Talk:Side series

Creation

I'm going to change it back to be it's own article again soon. It leads to huge contraction on "Spin-off Pokémon games" and making it redirect again is mindless obstruction not willing to fix the issue and I'll report it to the staff.--Rocket Grunt 19:44, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, no. You're not doing that. You didn't even read my edit summary: Do not do as you please. If staff tells you not to do something, you follow their warning. There's already a userpage in the works and the staff have talked about it briefly, albeit privately.--ForceFire 04:26, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Dream Radar

Why is this included here? The only criterion given is ability to transfer Pokémon to core series and GO is able to do that much more than this is. CyberDragonM (talk) 14:25, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Hello! So when I wrote the criteria I meant that any Pokemon game that has extended functionality with the core games that can't be considered a core game counts as a side series game, the example I used PokemonXD Gale of Darkness can transfer to the gen 3 games, I’m not sure if it was clear enough but according to the definition I wrote ANY game that isn’t considered a core series game that has extended functionality with the core series can be a side series while Pokémon go and dream radar can do more they still are side series vs. games like mystery dungeon that have no connection to the main line games and thus are spinoffs Mego17 (talk) 14:37, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

In that case, Pokémon GO, the Pokémon Ranger series (Manaphy egg), and many other games need to be moved to the side series. CyberDragonM (talk) 14:40, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I think it's about being able to interact both ways with core series games. The Manaphy Egg can only transferred one way, and the Pokémon transferred from GO to Let's Go can't be sent the other way. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 15:10, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

In that case, Pokémon Dream Radar is a Spin-off game. CyberDragonM (talk) 15:15, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

That’s where the Extended comes in, in the case of Pokémon ranger it’s a one time deal and you can’t do anything after that no free items, no Pokemon transfers (not like you actually catch much Pokemon) ETC. Mego17 (talk) 15:20, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I do agree about Pokémon go though I’m not sure why it isn’t there I meant to add it in thanks! Mego17 (talk) 15:21, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Plus Pokémon let’s go Pikachu and Eevee is also one way Mego17 (talk) 15:22, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I think Pokémon Pikachu 2 GS fits the thing that excludes Ranger, and also, it seems like your definition disagrees with that of a staff member. CyberDragonM (talk) 15:25, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

But LGPE is defined as Core Series. It’s different. CyberDragonM (talk) 15:26, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I know it was written before I saw the message from the staff Mego17 (talk) 15:27, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I think we might want to rework the definition to be more clear and to add in some of your points Mego17 (talk) 15:28, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

(resetting indent)As best as I understand it, side series games are usually one of two things. Either A.) Games that closely follow the core series formula, but are explicitly stated to not be core series by official sources e.g. Colosseum, XD; and B.) Games that are used for the storage of Pokémon e.g. Stadium, Box, Home. Additionally, some games are deemed side series because they are convenient for us as a wiki to put their data together, such as Colo and XD which have lots of similar mechanics that benefit from being placed together with the core series on pages. If it doesn't neatly fall within one of those two spaces, and is not something with substantial similarities in mechanics and data such that we'd want to list it with core series data, then it's not something that would be considered useful as part of side series. Landfish7 15:32, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

My point was to either remove Dream Radar from this page or include GO. You can’t construe Dream Radar as more connective than GO, so by the end of this, one of these should happen. CyberDragonM (talk) 15:33, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Should we change the definition? Mego17 (talk) 15:43, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Dream Radar is a game whose sole function is to interact with core series games. I think that's a pretty good reason to classify it as a side series game. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 15:52, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Yeah if something is essentially an extension of the core series, I think side series suits it. Landfish7 15:53, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

The current definition would imply that GO and the rest are side series. How should we reword the definition so that it is accurate? CyberDragonM (talk) 17:24, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Just say "side series" is a Bulbapedia/fandom original term and acknowledge the grey area everywhere because of it. You know, like Transformers wiki does for its article on Continuity Family which is equally an organization schema created and used because it is useful. Then the fact there is no agreed upon set of rules and most of the calls are on feel stops being a problem. Salmancer (talk) 17:29, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Since "side series" is not an official term, it appears that we have some freedom to discuss and decide which games belong in this category.

