Difference between revisions of "User talk:Force Fire"

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::So only important when it is a main character?[[User:Pikablu|Pikablu]] ([[User talk:Pikablu|talk]]) 12:17, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
 
::So only important when it is a main character?[[User:Pikablu|Pikablu]] ([[User talk:Pikablu|talk]]) 12:17, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
 
:::Yes. They were at one point main characters, that makes them important enough.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#44BAE5">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#85D2EE">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#DA7D99">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#E7ABBD">ire</span>]] 12:47, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
 
:::Yes. They were at one point main characters, that makes them important enough.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#44BAE5">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#85D2EE">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#DA7D99">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#E7ABBD">ire</span>]] 12:47, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
 +
:::And so we're clear, because I know what you're trying to do, the focus here is former main characters not Chloe or other supporting characters. Different rules for different characters.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#44BAE5">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#85D2EE">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#DA7D99">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#E7ABBD">ire</span>]] 12:48, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Revision as of 12:48, 24 May 2022

006 WELCOME TO MY TALK PAGE 006
ARCHIVES
Archive One Archive Two Archive Three
Archive Four Archive Five Archive Six
Archive Seven Archive Eight Archive Nine
Archive Ten Archive Eleven Archive Twelve

Suggestions

Hi! Where could I submit suggestions for the editorial board to consider? I've just finished completing the learnsets for every move in LA and with that I'd like to drastically overhaul/simplify how the move learnset templates look. It'd be a lot of work, but there is plenty of time until the next games. I already discussed the matter with User:SnorlaxMonster who broadly supported it, so I'd like to start the official process of having my suggestions evaluated/fine-tuned/accepted. You can find everything you need to know in my sandbox.

Another suggestion would be using galleries when we list the confirmed Pokémon an artist has designed. This seems pretty straight-forward to me, I hope I don't need to list reasons as to why. It would really help people understand and appreciate the artists more.

