Talk:Selene (game)

The Protagonist's Name

Since the female player character doesn't have an official name, so why are we referring to her as Moon? I understand that with past Pokémon titles, some of us called the player characters what the names of the games were, but the names eventually changed. And while the male protagonist may be called Sun in the Special Demo, does that mean we should call the female protagonist Moon? (Think about the ΩRαS Demo and Orlando). So (I'm looking for the community's vote), should we keep the name as it is or change it until further notice from the Pokémon Company? MaddoxTheMudkip (talk) 00:48, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

This has already been discussed here. By staff decision the names we use are now Sun and Moon. If you have any thing to add please do. --Raltseye prata med mej 01:11, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

image

Now we confirmed that the official called her Mizuki. So should this page be named to Selene? (And Sun's page named Elio (Yo)) E9310103838 (talk) 01:40, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Seems cool with me. I can see where they chose Mizuki and Yō from - with the way the former name is spelt according to what I've seen both on the main page and elsewhere, the zu is a tsu with a dakuten rather than a su so it's a corrupted tsuki; and Yō is probably derived from taiyō. Honestly, I'm not really sure if I've seen the name Mizuki spelt that way anywhere else given how rarely used that instance of zu is. Azureprism (talk) 02:26, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

It's up to staff to decide. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 02:44, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

For the sake of posterity, here is the original source. I agree with renaming the Moon and Sun game pages to Selene and Elio, too. JB2448 (talk) 05:04, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

And again, for the sake of posterity, here are the videos with timecodes that the Japanese and English canon names are used in: 【公式】『ポケットモンスター サン・ムーン』 最新ゲーム映像（6/15公開）at 1:10 and "Meet New Pokémon and Discover Battle Royals in Pokémon Sun and Pokémon Moon!" at 1:06 JB2448 (talk) 11:27, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

I agree with moving both pages, either to Selene/Elio (my preferred choice, as these are officially-used equivalents) or to Mizuki/Yō (if we want to stay at the safe side). And before anyone says that moving Sun's page is an assumption, then again, so is using "Sun". And since the girl character is officially known as Mizuki, then it pretty much debunks the assumption that boy's name is "Sun". Sun and Mizuki/Selene just don't add up. So, moving them both is the only way. --Maxim (talk) 12:35, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

I also agree in that this should be renamed as either "Selene" or "Mizuki". The latter is 100% confirmed now, so there's no reason to keep it as Moon. Sun should also be moved for consistency's sake, since either "Elio" or "Yo" are more valid assumptions than Sun. --Gabo 2oo (talk) 13:13, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Don't see a reason why not to change it, Selene/Mizuki and Elio/Yo it is. --DanyyelTR (talk) 18:56, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Quite curious as to how that makes their names Selene and Elio for English. I understand the Mizkui situation, but where does Selene, Yo, and Elio come from? (and I'll be quite honest I don't like the names Selene or Elio either). This is mostly because they ARE still promotional names like Orlando, Blair, Anna, etc. which means the only official name is Mizuki. I'll be fine with Yo if it's considered the equivalent to it. English name should stay as Moon for now in my honest opinion. Also for the purpose of trivia and the name itself, Mizuki translates to waterwood (a type of tree that sprouts flowers keeping in line with the flower theme of the characters) and is a common female Japanese name meaning "beautiful moon, which I still think can be translated to just "Moon" for the English readers.TrainerSplash (talk) 23:11, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

You can check the video above that's where Mizuki/Selene and Yo/Elio come from. E9310103838 (talk) 00:38, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

I've stated that those are still promotional names, that video doesn't showcase the Japanese names.We can't use promotional names in such a way because they are almost always inaccurate, the only official use of any of the names is Mizuki used in in ARTFX J figurine. Otherwise they should remain as Sun and Moon any other time. I say we wait until to get official English and Japanese usage outside of trailers (aside from the name Mizuki) and keep them as Sun and Moon. They have a figma figure of her too, and we often get western releases of figmas, so I say wait until we get a translation of the figure or if possible wait and see if the two protags reappear/renamed in Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon. TrainerSplash (talk) 01:03, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

The video have Japanese and English... E9310103838 (talk) 01:19, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

TrainerSplash; as you know, we already have the name Mizuki confirmed. Now, thanks to the trailers, we know for sure that Selene is the English equivalent for Mizuki. As for the male protagonist, Yo is the male equivalent for Mizuki, and Elio is the English equivalent for Yo. That's where all the four names come from. If you insist in only official usage, then we still have to move this to Mizuki, and Selene is still as valid as Moon because both haven't been confirmed at all in English media. Perhaps we could move this to Mizuki, then wait for the figma figure and see which name they use for the English release, if they do one. --Gabo 2oo (talk) 00:00, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

