Talk:Localization

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• Localization?
• Fan speculation
• Why does this page exist
• Move?

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Localization?

From this article's history, I can see that this was moved from "List of localization differences in the Pokémon games" to this title? Why was that? (I'm inclined to believe that might be a better title!?) Nescientist (talk) 16:16, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

It was "List of regional changes in the Pokémon games" when you sent this message. I'm thinking maybe "regional" makes it a bit confusing because it may imply regions such as Kanto, Johto, etc. For now I moved it to "List of localization changes in the Pokémon games". --Daniel Carrero (talk) 14:52, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Fan speculation

Currently there's the warning at the top saying "This article contains fan speculation." / "There is no solid evidence for or against some parts of this article."

What parts of the article might qualify as fan speculation? Maybe we can remove the fan speculation? It seems most of the article consists of objective facts like "This thing originally found in Japanese was changed in the international versions". --Daniel Carrero (talk) 22:58, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

• In the Pokémon categories section:
  • Blastoise, Kabuto, and Kabutops - "The "Shellfish" word was a translation mistake. The Japanese version indicates that these Pokémon were originally intended to be "Shell Pokémon"." This is unsourced and speculative.
  • Kangaskhan - "The Japanese category refers to both parent and child, but the child is not mentioned in the English translation, most likely because of character limits." The last part is speculation.
• In the Moves section:
  • Acid Armor - "The Japanese name does not include the words "Acid" or "Armor" in any way. "Acid" may have been added in the localization because this is a Poison-type move, even though several non-Poison Pokémon are able to learn it. "Armor" may have been added in the localization because this move raises the user's Defense." This contains speculation.
  • Mirror Move - "The reference to a parrot (a real-life bird) may be related to the fact that several Pokémon that can learn this move are birds, such as Pidgey and Chatot." This is speculation.
  • Tail Whip - "The English name "Tail Whip" may incorrectly imply that the user strikes the foe with its tail like a whip, which is not the case in the games. However, in the manga Pokémon Adventures, the Tail Whip user sometimes actually strikes its opponent with the tail, which may be consistent with the English name." This is speculative/opinionated.
  • Waterfall - "In several games, a waterfall appears when this move is used in-battle. This may incorrectly suggest that the user is summoning a waterfall, which would be inconsistent with the move description." This is speculative/opinionated.
  • Sweet Kiss - "In some games, a small angel appears in the move animation. This is related to Generation I move Lovely Kiss (Japanese: あくまのキッス Demon's Kiss)." This is speculative/unclear.
• In the Items section:
  • Ultra Ball - "The Ultra Ball retains a letter H on its design, referencing its Japanese name." This could technically be seen as speculation without a source.
  • Beast Ball - "Both the Japanese and English names reference the fact that it was developed to catch Ultra Beasts. Its name changed in the English localization because the Japanese name was already taken by another Poké Ball variant introduced in Generation I, the Ultra Ball." This contains speculation. The second sentence contains an unsourced claim.
• In the In the core series section:
  • Generation I - Pokémon Red, Blue, and Yellow
    • The film on TV at the player's living room depends on the game's language.
      • "In all languages except French, a movie involving four boys walking on railroad tracks, possibly a reference to Stand by Me." This contains speculation.
      • "In the French version of the Generation I games, an animated cartoon featuring a boy with a monkey tail (French: "Un dessin animé! Un petit garçon avec une queue de singe."), possibly a reference to young Son Goku from Dragon Ball, or alternatively, young Son Gohan from the sequel Dragon Ball Z." This contains speculation.
    • In the Japanese versions of Generation I games (as well as in all versions of Generation II games and Pokémon Stadium series games), the moves Absorb, Mega Drain, Leech Life, and Dream Eater always fail if the target is behind a substitute.
      • "Both the original effect (always miss when behind a substitute) and the localized Generation I effect (always hit behind a substitute) were likely unintended. The change in effect for localized games likely is a side-effect from a fix that was meant to prevent Swift to always hit a target behind a substitute (even if the target is in the semi-invulnerable turn of Fly or Dig)." This contains speculation.
    • In the Japanese version of all Kanto-based games, the characters Erik (Japanese: コージ Kōji) and Sara (Japanese: アツコ Atsuko) may be cameos of Kōji Nishino and Atsuko Nishida. This is speculation.

