Talk:Red (Masters)

Separating "Red (1996)" from "Red (Masters)"

So I can kinda understand why 1996 Red is on this page, as he has the same Dex number as Masters Red, but I feel like we have to make an exception to this "rule" especially because 1996 Red is a completely separate character from Masters Red, and him being on this page will create confusion in the future. We already bent this "rule" for characters like Masked Royal, Brycen-Man, and Bellelba who have completely different Dex numbers from Kukui, Brycen, and Sabrina respectively, but are in their respective pages because they are ultimately the same character. But for 1996 Red and Masters Red, they ARE 100% separate characters.

If we can have characters with different Dex numbers be on one page, we can surely do the opposite and have characters who share the same Dex number be on different pages. TBR2001 (talk) 02:02, 2 March 2026 (UTC)

I feel just acknowledging they're two separate characters is enough to have them on the same page, since it's the article about Red in Masters EX, which applies to both of them, but I'm open for discussion. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 02:17, 2 March 2026 (UTC)

The Ultimate goal (at least I feel like it should be) is to eventually expand the "In the games" section of the article and explain Red's story from Pokemon Masters, as it is a separate continuity from the core series games and it should be fleshed out more on this page. Having the two separate version of Red with completely different history shouldn't be sharing the same page. As an example, we separate anime Ash from I Choose You Ash because them sharing the same page is confusing and doesn't makes sense as they are separate characters who share the same name but have different history. It would be one thing if this game treated 1996 Red as a younger Red, but both the characters in game and the Dex description flat out say this is a different Red. And if 1996 Red continues doing stuff separate from what Masters Red is doing in Pokemon Masters, it wouldn't make sense for them to share the same page. Like what if 1996 Red is shown to have an Espeon, it wouldn't makes sense to put it in "Other Pokemon" under "On hand" because 1996 Red and Masters Red would have completely different Pokemon on them.

If we separate 1996 Red from Masters Red, the page should be called "1996 Red (Masters)" so people will know that 1996 Red is associated with Pokemon Masters but is different from "Red (Masters)". TBR2001 (talk) 02:56, 2 March 2026 (UTC)

I think your argument for splitting the page is sound, and to support it I'll add that '96 Red has a different internal character ID (0365 compared to the default Red's 0000). So there's quantitative evidence to support then being different characters as well.

However, I don't like the idea of calling the split page "1996 Red" when there's no instance of official sources referring to him that way. The way they disambiguate him in-game, "Red (1996)", is fine for the page title imo. Storm Aurora (talk) 04:52, 2 March 2026 (UTC)

Right now I am creating a draft of Red (1996) (unless you want to make it yourself). I agree that "1996 Red (Masters)" probably isn't the best name as it isn't official, but all Masters pages of characters are tile "[Character] (Masters)", with the only exception being the Pasio original characters, so I feel like simply calling the page "Red (1996)" isn't the best either.

Unless you think "Red (1996)" works fine as it is, here are a few alternate page names for 1996 Red that I have.

Red (1996) (Masters): The most accurate, but I don't like the double brackets

Red 1996 (Masters): One bracket, but no bracket for 1996

Red-1996 (Masters): One bracket, but it has an unofficial dash between Red and 1996

Red (1996-Masters): One bracket, but it has an unofficial dash between 1996 and Masters TBR2001 (talk) 06:49, 2 March 2026 (UTC)

Thinking about it, I'm leaning towards "Red (1996) (Masters)" as the title page, sure I may not like the double brackets, but it will help when using the standard Masters links. Example, Red (1996) TBR2001 (talk) 07:21, 2 March 2026 (UTC)

A couple of Masters original characters don't have the brackets, most notably the player characters, Lear, and Rachel. So if we are to move it, I'd say just "Red (1996)" could be fine. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 09:16, 2 March 2026 (UTC)

I think it should remain with Red's page... I know they are technically two separate characters... but is counted as a skin. I tried to see if they could appear at the same time on the Poké Center and in the Lodge expedition, but they cannot, the game consider Red and Red (1996) as the same character unfortunatly, even the Dex number is the same... I suggest to add him in the same page as regular Red for consistency and add the fact that they are technically different in the trivia seciton.Zarxiel94 (talk) 10:00, 2 March 2026 (UTC)

