Talk:Kiyo

Anyone else find it odd that he went into the mountains for training, and his Pokémon lost three levels?--Ozzie 10:45, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Most of the later Kanto Trainers got weaker in GSC. This was for the sole purpose of level balance. Similarly, Eagun's Pikachu levels down from 40 in Colosseum to 16 in XD. It's all about when the character is placed in the game relative to the player. Satosuke 06:27, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, but he could also be like Blue, who trained a Rhydon from scratch. *scrathes back* *is hit by someone for making bad pun* It could be two new Hitmons. Θρtιmαtum♏_Talk|Links

Contents

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• (Return to top)
• HGSS
• X and Y quote
• Tyrouge Jump Kick
• Name
• Split?
• The future of this page
  • Counterparts
  • In the anime
    • In the main series
• About Masters EX

Contents

HGSS

Anyone want input his team from HGSS? I think we can go out on a limb and assume what they are.--Ryuutakeshi 04:17, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

X and Y quote

Where'd that quote come from? Is he even in those games? --Wynd Fox 07:23, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Tyrouge Jump Kick

Did Tyrouge use Jump Kick? It can not learn the move and it is not on Jump Kick's page.Rahl 23:07, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Name

So, here he is again. And he's Koichi again. I think it no longer makes sense to treat "Koichi" as an oversight. I propose this article to be moved to "Karate Master" (which is the most neutral choice, also this is how he is referred to by most NPCs), but I'm open to discussion. --Maxim (talk) 15:47, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support for obvious reasons. GrammarFreak01 (talk) 21:19, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Split?

Seeing how the Karate Master found in Kanto is consistently called Koichi, while the one found in Mt. Mortar is consistently called Kiyo, I think it's a fair assumption that they're separate characters. The idea is probably that at some point during during the three year gap between Gen I and Gen II, Kiyo became the new dojo master, replacing Koichi. So I propose splitting the article. --Golden Trainer (talk) 19:30, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

I agree.--Rocket Grunt (Report To Me) 16:12, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

This does appear to be the case. They consistently have different names in all languages. --SnorlaxMonster 02:02, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

The future of this page

In light of today's appearance of the Fighting Dojo Karate Master in the anime (who is left apparently unnamed but obviously based on Koichi's LGPE appearance and clearly distinct from OS Kiyo), I think it's beyond any doubt we should reorganize the way we treat Kiyo/Koichi/Karate Master's game and media appearances on Bulbapedia. My proposal as to the future of this page is:

• Make "Kiyo" (possibly move it to "Kiyo (anime)") an anime-based article, centered around the Character of the Day from Johto series (as well as his Ash & Pikachu version), who although based on Karate Master Kiyo from GSC, has some clear differences from his game original (no relation to Saffron City Fighting Dojo, no title of "Karate Master", a backstory linking him to Chuck). The article should have a short "In the games" section mentioning how Kiyo is based on Karate Master's Gen II appearance, but the page shouldn't go into details.
• Create a new "Karate Master" article with all the information about Karate Master's game appearances from all Generation (Kiyo and Koichi alike). Whether Kiyo and Koichi are different characters or the same should be kept ambiguous and we should use the title "Karate Master" as an umbrella term encompassing all the generations. This article should also cover Journeys Karate Master and all unnamed media appearances based on the games (Origins, PM etc.). It should somehow refer to OS anime Kiyo and possibly Master Hamm but not detail them.

