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Talk:Rollout (move)

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Defense Curl

So if a Pokémon uses Defense curl then rollout, on the fifth turn the attack will have a base power of 960? That seems kinda high. Derian 18:55, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I was wondering about this too. Even without defense curl, the 5th turn has a power of 480. That seems a bit ridiculous. --Legollama 20:26, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
According to a question and answer on PokeBase, the rollout-boosting effect of defense curl is not baton passed, so apparently not. The answer doesn't include any details on how they performed the test, but I'm guessing based on the date that it was most likely in a 5th gen game. Grumbledwarfskin (talk) 01:02, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Baton Pass

If Defense Curl is used and Baton Pass is used, the effect of Rollout is still enhanced, yes? ht14 22:23, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Base Power After x Moves

This page seems a bit underlooked. There have already been several discussions about the power of rollout after x moves. The behaviour shown on the page seems wildly unlikely.

Here is some data without defense curl after a certain number of moves as the page says (x2 starting from 30):

  • 1 - 30
  • 2 - 60
  • 3 - 120
  • 4 - 240
  • 5 - 480


Here is some data with defense curl after a certain number of moves as the page says (x2 starting from 60):

  • 1 - 60
  • 2 - 120
  • 3 - 240
  • 4 - 480
  • 5 - 960

My theory: the page is wrong and the power doesn't double each successful hit, it adds 30 to the power each successful hit.

With my theory without defense curl [y = 30x + 30]:

  • 1 - 30
  • 2 - 60
  • 3 - 90
  • 4 - 120
  • 5 - 150

With my theory with defense curl [y=30x+2x30, or y = 30x + 60]:

  • 1 - 60
  • 2 - 90
  • 3 - 120
  • 4 - 150
  • 5 - 180

With my theory with defense curl [y=2(30+30x), or y = 60x + 60]:

  • 1 - 60
  • 2 - 90
  • 3 - 180
  • 4 - 240
  • 5 - 300

With the BEDMAS I used above, I realised that the page doesn't state whether the base power or the total power is doubled (which is irrelevant in the clearly wrong information on the page).

Let's compare how balanced the power of the fifth successful strike is. First we should look at the probability of getting this far to show the relevance the figure. For this we will exclude any variables that will stop the strikes from being unsuccessful other than their base power (such as a protect move, disable, forced switchout, fainting, running out of pokemon etc.). The probability of all of the previous and the fifth strike hitting is 0.9^5 = 0.59049. Multiplying the accuracy probability with the final strike's power gives the average power. This shows that the page's incorrect data still does the whooping average power of 566.8704 and 265.7205 with and without defense curl first respectively. This is more than Explosion which is one of the most powerful moves because it requires sacrificing yourself. Other than slightly low accuracy, rollout has no disadvantages, not even recoil. Alternately, with the averages from the final results from my more likely formulae, without defense curl gives 88.5735 and with my two different formulae for with defense curl give 106.2882 (underpowered) and 177.147 (balanced).

In conclusion, the main page is wrong in terms of power accumulation for Rollout_(move) and instead of double in power each successful strike starting from 30, the power goes up by 30 each successful strike (y = 30x). Using Defense_Curl before rollout most likely doubles the base power (y = 60x) as increasing each strike by 30 would not be worth it (just use rollout once more after it finishes). If anyone disagrees with this conclusion, they will need to show evidence in favour of the main page's theory, as this is is more conclusive than the page which has no source. Thanks Pokepro97 (talk) 23:31, 13 April 2014 (UTC).

I'm worried nobody will see this and it will rot with the page continuing to be wrong, so if there is no response tomorrow, I will fix the page and hopefully that'll get someone's attention. Thanks Pokepro97 (talk) 16:59, 13 April 2014 (UTC).

I don't fully understand everything you're trying to say above, but it sounds like you're just guessing. Editing a page on a mere theory, lacking any actual supporting facts, would not be appropriate. It shouldn't be that hard to test. Tiddlywinks (talk) 20:52, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Not guessing, writing an appropriate hypothesis, testing it in comparison with rough experimental data (past experience with rollout) and showing what is clearly incorrect.- unsigned comment from Pokepro97 (talkcontribs)
I don't see any "experimental data". I don't even see you mentioning any "past experience" with Rollout. All I see is you saying, "According to the page currently, Rollout is more powerful than I consider plausible." That doesn't cut it; that's pure opinion. Until you can cite damage numbers supporting your theory over the page's current theory, it would be wrong for you to change it. Tiddlywinks (talk) 00:16, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Rough experimental data - past experience. I've used rollout a lot and it seems to increase in power in a linear fashion and not exponential. - unsigned comment from Pokepro97 (talkcontribs)
I had a suspicion that was your meaning. I also suspect these observations are not even recent; in particular, not at any time when you explicitly had this theory. If that's the case, they must be viewed with suspicion and you should attempt to observe it anew (on the exact same Pokemon with the exact same stats the whole time). In either case, though, it would still be much preferable if you could give definite damage numbers, so that anyone can check for themselves what sort of calculations they match up to. Tiddlywinks (talk) 01:20, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Alright, I am unable to test that for myself, could anyone please do this for me? Thanks, Pokepro97 (talk) 01:27, 15 April 2014 (UTC).
I guess so...
Tanking: Throh
turn 1 2 3 4 5
before 383 382 379 370* 359
after 382 379 373 359 338
damage 1 3 6 11 21
turn 1 2 3 4 5
before 384 384 384 384 384
after 383 381 372crit 374 364
damage 1 3 12/2= 6 10 20
Tanking: Gigalith
turn 1 2 3 4 5
before 324 320* 316 308* 293
after 321 316 309 293 268
damage 3 4 7 15 25
turn 1 2 3 4 5
before 324 324 324 324 324
after 320 320 317 309 266crit
damage 4 4 7 15 58/2= 29
In the right tables, I decided to heal Throh/Gigalith after each turn. (This is in White.) They were both lv100 (Defense: Throh: 203, Gigalith: 313), while a lv49 Shuckle was using Rollout (Attack: 29). If anyone wants to try to run that through the damage formula, feel free (remember Rollout is only half effective against Throh). Gigalith's first two turns are odd, but after that the damage is mostly doubling each turn, and Throh's damage pretty well doubles after every turn. I'm satisfied that the page's current text is right. Tiddlywinks (talk) 02:45, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
To make it easier on everyone, I asked a researcher (Kaphotics) about it. This move has been pretty much thoroughly researched. This page shows the formula (search the page for Rollout to find it easily.) --It's Funktastic~!話してください 02:56, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

won't save

I'm removing the part about the level 100 shuckle and max damage thing since it's outdated (the move is ice ball now), but it's not saving. I get a 500 error every time (7 tries). I added it to ice ball page fine, though. help? Natnew (talk) 22:54, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I removed the trivia point. --NOBODY (talk) 00:06, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
Thanks Natnew (talk) 11:10, 29 April 2014 (UTC)