Talk:Shiny Pokémon/Archive 1

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Revision as of 23:14, 22 March 2009 by Froggy25 (talk | contribs) (Alternate coloration or shiny)
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> can someone explain the ratio thing with the xor an everything? this S**T will turn your mama white 16:18, 14 November 2008 (UTC)squeela this S**T will turn your mama white 16:18, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

>In the TCG, shiny Pokémon are called "shining" Pokémon.

Yes and no. There's "shining" cards, "crystal" cards, and the new ones that don't have a collecive name but are denoted by a star on them (so are commonly called "stars" or "shining stars")- unsigned comment from Blackjack Gabbiani (talkcontribs)

Crystal cards had the same Pokemon coloring as regular ones. "Shining" was the official name and i don't know why people use that crappy "shiny" word... --AtoMan 10:17, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

>If you evolve a shiny pokemon, will it stay shiny? Therequiembellishere 19:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, although sometimes the coloration of it will change. Shiny Charmeleon changes from off-red to a black Charizard, for instance. --Zeta 21:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

It's the same as a red Charmeleon becoming an orange Charizard. Regular becomes regular, shiny becomes shiny. It's another status like the nature. Tom Temprotran 00:05, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry but the Kecleon seen in EP205 is not a shiny pokémon. To my knowledge an alternate colored Kecleon is turquoise not purple. -- Kenji-girl

If it's not a normally-coloured Pokémon it must, logically, be an alternately-coloured Pokémon. It doesn't matter if it doesn't match the precise alternate colouration of the games. - 振霖T 10:45, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Technically, yes; "alternately colored" means, technically, it's simply a different color. "Shiny" is a different story, however. Urutapu 18:27, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Those purple Kecleon are like that because... they're Kecleon, simple as it sounds. Not sure how to word it in the article, but it's not surprising that a chameleon Pokémon can have color variations, either because the interpretation of its traits is to blend with its surroundings (field Kecleon, pinball, anime) or changing its type via Color Change. This is too similar to discussing the Crystal Pokédex entry for Smeargle --Johans 20:54, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Breeding chance in Gen IV

Though I haven't found any definite sources, apparently the odds of breeding a shiny pokemon to have a shiny offspring is 1/8192, as much as finding a regular shiny. Is this true? If so, this renders Shiny dittos practically useless. Razor 07:18, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

As useless as shiny Pokemon are regularly, but yes. It's the same odds as it would be with a regular Pokemon. --Porygon 09:44, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Though really, a shiny Pokémon is no more useless than a regular one, since it's no longer determined on stats. --TTEchidna 17:44, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

the chances are exactly the same - its only in GSC that its a 1/64 of a shiny parents egg being shiny user: adambesthythe

Shiny Pokemon

Would it be worth it if we put in a Section or even a whole new page that showed a normal Pokemon's sprite along with it's Shiny sprite image? Tesh 17:11, 13 July 2007 (UTC) I think it is a good idea because it would be interesting to see.Tesh 10:05, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Include 4th Gen formulas?

I think this article should include the formulas for determining whether or not a pokemon is shiny from its MAP and OT IDs. Any objections? Also, the probability of obtaining a shiny in Gens 3/4 should be corrected to the correct value, 1/8192, not 2/65025. Where did that number come from, anyway? --Reuvens 22:15, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the second number is the chance that a Pokémon will contract Pokérus. :/ Good idea, by the way. -- Umbee 19:52, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I think I've found the source of this ridiculous number, after a little bit of futzing. 256^2 is 65536, and the chance of encountering a shiny is 8/65536. However, 255^2 is 65025, and so it's possible that someone hit a wrong button on their calculator when trying to calculate chances. Unfortunately, I doubt that figuring any of this out is going to change the fact that a whole bunch of people are now misreporting the odds as 2/65025 simply by virtue of it previously being on Bulbapedia. Hopefully it'll die out soon.-- Reuvens 01:12, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The chance is not 8/65536 (1/8192), but 8 in 65536, or 8/(65536-8) (or 1/8191). That makes the chance 0.0001220852154804053% instead of 0.0001220703125%. Not much of a difference, but if such an insanely precise percentage is given, it should be accurate. Also the 2-10 isn't right, 8/65536 is 2-13. I'm correcting this both here and on Personality value --En-Cu-Kou 20:20, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Well if the chance of something is 1 in 10 it mathematically IS a 10% chance (which is 1/10. 1in10= 10%= 0.1= 1/10). You are saying that 1 in 10 is 1/(10-1) which simplifies into 1/9 (just like you said 1/(8192-1) simplifies to 1/8191) ) which is 10.11..% (1/9= 10.11..%= 0.11..). 10%≠10.11..%. So you are also saying that if something is a 1 in 3 chance it is a 1/(3-1) chance (which simplifies to 1/2, 1/2 is 50%--1/3 is 33.33%). If I have a jar with 3 different colored (red,pink,blue) marbles the chance of getting a pink is 1/3 (33.33%), blue is 1/3 (33.33%), and red is 1/3 (33.33%). All three percents add up to 100% and fractions add up 1 (3/3=1). If each was 50% like you were saying it would add up to 150% and 1.5 (3/2=1.5). And I was gonna round those decimal numbers on those pages, I just forgot. --Sivart345 22:47, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Nobody agrees with me? Wow, I just realized that when I wrote the chance of shininess in the pages (before En-Cu-Kou changed them) that I did write 2-10 instead of 2-13 (even though I knew it was the latter one) (guess he was right in changing that). Sivart345 19:02, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
Oh man. Yes, you're right. I'm sorry for messing this up. --En-Cu-Kou 19:59, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
It's all cool. I crossed out the 'incorrect data' in our comments. Sivart345 20:43, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Shiny Egg?

