Talk:Yawn (move)

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This article says that Safeguard will stop Yawn working, but the article about Safeguard says it won't. Which is correct? --Flicky1991 22:30, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Sleep Counter

I feel that it should be mentioned somewhere on this site (under Yawn(move) or sleep(status condition)) that Yawn's sleep counter begins on the turn after the target falls asleep. It *is* obvious, in the sense that it's 'the way it ought to be.' But it's not obvious in the computer-logic sense. Imho, it's precarious to second-guess the user's assumptions in this regard. Sometimes it's wise for the user to expect common sense, and other times it's wiser to expect rigid logic. In any given instance, it's easy to pick the wrong interpretation. So there should ideally be signposts for the user whenever one prevails *and* the distinction is important.

Granted, most highly-seasoned players would know this about Yawn, from experience. But only most. Some might avoid ever experimenting with Yawn in the first place, because it never occurs to them that this unusual quirk in the sleep counter exists. And not everyone is observant enough to infer it by noticing that Yawn never ends immediately. And besides, should this site only cater to the very-experienced demographic?

I also get that it would be dumb to have Yawn work the 'normal' way, with the sleep counter starting at the same time the target technically falls asleep. It would effectively mean 0-2 turns of sleep, instead of 1-3. That's really dumb. But it's not *obviously* dumb to the average human. Because brains don't work like that. They work on autopilot, mostly. If your autopilot is set to 'assume rigid logic' you just won't see the dumb in it.

Finally, this unique feature of Yawn gives it unique consequences: You can do a move other than the sleeping move **on the first turn** of your opponent's sleep. No other sleeping move can do that. It sounds silly, but it's subtler than it sounds. Think about it. It's not about the fact that the sleep is delayed by one turn when you use Yawn. It's about the fact that it's effectively delayed by *two* turns. Imagine a move which causes sleep at the *start* of the upcoming turn. Now push it forward one more turn. That's what Yawn really is. It's effectively a sleep that starts at the beginning of a future turn, not at the end of one. And that opens up a whole world of possibilities that just don't exist in the same way for other sleep-inducing moves. The one I stumbled across, the one that prompted this post, is Yawn/Shell Smash/Shell Smash. It hinges on the fact that the second Shell Smash occurs on the same turn that the opponent (effectively) falls asleep. This is the unique feature of Yawn I'm talking about: not the delayed-and-drowsy business... the fact that it's delayed til the *start* of a future turn; the very turn you would otherwise be forced to spend using Hypnosis or Sleep Powder or whatever move you would otherwise be using. And that first turn is the only turn of guaranteed sleep you get. So Yawn is the only move whose guaranteed turn of sleep isn't spent using the sleeping move itself.

My point is: It's a secondary unique feature beyond the obvious unique feature of Yawn. And it creates unique opportunities. Readers deserve to be alerted to those opportunities.

--Ofirice (talk) 19:44, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Doesn't all of this assume that the user of a sleep-inducing move is always faster than the opponent? If the user of say, Spore, is slower than its target, the target is guaranteed to stay asleep next turn. The sleep turn count goes down when the sleeping Pokémon attempts to use a move, not when a turn ends. If something should be changed, it's that the sleep article should make that fact clearer.--Den Zen 21:09, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
First off: exactly what Dennou Zenshi says at the end.
It may also be worth mentioning this point that comes up from time to time: Bulbapedia is not a strategy guide (and you're worrying about tactical implications). Tiddlywinks (talk) 01:00, 10 September 2017 (UTC)