Talk:Villainous team

no team dim sum

that is how its spelled,ok? do not know anything abot team dim sum so can someone put it in. GoldsWigglytuff

No, it's Team Dim Sun. Go check the official website for Pokémon Ranger: Shadows of Almia, [1] - Kogoro | Talk to me | 20:48, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Just a small addition, information on Team Dim Sun will most likely be added once Pokémon Ranger: Shadows of Almia is released in North America. - Kogoro | Talk to me | 20:54, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

ok and its team Dim Sun sorryGoldsWigglytuff 22:13, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Team Meanies

You know, from Pokémon Mystery Dungeon? Gengar, Medicham, and I forgot the other one. SD13 Simpsondude13>SD13 Talk 11:39, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Ekans. :P

But they're more rivals than villains, I'd say. .:Reign:.

Rivals! They nearly get the player & partner KILLED! - unsigned comment from Doggy567123 (talk • contribs)

Team Plasma

Team Plasma is noticeably absent from the article. Could someone add them?--RegiRuler 12:17, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Pokémon Pinchers

Can someone please add the Pokémon pinchers? Masterjoe123 02:12, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Great Gavel?

These guys are the main villains of Pokémon RéBURST. I know it's not a game, but these guys are actual main villains unlike some of the anime's occasional one episode villain teams so that makes them several times more likely. So I was wondering, should they be added? Maybe under an "other" category or should something like a special page for anime/manga original villains be made (and if it already has been made, could you direct it to me?) Ataro 02:13, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Strange layout

This page seems to go into deep detail about each team in the games, anime, and manga. I think it would be much better to simply have maybe one paragraph each and no sections for each medium. The teams have their own articles and don't need this much info on another page. --SnorlaxMonster 09:28, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree. |) u |( e ® 03:37, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Aether Foundation?

They may not have the word "Team" but they are the main antagonists of Sun and Moon and operate mostly like a team, can we add it? --Celadonkey 13:50, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

This page is not for just "antagonists", it's basically for groups named like "Team [X]". Ignoring that—especially when there's already a group in SM that fits that exactly—is very much trying to fit a square peg into a round hole; worse, a round hole that's already got a round peg in it.

IMO Aether as a whole is also not evil. Aether has very clear "good" goals. It's Lusamine and maybe certain people, like Faba and maybe the people who work in the Secret Labs, who are doing bad things. Tiddlywinks (talk) 14:03, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Bringing back this discussion a bit late - I think it's a bit silly that we're judging whether something is a "villainous team" or not based on whether they have "team" in their name or not. And the bit about "there's already a group in SM that fits that exactly" makes more sense, but both of these points are ignored by Cipher and Team Snagem, who are both on the page.

"Aether is not evil" is a good point here, but although other teams may not be quite as extreme, other teams like Team Magma could be argued to have generally a good motive. Disregarding this, though, although it is clear that even though members of Aether joined for good reasons, they did serve as an obstacle for the player - they were likely blindly following their leader's word, like Team Plasma. --Celadonkey 00:04, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Team Plasma isn't the golden boy (or silver boy or whatever) that you want it to be. In the real world, eco-terrorists may have a "noble" goal, but that doesn't automatically make their methods or therefore the group itself okay. Team Plasma's methods are generally of a decidedly radical bent--against the law, or at least general ethics. You can't compare Aether to Team Plasma like that.

If you ask me, it's silly to argue that a "villainous team" shouldn't be a "team". If you want something else, that's one thing; but that's practically the opposite of a good "reason" to shove odds and ends under the label of a "villainous team".

And if you think Cipher should be removed, that might be okay. Tiddlywinks (talk) 00:47, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I know Team Plasma isn't the "golden boy" or whatever, I said "although other teams may not be quite as extreme". But they both have very clear "good" goals, and it's Ghetsis and maybe certain people like Zinzolin who are doing bad things, just as you said about Aether.