While Mizuki may be her official name in Japanese, in English, Selene is only used officially once. As per the MOS, an official English name takes precedence over a Japanese name. Since Sun/Moon were used extensively during the pre-release period, they currently take precedence as the most commonly used English names for the characters in official material. There's no point in moving this now if an English release of the figure or USUM change things up. --Abcboy (talk) 00:52, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

That's a pretty bad justification. Why update the legendary Pokemon article right now if USUM may change that? Why change the anime article if future episodes may change that? We should care about what's happening right now, and currently Mizuki Is the official name of the character in Japanese, with absolutely no reason to doubt Selene is the official English name. Keeping the article as Sun / Moon would be deceiving visitors when we all know those names are not real. Also, this is about the SM main characters, not the USUM main characters, which as far as we know could even be two totally different characters. Josephvb10 (talk) 20:16, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Just because X translates to Y, that does not mean that if X is official, so must Y be. The English side can do whatever it wants, we will NOT presume for them. We can wait. Tiddlywinks (talk) 20:58, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Sun/Moon are officially used, including in that same video in which Elio/Selene is used only once. Sun/Moon are not fake or misleading names. --Abcboy (talk) 22:58, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Is this STILL being argued over?! I thought we settled this dispute a long time ago! Toolen (talk) 00:19, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Now we confirm Selene = Mizuki. http://www.goodsmile.info/en/product/6782/figma+Selene.html E9310103838 (talk) 12:07, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Welcome to Bulbapedia. Somehow, even after the Selene Figma was announced yesterday and what is blatantly stated by the games' data and promotional material, it's probably going to take further proof that the male protagonist's equivalent names to Mizuki and Selene before the staff approve the change despite those factors and general consensus literally everywhere else, and I have no clue what the point of going to such extreme forms of mistake avoidance is. Azureprism (talk) 15:41, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Regardless of the Figma figure, Selene and Elio are names related to these characters' appearances in Sun & Moon. Now that they have new prerelease names for USUM, Ailey and Ray should be the names we move them to if at all, since these are the most recent names. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 15:58, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

But they are considered as the same roles. If they use different names, are they different roles? E9310103838 (talk) 16:03, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 16:05, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

That's like saying that Brendan and May's articles should be renamed to Orlando and Anna just because some of ORAS's promotional materials and the demo called them that. If you're going to go that route, see if all instances of Elio and Selene hidden in SM's coding are changed to Ailey and Ray in USUM, and if they aren't just rename their articles to Elio and Selene like what should have been done following the Figma release, or even back when that first figure was released nearly three months ago. Azureprism (talk) 19:36, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Orlando/Anna is a terrible argument, the characters were still referred to as Brendan/May within ORAS, that easily overrides the other candidates. Tiddlywinks (talk) 19:46, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

And were there any instances of them being called Brendan and May in ORAS prior to their release? Azureprism (talk) 20:07, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

They were known as Brendan and May, only as a rival in ORAS prior to their release, like what they do with Calem and Serena. (Although not in the official website directly pointed out to their name but on the screenshot shows.) E9310103838 (talk) 00:21, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Azureprism, care to point out where Elio/Selene are used in game data and coding? Regardless, USUM comes out in the less than a month. It doesn't hurt to wait. --超龍_「Chao」 00:54, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

You could easily argue that only the rival characters in ORAS were Brendan/May, where as the default name for the protagonist is Orlanda/Anna. But I don't see the point of arguing this, the official release by Goodsmile and Nintendo refer to this character as Selene. Anything else being used is no different from other promotional material that's used other names for various characters. If the USUM version turns out to be different, then it can be changed, but at the very least Selene is more official than Moon and everything so far has stated that this is still the same story and characters from the original Sun & Moon.Five (talk) 11:04, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

i think this should be treated like the Silver(game) and Leaf(game) pages where under name origin the page informs the reader that the names are fan designated.--Aaron's Lucario (talk) 18:47, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Sun/Moon are not at all names created by fans. They were very much used officially, as has already been noted above. And as the trivia at the bottom of these pages clearly state. Tiddlywinks (talk) 19:03, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

i see nothing saying Sun/Moon are official only that they were "officially" designated these names by bulbapedia staff--Aaron's Lucario (talk) 19:20, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

i went ahead and made the changes myself if anyone would like to elaborate or make what I wrote more pristine go right ahead but if anyone deletes it I want to see a link to an official source where GF called her Moon. (preferably since the game's release because this site talks about "Scrapped ideas" all the time and i see no difference here) all this talk about anyone can edit and then scaring people out of their wits about writing something that disagrees with the moderators (even if its entirely legitimate) I'm sick of it.--Aaron's Lucario (talk) 19:20, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