Oneofthosedf (talk) 20:50, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Could I at least get an answer? Or could you redirect me to a person who can help me with the process?
Oneofthosedf (talk) (contribs) 15:52, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
Apologies for the late response. I'll briefly go over your points. Point 1 and 4 seem to go hand in hand, I wouldn't mind using the sugimori artwork in favor of the menusprites for single image templates. Using them for a list makes the template look larger than it needs to be, so menusprites (being smaller) works better imo. As for the types, the older ones are preferred because the text is larger than those on the newer symbols. The new symbol may look nicer but it doesn't help those unaware of what those smbol represents.
For points 2 and 3, Maahirmomtaz is in the wrong here. I have no idea why they are making those edits and someone should ask them why on their talk page. If they doesn't respond, then staff can make them respond. Using the sup template for game specific moves is indeed how we do things. Though I do agree that it has recently gotten ridiculous, and your templates are indeed a better way of showing them. I don't think having both games and generations in one header would be confusing, as long as the reader understands the purpose of such layout.
For point 5, I'm 50/50 on it. I think they should be separated for being completely different learning methods, but I can understand merging them to save space.
As for the galleries, eh. We don't do that for voice actor articles, so I don't think it's worth doing it for the designer articles. Just bloats the article up, imo.--ForceFire 07:29, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
Thank you for the response. I hope I didn't come off as arrogant, but I'm just used to sending a reminder to offices IRL. There was no frustration behind it.
The two points that I care about most are #3 and #5, the ones that would require the most work and the ones that are most needed. I'll address all of them one by one briefly.
1: I just think the different line heights look pretty jarring. Consistency is always the best, and considering we can fix all the templates that use menusprites this easily, it should be done. I do dislike that all of them need to be 68x68, but that's life. Nothing we can do about that (unless of course we move away from pixel art, which gives us endless sclability options).
2&3: I think they noticed the situation getting ridiculous as well. If my suggestions are accepted, we would only need to use the superscripts for the few forms and new Pokémon that were introduced in Pt, B2W2, ORAS and USUM. I trust the reader will understand it. But we can always leave a note in the footer explaining that Gen VII and Gen VIII needed to be broken up.
4: I think the era of menusprites is over. We'll inevitably get confirmation in a few months when the SV trailers start to showcase some gameplay. But neither BDSP nor LA uses them anymore. I think it's done. Consistency is always the best move, and a core quality of Bulbapedia. I love the spritework personally, but they don't look as good on the Switch as they do on Bulbapedia. We can't keep using menusprites and the LA headshots with whatever SV will introduce, then a possible fourth artstyle by the end of 2023. I understand the issue with the Sugimori artworks taking up too much place, but technically they wouldn't. There would be just less white spaces. I pray for a game where every Pokémon is available again (mainly for this reason), but until then the Sugimori artworks are the only thing every Pokémon has (Eiscue forms and Galarian Zen Darmanitan don't need to be incldued, thankfully). I also don't think they look bad, I can try making a longer list with 100+ Pokémon if that's something you think would be more convincing.
4: As for the type bars, I'm not sure that I understand your complaint. I don't see why we'd need to use the ones from 2006. AFAIK the Fairy type bars are fan-made. My sandbox displays the version with the type names. They are perfectly legible, and the symbols aren't too small either. The colors broadly fit the colors Bulbapedia uses as well. We should move away from pixel art, because monitors with higher resolutions don't accommodate them too well. I need to zoom out a whole lot for them to look crisp. Ironically the type bars I am using are now obsolete as well, BDSP, LA and SV use a new version, so I shall implement those (though I'd need permission to remove the dead space around them).
5: This is partly about future-proofing, partly about reducing bloat, and partly about displaying information as neatly as possible. I am certain we will get new learning/tutoring methods later down the line, and we don't need another section for Giga Drain with 300+ entries that contains the same information. It also addressed the issue with moves that keep going for TMs to tutors to TRs, then back to tutors, etc. I don't think it would be confusing at all.
Galleries: I wouldn't want them to be used on voice actor pages either, utterly useless IMO. I think there is a stronger argument for displaying artworks on the pages of the designers. A list just feels lifeless, while a gallery feels respectful to the artists, and helps users understand their design philosophy.
I want to get as much input from experienced users as possible. I really want these changes to accommodate everyone, since I think this is the way going forward and something no other big sites have. How should I go about gaining supporters for this? I refrained from writing individual community members as I feel that constitutes as spam. Oneofthosedf (talk) (contribs) 12:57, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