Of course it's silly to argue a "villainous team" shouldn't be a "team". But I think it's equally silly to argue that for something to BE a team, it has to use "team" in its name. I don't think we should remove Cipher, as it has always been considered an antagonist team, but it doesn't have team in its name. It's still just as much of a team. --Celadonkey 12:11, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Team Plasma Grunts (and higher) are you villains throughout the story, that's simply inarguable... That's most of what you see; the "good" part is, at best, a "side story". Aether is the opposite. Aether aren't the ones actively being your villains throughout the story; that's Team Skull. And what you see is them being good most of the time; the "evil" part is just that: only a part of their story. It's not like every Aether character you've met turns around and reveals themselves to have been evil the whole time and they were all just using you or something. If we had a page about antagonists, I'd be happy putting them there with appropriate nuance. But they do not deserve to be called a "villainous team". No part of that accurately/reliably describes the foundation's character; it's painting the whole damn thing with far too broad of a brush, when what it deserves is nuance.

I think you and I simply won't agree about "teams". I absolutely do not consider Aether Foundation to be a "team" remotely like Team Rocket/etc. I'm not certain whether to attribute that to their being more of an organization than a gang like the "teams", or equally to their fundamentally being a force of good, but I do not consider them to fit this mold. Tiddlywinks (talk) 12:30, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Just for reference, I hope you have you also seen this earlier discussion!?

As I said there, this isn't to be solved objectively. But basically, I agree with Tiddlywinks in that Aether isn't really villainous as an organization, and not a "terrorist organization" (which is the current definition for it to belong here).

One major difference to Plasma is that, unlike them, once their leader's bad intentions become apparent, Aether (quickly) reform so that more or less, they basically kick the bad guys out of their organization; Plasma had the opposite. Nescientist (talk) 12:50, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

I was to say this, but since there's been more discussion since I've started typing, I'll just kind of awkwardly leave this here.

Yeah, it's clear we're not going to agree. But considering this is mostly where I go for "antagonist" purposes, I think it would be nice to move this page, or at least make a new page, for "Antagonists", since there's really only one antagonist that, according to you, doesn't fit here, and move this one to "Crime organizations" for a more clear definition. (Preferably just move this page to Antagonists without creating a new page just for teams, since it's nearly the same.)--Celadonkey 12:59, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

"Criminal terrorist organizations"

I wouldn't exactly call, say, Team Skull a 'terrorist organization'. I think 'crime gangs' would suffice. --Lmoamemesxd (talk) 15:20, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Should this page be streamlined?

I was briefly editing this page, though thought it could be streamlined immensely. Looking at other key character type pages such as the Pokémon Professor page, it only contains a generalist statement about the role that type of character plays within the Pokémon universe and simply links to the various articles. The Gym Leader and Elite Four pages also follow a similar structure. The work done on this page would not go to waste, it could simply be merged with the other antagonist pages to make them potentially more detailed, and this one can act as a detailed version of a redirect page with links to each of these respective pages.PardescanSlowbro (talk) 04:02, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Move?

Should the page be moved from "villainous teams" to just "villainous team", to maintain consistency with Bulbapedia's other pages? --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 14:07, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it should be. We don't usually have plurals as page titles. ~ Dannyboy601 (talk) 02:07, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

What about Macro Cosmos?

--Taufiq32 15:03, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Macro Cosmos is not an evil team. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 19:00, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Diamond and Pearl Clans?

While not exactly villainous, I believe they should be added, they have "-dan" in their Japanese name - they're "gangs" in the same sense as "Yell Gang". They also fight each other and cause trouble in a similar manner to Teams Magma and Aqua. The English "Clan" names should not affect the encylopaedic categories on a Japanese franchise. Lmoamemesxd (talk) 11:05, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Move: antagonist team

People have raised the issue on various pages that some "teams" aren't much of "villains". And it's true, in some ways we've moved away from just "evil" teams. So let's move this to "antagonist team". Thoughts? Tiddlywinks (talk) 03:22, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

A bit of a bump (hey, still within 6 months), but I agree with a move to "antagonist team". Neither Team Yell nor Team Star are actually "evil" (with the members of Team Star actually being victims), and while Team Skull is comparatively more "villainous", most characters don't even take them seriously and they're still treated more sympathetically than all of the teams from the first 6 gens. I think "antagonist team" is a better fit, since it would still apply to all of the teams here while also being more accurate. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 11:42, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Additional thought: maybe "antagonist group" and it can include Aether Foundation. Are there a lot of others that could add? Does that make it too broad or anything? Tiddlywinks (talk) 15:53, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm just gonna list some ways teams and groups have been categorized or labeled officially...