Agreed with the above, except I think having the fact that they're two separate characters in-universe should also be stated at the top of the page, like it is now, due to how important the detail is. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 10:19, 2 March 2026 (UTC)

I decided to go with "Red (1996)" as it seems like a better fit and is his "official" name, plus "Red (1996) (Masters)" seem too convoluted. I created the page but I won't mess with "Red (Masters)" until it is agreed to separate them. Right now Red (1996) exist more of a proof of concept.

I'm still against having two different versions of Red sharing the same page, as characters with two completely different history shouldn't be on the same page. And the page will get more convoluted the more Masters Red and 1996 Red do their own thing throughout the game. TBR2001 (talk) 19:12, 2 March 2026 (UTC)

Should we wait for an admin approval before any sort of split is made or not made? --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 20:07, 2 March 2026 (UTC)

I've moved it to the draft namespace for now since the topic is still under discussion. The idea of having multiple sets of parentheses in a page title isn't unprecedented; for example, we have pages called Alola C (Spec) Extension (Skill) and Burned Down (Attack ↓, Sp. Def ↓) (Skill). "Red (1996) (Masters)" isn't any worse than those. As TBR pointed out, if we keep them on the same page, we'd have to have separate "history" and "other Pokémon" sections and stuff, which would be awkward for readers. Storm Aurora (talk) 21:38, 2 March 2026 (UTC)

At this point, both sides of the discussion have made such good points that I'd be fine either way. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 21:42, 2 March 2026 (UTC)

I think having two separate universes = two separate pages is a moot point. Like Ash's main anime page considers the manga as part of his appearances, even if they are separate. I don't think the new Red does enough to justify his own page quite yet, as it's the only one separate version of him. If Red (1996) got another skin or something than maybe I can see the need for a new page. CrownMyFries (talk) 21:47, 2 March 2026 (UTC)

We already had different version of characters from different universes, but they ever shared the same page. Main universe Giovanni and RR Giovanni had a widly different story and impact, yet, they share the same page, since are counterparts of the same person. Thinking about that... sound weird for Red being an exception... yhea, is a different version of him, but the game treat him like any other skin. I don't like this choice... but I think is better they both share the same page for concistency for both how the game treat him and how similar cases was treated (ex. Giovanni)Zarxiel94 (talk) 06:59, 3 March 2026 (UTC)

Okay, I guess y'all have a point. We can keep the new Red on this page, but the history section will need to be divided into two sub-sections (like "Red" and "Red (1996)") to emphasize that they're two different characters. Storm Aurora (talk) 07:15, 3 March 2026 (UTC)

I don't like the sound of that. It is going to look so convoluted, especially if they start to use 1996 Red as his own character more in the future. This page will look like a mess in the future, especially after the section of Red's role in Masters in finally finished. TBR2001 (talk) 07:51, 3 March 2026 (UTC)

If we are going by your example, then we should separate Masked Royal, Brycen-Man, and Bellelba who have completely different Dex numbers from Kukui, Brycen, and Sabrina respectfully. But we don't because we know they are meant to be the same character. The complete opposite from this situation, where Masters Red and 1996 Red are 100% separate characters who only share the same Dex number.

Now I don't know the deal about Giovanni's page, but honestly Rainbow Rocket Giovanni should be separated from the main Giovanni page but I'm not going to mess with the main characters pages, someone else can deal with that. But if that discussion comes up in the future I vote for a separation.

Also Red is not the exception, this has happen with a lot of characters, most notability Ash. We created pages for minor versions of Ash like "Mirror Ash", "Alternate World Ash", "Ash (Masters)", "Ash Ketchum (Pokémon Newspaper Strip)", and "Ash Ketchum (A Ripple in Time)", because keeping them on the main Ash page would be too confusing. Completely different version of Ash like "Ash Ketchum (M20)" and "Ash Ketchum (EToP)" are totally justified for how radically different they are from the main Ash.