If a shiny pokemon has an egg, will the pokemon that hatches from the egg be shiny? Ryguy

In Generation II, there was a sort of "gene" system where a shiny's offspring would more likely be shiny. However, Generation III got rid of that system. You have the same chances of finding a wild shiny as hatching a shiny, whether the parent was shiny or not.--Loveはドコ? (talk contribs) 22:32, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

It was the legendary Red Snorlax

Look, I know Shiny Snorlax are blue, but the Snorlax in Training Daze was the legendary Red Snorlax. It wasn't a real Snorlax, because it turns out in the end that the Snorlax was Viper, the Drill Sergeant of the Team Rocket Academy in disguise.

Mystery Dungeon Shinies

Rumor has it that you can get shinies in Mystery Dungeon 2... specifically, a shiny Celebi mission or something. Anybody have Time Version to back this up? TinaTheKirliaFile:281MS.gif 21:52, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

  • You can't get shinies in PMD2, however, you do come across a Shiny Celebi in the future world in the main plot of the game. Otherwise, no, you can't get them. --Ricco 15:27, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


Can the revived fossils in Gen IV be shiny if you try enough? Or is it preset when you first give the guy the fossil? File:Ani164MS.gifShiny?! 01:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

If by "try enough" you mean "give him enough fossils". I think it's preset when you give him the fossil, so just save before doing so, give him the fossil, run out, back in, see if it's shiny, soft reset, repeat. TTEchidna 22:29, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Shiny ditto

If you have a ditto that is shiny and it uses transform does the pokéemon it transforms into be shiny?--File:Ani052MS.gifFile:Ani300MS.gifFile:Ani431MS.gifkittenchild and her discoveryFile:Ani264MS.gif 01:24, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes. However, if the Pokémon you trasform into is shiny, and Ditto/Mew is not, it'll be regular. 281Tinaδ282 01:26, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

will it bread shinny Pokemon? Cerberus

No. That's only in II, unfortunatly. I kept breeding my Vaporeon with a shiny Wooper, in hopes that I'd get a shiny Eevee, but 150 eggs later I gave up. Fail! :p Tina δ 16:05, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

No. 486TESH377TALK378FUN379 16:05, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Rats. Cerberus 13:56, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Starly clock

Wasn't the clock Dawn owned in DP001 a shiny starly??? --70pxFile:Spr 3e 132.gifTheryguy512 File:Trozeiani025.gif 01:29, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

So would shiny Noctowl be 光る ヨルノズク? 164sMS.pngShiny?! 20:38, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Hikaru Yorunozuku? I think so. Google's translation officially says "lucent". however. TTEchidna 22:36, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I wouldn't trust Google's translations if my life depended on it. :[--Loveはドコ? (talk contribs) 05:30, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

The Prima guides

As well as using other non-explicit terms from the game such as Effort values, Volume 2 of the Diamond & Pearl Prima guide mentions shiny Pokémon and even mentions the possibility of getting those Pokémon easily via the Poké Radar. I know those guides are authorized by Nintendo because they are sold by PokemonCenter. However, how much of the content is "official"? --Johans 20:54, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Question for G/S/C you need a shiny Ditto to pass on shiny genes, or does it work for any shiny in Gold and Silver? Right now, I'm breeding a male Red Gyarados with a female Dratini, so I can get a shiny one, but halfway through riding on the bike through Route 34 and Goldenrod, I forgot whether shininess is only passed down through a Ditto, or any shiny. Bah! If someone could clear this up for me, it'd be appreciated! Tina δ281 18:49, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm... I think the shiny gene is passed through any shiny Pokémon. A shiny Ditto is widely used for breeding shinies because it can breed with anything. TESHIGIGAS 18:54, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Shinyness IS passed on thru anything in GSC. 1/64 chance if both parents are shiny, and 1/256 chance if one is shiny.