These are just some examples. There is more, but I stopped before the Generation II section, and also excluded some points from prior to that section that were borderline speculation but pass as a logical inference (at least, in my opinion). If people feel these aren't truly speculative, maybe we can keep them and remove the warning. But if we agree that they are speculation, then either they should be removed, or the warning should stay. Landfish7 09:54, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

I see, thanks for the examples. I suppose some of those can be edited on a case-by-case basis.

Still, those kinds of comments are often in other articles too. Like... player's house mentions Stand By Me (and then I added Dragon Ball too in the past), Ultra Ball mentions the H design, Beast Ball mentions how the name was changed in relation to the earlier Ultra Ball, etc.

The article seems correct when it mentions that Substitute had a problem in the Japanese version, and that the localized version fixed this problem but introduced another problem. To be fair, maybe this can be worded some other ways.

I'm thinking that wording like "this may be" instead of "this is" can usually be used for this kind of interpretation, right?

I suppose we can also compare the Japanese and English versions of a move like "Waterfall" / "Waterfall Climb" and explain the difference. A waterfall animation does appear in battle too.

This reminds me a bit about the Pokémon "origin" claims. I don't suppose you would argue that all Pokémon species articles also need the warning "This article contains fan speculation." because of the origins? Like how the Charmander article says this:

• "As Charizard is based on a European dragon, Charmander's lizardlike design seems to reference how Western dragons in folklore are heavily inspired by lizards and other reptiles, as well as how various types of lizards are likened to (and named after) dragons due to this connection. Its bipedal design resembles a baby therapod dinosaur." (some speculation here?)
• "Charmander may be a combination of char (to burn) and salamander." (some speculation here too?)

--Daniel Carrero (talk) 21:51, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

I suppose it comes down to how much speculation is in the article. If we could reduce the amount of speculation, I'd say removing the warning could be fine. But articles such as Charmander's that only feature speculation in one section don't really need a warning, in my opinion. Landfish7 23:47, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Why does this page exist

I don't really understand the purpose of having this as a standalone page. Just like dub edits in anime episodes, localization changes should be documented on the pages for the individual games, not on a separate page attempting to catalogue every single localization change across the entire franchise. (I don't think "List of localization changes in the Pokémon anime" would be a good page either.)

The main purpose that I can kind of see is that it allows comparing the localization decisions of remakes with the originals, particularly for Kanto-based games. Although if that's really the primary purpose, I think a page dedicated to localization changes for those specific games would be better than a page attempting to cover localization across all Pokémon games.

The one section that perhaps could justify this page existing as a separate page is the "Main lists" section. But that section seems to mostly just be nitpicking name translations. I don't think it's a problem for a move's page to provide further context to the Japanese name (e.g. that Cut's Japanese name refers to a specific Japanese martial art), but I really don't see the value in creating a list like this page does separate from the individual move/item/Ability/etc. pages. There will never be a complete list of moves/items/etc. whose names changed in translation, because there are always going to be multiple ways to translate the same name, and there are always going to be Japanese names that cannot be translated directly to English without losing some amount of context. --SnorlaxMonster 13:43, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I see it would make sense to move the game sections here to the game pages.

Maybe the Pokémon Red and Blue page can list all the localization changes introduced in those games, but the Pokémon Yellow page would not need to repeat them all again. It can just link to the Red and Blue page and mention what else changed in Yellow if we want to avoid too much overlap between those pages.

In particular, the "Graphics" section from Pokémon Gold and Silver, the "Localization changes" section from Pokémon Crystal, and the "Trivia" section from Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver already have much of the same content found on these game sections from this page. Maybe this information should be more consistently written as "Localization changes" on the game pages. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 07:07, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

I see that not many people discussed here in these two months so far.

If it's okay, I think that at some point I'd like to do as proposed here and move some information from this page to the game pages. As I was saying before, some game pages already basically had the complete list of localization changes even before this discussion started. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 20:09, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

I've started splitting the information here into the "Localization changes" section of game pages like Pokémon Red and Blue Versions, Pokémon FireRed and LeafGreen Versions, etc. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 11:23, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, this page is just "a lot", and too broad, et cetera. But I think the best solution is to just move this to "localization" and pare it way down (/move the extra info to elsewheres).