If there's no objection, maybe we could agree to call Pokémon GO a side series game. It's true that Pokémon GO is not defined solely based on its connectivity to the core series, but several other side series games like Stadium, Colosseum, and XD can also be played as their own games without connecting to the core series. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 18:59, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

(Resetting Indent) (this comment was posted in response to Salmancer) In that case, we would need to list either all of the spin-off games that are sometimes considered side-series games or only the ones that are always considered as such. Otherwise, we would just be using an arbitrary list of games, so if we are including Dream Radar and excluding GO, we need a clear definition. CyberDragonM (talk) 19:04, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that both Dream Radar and GO fit the current definition given in the intro of the "side series" article. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 19:13, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but the current definition would also accept games like Ranger and Channel. We need a new definition if we are going to exclude games like these. CyberDragonM (talk) 06:27, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it's true that Ranger and Channel fit the current definition given in the intro of the "side series" article. The intro even mentions that side series games "allow for other kinds of rewards or bonuses" which is the case for Ranger and Channel.

Here's one possible idea: Maybe we could agree to change this definition and consider that Ranger and Channel are not side series games because their connection to the side series is merely limited to special one-of-a-kind rewards.

If we transfer Jirachi from Channel (which appears doable only once per Ruby/Sapphire save file and requires beating the Elite Four in the current save) or Manaphy from Ranger (which appears doable only once per Ranger game card regardless of deleting the save data from Ranger or DPPt/HGSS), then there's basically nothing else to do from Ranger or Channel in relation to the core series games. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 06:49, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, Pokémon Pikachu 2 GS would also fit the new definition. Should it be included in the page? CyberDragonM (talk) 06:53, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Daniel's suggestion sounds good to me. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 08:35, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

(Resetting Indent) Which suggestion are you referring to? Including GO, or allowing all games that can connect with core series games more than once? CyberDragonM (talk) 08:40, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

I see you asked above about Pokémon Pikachu 2 GS. I think you are right about that. It seems to fits those two definitions of "side series":

• PP2GS fits the definition currently stated on the "side series" article (it allows for rewards or bonuses)
• PP2GS also fits the stricter definition that I suggested above (the player is able to receive an unlimited number of item rewards instead of a single one-of-a-kind reward per game or save file)

However, its predecessor Pokémon Pikachu does not seem to fit any of those definitions. It would appear weird to say that those games belong in completely different categories, stating that Pokémon Pikachu is a spin-off game while Pokémon Pikachu 2 GS is a side series game instead

As said above, "side series" is not an official categorization. These days, I've been trying to check if the wording "side series" is used in any official sources like manuals and guidebooks but didn't find it so far. In official media, they are often just referred to as "games" instead of "side series games", such as in this quote from Pokémon.com: "Pokémon Stadium is the first game to show Pokémon in 3-D [...]" (link)

I suppose our options for now are:

• Try to implement a consistent definition that clearly separates all "side series" from all "non-side series" games for Bulbapedia purposes.
• Use an arbitrary list of "side series" games with no consistent definition (this is currently the case).
• Drop the "side series" wording altogether and call all of those games "spin-off games" instead, including Stadium, Colosseum, GO, Dream Radar, Pokémon Pikachu, Pokémon Pikachu 2 GS, etc.

--Daniel Carrero (talk) 08:53, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, those do seem to be our options. CyberDragonM (talk) 09:26, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

My vote goes for one of the first two options, no question. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 11:56, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

If it mattered, my vote would go to the first option, as I would like a clear distinction between the two categories. CyberDragonM (talk) 12:04, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Simply being able to receive minor items or rewards or even a special Pokémon to me does not indicate that a game is closely related to the core series, which is fundamentally what the side series categorization is for. Landfish7 19:08, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Sounds logical to me. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 19:14, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