I know that this is very tempting to separate Kiyo and Koichi and identify the new Journeys Karate Master as Koichi (as he's clearly based on the Gen I/LGPE version of the Master) but this is all speculative (unless I missed something and he does get referred to as "Takenori"). Also, the anime should not affect the way we treat the game character due to the anime's big and obvious differences from the game. While the consistency of the usage of "Koichi" in Kanto-based games and "Kiyo" in Johto-based games gives credibility to the statement that there are two different characters, there is also substantial evidence that they are (or at least, originally were) supposed to be one and the same, such as various mentions of "Karate Master" by NPC characters in various regions (which imply that Karate Master is a specific person, not merely a title referring to various characters). There is also the troublesome NPC appearance in Kalos, which cannot be accurately identified as neither Kiyo nor Koichi nor someone else. That's why I think that we should keep Kiyo and Koichi on one page (named "Karate Master", which encompasses both and is the title that the character is referred to outside battles). Since the title "Karate Master" doesn't refer to OS anime Kiyo, I think it's better to split him into separate page. I'm open to debate but I think it's no longer possible to keep all of Karate Master's appearances/adaptations under the title of "Kiyo", so some decision must be made. --Maxim (talk) 10:27, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

• • User:Hikaru Wazana/Karate Master (JN034)

I started a page only for the Karate Master of Pokémon Journeys, if anyone wants to help collaborate. From what I could see the version that appeared today is directly based on games, so I think it is more relevant to put this one in the spotlight. Or you can do the same as you do with game counterparts and each one has a page and on the page of the Karate Master of games a link to each one of them.--Hikaru Wazana (talk) 01:27, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't see how treating two characters with different names as separate characters can be considered speculation. "Karate Master" is just a title held by the current dojo master of Saffron's Fighting Dojo, just like Champion. There can be only one at a time, so it makes sense that NPCs would just refer to the current dojo master as that. I'm all for having a single article for all Karate Masters, but acting like there's reason to assume Kiyo and Koichi are the same person is just silly. Golden Trainer (talk) 20:12, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Did the staff reach a consensus on this character?--Hikaru Wazana (talk) 10:31, 06 September 2020 (UTC)

I've been thinking, I may be putting this page in a similar way to characters like Red or Blue. I mean, do we leave a link on the main page with all the anime counterparts for this character, and create a page for Kiyo as the character of the day?

We didn't have any updates for that from the staff and the six-month period of the discussion is almost over.

I can be doing it myself if they want, just give some consent.--Hikaru Wazana (talk) 13:47, 04 January 2021 (UTC)

My suggestion:

In the anime

In the main series

Karate Master in the Pokémon Journeys: The Series

In the anime, this character received several versions.

Main article: Kiyo

Kiyo appeared as a character of the day in A Tyrogue Full of Trouble!.

Main article: Master Hamm

Master Hamm is a character of the day who appeared in Pasta La Vista

Main article: Karate Master

Karate Master  is a character of the day who appeared in Solitary and Menacing!.This version is closer to that shown in games.

In the infobox of the character we could leave the manga that had only one interpretation or a screenshot of Pokémon Lets Go. Or the version shown in Journeys, perhaps. Does anyone agree, disagree, have suggestions?--Hikaru Wazana (talk) 14:37, 04 January 2021 (UTC)

About Masters EX

I'd like to bring up the idea that maybe the Masters Black Belt featured in Raise Tyrogue! Might not be Kiyo but instead Koichi, he might use some of Kiyo's voice lines and refer to himself as the Karate King but given the fact that Sabrina identifies him as the head of the Saffron Fighting Dojo and that he uses the FireRed LeafGreen Black Belt Design, it's safer to put the Masters EX section on Koichi's page I would say, I'll move it myself if y'all would prefer but I think putting it on Koichi's page is more accurate than Kiyo rewatching the event.

Perhaps the reason he calls himself the Karate King is using the direct translation from the title they used for him in Let's Go rather than using Karate Master, a little thing yes which makes me think it's possible. Skarloeyisyoung (talk) 22:54, 13 September 2025 (UTC)

Kiyo is the head of the Saffron Fighting Dojo in GSC/HGSS, which takes place after RGB/FRLG/LGPE. Masters generally accepts the latest game set in a region as the starting point for characters - Lance is the Indigo League Champion, Cheren is a Gym Leader, etc. So it's reasonable to think that the head of the Saffron Fighting Dojo in Masters is the same guy who was the head in HGSS. He uses the FRLG Black Belt design because that's the default Black Belt design in Masters; I don't think they've ever used two different designs for the same Trainer class (aside from like, having a male and female variant).