A broad localization page can talk about so many things. Some of the things mentioned here may be best covered on a generic page like that as opposed to randomly buried on other pages where they're hard to find (like "save"/report and ft/m). And there's obviously plenty to touch on in other media like the anime, or manga or TCG or whatever. Tiddlywinks (talk) 21:37, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree about using a broad "Localization" page for generic things like the "save"/"report".

Like you said, the "Localization" page can explain broadly how localization works in the games, anime, TCG, etc.

The details about each game in particular can probably be kept in the article about each game page as discussed above. If someone wants to see a list of localization changes in Red and Blue, it should be easier to check the article about those games than scrolling through a long list of localizations of all games. --Daniel Carrero (talk)

Move?

This feels more like a List of localization changes article than a quality article about the topic of Localization of Pokémon media. The content here seems better suited to the title of 'Localization' or the like. Landfish7 14:27, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I see based on the discussion above that the page was moved to broaden its scope, but none of the heavy-lifting has been done to make sure the page actually appropriately covers the broader topic or to move off the minor details to a more appropriate space. Landfish7 15:00, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

To clarify, a lot of content was moved to other pages before the page was moved, but this has left a pretty hollow page behind for something that's supposed to broadly discuss the localization of Pokémon media. Landfish7 15:05, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the consecutive comments, but I also wanted to say that while this only covers localization of animated media, I still think it gives a good idea of how this topic could be covered for other media as well. The dub page could certainly be given more of a significant reference here as well. Landfish7 15:10, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I imagine the dub page could be merged as the animation section of a more expansive localization article. When I was working on the intros of Voice Actor articles, it was definitely something that felt more proper to link to, instead of the dub article. ^Maverick_Nate 00:33, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

This page really should be moved. This page was originally titled "List of Regional differences in the Pokémon games" before being changed twice by the page creator to Regional then Localizations then Regional changes again (don't feel like retyping the full page title) and then a year later being changed to Localizations causing the pages original purpose to be lost. If the page is moved, it should go back to its original purpose of covering regional changes to the games. While looking through, I see the small sprite table I had made for the Generation II games was removed at some point despite it showing the visual changes between sprites between the Japanese and International versions of the games which confuses me. Looking at various changes, seems the pages original use was eventually slimmed down to the bare minimal it feels like. Sorry if this sounds like an angry rant, just more a case of being confused on why the page title changed so many times and eventually became more barebones. Frozen Fennec 01:02, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Frozen Fennec: I don't think any of the localization changes were lost, they are just on the game pages instead of all together on this page. I see you have added the table with Generation II sprites here back in December 2020: Pokémon Gold and Silver#Localization changes.

I originally created this page in 2020 to list all the regional differences together in one place. I eventually moved this page to "Localization" in April 2024 based on the discussion above and also after talking with other admins about it at the time.

This link is the latest revision when this page still had all games together. However, the localization changes were sometimes duplicated between the actual game pages and this list as in the case of the Generation II sprites. In the past, I tried to keep this list with all the content from game pages, but they were soon getting out of sync when people edited one page but not the other. Eventually, some people basically told me that this list was getting too long and it was too much scrolling to find the right game on the list.

As far as I'm concerned, feel free to discuss what to do with this page. Do people actually want a very long list of all localization changes in the games in one place? After the move to "Localization", the game pages were also expanded with more examples of localization changes added by me and other people. Our coverage of localization changes is expected to grow whenever future games are released. If we check the dialogue of the past games, we will probably find more examples of localization changes as well.

In the case of anime, each episode has its own "Dub edits" section instead of a very long page like "List of dub changes in animation" listing all dub changes of all episodes together. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 12:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Sorry it took so long to get back to you on this one, been a bit busy with work as of late. Reading the response, I can understand why the page was shortened. If the page ever got re-expanded, would probably be a pain given you have the core games but then need to factor in all the side / spin-off series games as well and that could make the page way longer than it was. If the main issue is inconsistent edits between pages, it makes more sense why this page was shortened to where it is now. ^^ Frozen Fennec 14:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)