(resetting indent)I think a clear definition that would result in the current list of games is “The side series of Pokémon games is a fan designation of games that (1) serve as an expansion to the main series and are not meant to stand alone, and/or (2) share the main series battle system to a great extent.” The first has been the main argument for including Dream Radar, and the second is the reason for including Orre games. It might need some revision, but it’s the first complete definition anyone has put up. CyberDragonM (talk) 19:37, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Slightly disagree in that side series games are occasionally both standalone experiences in addition to being extensions of the core series. Landfish7 19:47, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I considered that and said “not meant to stand alone.” The stadium games and PBR fit the second option, PW was packaged with HGSS, Dream World was a demo without a game connected, and “Dream Radar is a game whose sole function is to interact with core series games” (Finnish, above). CyberDragonM (talk) 20:01, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

After your newest edit, I think GO belongs here. It was meant to be standalone, but it now serves as an extension of the core series, with a dedicated dex in Pokémon HOME next to the ones from the core series and several Pokémon that can only be obtained through it or Bank. The GO park and HOME are what extends the series through GO. My definition was written as would maintain the current list, but I would like GO to join it. CyberDragonM (talk) 20:23, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I think I would support the idea of calling Pokémon GO a side series game. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 20:35, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

GO is quite borderline. A lot of people feel like it's more of its own animal, so it's hard to say, but there's a compelling argument to say that it belongs. Landfish7 20:44, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

One thing that I think hurts its eligibility is that it lacks the ability to send Pokémon directly to the core series, needing to go through HOME, which is a side series game. It also lacks the ability to receive and store Pokémon, a trait common amongst side series games (something I've edited the page to include, as I feel this aspect has been missing). Landfish7 21:01, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm personally leaning towards GO being a spin-off due to reasons similar to the above, though I admit, it's hard to say. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 21:15, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

GO Park is very sad it was forgotten, as it indeed lets GO link directly to a core series game. I'd also like to point out the Poke Ball Plus having dual purpose as a major point of connection. Salmancer (talk) 21:19, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

(resetting indent) Dream Radar could be excluded for the same reasons you mentioned above, Landfish: Dream Radar connects to B2W2, while GO connects to LGPE, and both lack the ability to receive and store Pokémon. The main difference was that Dream Radar was never meant to stand alone, while GO was meant to. Therefore, we have four options: Exclude Dream Radar, Include GO, include in the definition something about the game’s original purpose, or leave the page inconsistent with its own definition. CyberDragonM (talk) 14:05, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm thinking it would probably be fine to call Pokémon GO a side series game.

Stadium connects with gen 1, Colosseum connects with gen 3, Ranch connects with gen 4, and so on. The side series games are compatible with some core series games, not necessarily the ones from the current generation.

GO is directly compatible with gen 7 core series and is also indirectly compatible with modern core series games through HOME. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 18:24, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Is this discussion now taking place somewhere else, or is there another reason it just stopped? CyberDragonM (talk) 10:43, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

This appears to be an ongoing discussion, we can still keep discussing. However, to answer your question, sometimes we have been discussing a bit how to define "side series" on Discord as well.

In particular, I would agree with this point that was mentioned on Discord one of these days: basically, a list of games connected to the core series should probably include Pokémon GO regardless of the exact name being "side series" or "spin-off". --Daniel Carrero (talk) 08:25, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

It just seemed weird that no one replied to your message over more than 5 days, but there didn’t seem to be a consensus. I even saw some admins editing the page to fix some formatting, so I thought that meant there was a reason no one was replying to you. CyberDragonM (talk) 09:50, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Pokémon GO

This has come up a lot lately, so I thought I'd make it its own distinct topic. Due to its direct connectivity and close relationship with the core series, even being the only legitimate way to obtain certain Pokémon and forms, Pokémon GO should probably be classified as a side series game. Landfish7 10:51, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 11:25, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

If it mattered, I would agree as well. Nothing objective separates GO and Dream Radar. CyberDragonM (talk) 12:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

As discussed before, we should have some freedom to define what we mean by "side series" since this is an unofficial term.

In the case of Pokémon GO, we have been treating as a spin-off game basically because it originally started with no connectivity to the core series.