To quote what abcboy said above: "Since Sun/Moon were used extensively during the pre-release period, they currently take precedence as the most commonly used English names for the characters in official material." Yes, it's pre-release material, but it's official enough.--ForceFire 04:28, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

This is still being debated, it seems. We have multiple official sources for both Selene and Mizuki (such as the official Singaporean [1] and Indian [2] Pokémon sites) and the official Good Smile product page [3] for the figma. The argument used for pre-release media can also apply to the names Elio and Selene, and the fact that Selene has prevailed post-release would, by that logic, make it more official. If I am misunderstanding something, please let me know.--JB2448 (talk) 20:44, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Move and split

May I please rename the page and split it if that's okay? SaturnMario, his talk and his contributions 23:04, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Why? It seems like "Moon" and "Ailey" are still going to be the same character. GrammarFreak01 (talk) 04:34, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Since Selene did as a character at the official indeed... I think it is necessary to renamed or splited the page (and Elio, too). E9310103838 (talk) 23:51, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

Since Silvally line finally joined the legendary Pokémon, should this page also consider renaming? E9310103838 (talk) 06:14, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Those topics have no relation. Tiddlywinks (talk) 06:16, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

What I mean is that since Silvally line added to the legendary Pokémon page because of official statements, why does the official indeed say that the default name of the character, this page has not been renamed? E9310103838 (talk) 06:37, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Again, no relation. Just because they've officially confirmed that Type: Null and Silvally are legendary, does 'not mean they've officially confirmed Moon's (and to an extent, Sun's) names.--ForceFire 06:46, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

They are indeed confirmed that the above discussion has list of sources and even has the English sources. E9310103838 (talk) 06:51, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

See my discussion below and here for why the articles should not be renamed from Moon (and Sun). In summary, a PC has no official name unless he/she has an NPC role (either in the same games or later). SilSinn (Pokémon Sun Trainer ID: 768426) (talk) 00:17, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Um, what?

So what are we mostly agreeing on? Selene/Elio or Ailey/Ray? And where did Ailey/Ray come from? - unsigned comment from Mira Zannah (talk • contribs)

Nobody seems to be agreeing on anything, and this isn't the kind of thing that gets decided by consensus anyway; page moves are decided exclusively by staff. Ailey/Ray are the names used in pre-release media for USUM (screenshots, promotional videos, etc). Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 16:55, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Now we have two Figma/Figure products called Mizuki (=Selene) and have been pre-sale. E9310103838 (talk) 10:41, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Are the data miners done with USUM yet? Because it would probably be in there somewhere, right? --Mira Zannah 13:22, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Mizuki

On top of multiple pieces of merchandise using the name, we now have the Nintendo Dream magazine using it *and* with her USUM design to boot. Surely this is now as close to canon as we're going to get.Five (talk) 18:15, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

It is not likely we will use a Japanese name for the page's title. Tiddlywinks (talk) 20:39, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

At least this should be the "suggested moved" to Selene currently. E9310103838 (talk) 14:41, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Yeah I think so. Mira Zannah 18:02, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Can't we at least change the Japanese name section at the top of the page to ミヅキ Mizuki? How is that not considered canon? I understand why we aren't using Selene right now, but unlike Selene, Mizuki is being used in Japanese merchandise alongside the other Pokégirls. --DanyyelTR (talk) 15:06, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Rename

It's pretty much official her name is Ailey. Why didn't we already renamed this article? If so, can I do it? Same with Sun, who is actually named Ray. - unsigned comment from Trainer Ray (talk • contribs)

Do we have any proof besides the pre-release names? There is quite a bit of evidence for Selene/Elio (look earlier on the talk page), but is there anything else for Ailey/Ray? --Mira Zannah (Feel free to yell at me) 19:33, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Neither the ♂ male nor the ♀ female character has an official name per se, because neither of them has an NPC role in the games. The only reason Ethan, Lyra, Brendan, May, Lucas, Dawn, Hilbert, Hilda, Nate, Rosa, Calem, and Serena have such official names is because of their NPC roles when you choose their opposite gender as PC in their respective games; Red and Blue have such official names because of their NPC roles in Gold/Silver/Crystal/etc. So no, let's not rename this article based merely on merchandising practices going on - their provisional fan-assigned names are just OK in the meantime, so long as they are labeled as such (as is being done with Leaf and Silver). I already discussed this reason here. SilSinn (Pokémon Sun Trainer ID: 768426) (talk) 23:54, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