These two Reds are different from each other and I think it is justified to separate them. I've already seen some confusion from people who haven't played Masters think that 1996 Red is just a younger version of Masters Red, and this wiki's job is to help clear up any confusion as easy as possible. People who just click on any link to 1996 Red will be taken to "Red (Masters)" page without reading that 1996 Red is an alternate universe version of Masters Red and will just assume that these two Red are the same. 1996 Red having his own page will instantly clear up any confusion by showing he is separate from Masters Red. Plus it will be easier to deal with any lore details that will inevitably further separate Masters Red from his 1996 counterpart in the future. TBR2001 (talk) 07:46, 3 March 2026 (UTC)

Wait, The Masked Royale, Bellelba and Brycen-Man despite having a different Dex number (since they are different identities), they still work like skins. You cannot have Kukui and The Masked Royale together in the Poké Center or the lodge expeditions. The same for Bellelba and Sabrina or with Brycen and Brycen-Man. So... they sharing the same page is still consistent, becuase despite the different dex number, they are still counted as skins. I have no idea about the anime, since I don't follow it, but for how Giovanni was treated and for how Red (1996) is both considered a skin and share the same Dex number, I think make more sense, for consistency, to be in the same page. I mean... literally the official game do so... I don't see why we should do the opposite.Zarxiel94 (talk) 08:08, 3 March 2026 (UTC)

The reason why The Masked Royale, Bellelba and Brycen-Man still share the same page with Kukui, Sabrina, and Brycen respectively, is because we know they are 100% the same character. It would be a very different scenario if Kukui meet The Masked Royale who was from a different universe and a separate character from Kukui that we know from Masters.

Just because "In Game" they treat 1996 Red as a skin, doesn't mean we should, especially when everywhere else treats 1996 Red as a separate character. In Story, in promotion, and in the very description of 1996 Red himself, he is stated to be a separate character from Masters Red.

It seems like a very superficial reason for why 1996 Red should still share the same page with Masters Red, just because the game's code treats him as a skin, where everywhere else it doesn't.

One of the main reason I want to separate 1996 Red from Masters Red is because it might cause problems for this page in the future. Like what happens if Red from Alola shows up? If Alola Red is just Masters Red from the future, than it's fine for him to be on this page because they are the same person just from different points in time, but that will make 1996 Red stick out like sore thumb, especially with the way we design these pages, 1996 Red would be in between the main Masters Red skins. The same applies if Alola Red is just a simple skin for Masters Red with no big fan fare, like they did when Elio and Selene's Ultra designs were made into skins. If Alola Red is treated the same as 1996 Red, where they are completely separate characters, then now we have 3 completely separate canon versions of Red, with their own unique histories, sharing the same page. That definitely won't be confusing and a convoluted mess in the future. And imagine if the impossible happens and Adventures Red was put into this game and is treated as a Red skin. I don't think there is any justification for Adventures Red to be on the same page as Masters Red. TBR2001 (talk) 07:43, 7 March 2026 (UTC)

Literally I can say the same thing about RR Giovanni. He is widly different from main universe Giovanni, yet they both share the same page. That problem can apply to him too, but for maingames, that is a bigger issue at that point. Also, I'm not saying to ignore the 2 Reds are different characters. The idea of divide the story section make total sense, but I think make more sense stick for how the OFFICIAL game count him, as part of a Red skin, despite being his own Red. We should use the official material as base, and if both Red are counted as skins despite being two characters, for consistency we should do the same. And the characters with more indentities (Kukui, Sabrina, Brycen) as I sad before, despite they having their own Dex number, they are still treated as skins. So, they sharing the same page make total sense.Zarxiel94 (talk) 07:51, 7 March 2026 (UTC)

(resetting indent) I think separating the history section between the two variants while keeping them on the same page sounds like the most preferable option. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 09:17, 3 March 2026 (UTC)

I agree, the separate history section seems to be the most logical solution too.Zarxiel94 (talk) 09:26, 3 March 2026 (UTC)