• villains (generally)
  • Villain Arc
• Secret Teams
  • JP PC RR2018
• sinister organization
  • Nintendo 3DS themes, LG Welcome to Kanto
• villainous gang
  • Villainous team ranking
• villainous organization
  • RR reveal, Villainous team ranking, Team GO Rocket leaders, TCG Spe-shell, PC Team Rocket HQ Collection launch, 25Y Hoenn moments, 2021 Pokemon Presents
• villainous team
  • RR reveal, Villainous team ranking, PC Team Rocket HQ Collection blast off, Team Rocket real heroes, TR HQ Coll preview, 25Y Hoenn moments, GO Rocket solstice, Villainous teams quiz 2022, Pokemon TV Hoenn, Pokemon TV S24 E11, Pokemon TV Battle Dimension eps, Team GO Rocket Festival of Lights

Notes... The villainous team ranking is the only mention of Team Yell and Team Star (the only one at the moment with all the teams, even Team Rainbow Rocket). The villainous teams quiz 2022 is the only mention of Team Cipher and Phobos Battalion. The Villain Arc is the only mention of Aether Foundation and Macro Cosmos (if/when Rose's silhouette on the event banner pans out).

So overall...I think they're still a little fast/loose with it. But if we're gonna group the "Teams", then it seems like "villainous team" is the most appropriate since they do use it most...

If nothing else, though, I think the intro is long overdue for a rework. Whatever the term, not all of them are that "villainous". Tiddlywinks (talk)

Bad sig Tiddlywinks (talk) 23:57, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

My sentiment sort of is, if "villainous team" is indeed the most common/prominent official term, then that's what we should use. It doesn't really feel appropriate for us to replace the term just because it feels like the official term isn't fitting enough. That doesn't mean we can't also put a note in the intro that says something like "Despite the name, newer games feature teams that are less traditionally villainous but still play an antagonistic role" or something of the sort. As for whether certain other organizations fit into this article, I'd say only if they've been grouped with the other villainous teams officially. If not, a separate, perhaps broader page, or category, could be made for those. Landfish7 21:40, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Aether Foundation/Macro Cosmos

What is the current consensus on having them listed on this page? Back in 2017, the consensus seemed to be that the Aether Foundation was neither a "team" nor really villainous as a whole outside of a few members.

However, given that the two most recent gens have had "villainous teams" that aren't actually evil (and even Team Skull before them was more sympathetic than all prior teams and not taken very seriously by most of the characters), it might be worth revisiting.

I don't mind either way, as long as there's consensus on keeping them listed here or not. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 16:32, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

I think they both deserve to be considered Villain Team, in Pokémon Masters both Macro Cosmos and AEther's members are considered "Villain" for this and in some legangue the team skill is literally called "Villanous Team", we should check if in japanese the team skill too is called Villanous Team. Also, in the Villain Team's arc both are considered too as Villain Team, so to me look like GF consider both as such. Team Star in the other hand I think isn't considered such despite the name, since Penny didn't get the team skill in Masters, and in Masters they gave that team skill to any member, no matter if they are evil or not. N for exemple despite being a former member of Team Plasma still got the Villain team skill, while Penny don't.--Zarxiel94 (talk) 16:45, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Team Star is listed here as a villainous team (which includes Team Yell, but excludes the Aether Foundation and Macro Cosmos). That being said, after looking into it, the Villain theme skill is called "悪の組織" (a.k.a. villainous organizations) in Japan, which does seem to further back up the idea that Aether Foundation and Macro Cosmos are considered villainous teams. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 17:19, 11 January 2024 (UTC)