Your posts doesn't seem arrogant or confrontational at all. I can understand wanting to bump a discussion when an admin doesn't respond to it. If you want to reach out to more users but not spam multiple talk pages, you can always use the Editor's hub talk page. Though going to a staff member works just as well, as they will most likely relay the message onto the other staff members in the staff discord.
1: Nothing we can do if the images are of varying sizes. We can't expand the smallest menusprite to be the same size as the largest menusprite.
2/3: Seems we are in agreement on this. I don't mind separate columns within a generation for separate games.
4: I was actually under the impression that the artwork would make the other cells have more whitespace than needed as opposed to menusprites, but checking now, doesn't seem to be the case. Probably is more ideal looking comparing the two again.
4: As for the types, (if I remember correctly) that was what was mentioned as the reason for using the older type images in a staff chat. The text would appear too small in the size we would have them, as opposed to the older images where the text were essentially the image. It's probably fine for mobile, but not so much for desktop.
5: Yeah, not entirely against reducing repeated information, so I won't be bother if we do decide to merge them together.
Galleries: That's understandable. I think having the images be smaller would change my mind, just having them how it is on your page makes it seem cluttered.
And just a couple points about your templates: I think leaving the tutor/tm/tr row white works best to avoid color clashes (using EP for IoA may or may not be confused with CT, unless there's not much of a difference in movesets), and leaving out games where the move isn't coded in makes sense (though I think a note in the footnote might be best to avoid confused users asking questions).--ForceFire 14:53, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
1: I was thinking about what we have on the Pokémon Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl page. The version-exclusive list already uses the Moveevtrytm template, so we'd only need to change the headers (I think). The images are not altered, only centered. I am not exactly sure which part of the code makes them appear this way, but you can't deny that it looks more cohesive.
4: Here is an image (https://imgur.com/n0czury) I want you to look at. I use 2560x1440 monitors and at default zoom, everything on Bulbapedia appears to me as it does in the bottom row. Amazing for artworks. So much detail. Terrible for spritework, unfortunately. In order to enjoy them, I need to use 80% zoom (the standard for smaller resolutions), which makes everything tiny. You can also compare the readability of the type bars on the image. Exact same font height. I think one can read both just fine. By completely getting rid of spritework, we now have a zoom-proof wiki. People who are hard of seeing can now freely zoom in without the fear of blurry pixelart. So my proposal actually accommodates readability, if you think about it. It also shows that we don't need to stick with 68px, we can go smaller, if we want to further reduce scrolling. Or we can use 70px on move pages, but go with 50px for the headers on Pokémon pages. Endless possibilities. It would need some manual work, since the naming conventions for menusprites and Sugimori artwork are different, but that's part of future-proofing.
Galleries: Okay, I'll make some variations. I just used the default Bulbapedia gallery, I'm fine with scaling down.
IoA is unfortunately completely unreadable on a white background, and since it's neither a game, neither a separate DLC, using the EP superscript is more accurate. We don't list the tutor locations on the move pages (not in this case), so it doesn't matter whether it's obvious that the tutors are available on the IoA or the CT. Anyone who has access to one of them, automatically can access the other. Oneofthosedf (talk) (contribs) 15:36, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
1:The way it's done on the bdsp article is indeed good, that's because the moveentry template has the image align-centered and at a height of 70px. I should note that I'm under the impression that the problem here is the size discrepancy between menusprites, hence "Nothing we can do if the images are of varying sizes." The LA menusprites, on the other hand, would lean me towards using sugimori art due to them being way different than the usual menusprites.
4:Seems you're using a slightly bigger screen that me. But still, for me at least, menusprites or sugimori artwork still look completely fine regardless of 80% or 100% scale. But I am leaning towards sugimori art. As for type images, I still stand by using the older ones. Same as the menusprite vs artwork, I personally can see both just fine regardless of scale, but the text of the newer images being slightly squished to make way for the symbol wuld make it slightly harder to read.
Galleries: They look fine now. TRG didn't really need to add examples of other designers, just one example is fine. If you are fine with the approval of one admin, you can go ahead and add the galleries.
Fair enough, I don't have much else to say about the templates design wise, so they're fine by me.--ForceFire 06:45, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
Thanks, my next post will be on the Editor's Hub. I am 100% on the side of using Sugimori, so I'm happy with your replies. My original idea for the type bars was just to use the highlighted texts we use everywhere else on Bulbapedia. I don't know if their implementation is feasible, but I'll ask around and if it is, I'll throw it in the suggestion. I'm thinking of something like this (visual edit, not coded): https://imgur.com/msd1Gzi. I'll go ahead and add the galleries, and I'm thankful for TRG, because they did save me a lot of work. Oneofthosedf (talk) (contribs) 14:28, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Designers

