Talk:Bulletproof (Ability)

"Immune"?

I assume "immune" just means "takes no damage"? If so, it'd be good to say that instead of "immune". Tiddlywinks (talk) 16:58, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

immune or unaffected is a better fit. if you say takes no damage from the attack it doesn't cover any effects those moves may have (quick example, it is immune to sludge bomb and it's effects rather than taking no damage from sludge bomb but possibly getting poisoned) --Needude72 (talk) 13:12, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

My problem was/is that "immune" sounds like maybe those moves can't even be used. (In other words, the exact meaning of "immune" isn't really clear.) "Unaffected" or (as is currently on the page) "not affected" are definitely better than "immune". Tiddlywinks (talk) 13:39, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't know of ANY definition of immune that would indicate that the Pokemon who had those moves would be prevented from using those moves on Pokemon that didn't have bulletproof but there was a Pokemon that did have bulletproof on the field (double/triple battles). The only thing I know about immune is that the Pokemon itself cannot be affected by those attacks if it has Bulletproof. I don't know how it makes sense that the moves can't even be used, because that's not what immune means. Immune means unaffected as in by something, not that it would be incapable of doing something. Immune wouldn't mean that if Chespin had seed bomb it couldn't use it against a different Pokemon that doesn't have bulletproof. Bulletproof is about affecting the "holder's" defense and affecting the opponent's offense, but not the other way. Nor does bulletproof as far am I aware redirect attacks to it, which is also has nothing to do with being immune. --Dman dustin (talk) 16:20, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

When I said "can't (even) be used", I meant "against the Pokemon with Bulletproof".

The problem is, while "unaffected" directly implies a clear cause and effect (the move is used and the result is "no effect"), "immune" (all by itself) does not. Tiddlywinks (talk) 17:52, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Then I need clarification purposes, because in what way could a Pokemon be immune to a move and it does not have a clear cause and effect and requires the "unaffected" wording? Because I'm confused as to how "immune" isn't good enough, I mean it's no big deal, but it's really confusing. Because Pokemon is a game, and these abilities are programmed, I can't imagine a difference of programming from something immune and something unaffected. I can't see how a game would be programmed that a move couldn't be used against something that is immune, as in preventing the opposing player from selecting the move to be used. Logically I can't imagine seeing it work since even in terms of non programming, I can't imagine in a world in a real life setting where a Pokemon "immune" to flamethrower would prevent a Pokemon using flamethrower on the Pokemon with immunity. --Dman dustin (talk) 13:21, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

If a move could not be used on a Pokemon, it would not be wrong to say it is immune to that move. (You're welcome to think it's dumb or something, but it works.) By contrast, you could not say it is unaffected by the move, because that implies the move is actually used; the closest would be to say the Pokemon cannot be affected.

I'm not sure what to tell you about "programming"; I think you're starting to overthink things there. This discussion is only about how *we* (here on this wiki/page) describe Bulletproof's effect, and how that description is interpreted. Tiddlywinks (talk) 13:44, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

I've never seen an instance where a Pokemon being immune means that it would prevent the opposing player from using the move. Your description of immune, means that when the opponent selects a move, it won't select it saying "The opposing Pokemon is immune" and allows the opposing player to select a different move. The best example, I can think of where that was ever the case, was when a move was disabled, but that wasn't because the Pokemon was immune, it was because the opposing Pokemon was incapable of using that move due to the move being disabled. But as far as I'm aware, you can always use a move on a Pokemon immune, unaffected or otherwise, it just has no obvious effect, and you waste a turn. Is there an example of this vagueness/limitation in regards to saying a Pokemon is immune to how different it would be to just saying it is "unaffected" because I'm not remembering any sort of example. Because even with the use of other abilities/moves or by cheating all moves can affect a Pokemon under the right circumstance, either by changing the opponent's type or changing its ability. Or if there is NO real Pokemon example of what you mean, could you make up one? --Dman dustin (talk) 17:54, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

You are arguing that people should know that the game never prevents a player from using a move. That is not an acceptable position for us to take.

Just because you haven't seen a thing, that in no way means it is impossible. To frame it more generally, there is absolutely no guarantee that a given person knows the effects of every move; especially, that they know those effects in detail (for instance, at one point, it had never occurred to me that Leech Seed would "stick" even if its user had fainted). Even if our wordings imply something that happens nowhere in the games, that in no way makes it okay for us to use that wording. We do not place the burden on the reader to know the game well enough to correctly guess what we mean; that goes against the entire point of a wiki in the first place. Tiddlywinks (talk) 22:03, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Trivia: Cannon?

