario60866 (talk) 18:33, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

I monitor the recent changes regularly and check edits that catch my attention, especially if it's a user that has made problematic edits in the past. You are not the first user that I have monitored the edits of.--ForceFire 19:20, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

But why are you calling literally all my edits problematic? Mario60866 (talk) 19:21, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Because you've either A)added very unnotable trivia B) constantly reverted edits, i.e. edit war or C) Have very extreme views on things that we can't control. That's why your edits are "problematic" and are worth monitoring.--ForceFire 19:30, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Firstly, I'll have you know that I have religious beliefs against sexuality and that's why I've tried to sex-proof Bulbapedia by removing links like that.

Second, my edit on the form difference page was a legitimate edit because there are Pokemon that change HP stay based on their formes, such as Zygarde. It says on there "other than HP" which is genuinely incorrect.

Third, you are right that I should not be adding personal opinions like my similarities to May or that Giratina is my favorite Pokemon, but some people do legitimately mistake Flygon for a Pseudo-legendary, for example. I added that piece of information specifically because I've had people say to me that Flygon among a few others is a Pseudo-legendary, and I even specified why in the trivia it was not.

At this point I think you are completely biased against me, whether it's because of stupid mistakes I did make or simply because you disagree with me, but that is no reason to treat me this way. I've been treated this way by too many people in my life and I'm tired of it. I've already mentioned this to a member of the editorial board in fact. Mario60866 (talk) 22:11, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

The fact that most of your edits were reverted by me is just a consequence of me monitoring the recent changes and checking edits of users that have made problematic edits in the past. You are not the first, nor are you the only, nor will you be the last user whose edits I monitor from the recent changes.--ForceFire 07:29, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Pages for analysis

Hello, I'm sending this message to ask about the possibility that these pages here meet requirements to go to mainspace. Boldore's page, I think, will fulfill the requirements from Friday's episode. I'm also sending a link with a shortcut to some Trainer templates for some characters, I know some of them don't meet the requirements, but probably one or two might work.

The other two are from events that happened and don't have pages, I tried to follow the same pattern as other events in the anime. I'm sending mainly because I have a lot of pages to be mounted in my userspace, and I want to try to reduce that amount.

• User:Hikaru Wazana/Mewtwo (game)
• User:Hikaru Wazana/Goh's Boldore
• User:Hikaru Wazana/Ash Ketchum (A Ripple in Time)
• User:Hikaru Wazana/Pokémon Flower Arrangement
• User:Hikaru Wazana/Sinnoh Fair
• Templates

There are some from other users, i hope I don't have a problem with that, which I also wanted to know if it was possible to be analyzed.

• User:Pikablu/Gladion’s Zoroark
• User:05308/Professor Sycamore's Garchomp
• User:Lockheedpryde/Francois

These are pages that I helped in some sections and that I wanted to work on more, but as they are pages of other users, I don't know if something can be done without their consent. And some of them aren't often here, so there's little point in trying to get in touch.

I thank you in advance.--Hikaru Wazana (talk) 03:25, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Mewtwo's role in the game is not as notable or important to the plot of its game as Arceus is to Legends. Not every Pokemon is a sliver of importance in a game is notable for its own article. And adding its appearance in other media doesn't make it notable.

Goh's Boldore would be notable, regardless of its role in the next episodes, as it had an important role in a previous episode.

I think the Ash article is fine.

Both Flower Arrangement and Sinnoh Fair would need a bit of cleanup, some external link template at the bottom, and they're good.

For the Anime character Pokemon tmeplates, we only makes them when one of their Pokemon has an article and if they have more than one Pokemon. So only Cynthia, Korrina, Brandon, Clair, Volkner, and Barry are fine. The Adventures template seems fine, but best to ask someone who edits to manga section for their opinion.

All three are fine.

As for these two. These are not notable. Quality over Quantity. They are too small to be articles. We want fully fleshed articles, not articles that are a couple of paragraphs surrounded by colorful templates.--ForceFire 05:57, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Can I be transferring these pages that you approved to the mainspace? I asked BigDocFan for help, not to exceed my daily personal edit limit. And I'll be working on the details you mentioned that need to be done in the others.--Hikaru Wazana (talk) 14:25, 16 March 2022 (UTC)