I had a thought that it would be nicer to find all designers by giving them navigation infobox. I made it here, can I add it? [1]--Rocket Grunt 16:30, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Sure. Surprised we don't already have a category for them as well, though both a nav box and category would probably be redundant.--ForceFire 11:47, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
Thanks.--Rocket Grunt 12:52, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Reverting literally all of my edits

ForceFire, why are you reverting literally all of my edits you notice? You seem to be biased against me like I'm an undercover Soviet (which I am NOT!). Can you please explain this? Mario60866 (talk) 18:33, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

I monitor the recent changes regularly and check edits that catch my attention, especially if it's a user that has made problematic edits in the past. You are not the first user that I have monitored the edits of.--ForceFire 19:20, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

But why are you calling literally all my edits problematic? Mario60866 (talk) 19:21, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Because you've either A)added very unnotable trivia B) constantly reverted edits, i.e. edit war or C) Have very extreme views on things that we can't control. That's why your edits are "problematic" and are worth monitoring.--ForceFire 19:30, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Firstly, I'll have you know that I have religious beliefs against sexuality and that's why I've tried to sex-proof Bulbapedia by removing links like that.

Second, my edit on the form difference page was a legitimate edit because there are Pokemon that change HP stay based on their formes, such as Zygarde. It says on there "other than HP" which is genuinely incorrect.

Third, you are right that I should not be adding personal opinions like my similarities to May or that Giratina is my favorite Pokemon, but some people do legitimately mistake Flygon for a Pseudo-legendary, for example. I added that piece of information specifically because I've had people say to me that Flygon among a few others is a Pseudo-legendary, and I even specified why in the trivia it was not.

At this point I think you are completely biased against me, whether it's because of stupid mistakes I did make or simply because you disagree with me, but that is no reason to treat me this way. I've been treated this way by too many people in my life and I'm tired of it. I've already mentioned this to a member of the editorial board in fact. Mario60866 (talk) 22:11, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

The fact that most of your edits were reverted by me is just a consequence of me monitoring the recent changes and checking edits of users that have made problematic edits in the past. You are not the first, nor are you the only, nor will you be the last user whose edits I monitor from the recent changes.--ForceFire 07:29, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Pages for analysis

Hello, I'm sending this message to ask about the possibility that these pages here meet requirements to go to mainspace. Boldore's page, I think, will fulfill the requirements from Friday's episode. I'm also sending a link with a shortcut to some Trainer templates for some characters, I know some of them don't meet the requirements, but probably one or two might work.

The other two are from events that happened and don't have pages, I tried to follow the same pattern as other events in the anime. I'm sending mainly because I have a lot of pages to be mounted in my userspace, and I want to try to reduce that amount.

There are some from other users, i hope I don't have a problem with that, which I also wanted to know if it was possible to be analyzed.

These are pages that I helped in some sections and that I wanted to work on more, but as they are pages of other users, I don't know if something can be done without their consent. And some of them aren't often here, so there's little point in trying to get in touch.

I thank you in advance.--Hikaru Wazana (talk) 03:25, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Mewtwo's role in the game is not as notable or important to the plot of its game as Arceus is to Legends. Not every Pokemon is a sliver of importance in a game is notable for its own article. And adding its appearance in other media doesn't make it notable.
Goh's Boldore would be notable, regardless of its role in the next episodes, as it had an important role in a previous episode.
I think the Ash article is fine.
Both Flower Arrangement and Sinnoh Fair would need a bit of cleanup, some external link template at the bottom, and they're good.
For the Anime character Pokemon tmeplates, we only makes them when one of their Pokemon has an article and if they have more than one Pokemon. So only Cynthia, Korrina, Brandon, Clair, Volkner, and Barry are fine. The Adventures template seems fine, but best to ask someone who edits to manga section for their opinion.
All three are fine.
As for these two. These are not notable. Quality over Quantity. They are too small to be articles. We want fully fleshed articles, not articles that are a couple of paragraphs surrounded by colorful templates.--ForceFire 05:57, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
Can I be transferring these pages that you approved to the mainspace? I asked BigDocFan for help, not to exceed my daily personal edit limit. And I'll be working on the details you mentioned that need to be done in the others.--Hikaru Wazana (talk) 14:25, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
You can move the pages/templates that I gave approved.--ForceFire 15:32, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
None of Volkner's Pokémon have a page. Why is his template approved? Rahl (talk) 15:36, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
Oh, could've sworn one of his Pokemon had an article, then yeah, that isn't notable.--ForceFire 15:38, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
Boldore is unable to be moved, can you solve this?I was going to wait until Friday, but since we're doing it.--Hikaru Wazana (talk) 15:45, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
Boldore will be moved once the episode has aired as it technically still hasn't appeared in three episodes.--ForceFire 15:44, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
I think whoever moved the Volkner template got confused. Anyway, I think it can be reversed, no?

Boldore will be moved once the episode has aired as it technically still hasn't appeared in three episodes.

