Talk:Pseudo-legendary Pokémon

• What??? Do we seriously need this??? --Theryguy512File:Trozeiani025.gif 20:06, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

im not going to say its unnessecary, but "Psuedo-legendary" sounds really stupid. so, i think it should either be reworked or deleted. maybe just add to each pokemon's trivia section that they are near legendary or somthing. File:Ani081MS.gifMAGNEDETHFile:Ani082MS.gifTARIDNEDOPTFile:Ani462MS.gif 20:12, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I say reworkedFile:Ani386MS.gif^Po_keFile:Ani386AMS.gif^ma_ni^acFile:Ani386DMS.gif₁0²♪_♫File:Ani386SMS.gif 20:16, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Needs moar reworking. I'll add the cleanup sign.. Tina ^δ♫ 20:21, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

what should they be called then? or do yall think the anme is OK? File:Ani081MS.gifMAGNEDETHFile:Ani082MS.gifTARIDNEDOPTFile:Ani462MS.gif 20:36, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

What'ch ya tryin' to say huh!?File:Ani386MS.gif^Po_keFile:Ani386AMS.gif^ma_ni^acFile:Ani386DMS.gif₁0²♪_♫File:Ani386SMS.gif 20:38, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Seems to me that this would an article if where was a "Competitive Battling Project" thing. I do believe I heard the term "Pseudo-legendary" at least once in some places such as Smogon... File:Ani026MS.gifMudkipchanFile:Ani392MS.gif

I heard it before. But that was when it was refering to the Groudon in jirachi movie

They are all generally recognised as a set of unique pokemon with a few exceptions to each. (e.g. Garchomp's national pokedex number). However, the fan-term 'pseudo-legendary' in itself only actually refers to their final stages. (Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamence, Metagross, Garchomp). Isn't this a bit inaccurate? --Hyurnat4 08:44, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Well in the anime, Dratini was specifically called a legendary pokemon in Legend of Dratini felinoel 20:35, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Flygon?

I thought only base 600s were psudeo legendary. Why is flygon here? The Placebo Effect 02:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not too sure either. o__O; Tina ^δ♫ 02:53, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

It's a three-stage part-dragon type that can only be found in its first form. File:Ani164MS.gifS^hi_ny ^No_ct^ow_l  02:54, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

i dont think Flygon should be there, its just not rediculous enough MAGNEDETH 02:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Dragonair?

CAn't you find wild dragonair in more than 1 game? The Placebo Effect 03:19, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, FRLGRBYDP, But in DP you can find Pokéradar-ed Vibrava. So? File:Ani197MS.gifMidnight CelticFile:Ani148MS.gif 03:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

the fact of the matter is that Dragonite is def a psuedo-leg. MAGNEDETH 03:24, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. File:Ani197MS.gifMidnight CelticFile:Ani148MS.gif 03:25, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Aggron

What about Aggron? File:Ani491MS.gifKPFFile:Ani000MS.gif 04:37, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Aggron's UU, I believe. UU Pokémon wouldn't be psuedolegendary if they were in UU. :p Tina ^δ♫ 04:39, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

may i ask what UU is? MAGNEDETH 04:41, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I think it means Under-used, as in List of Pokémon by Tier, which is fan-madePokeManiac102 04:45, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Yep, under-used. It's fanmade. As is the term pseudolegendary. Tina ^δ♫ 04:46, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

right, well, Aggron doesnt fit the bill because Lairon can be caught in Victory road, and apparently, thats against the rules...or somthing... MAGNEDETH 04:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

True.PokeManiac102 04:49, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Wait a minute, you can catch Dragonair in the wild, so how is Lairon against the rules? KPF30px 30px 02:45, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Because Aggron's base stats don't total 600. - Nebula 15:45, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The true defintion of pseudo-legendary is a bst of 600 and a three-stage evolutionary line. Things like Dragonair and gabite being caught in the wild are merely trivial. As is the fact they all have one immunity etc. Aggron, Flygon and Kingdra are NOT pseudo-legendaries and never will be. P-Ls do not have to be dragon-type or dragonoid. --Hyurnat4 08:50, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Real definition for psuedo-legendary

Isn't it a BST of 600? The Placebo Effect 13:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Pseudo-legendary --> Powerhouse

It seems to me that everyone who commented on this page, other than Shiny Noctowl, was dumbfounded as to the article's title and definition therein. For pages dealing with fanon terminology, this is a good sign that something has been done wrong; fanon terms are necessarily known to a large number of fans, as opposed to a select few, or in this case - no more than one.

