Category talk:Moves that deal direct damage

Mutual exclusive

Should moves be in this category if they already belong to its subcategory? Because some are and some aren't.--Rocket Grunt (Report To Me) 09:09, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

I think it used to be mutually exclusive. It looks like you added set-damage moves to this category, and I have no idea why Counterattacks exists (as I said there, I think it's somewhat arbitrary and has no immediate use). I think I prefer to have this mutually exclusive and remove the Counterattacks subcategory, but anything that's reasonable and consistent will do. Nescientist (talk) 11:35, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

I think both Set-damage moves (which only has two moves in it) and Counterattacks should both be deleted and just absorbed into this category. --SnorlaxMonster 12:06, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Rename

Referring to these kinds of moves as "Moves that deal direct damage" is very confusing. Most readers would expect "direct damage" to be the opposite of "indirect damage" (e.g. damage from status conditions, etc.), but it is not. "Fixed damage" is the most obvious name that comes to mind when trying to describe these moves, but the most important thing to me is to get away from the incredibly confusing current title. --SnorlaxMonster 11:52, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree. Very minor, but "fixed" could also mean "not random" (which would have to include Spit Up etc.), so maybe there's another title. I was thinking about "that do not use the damage formula" or something like that, if that's what the category description says anyway. Nescientist (talk) 11:57, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Apparently in Stadium 2 they're referred to as "Set damage moves". I'd be happy to go with that as a name. My one concern is that it doesn't mention Counter and Mirror Coat. --SnorlaxMonster 09:08, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

How about "Set damage and counterattack moves"?--Rocket Grunt 11:46, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

Worth noting that the video doesn't mention Bide either, and says it's examples. (If your concern is that "Set damage moves" might have a more narrow scope than this category has, I believe the "examples" would already make up the exhaustive Generation II list.) Nescientist (talk) 14:38, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

If we're going to consider "Counterattack" moves to not be "Set damage moves" they shouldn't be in the same category. I think we should consider them to be "Set damage moves", so not word the category as if they are not. --SnorlaxMonster 23:54, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

Revived: Rename (I had to start a new section because the last comment in that section was posted in March)

I think SnorlaxMonster is right, and Counter and Mirror Coat should get split into another category titled Category: Counterattack moves, and this category will become Set damage moves. - totally signed comment from Kirbychu Showdown (talk • contribs) 19:31, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

I don't think that's what SnorlaxMonster said.

Also worth noting that you didn't have to start a new section here. Per the talk page policy, "Unless an old conversation is still relevant and there is a good reason to revitalize discussion, comments on sections older than six months old should not be made." And with a move proposal still being up, that related discussion(s) should definitely still be relevant. Nescientist (talk) 11:16, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that I already put the counterattacks in their own category several years ago. The counterattacks do deserve their own category – not because of using a nonstandard damage formula, but because of their similar operating mechanics, with Revenge, Avalanche, and Shell Trap also fitting the bill. I like to refer to them as part of a class of effects that I refer to as "retaliatory effects" (largely for the sake of a hypothetical buff to Rock Head that would also provide some measure of protection against "retaliatory effects" in addition to preventing recoil damage, but that's more of a fangame thing); "retaliatory effects" also include "parry and punish moves" (protection moves that punish Pokémon that attack their users – Spiky Shield, King's Shield, Baneful Bunker, Obstruct, Silk Trap, Burning Bulwark, etc.) and moves, items, and Abilities that punish attackers (often attackers that make contact) (Beak Blast, Static, Rocky Helmet, etc.). I did think through what is and isn't a "retaliatory effect" in a lot of depth, but this isn't the proper place to talk about that, so I won't waste any more time on it. Anyways, Counter, Mirror Coat, Bide, Metal Burst, and Comeuppance do belong in this category as well as the counterattack category, because this category is for moves that don't use the standard damage formula.

Also, I agree that calling this category "moves that deal direct damage" makes little sense. SnorlaxMonster pretty much nailed it, but I'll go into more detail because that's just what I do. "Direct damage", to me, is any damage that is the direct and immediate result of an attack hitting a Pokémon, with the contrast – "indirect damage" – being HP reduction that is not the direct and immediate result of being attacked, including but not limited to the sort of thing that Magic Guard protects against (damage-over-time from status conditions (poison, burn, Leech Seed, Curse, Salt Cure, etc.), weather (sandstorm, hail, etc.), etc., recoil, entry hazard damage, etc. (we can also include HP costs as a sort of "indirect damage", even though it's arguable whether or not it technically counts as "damage" and the HP loss from using such moves isn't prevented by Magic Guard). I think that "fixed damage", "set damage", or "nonstandard damage formula" is better for moves that, well, don't use the standard damage formula. ("Fixed damage" or "set damage" is not entirely appropriate for some of these moves – Psywave immediately comes to mind – but "nonstandard damage formula" is admittedly rather clunky.) --Luigifan (talk) 15:56, 21 May 2024 (UTC)