However, Pokémon GO now has significant connectivity to the core series. So as said above, I would support calling it a side series game. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 13:41, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I just realized that Pokémon GO was always intended to be connected to the core series. It was mentioned in GO’s prerelease that it would be connected to the next main release, and Sun and Moon has that origin info from GO. Which means the only thing separating it from especially Dream Radar is the difference in time between release date and addition of compatibility with Core Series. So are we waiting for FinnishPokéFan’s opinion before assuming consensus? CyberDragonM (talk) 12:49, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

I have nothing against considering GO a side series game. My bad for not mentioning my opinion yet, I took a break from following this conversation. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 14:00, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

@CyberDragonM: Consensus isn't determined by any particular user's opinion. I'm happy to leave the discussion open longer to give more people time to share their thoughts. Landfish7 16:04, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

"Side series" is a fan-made, nebulous term. All games that aren't the core series are spinoff.--Lewtwo (talk) 16:47, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Bulbapedia classifies side games that are able to connect with core series games as side series games. As I've had time to think, I think adding Pokémon GO to this classification on that specification makes sense. Spin-off games are games that have no connectivity with the core games. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 16:56, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

"Spin-off games are games that have no connectivity with the core games." is not true. This is purely a fandom point. If the site is staunchly taking official terms above all else, then the distinction should be removed, by virtue of being unofficial.--Lewtwo (talk) 16:58, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Are we just collectively forgetting that the Ranger series has connectivity? should that not also be side series by this metric?--Amiosi (talk) 16:59, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

With Ranger, the connectivity is extremely limited and only one-way. GO has major features related to connectivity with core games, such as GO Park in Let's Go!. @Lewtwo Bulbapedia has articles about unofficial things related to Pokémon, and the page has a notification about its name being unofficial. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 17:08, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

{indent} Whoops! For some reason I thought Finnish was a staff member. My bad. CyberDragonM (talk) 17:08, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

No problem. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 17:09, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

The reason I actively took the blame was to make it clear you were not impersonating staff in any way. CyberDragonM (talk) 17:12, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Side series games have significant direct connectivity with the core series beyond the ability to receive a limited number of items, rewards, or Pokémon. Ranger games are their own thing, whereas GO is far more closely related to the core series, being the only way to get certain Pokémon. Holistically, Ranger is a separate series with little to do with the core series aside from the Manaphy tie-in. Pokémon GO on the other hand has always been a sister to the core series games. However, the lack of the ability to store Pokémon in Pokémon GO is still the biggest thing hurting its inclusion, though I wouldn't say it is disqualifying. Landfish7 17:13, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

As long as we have the unofficial "side series" label, personally I would support calling Pokémon GO a side series game.

However, if people want to drop the "side series" wording altogether and call them all simply spin-offs, I suppose that could work too.

Do many people refer to these Pokémon games as "side series" outside of Bulbapedia? Judging from recent Twitter posts, several people use "side series" referring to anime miniseries, actual series of spin-off games such as Ranger, Mystery Dungeon, and Detective Pikachu, as well as the Legends games, etc.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but people outside Bulbapedia rarely seem to use "side series" or any single series label for all things like Stadium, Ranch, Dream World and HOME together. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 17:16, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Landfish: I was saying that if we excluded GO and included Dream Radar, it would have to be because of the time difference between release and compatibility. It seems like everything else is mostly the same between the two. Daniel: So you’re saying BP might have completely invented the term? I would think it at least came from somewhere, and it is useful for the wiki. CyberDragonM (talk) 17:27, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

"Side series" is largely a Bulbapedia construction born out of convenience so that we can organize closely related series data alongside core series data. Even if we didn't have this page or use the term in the mainspace, it would still need to "exist" else we uproot most of how the site works. And yeah, we could stop using the term, but I don't know that the benefits of that would outweigh the drawbacks or unnecessary work required to completely unravel how we organize data on this wiki. I'm not saying there aren't solutions for some of the concerns people have regarding our prominent use of the term, but I don't think abolishing the concept entirely is the only solution nor even a good solution. Landfish7 17:31, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, "side series" is an unofficial term. It appears to have never been used in official media, including game manuals, guidebooks, game boxes, interviews, official videos, and Pokémon.com.

It was either invented by Bulbapedia or it could have been otherwise invented by fans. But as I was saying above, the usage by fans appears to be all over the place and not just for this specific collection of games.