Furthemore, the page (prior to my editing it) included mentions of Pokémon with legendary characteristics, despite their having nothing to do with the suggested definiton of pseudo-legendary. It was also a mere copy-and-paste of the corresponding section on the Legendary page. Now, as for the definition itself, it should be crystal-clear that the powerhouses, as defined by myself, are distinct in their categorization from any other Pokémon (Flygon, for the sake of discussion). Simply put, they are non-legendary Pokémon whose total base stats is 600, which is a great deal higher than Flygon's 520 (see the trivia paragraph for clarification on Slaking). Besides, what makes Flygon any more special than Aggron, Walrein and the 7 fully-evolved, two-typed starters? All of these match the definition used by Shiny Noctowl. I do hope that competitive usage is not the reason, because Swampert and Infernape clearly outweigh Flygon in that regard.

It amazes me that everyone assumed that the definition was acceptable simply because someone had put it forth. Bulbapedia encourages critical thinking and sets virtually no limits on the users' capacity to edit existing pages. Why was I the only one who had the fortitude to replace the previous definition with one that is actually used by the fandom? --Unown Lord 16:47, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Mudkipchan apparently heard pseudo-legendary on Smogon, and I've heard pseudo-legendary on several websites, so I think it should be moved back. I agree, though, that the definition needed some work. But why remove Flygon? Its stats are slightly lower, but base stats shouldn't be included in the definition. Other than base stats, Flygon is in every way a pseudo-legendary. File:Ani164MS.gifS^hi_ny ^No_ct^ow_l  13:57, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

You can see my comments on the article's name further below. Now, the explanation for my excluding Flygon should be quite obvious from the pieces of trivia; Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamence, Metagross and Garchomp have more in common than what you listed in your definition, and in fact, they have more in common than just my addition to that definition (a total base stats of 600). Flygon does not share that common denominator; what it does share with the aforementioned five is also shared by at the very least Walrein and Aggron, who are part of a three-stage line, have two types, require nearly as much experience to reach their form, and have an even higher total of base stats (530). If the only reason for which you included Flygon but excluded those two is that you thought only Flygon was available strictly in its first form, then you thought wrong: In Generation III Sealeo and Walrein are also not available in the wild; in Generation IV both Vibrava and Sealeo are available (incidentally, Lairon is not).

But all of that is irrelevant, since neither Flygon nor Walrein (nor Aggron, for that matter) has enough in common with the powerhouses/pseudo-legendaries so as to be added to the group. It is enough to require a total base stats of 600 to limit the group to the five relevant ones (a respectable addition in and of itself), but again, their common denominator is even greater than that. Look at the trivia and see it for yourself. --Unown Lord 13:55, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Shiny, Pseudo-Legendary makes more sense. I.E. My Snorlax is a powerhouse, but it isn't a pseudo-legendary. My Flygon is not my powerhouse, yet it is a pseudo-legendary. Catch my drift? File:Ani197MS.gifMidnight CelticFile:Ani148MS.gif 15:28, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Psudo legendary should be used. But the only pokemon that should meet this criteria are those 3 stage evos with a base stat of 600. Slaking is questionable, but I would say no to it, as well as flygon. The Placebo Effect 01:08, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm with Unown Lord. Take it or leave it. -File:Spr 3e 186.gifニョロトノ666File:Spr 3e 186.gif 03:29, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

i agree with Placebo, though i think Slaking might be in. but not Flygon. MAGNEDETH 03:31, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I think Midnight Celtic makes a good point, powerhouse can mean ANY strong Pokémon, where as Psuedo-legendary makes a clear point. GlinnFile:Ani202MS.gif 03:37, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect. It depends on the definition, not the connotation that goes along with the given word(s). -File:Spr 3e 186.gifニョロトノ666File:Spr 3e 186.gif 03:39, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

What's the point in a defenition if it doesn't explain clearly the subject? GlinnFile:Ani202MS.gif 03:44, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

absolutly, my old car was nicknamed "the powerhouse" but it was definatly not a pokemon! that being said, "powerhouse" is a general term, it sounds more like a metagame term than a true definition. i could load a powerful pokemon with powerful attacks, and ive got a powerhouse, but a psuedo-legendary means its special in some way, and what you are trying to appeal here is to somone whos never jheard the term before, and they will almost understand what psuedo-legendary just by the sound, where as a powerhouse requires an explanation. MAGNEDETH 04:00, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, powerhouse is too broad a term for these Pokémon. Pseudo-legendary fits the bill better. TTEchidna^G_SDS! 05:57, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

First of all, my true gripe was with the contents of the article; redirecting the article to a new title was primarily symbolic of the reshifting of its underlying ideas. However, I would like to point out the irony in the statement that powerhouse is too broad a term spanning just about every overused Pokémon - the same can be said of pseudo-legendary, as evidenced by the fact that this article originally contained a separate list of Pokémon with legendary characteristics!