Does Hydro Cannon belong with Spike and Flash? Eragon4 (talk) 23:57, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Bullet Punch Notability

I saw that my edit was reverted regarding the addition of Bullet Punch to the Trivia section of this article. I had thought the addition of this move to the page was notable since the name itself directly contradicts with the name of this ability. I realize that the move name and description is not directly saying that the attack is using actual bullets, but there is still a comparison being drawn between the punches comprising the attack and bullets themselves. The fact that both the ability and the move names in English and Japanese are contradictory in this way was in my opinion what makes this trivium notable, as well as making adding it to the page worthwhile.

Regarding the other move that is affected by this ability which also has the word "bullet" in at least its English name (in Japanese the move name is translated as "Seed Machine Gun"), Bullet Seed seems to only be included in the moves that this ability protects against for its name and that alone. Seeds are neither balls nor bombs, but because they are being fired as "Bullet"s from a metaphorical "Machine Gun", it makes sense why the move would be included with the other ball or bomb moves. I would posit that this distinction is also noteworthy enough to be included in the trivia section of this article.

As a side note, bullets do not inherently have a speed, as they are only objects in any given circumstance. Both the move's name and description literally reference bullets, as well as the speed at which they are capable of travelling, so I would personally disagree with the edit summary of the reversion stating that actual bullets are not being referred to. Lavince ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (talk) 01:26, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Bullet Punch involves fast punching whilst Bullet Seed involves firing a volley of seeds at the opponent. Two very different moves using two very different implications of the word "bullet". As for why Bullet Seed is on the list, I'm sure that's a Game Freak thing and not us, we didn't put it there just because. And I doubt Game Freak added it because of the name, I'd assume they thought the mechanic and description of the move was close enough to be considered a bomb/ball move. As such, Bullet Punch isn't there and isn't notable because it's not a bomb/ball move nor could be interpreted as one.--ForceFire 06:02, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

I was saying that Game Freak included Bullet Seed in the list because of the name since as shown with other seed moves, Seed Bomb is obviously a bomb move and Seed Flare must not be a ball or bomb move since it isn't included. If the concept of a move that uses seeds was close enough then why aren't all seed moves in this list? That's what's driving my opinion that they only included it because of the name. It's also why I think adding this information is notable because only some seed moves are included and only some bullet moves are included. Lavince ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (talk) 19:45, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

There are only two (out of six) seed moves on the list, where one already has "bomb" in its name, so saying Bullet Seed is in there because of Seed Bomb is reaching since Seed Bomb is most likely in there because of the bomb in its name and not seed. Just say there was a move called "Ember Ball", that would be added to the ball/bomb moves (or not, Game Freak can be weird some times) because of the word "Ball", not because of the word "Ember" nor would it mean "Ember" is suddenly should be on the list because the former has the word "Ember" in it.

With "Bullet", there are literally only two moves with the word Bullet in it (Bullet Punch and Bullet Seed), both with very different connotations of the word. Bullet Punch is described as being "as fast as a bullet" not that it involves actual bullet-like projectiles like Bullet Seed.

Sure, my explanation of Game Freak putting Bullet Seed in there for the mechanics of the move is speculation, but that's what I'm leaning more towards, since the only other seed move in there already has the word bomb in it and the only other bullet move is a punching move and not a projectile move.--ForceFire 05:04, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

I was trying to say something different than what your first point suggests, which is my opinion that bullet seed is included for the word bullet, and seed bomb is included for the word bomb. This also goes back to something your first reply mentioned, wherein you said "I'd assume they thought the mechanic and description of the move was close enough to be considered a bomb/ball move." You did also say that it was speculation, but I think the name is a much stronger argument for why it would be included than the description. There are only three damaging seed moves (in games that have abilities at least, looking at you sappy seed) which is why I wasn't trying to say that "seed" itself was enough to say it should be included. The trivium as I had written it had specifically mentioned your final point because, even as someone who knows a lot of unnecessary information about these games, I had thought that Game Freak would have included bullet punch solely for its name and was surprised that it wasn't included. They like to take things literally quite often I feel and knowing that and seeing this list had thusly subverted my expectations, that's what drove me to think this was worth mentioning. I just want to properly explain why I thought as much but I understand if it's still not so in your opinion. Also I would think that say for example you have bulletproof glass, I would expect that the glass would hold up to very fast punches as well, further driving my preconceived notion. I guess Game Freak also disagrees with my opinion in that regard lol Lavince ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (talk) 05:47, 23 June 2021 (UTC)