If we check pages like Poké Ball, Bulbapedia often uses this wording as the title of the section "In the side series games" but that could be replaced by "In the core series-related games" or something like that. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 17:56, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

My understanding is that, like Landfish said, the distinction between "side series" and "spin-offs" is one that Bulbapedia made up purely for organizational purposes, so that data from games like Stadium and Colosseum (which mechanically function very similarly to the core series games) can be included with core series games. For example, Pokémon that can learn Double-Edge by tutoring in Pokémon XD are included in the same table as the core series tutors and TMs, and Hoothoot's game location data for the core series includes the Pokéwalker routes and Dream World areas where it can be obtained. (Meanwhile, all the location data for spin-off games is under a header called "in side games", which doesn't make any sense given the distinction that we supposedly make, but that's a different discussion.) So, when it comes to classifying GO as a side series game or not, I think the question we should be asking ourselves is not "does it have connectivity with the core series", but rather "would users benefit from having GO data included with core series data". And I would say the answer to that question is a definite no. Storm Aurora (talk) 18:20, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

SA makes a lot of good points. In my opinion, I won't mind regardless which way GO falls, though I admit that maybe I lean towards it being a spin-off. Pardon for flip-flopping, but it's been hard to settle on a conclusive opinion for me. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 18:38, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

(resetting indent) Storm Aurora, would you say users would benefit from having Dream Radar data included with core series data? If so, then what would the difference between the two be? CyberDragonM (talk) 18:55, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Discussion on Discord[1] has illuminated a couple things. Largely, side series games fall under one of two definitions (courtesy of Storm Aurora):

1.) games that have very similar gameplay to the core series games (Stadium, Stadium 2, Colosseum, XD, Battle Revolution)

2.) games that solely exist due to their connection with the core series; the game either doesn't work at all or doesn't have much content if you don't connect it to a core series game (Box Ruby and Sapphire, My Pokemon Ranch, Pokewalker, Dream World, Dream Radar, Pokemon Bank, Pokemon Transporter, Pokemon HOME)

I'm inclined to agree with this definition. Therefore, I'd propose adding the following to the page's intro:

The side series of Pokémon games is a fan designation of games that either share marked gameplay similarities or heavily rely on direct interaction and connectivity with the core series games. These side series titles serve as extensions of the core series, often allowing players to transfer caught Pokémon to and from their corresponding core series games or obtain other significant rewards or bonuses, enhancing connectivity and continuity between different game entries. While some spin-off games occasionally offer limited rewards, including items that allow the ability to obtain certain Pokémon in the core games, they lack the gameplay similarities and interconnectivity that are distinct to the side series.

While Pokémon GO is a closely related game to the core series, it is largely an independent experience with its own gameplay and data that does not rely on connection with the main games to be enjoyed. Connectivity between Pokémon GO and certain core series games does allow the ability to obtain certain rewards, Pokémon, and forms, and Pokémon from Pokémon GO can be transferred to the core series; however, Pokémon cannot be transferred from the core series and stored within Pokémon GO. For these reasons, Pokémon GO is not considered a side series title.

Thoughts? ~~

The definition seems somewhat close to the one I proposed in the previous discussion, and I see how “heavily rely on” fits the “not intended to be standalone” from my definition and the “solely exist due to their connection” from Storm’s. Although it is a bit unclear from your post whether you want to include the paragraph about GO in the main article, I think either way would be a consistent definition. CyberDragonM (talk) 19:26, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

I think the paragraph about GO will help explain its exclusion and further clarify why certain things would or would not be included.Landfish7 20:18, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Maybe a sentence or two about Dream Radar would give further clarification, because the larger reason for excluding GO would also exclude Dream Radar. CyberDragonM (talk) 06:55, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Does Dream Radar not rely on a core series game to be experienced? Landfish7 15:47, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

It does. Its main function is to obtain Pokémon and transfer them to a core series game. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 16:05, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

(resetting indent) Sorry, I meant the physically larger reason, the ability to transfer Pokémon from the Core Series. It takes more text to explain, and therefore it might be logical to assume it is more important. CyberDragonM (talk) 18:20, 10 May 2024 (UTC)