Furthermore, I personally feel that pseudo-legendary should be used to describe only two Pokémon that are not even mentioned in the article: Unown and Phione. Legendary alludes to mystery and nature or universe-controlling abilities; this article deals with battle prowess, for which legendaries are certainly well known, but it takes second place to their aura. Besides, some legendaries are not as battle-competent as the pseudo-legendaries/powerhouses in the article - practically all tweleve members of the legendary trios, and arguably some others. This comparison holds in base stats (the legendary trio all have a total of 580, which is lower than 600), but even an in-depth comparison on a competitive level leads to the same conclusion, at least generally. Therefore, is it justified to attach the name pseudo-legendary to a definition that highlights the battle prowess of Pokémon that are actually stronger than some legendaries? On the other hand, Unown and Phione are indeed pseudo-legendary if the term is taken to mean a Pokémon whose aura is associated with a true legendary (Suicune in Unown's case and Manaphy in Phione's).

But I digress, as I do agree that if pseudo-legendary is more frequently used by the fandom to describe the group in question, then it should be used for the purposes of discussing a fanon term.

One last thing - I appreciate Politoed666's token of solidarity. I don't mind reversions to my own edits, especially when done by another sysop, but it isn't my idea of showing respect; it would have been better to wait a bit longer in case I had arguments to present. I only wonder why the same level of urgency was not taken to revise the contents of the article in its original format, when it obviously needed re-working. --Unown Lord 13:55, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Title Trouble

Uhh, guys, the title says Pseudo-legendary but the article is about powerhouses... --Manga-in-a-bottle 06:01, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

It's what I was in the middle of fixing, then a million edit conflicts come up. Argh. TTEchidna^G_SDS! 06:09, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh... My bad.PokeManiac102 06:12, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I tried editing it, but then edit-conflicts. Why were you doing one at a time? I could have done it in 30 seconds. :| GlinnFile:Ani202MS.gif 06:12, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

There were a lot. And I wanted to get some in before there was in edit conflictPokeManiac102 06:14, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

hows about we make a note the page about how some people call it "powerhouse" MAGNEDETH 18:52, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Uh Uh Uh I guess.PokeManiac102 18:55, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Arcanine

Shouldn't Arcanine be classified as a powerhouse pokemon as well? Boywonder01 10:05, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Powerhouse. Not pseudo-legendary. There's a difference: Porygon-Z's a powerhouse, Alakazam's a powerhouse. Their base stats in Special Attack are higher than the base stats of any other non-legendary's Attack or Special Attack, but they aren't pseudo-legendary. They aren't the final forms of end-of-dex Pokémon, they're just final forms of Pokémon that do really well in Special Attack. TTEchidna^G_SDS! 10:35, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

But the species is called legendary, despite it isn't a legendary, so it is kind of a pseudo..., isn't it? And it has the highest sum of base-stats of all non-legendary under 600... So there would be good reasons to call it a pseudo-legendary. And by the way, if you search for the Powerhouse-Article you are redirected to this article, so either there is a need for a own article for the fanterm Powerhouse or Arcanine is truly a pseudo. --Blablubbb 06:58, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

600 stat point total a requirement?

