Talk:Selene (Masters)

Based on the player character trivia

I disagree with the removal of the trivia point that it's unclear whether Elio or Selene is based on the player character of the Alola games. While it's true that all characters who are playable in the core series are characterized by their role as the player character to an extent, in almost all other cases only one of the characters is explicitly meant to be the one controlled by the player, either through their relation to NPCs or actions they took. Some examples:

• Red dethroned Blue as Champion.
• Ethan refers to the Day-Care Couple as his friends, not his grandparents.
• Brendan is Norman's son.
• Dawn is Johanna's daughter.
• Hilbert battled N at Team Plasma's Castle and went looking for him afterward.
• Rosa is Hugh's neighbor and her mom worked at a Pokémon Center.
• Serena was taught about being a Trainer by Calem, but she quickly became stronger than him and never lost a battle to him.
• Gloria fought Eternatus alongside Hop.
• Rei traveled through space and time to arrive in Hisui.

So, the fact that it's still ambiguous whether Elio or Selene is based on the character controlled by the player is rare (Chase and Elaine are the only other pair with no confirmation) and thus I think it's notable to mention. Perhaps we can reword the trivia point to make that more apparent. Storm Aurora (talk) 21:52, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Well yeah, they'd have to be more clear within multiple circumstances, and normally I'd agree with these characters (however, it is true that all characters are based on all of their in-game appearances, so I think that information is slightly wrong, and should be noted that some take more from than others, not that they specifically are the player), I think the situation with Elio and Selene are pretty distinct from the others. This is implying that there is some sort of hidden lore rule that one of them MUST be based primarily on the protagonist role and the other is just some rando or the NPC, when that isn't the case. I don't see why they can't both be the player character role. There's no NPC role for either of them, and the protagonists often take from other elements of the game. The whole thing with Elio and Selene is that they are specifically based on the concept of Sun and Moon canonically taking place from different universe from one another (Selene coming from the "moon world" and Elio coming from the "sun World"). It's not ambiguous, they come form completely different canons, that's the point. TrainerSplash (talk) 01:26, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

One of the player characters being based primarily on the protagonist role isn't a "hidden lore rule", it's a pattern that they've kept up with all the protagonists except Elio & Selene and Chase & Elaine. I agree that they might not ever confirm one of them as based on the player character (I protested when it was changed to the current wording, but the other editor was insistent and I didn't feel strongly enough to discuss it further), but I still think it's notable to mention. I disagree that they're intended to come from completely different canons; they seem to have known each other since the moment they arrived in Masters, and statements like "We met them near Paniola Town on Akala Island when they were still Eevee! They evolved while we were taking on the island challenge!" suggest they took on the island challenge together. Considering that characters can come to Pasio of their own volition (some characters specifically mention coming by boat, iirc), I think it's safer to assume that everyone on Pasio is from the same universe unless they explicitly mention seeing a ring, not understanding how they got to Pasio, or otherwise call attention to their circumstances being weird (like how Hisui characters have come through space-time distortions).

To be honest, I think that Elio is meant to be the "canon protagonist", if you will. Elio mentions helping Lillie out of a tough situation in Alola, which could be referring to the Necrozma business, while Selene mentions nothing of the sort. Also, Elio knows the Masked Royal's identity, while Selene doesn't, and the player's dialogue choices in SMUSUM imply that they know the Masked Royal's identity. However, I acknowledge that these points—whether taken together or separately—aren't solid enough evidence to say definitively that Elio is based on the character controlled by the player, so I'm not going to argue that we should state that as fact. But it's enough to make me think that it's possible that a "canon protagonist" will be explicitly confirmed later on, so I don't want to erase the mention of it completely. I suggest restoring the trivia with the old wording (though slightly reworded now that Chase and Elaine exist): "Elio and Selene are one of two pairs of protagonists where neither is clearly based on the player character from their games of origin, the other being Chase and Elaine. They both moved from Kanto to Alola, went on the island challenge, and have a Meowth as a family pet." Storm Aurora (talk) 18:23, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

See, I'm under the opinion that (bias aside) that Selene is actually the "more protagonist" of the two because she has Rowlet and Royal has Incineroar (which Kukui can only have if the player starts with Rowlet; unless in the battle tree), this isn't really evidence either, especially since some characters just pull from battle facilities anyways (they mentioned that Brock's Tyranitar first appeared in B2W2, which is true, but only a facility), but there's not really a whole lot saying that Selene didn'tgo through the same actions as Elio, just more so that she hasn't brought it up. I don't like the trivia there because it implies that one of them must take up that role. I would greatly prefer if it was just worded as "Selene and Elio, both reference their role as the player character, in contrast to others with the main character theme skill, where one is more directly based on said role." I don't know enough about Chase or Elaine to comment on their part. I think it's weird as a whole to argue for this pattern and that every character needs to follow said pattern. Even if you were to talk about how some characters came from pasio through natural and unnatural means, there is a ton of "continuity errors" in the sense that multiple characters are based on multiple games with contrasting context (mostly Alola-based characters, who seem to be based on a fusion of SM and USUM roles), I don't think we should be taking this as strictly as we currently are. TrainerSplash (talk) 21:55, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not arguing that "every character needs to follow said pattern"; that's why I suggested we remove the "so far it's unclear" bit. As for your suggestion, I don't think it's helpful to notate the group as "characters with the main character theme skill", since that group would clearly include characters like Scottie, Bettie, and Ash who this doesn't apply to at all. How about we phrase it as "Selene and Elio are one of two pairs of protagonists that are equally based on the player character from their games of origin, the other being Chase and Elaine."? Storm Aurora (talk) 22:54, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Ah, that's my bad, I may have misinterpreted what you said. I completely forgot Masters' own MCs and Ash lol. I'm fine with writing it down like that. TrainerSplash (talk) 03:02, 19 April 2024 (UTC)