I'd argue the amount of merchandise calling her Selene makes it pretty official. If it were one thing, you could maybe assume they were just using whatever they thought sounds good, but the fact we have Goodsmile, Kotobukiya and others calling her Selene makes it pretty evident that this is what Nintendo/TPCi is calling her. Plus these same companies are also using the canon names for other trainer characters, such as Hilda, Rosa, etc, which were previously only confirmed by ingame data.Five (talk) 17:57, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Of course, that in-game data was the NPC data for the otherwise-PC-only characters. But the Sun/Moon and Ultra Sun/Ultra Moon PC's don't seem to have NPC data associated with them (not even unused/dummied-out data other than the Kai/Lana names which cannot be taken as official PC names so as to avoid confusion with trial captain Lana), unless the data miners are still trying to figure it out. SilSinn (Pokémon Sun Trainer ID: 768426) (talk) 05:15, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

11 years old.

She is 11 years old. Why is it listed as 11-14? - unsigned comment from Trainer Ray (talk • contribs)

More to the point, why do you think she is 11 and not older? Tiddlywinks (talk) 16:36, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

The player character is pretty obviously the same age as Hau, who is 11 years old. Also, "around 11 years old" doesn't go as far as 14.Trainer Ray (talk) 16:38, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

"Obvious" is not any sort of evidence, that's assuming. Where do you get "around 11 years old" from? Tiddlywinks (talk) 16:40, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Wicke: "You and Hau are both trial-goers, aren't you? Are you hoping to become champions? I suppose... You must be around 11, then?" Hau is definitely 11 years old as that's also the age for beginning the island challenge, which gives me the impression Ailey is also 11 years old as they begin the island challenge together. - unsigned comment from Trainer Ray (talk • contribs)

The thing is, the player comes from outside Alola. Native Alolans might start the trial as soon as they're able to, at 11, but outside Alola you could turn 11, then turn 12, and if you come to Alola, people could be like "You should totally do trials!"

And the thing about "around 11" is, they've plainly not said the player is 11 and no older. It's not at all infeasible that the player could be 12. The real problem is, we can't really place an upper limit no how old the player might be just from that statement. We may think that "14" or "15" or whatever is too old to be "around" 11, but that's just personal opinion; if official material later claims they're 14, it's not explicitly contradicting anything. Tiddlywinks (talk) 17:02, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

It still gives misleading information, though. Even if it's not confirmed that they're only 11, there is nothing implying the 14-15 age range. If you want to account for the ambiguity, list it as "around 11", exactly as stated in the game. Don't imply information that doesn't exist. Eskay64 (talk) 15:55, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

My previous comments may have misled you. I was not saying that 14 or 15 looked like a reasonable upper limit. 14 is an officially supported upper limit. (To be frank, I couldn't say where it comes from off the top of my head, but as a rule we keep tabs on this sort of thing. I'm confident it's in the page history at least.) That's the exact opposite of misleading, so please leave it on the page. Tiddlywinks (talk) 16:57, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Selene is her name, end of story.

https://www.pokemoncenter.com/figures---pins/figures/figma/figma-selene-figure-703-03094 - The official Pokemon Center website. --Master Lucario (talk) 20:02, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Mizuki is also used in the same context (Japanese Pokémon Center Online store) - https://www.pokemoncenter-online.com/?main_page=product_list&keyword=オンライン限定ぬいぐるみ_pokemon_time. I 100% agree.--JB2448 (talk) 12:21, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Given a couple of different names are used in merchandise and pre-release material; it is far safer to stick with Moon as the official name as none of the other names get more than a couple of mention in said material. Frozen Fennec 12:57, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

In this case, what would be the "straw that breaks the camel's back" for this name change? Both Selene and ミヅキ have been used in numerous official contexts, more than any other name (including Moon).--JB2448 (talk) 14:07, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Probably an in-game appearance or eventually after multiple years of constant use of the names Selene/Mizuki by Pokémon themselves. --DanyyelTR (talk) 10:39, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

It is worth noting that Selene is used on the packaging, not just the introduction on the webpage. E9310103838 (talk) 15:27, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

Seeing as the manga also uses the name Moon, it is safer to stick with that name. The article already makes mention that pre-release material gave her various names but outside of the merchandise from pre-release; has never been mentioned as being canon names. Frozen Fennec 15:38, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