Doesn't that seem a little subjective? I mean sure they all have that but that doesn't mean a future Pokemon of similar psuedo-legend status will have that total. Plus with these Pokemon it could just be coincidence they all have 600. Having 600 total might have been how it happened for all of them, but I just don't seem it as a requirement per se. Just that that's how it happened. Toastypk 03:34, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Not really. The psuedo-legends were most likely designed so that their stats WOULD total 600. The only likely exception would be Dragonite due to Special Attack/Defence being a single stat in Generation 1, but it was probably reworked to total 600 in Generation 2. It's hardly likely to be coincedence that their base stats all total 600. - Nebula 16:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmm... well I've never paid attention to stat totals anyway, just relative strengths. Toastypk

As I said above a base stat total of 600 is a requirement, not a coindidence. It is why they are called pseudo-legendaries, as many legendary pokemon have a bst of 600.--Hyurnat4 08:54, 11 November 2009 (UTC)--Hyurnat4 08:55, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Is it worth mentioning that Tyranitar, as of gen IV, technically has a total stats of 650?? (Due to its sand stream ability and the fact that Rock types get a x1.5 boost in S.Def in a sandstorm???) I know its not its true "Base" stats as such but even so I feel it should be mentioned PhantomCX 12:59, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Nebula, the psuedo-legends were not designed so that their stats would total 600, in fact psuedo-legends at all were not designed, it is just a made up term? felinoel 03:16, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Lucario

Couldn't Lucario fit the pseudo-legendary description? Shadow1337 23:37, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

how? its nothing like a Pseudo in any way. -- MAGNEDETH 23:42, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, for one thing pseudo-legendary by definition means false legendary. Lucario was once thought to be a legendary and has very similar stats. It even has higher stats than some of the legendaries.Shadow1337 00:23, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Pseudo-legendary is a term used to refer to any Pokémon that has a three-stage evolution line, 
two types, as well as a base stat total of 600. 

so, does Lucario fit any of those criteria? One. he has two-types. 1/3 doesnt cut it here. -- MAGNEDETH 00:40, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

But if Lucario ever gets an evolution, its evolution could possibly be a pseudo-legendary. ^Chocolate 00:45, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

No, it won't. Riolu is a baby pokemon evolves from happiness, which will likely separate it. Lucario won't get an evolution because it has too varied a moveset and too high stats.--Hyurnat4 08:58, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

That's true.Shadow1337 00:46, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

not that it wont ever happen, but be rational. do you think Lucario will seriously get an evo? rationally, no. therefor, it is not (currently) a Pseudo-legendary. btw Chocolate, id appreciate it if you didnt edit my comments. if i wanted it like that, id have made it like that in the first place. -- MAGNEDETH 00:55, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

What's more, speculating on whether an evolution of a Pokémon would be pseudo-legendary is hardly a good argument for calling Lucario one. Glinn Mgraw 11:21, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I consider Lucario a semi-legendary Pokémon. A few others i put in the group are Pokémon like Arcanine, Unown, Rotom, etc. --いぬみみ 23:14, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

they have legendary traits, but they are not legendaries. and far from pseudo-legendaries. -- MAGNEDETH 23:20, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

That's why I call them semi-legendaries; meaning they are kind of legendary. --いぬみみ 23:23, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Slaking (Pokémon)

Why is Slaking not a Psuedo? DragonTamer 04:53, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Oohh, It's not dual type, DragonTamer 04:55, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Inbalance

Too much trivia? Too little article? Can someone with experience in competitive gameplay edit it so that the trivia is not longer than the actual article? Θρtιmαtum♏_Talk|Links 12:30, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

New table

Here:

Generation I		Generation II		Generation III				Generation IV
Dragonite		Tyranitar		Salamence		Metagross		Garchomp
Dragon	Flying	Rock	Dark	Dragon	Flying	Steel	Psychic	Dragon	Ground
Evolves from
Dragonair		Pupitar		Shelgon		Metang		Gabite
Dragon		Rock	Ground	Dragon		Steel	Psychic	Dragon	Ground
Evolves from
Dratini		Larvitar		Bagon		Beldum		Gible
Dragon		Rock	Ground	Dragon		Steel	Psychic	Dragon	Ground

_*tc26_* 03:47, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Available only as their first form.

The article states that "Most pseudo-legendaries are obtainable in the wild strictly in their first form. However, Dragonair is also obtainable in the wild in most games where Dratini is (all but Pokémon Red, Green and Blue). Likewise, Pupitar is available in the wild in Crystal. Gabite is found in Victory Road in Platinum."

However, with the addition of Platinum, Gabite can be found in the wild. This means that no, only 2 out of the 5 of them are only found in their first form in the wild. I honestly don't think that something like that should be included in the article, since when was 2 out of 5 "most", or even noteworthy? You could say that all 5 of them have the colour blue on them somewhere, but is that noteworthy?