i have a question in gen IV, will every trainer see a shiny pokémon ssoner or later? i had a green and blue tentacool once, but i erased my file am i done for shiny pokémon?

idk but once i saw a shiny Girafarig once . and i also hatched a shiny happiny. from that happiny egg from the hiker and it was shiny, but once it evolved it was regular. has this ever happened before on pokémon game history, or is it my game, or is it a glitch????0.o

No, you aren't. It's just hard to find a shiny Pokémon. Remember that there is a very small chance of finding one. -Metagross72

Math says yes.Out of every 65536 pokemon you see, at least 8 of the m should be shinyDCM
Shinies evolve into shinies. Maybe you just thought it was. Another thing could be due to the fact that Chansey and Blissey's shiny sprites aren't spectacularly different from the regulars. TTEchidna 07:06, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Foreign Aid

"rare colored Pokemon's Egg can be found little easier"

That line is from . It talks about the GTS and the benefits of using Pokemon from another country. Among these is "Rare Colored Pokemon's Egg can be found little easier." I'm surprised it isn't noted here yet... does anyone have any additional information?--PikamasterADV 04:44, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I luv Mathmatics

Someone help me please... I don't understand those complex formulas (sorry). Can someone explain me in english this thing? If I catch a pokemon 25 times (all of them with different personalities) will 1 be shiny or not? Hfc2x 18:52, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

The answer is simple. No. It's a one out of 8192 chance of being shiny, not 1 out of 25. Tina δ281 19:15, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
But what does a pokemon need to be shiny? (that was the correct question :P) how does the personality affect that? Hfc2x 19:46, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
The personality value is a hidden value anyway; it's not the nature. It determines it, like it determines gender, Wurmple's evolution, and so on. But they're all unrelated. Shininess is also determined by the Trainer's ID number, I believe. So there's likely very few possible gender/final form/nature combos for a shiny Wurmple. TTEchidnaFire echy 20:15, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


If a Pokemon is shiny, would it have higher stats than a normal Pokemon, or would they just be just another Pokemon, but a different color? Zapdos 20:58, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Only in GS it would have different ("better") stats. Tina δ281 21:03, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Not really "better", just "specific" stats. It'd have all 10's except in Def. and Sp.Def, I think, while the max is 15. In Gen III and IV, though, it has the same random stats any Pokémon does. TTEchidnaFire echy 22:13, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Alternate Colouration

Shouldn't this link here? Not everyone here uses American English (GT4GTR 02:43, 4 May 2008 (UTC))

yes. done. i was talking about this the other day with another user. any more of these, you tell me, i can take care of it in a jiffy. (and other people too really) -- MAGNEDETH 03:01, 4 May 2008 (UTC)


wait there was a weedle in the ultimate test that was colored green. is that worth metioning? User:ShinyMedicham

Red number colour in Gen IV?

I have been Pokésaving some Pokémon so that they are shiny. Can anyone confirm that if the Pokémon is shiny, the colour of the number in their summary page is red?GJ 01:29, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

My shiny Pokémon have red Pokédex numbers, and they aren't hacked. --Shiny Noctowl 01:36, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Alright, thank you. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't a mistake I made while hacking.GJ 01:40, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Breeding chance in Gen II

I noticed that it says there is as high as a 1/64 chance of breeding a shiny Pokémon in Gen II. I recently hatched 5 eggs in my Silver version. I used a shiny male Gyarados (from the Lake of Rage) and a female Dragonite. When all 5 eggs hatched I had 2 male and 3 female Dratini. The weird thing was that 2 females were shiny. If the chances are really 1/64 than the odds of that happening are about 1/430. With only 5 samples, its not enough info to say whether this was just luck or maybe our hypotheses about breeding need to be looked over. Any thoughts? Stewy5714 15:31, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Lucky. I doubt that means the chances are different.--Starlight the ampharos 17:48, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Shiny legendary pokémon?

Is it possible to get a shiny legendary without cheating or a promotional event? Or are all normally obtainable legendaries a fixed color?

Legendary Pokémon have the same rate of being shiny as any other Pokémon. ~$aturn¥oshi THE VOICES 16:26, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
You just have to try a few times until you battle a shiny legendary... well a little more than a few times LOL xD hfc2X 03:19, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

When is the shininess or nonshininess of a legendary decided? When you battle the legendary or before? i.e. if I battle a legendary, lose, turn off the game, whaever, and reload, would there be a chance of it being an alternate color the second time?