Pokémon Adventures always uses names based off of game versions, with the sole exception of the Black 2 • White 2 Chapter in English. That has no bearing on the game character whatsoever.--JB2448 (talk) 00:22, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Seriously? People here are still pussyfooting about the canonicity of Selene name after more than a year of this mess? I can't remember what the deal was with the internal names anymore, but Selene/Mizuki's been used in SM's promotional material and this Figma release. Leaf's page no longer has the name discussion header after years of that being a common fanon name and I don't know if that was removed before or after that figure of her with that name was announced earlier today. Azureprism (talk) 03:35, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

Literally why

Earlier today, a Kotobukiya figure was announced for Leaf (https://twitter.com/kotobukiyas/status/1048377301530947584), a character who has been without a canon name since her debut in 2004. As this is officially licensed merchandise approved by TPC (merchandise which the subject of this article also possesses), her article was almost immediately updated with no resistance to remove all references of her name only being corroborated by fanon with the exception of a line acknowledging that was formerly the case. Multiple times since the release of Sun & Moon, the case has been argued in this discussion page that the only "definitive" way to determine a canon name is if the protagonist appears as an NPC, and that official merchandise is invalid or considered less than convenient ("It's easier to just call her Moon because of her manga counterpart"). If this is the case, where were the torches for Leaf, who never appears as an NPC and whose name contradicts her manga counterpart's, tonight? What I'm saying is, the absurd stubbornness and delay in updating this article, as well as the male protagonist's, has gotten out of hand. The subject of this article has a Kotobukiya figure, she has a figma, both distributed in English and Japanese. The name used is Selene/Mizuki. If they wanted her to be "Moon" or any of the other names argued on this page, they would have referred to her as such, as they had no problem inaugurating Leaf as canon. Is it so hard to ask for consistency? --ThePacisBack (talk) 06:17, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

Those cases are not the same. Leaf was not official. Both Moon and Selene were (before there were any figures).

Also: do not confuse regular users' arguments for staff's. Tiddlywinks (talk) 12:42, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

Brendan is also known as Orlando in the pre-release media. E9310103838 (talk) 15:57, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

I'm just going to list out all of the official sources from The Pokémon Company that use Elio/ヨウ and Selene/ミヅキ:

https://www.pokemoncenter.com/figures---pins/figures/figma/figma-selene-figure-703-03094

https://www.pokemoncenter-online.com/?main_page=product_list&keyword=オンライン限定ぬいぐるみ_pokemon_time

https://youtu.be/OF_OrULIEWA?t=71

https://youtu.be/9Ojd6FzTaEM?t=67

https://sg.portal-pokemon.com/goods/plush-toys/171124162050_figma_selene_the_alola_pokemon_trainer_selene_is_joining_the_figma_series.html

http://in.portal-pokemon.com/goods/plush-toys/171124162050_figma_selene_the_alola_pokemon_trainer_selene_is_joining_the_figma_series.html

Again, these are just from The Pokémon Company directly. If we expand that to sources such as Good Smile and Kotobukiya, the list only gets bigger.

If Kotobukiya is enough for Leaf (1), why isn't it enough for Selene (2), let alone all of the official pages and video uploads from The Pokémon Company directly? JB2448 (talk) 15:37, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

I'll explain it a bit differently one more time since you apparently didn't get it from my previous response...

The cases with Leaf and Selene are NOT rightly comparable. Tiddlywinks (talk) 11:41, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

They are comparable, what do you mean? Pokémon, the >>>OFFICIAL<<< company and site calls it Selene and Mizuki depending on region. There shouldn't even be an argument. JB2448 provided non-debatable points. They all come from Pokemon Company directly. They're marketing all the toys related to her so far as Selene or Mizuki depending on the region they're selling it in, just like how it is with May or Haruka. Don't quite understand how hard that is to understand to just not rename the page to Selene when there's two official figures out there, one where you can buy right now from their Pokemon Center shopping page that clearly reads figma Selene Figure. Oneplusoneis2 (talk) 15:38, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Tiddlywinks, come on. TPC stopped using Moon as a name for Selene outside of Adventures (and maybe USUM's trailers? Honestly I can't remember but it's not like they weren't using Ailey more often) a long time ago. They have been using Selene as her name for all of the merchandise that calls her by name, and they probably will keep calling her that instead of Ailey and definitely not Moon if she ever gets solo merch in her USUM outfit. Leaf may have not been an official name and FRLG's trailers might have not shown any names for any of the players in connections showcased in them, but that name is now with that figure's announcement. Selene was called several names during SM's prerelease period, but now they've completely dropped Moon and kept to calling her Selene for her centric merch. It's so far from being difficult to comprehend. Azureprism (talk) 16:32, 8 October 2018 (UTC)