I'd have already removed it, but the page is protected. Ggled 22:09, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

There's no blue on either Dragonite or Larvitar, thus your entire logic is flawed! Good DAY, sir! :P In all seriousness though, you raise a good point. That part of the article definitely needs to be removed. --Dual 04:41, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Maybe he means a pokemon in the line has had the colour blue on them at some point? --Hyurnat4 09:01, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Kingdra

It doesn't fit the 600 total, (540 in case you were wondering) but it's dual type, it has 3 stages in the family, and it's at the end of the Pokedex. Sorry about bringing up another Pokemon Corvy 12:25, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Kingdra isn't a pseudo-legendary. All qualities must be met. —darklordtrom 20:57, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Base Stat total trivia

On all the pseudo legendaries, there is a trivia entry stating that they have the second highest base stat total behind slaking. It then goes on to say how it's tied with the other pseudo legendaries etc etc. Wouldn't it make more sense to just not have this? I mean there's already a link to the pseudo legendary page (here) at the top of the page, and it explains here that they all have the same base stat total etc. Just seems redundant to me and pointless trivia. [[Derian]] 14:23, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Stats

I don't know how you'd do it, but might it be useful to put stats on the final evolutions at some point.--Hyurnat4 09:04, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Question

Should the part about 600 stat total be changed to something like "at least 600"? Yes there is nothing like that now, but if in future generations something with 630 total does show up it would be better to be prepared now then argue about it when something comes up.--Mtn otter We are the Void 14:13, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

We'll sort that out when it happens. Bulbapedia deals with the present. Thanks anyway. —darklordtrom 04:42, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Garchomp's location in the pokedex

Stated in the characteristics section, it says that Garchomp's evolution line is not next to any notable pokemon. However, I disagree: Before Gible is Spiritomb, a pokemon that is considered semi-legendary by fans, since it can only be caught once under special conditions in the wild. Should we reword that sentence to include this information? - unsigned comment from AuraGaurdian (talk • contribs)

Please remember to sign your posts with four tildes (~). felinoel 04:56, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Ash's Larvitar

It mentions in the trivia that Ash had only one member of the pseudo-legendary line, referencing his Gible, but at one point he had a Larvitar. Shouldn't this be mentioned in the article? --~~AuraGaurdian 17:44, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Give the source and edit it to two. felinoel 20:23, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

It's called Ash's Larvitar by the way. The trivia is actually referencing to his Larvitar but if you wanted to figure out a way of wording it you could say,"Ash is the only main character in the anime to own two different members of a pseudo-legendary family." or something along those lines. –MasterKenobi 20:36, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Gonna step in here quick and bring up that I think the reason why Gible is said to be Ash's only pseudo-legendary was because Larvitar was never technically his, he was just temporarily taking care of it or whatnot. Its article is named as such for the sake of simplicity. 梅子^❀_✿ 20:41, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

If that is the case then why does its article call it Ash's? Are we going to need to move the article if it wasn't Ash's? felinoel 03:02, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

From my previous comment on the matter:

Its article is named as such [ie. "Ash's Larvitar"] for the sake of simplicity

We can't very well call the article "the Larvitar that Ash took care of for about eight episodes but was never technically owned by him" or something. :P 梅子^❀_✿ 15:30, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

That may be true but it apparently isn't his, the page at least should not have that, Ash's current pokemon thing at the bottom or something felinoel 20:11, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

 This discussion would better serve a purpose here, so I am moving it there

Addition of Charizard

I feel that Charizard is a pseudo-legendary. I think it should be added due to it's immense power. Feel free to respond. BrianPokemonTrainer 00:42, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Did.... you even read the article? Charizard does not fufill any of the requirements. It's not even that strong. ._. ▫▫ティナ^♫★ 00:45, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Well... who decided the rules of this fluff term anyways? felinoel 02:57, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Kibago

Isn't kibago a Pseudo-legendary--KayKay|Chat to me! 03:01, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Stats don't reach +600. Ononokusu may be faster and stronger than Gyarados, but a pseudo-legendary he is not.--Black Yin Zekrom 03:08, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Dratini

Awww, who removed part of my note in the trivia about how in the anime Dratini was specifically stated to be a legendary pokemon? felinoel 03:18, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

That's like saying Arcanine should by a Pseudo-Legendary because "Legendary Pokemon" is in its title.

Metagross is used in Gen V

Metagross is used by Lady Caitlin in the Isshu Elite Four rematch. Bluekirbystar 20:46, 13 October 2010 (UTC)