It really is not worth trying. Do you have any idea how long you would potentially have to play? You could play for three weeks without sleep of constantly battling the legendary, turning the game off and all that and still not get that shiny legendary. The chace is 1 in 8192....that doesn't mean you can battle it 8191 times and 8192nd one with DEFINATELY be shiny. Its a 1 in 8192 chance every time. Whenever I come across someone with a shiny legendary, it's common sense to assume they hacked it.Bttsstewart 05:50, 8 December 2008 (UTC)


Why is Kecleon mentioned here? Read the Pokédex description. It's perfectly normal for a Kecleon to be any colour, as long as its zigzag is red. It's normal behaviour for a Kecleon. --Someone Else 00:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Due to body camouflage. The purple one is most certainly not camouflaging. TTEchidna 01:10, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Orange Islands

Is it worth mentioning the Pokémon from the Orange Islands in the Animé? Some of the Pokémon were coloured (and patterned) differently so would that count? --Woodland:M 10:05, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Not really.--☆CoolPikachu! 10:05, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Do you mean the pink ones? If so, then no, they don't count. They weren't shiny. --electAbuzzzz (TALK) 10:08, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Maybe! They might be referring to the Vileplume and Butterfree in Pokéball Peril--KukiTalk 12:05, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes - I mean the Pokémon at professor Ivy's lab. She said they were different due to the climate or something. This article doesn't just talk about shinies so it seems relevant. --Woodland:M 22:51, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Remember guys, who makes the rules... THE GAMES! This article exist because of the shiny Pokémon exist in the games, and THEN they existed in the anime. The orange islands Pokémon are not the same as shiny, so it's not relevant to put it in the article. hfc2X 00:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Since when? We mention the purple Kecleon yet its not in the games. This doesn't mean "shiny only". It means Pokémon that are a color that they aren't usually. --ケンジガール 02:07, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Reliability of sprites?

Just an odd question; are the shiny sprites for each Pokémon completely legitimate? I remember when I was younger playing Crystal version I found a red Caterpie, though Caterpie are said to be gold whilst shiny. My friend also tells me she has a maroon Luvdisc, although I don't know how reliable that information is since I've never seen it. Gabbie 00:05, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

All sprites have been taken from inside the game data (at least the ones which I've uploaded), so I can tell you they're reliable. hfc2X 00:44, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I can hack games and see the sprites in the roms and each Pokémon only gets one normal sprite and back sprite and one shiny sprite and back sprite and none of the sprites you say exist are in any Pokémon games.Darkmaster0 00:57, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Sprites missing

Here are a few facts that surprised me. We don't have shiny sprites for Goldeen or Torchic!

Also, not so surprisingly, we don't have sprites for Shiny Unowns BCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ!?, but this is understandable, as we have hardly any Unown sprites at all.

Do the sprites not exist or were they simply missed? Gligar 19:52, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Not all sprites have been uploaded. It's simply work in progress. You're welcome to help upload missing sprites - I upload some every once in a while... --electAbuzzzz (TALK) 19:54, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Pokemon Stadium

This says they could have "slightly" different colors. xD That made me laugh. The color variations in Stadium and (especially) Stadium 2 could be anywhere from miniscule to OUTRAGEOUS. I swear on Tajiri's grave I had a female Nidoran (actually Spot, from the boy south of Cerulean) who throughout her life looked male on Stadium 2. As a Nidoqueen, this became far worse than ever before, as she became a perfect shade of Nidoking purple with the teal ears, and a lighter creamy pastel teal for her face/torso accents. x3 Spot was awesome, lol. Incidentally, as the same NidoranF could be obtained on any Red or Blue, I tried it with a couple different game paks and never got another with her colors.

Poliwag were another one that was awesome. Typically for me, their skin ranged from teal to bright purple, while their lips could be any color of the rainbow. xD I had two full boxes on Stadium 2 of stored Poliwag just seeing how many different ones I could find. x3 Man, good ol' Stadium, neh? Heart of Thorns 07:29, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Ahha. I haven't played Stadium in a very long time, but damn do i remember the strange colors some would come out with. I might have had a glitchy game or something, i mean, if i remember rightly i had a yellow-y green Charmander at some point *sighs* Ah, good times. ~~Takoto タコト| サソデイ = 愛 09:17, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Ho-Oh Error

"The first Pokémon with its official alternate coloration seen was also the first Generation II Pokémon to be seen, a Ho-Oh seen by Ash in the first episode."