He does use a couple of Koichi's lines, but he borrows more lines from Kiyo. In addition, the fact that he's giving you Tyrogue Eggs seems designed to parallel how Kiyo gives you a Tyrogue. If you're still not convinced I can take a look at the Japanese dialogue, but I feel pretty confident that this Black Belt is Kiyo, not Koichi. Storm Aurora (talk) 00:54, 14 September 2025 (UTC)

Those are some fair points but given the more established rivalry with Sabrina as well as the fact that according to Kiyo's own page his Fighting Dojo is defunct, I feel it's safer to say that they're using Koichi. Also while this might be conjecture but given how Kiyo's holed up in Mt. Mortar and has no presence in Saffron himself even with his dojo being there I find it harder to believe he's Kiyo myself given how Sabrina could recognise him with an established rivalry and how he's seen with multiple disciples when Kiyo's only known to have one left.

It might be best to try and see if the Japanese version has any more concrete answers I do feel and I'm sorry for the hassle but I genuinely feel like everything makes a bit more sense when viewed through the idea that it's Koichi featured, since it makes even smaller details like how the Black Belt is the FRLG Design feel more accurate or that he's not talking about Tyrogue but how they'll become the Hitmons, which is something Koichi is more known for. Skarloeyisyoung (talk) 01:38, 14 September 2025 (UTC)

Okay so regarding the title: LGPE uses "からてだいおう" for Koichi. The title used for the Black Belt in this Masters event is "カラテ　だいおう". That's the title used for Kiyo in GSC and HGSS, as well as Koichi in RGBY and FRLG. The fact that they deliberately did not use LGPE's new title leads me to believe that they meant this character to be the one from HGSS.

As far as the article saying that Kiyo's Fighting Dojo is defunct...I think that's a misleading way of putting it? The student in the dojo says "Karate King, the Fighting Dojo's master, is in a cave in Johto for further training." and "We are letting the Gym Leaders use the Dojo while the Karate King is away." And on that radio program that lists the top 3 attractions in every city, the Fighting Dojo is described this way: "It's said that the Dojo owner is a Karate King. This Dojo is a place for Trainers who love battle to gather and converse." All this indicates that the Fighting Dojo is still open, and Kiyo is still its master, but he's just not using it right now. In Masters, there are random NPC Black Belts who appear in the Pokémon Center and mention the Karate King being their idol, so it's not unreasonable to think that he gained some new disciples since we last saw him.

Lastly, to address the point about how Sabrina knows him...there's an NPC in GSC/HGSS who says "Karate King, the master of the Fighting Dojo, was just destroyed by Sabrina." This is different from the NPC in RBY/FRLG who says "SABRINA just wiped out the KARATE MASTER next door." So, both Koichi and Kiyo have suffered harsh losses to Sabrina.

With all that being said, I think the most reasonable conclusion to draw is that this Black Belt is meant to be Kiyo from HGSS. Storm Aurora (talk) 19:17, 14 September 2025 (UTC)

I don't like it but I suppose so, unless there's something I'm forgetting to bring up I suppose let's leave Kiyo, I still feel it makes more sense as Koichi myself and personally see it as the more likely but I suppose it could go either way unless it's directly stated to be one or the other later on somehow so best to leave it here yeah, call me stubborn but I concede it's too inconclusive and is best left here for now due to HGSS being the more recent of the two. Perhaps with an addendum that while it is likely Kiyo it could also be Koichi due to how it's not outright either of them?

To be honest, the fact there are two heads of the Fighting Dojo anyway is kinda annoying, but oh well. Skarloeyisyoung (talk) 19:34, 14 September 2025 (UTC)