This sentence, from the way I read it, seems to claim that the first shiny Pokémon in the anime to match its alternate coloration in the games is the Ho-Oh in the first episode. Correction: Ho-Oh was covered entirely in a golden aura; We have no way of telling whether this is actually an alternate coloration or not. While one could argue that the colors we do see are not the same as its regular colors in-game, the depicted coloration isn't identical to its "official" shiny form either. It's just a Ho-Oh with a fully golden appearance due to the aura surrounding it. Marlowe 03:42, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

= I agree, There is no evidence that it was 'officially' "alternate colored" (however you Americans spell colour) (GT4GTR 23:11, 25 December 2008 (UTC))

Shiny Issue

There is also a shiny Seaking in the FR/LG Trainer Tower, as shown in another page in Bulbapedia. The problem is, I can't undo the little box around it, and I didn't do anything to add it. Please just remove that, and it'll be good. Thanks,--Mence Master 01:04, 5 January 2009 (UTC) EDIT: Disregard, it undid it by itself. Or another user helped out, but whatever, it's good now.

For the record, that happens when you place a space before text:
like so.

The Dark Fiddler - Nos hablamos? 01:10, 5 January 2009 (UTC)


Now onto that little Toxicroak Debate.

Toxicroak Debate

There was a blue one in Giratina and the Sky Warrior. And no, it wasn't JUST the filter. It was the Toxicroak's coloration. Picture3.png If you look closely, it is blue.

Actually, that really looks like the filter. The Dark Fiddler - Nos hablamos? 15:12, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I don't really think the filter is causing the Toxicroak to look normal-colored. I seriously believe that, behind the filter, lies an honest-to-goodness normal-coloration Toxicroak. Trust me, I don't think putting a filter of that color over a Toxicroak colored like Saturn's would result in that coloration...--Shiningpikablu252 15:15, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Hmm, it does look like SP252 was right...where is this Toxicroak in the whole movie anyway...? ΘρtιmαtumTalk 15:19, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I think that would be the intro. But this doesn't mean that the other Toxicroak are definitely shiny. Jmath 17:45, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Well, there's a Torterra there too, and is THAT blue?--Mence Master 21:50, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Ah, this isn't objective proof, however. If the Toxicroak was in a normal appearance, and not floating around under idle showcasing for points unknown, there could be an argument (but no, not really). Instead, I can point out that the color filter does make some of the pokémon look off-color. That Bibarel just before is practially rosy compared to its normal brown, and Bonsly is a faint gold-green instead of its normal brown (not that I'm saying Toxicroak is affected by this; the difference would have been slighter and not several shades removed). That, and there's no way of saying that neither production teams didn't take liberties: series folk made its normal form with the shiny variation, and movie folk either ignored that or didn't realize and used its normal colors as they should be.
Again, this isn't proof. At all. You're looking for ordinary coloring in the series. Movies don't cut it to make your argument, since the animation and those behind it are vastly diferent as a whole. Luna Tiger * the Arc Toraph 14:11, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
First of all, that picture looks like crap. You can't tell anything from it. I saw the perfect quality version of the movie and it still looks like the coloration of Saturns. Shiningpikablu252, give it up already! It's NOT shiny. It's the anime colors, and learn to accept it. --ケンジガール 04:01, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Alternate coloration or shiny

Which is correct? Because by defenition, Alternate coloration means differently colored. Any Pokémon that's not it's original color should be in a page about DIFFERENTLY COLORED Pokémon. Shiny is the unaverage coloration of a Pokémon in a Pokémon game, if im not mistaken. I think this page should have a different name (Like "Shiny Pokémon") ŚĥîΠŶPî₭₳ĉĥŭ 02:28, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

"Alternate Coloration" Is the offical term used in-game. "Shiny" is the fanmade term. In a wiki that's supposed to be informative, the offical term takes precedence over fanmade ones. PDL 03:46, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
"Shiny" is also an official term :

Froggy25 23:14, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Shiny Metagross or Noctowl

OK, Instead of having an edit war. Talk about it in the discussion. Its easier and better.--Clarky13 22:40, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Noctowl already has a page; I say Metagross. The Dark Fiddler - Is teh Pedia laggin 4 u 2? 22:44, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
Why does it matter if it 'already had a page'??? It's still the most commonly known shiny, and shows the whole body of the Pokémon, not just the face. --Theryguy512 22:45, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
Anyone can see the shiny Noctowl's and page see the pic there. We would like to give chance to others that doesn't have their own page, such as shiny Metagross and Donphan. Theryguy also has a point; we should show the whole body, not just the face. Ҝəυzø8 22:52, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
We do need a better pic.... J-J-M 22:58, 6 March 2009 (UTC)