OK everything is fine. Thanks for the feedback.--Hikaru Wazana (talk) 15:47, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Does the template requiring only one Pokémon apply only to the anime? Because this template User:Animaltamer7/Whitley's Pokémon otherwise qualifies. Rahl (talk) 16:05, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

I think this one is the same as the Adventures template, Rahl. It has to be discussed with someone who takes care of the manga part of the site.
Anyway, I just wanted to say thank you, Force Fire and everyone. I saw that it took some extra work to make all the changes. Next time I'll try not to accumulate so as not to generate extra work for the whole team. --Hikaru Wazana (talk) 21:30, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
The rule should apply to both manga and anime character's Pokemon. That one should be fine, as she has more than one Pokemon.--ForceFire 06:06, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
Great. Thank you. Rahl (talk) 12:05, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
I'm guessing none of Volkner's Pokemon are considered worthy enough for their own page, Electivire and Luxray seem worthy but haven't done much besides battling.--BigDocFan (talk) 19:07, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
Electivire's role is bigger in the manga than in the anime, in Adventures, Volkner uses it to face Giratina, train Platinum and among other things. I thought about making a page of it from this version, but apparently in the manga characters pages, the notability rule is different. --Hikaru Wazana (talk) 19:30, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
See here for Manga notability requirements. I'm not knowledgeable on the manga, so best ask someone that is for their opinion.--ForceFire 12:01, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Goh's Boldore

Now that JN102, can Boldore be mainspaced, if so could you do it because of the redirect link. Also, Boldore was shown to withstand Sheer Cold so can we take this as it having the ability Sturdy?--BigDocFan (talk) 11:31, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

I already realized that, I opened a discussion about Boldore's ability before. It's not the first time Goh has used Boldore's stamina for something in the anime, for me there is no doubt that this Pokémon's ability is Sturdy.--Hikaru Wazana (talk) 11:35, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
I think Sturdy's depiction of a Pokemon withstanding attacks is too vague to make an educated guess, many, many, Pokemon have withstood attacks and a majority don't have Sturdy. So Sturdy is an ability that needs to be explicitly mentioned.--ForceFire 12:01, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
Isn't the fact it was the only one to withstand Sheer Cold not enough proof? Rahl (talk) 12:20, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
I don't recall if ohko moves have been explicitly referred to as such in the anime, or if the concept of move being an ohko move exists, so Sheer Cold could just be seen as any other move.--ForceFire 05:48, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Eternatus

So yesterday I added more info to Goh's Eternatus page, as I thought it should cover Eternatus as the Darkest Day. Do you think it's a good idea to rename the page to something like Eternatus (Darkest Day) and re-add the info?--Reinhartmax (talk) 11:32, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

I think there being a manga version of Goh's specific Eternatus makes it more "unique", as in it's not just any random Eternatus. I don't think a separate article for the one specific game Eternatus is needed, that can be put in their respective sections in their respective articles.--ForceFire 05:48, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Pages for deletion

I saw you deleting some pages in the RC's, so could you take a look at other pages to be deleted? I think they're sitting there and the staff didn't make a backlog of these pages.

The pages about battle facility Pokémon in that category can be deleted because these have been replaced. --Bfdifan2006 (T/C) 20:04, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Staff will get to the articles in those categories, and any other categories of similar nature, when they can. We have lives. No need to get all worried and panicky about this sort of stuff.--ForceFire 05:48, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

evkl's welcome template

I think I realize by now that I could have just copied my own version to my own userspace and do the modifications there, right?

I did so because the current version of the welcome template has an issue with the signature field. Specifically, it breaks on mobile devices, so I wanted to create a non-breaking version. (My custom CSS has that all tables are to have border-collapse set to separate, so it might look different for you). --Bfdifan2006 (T/C) 14:52, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Regular/casual users aren't going to find it anyway. It doesn't matter.--ForceFire 15:03, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
Okay. I decided to just have my own version in my own userspace, but with the content matching the one in evkl's version (for consistency). --Bfdifan2006 (T/C) 15:11, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Goh's Caterpie

This page User:Rahl/Goh's Caterpie meets the notability requirements. Could it get mainspaced? Rahl (talk) 15:40, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Done.--ForceFire 15:44, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Lavender Town and hoaxes

You do realize that, outside of the community, Lavender Town is known for being the subject of tons of hoaxes and not specifically Lavender Town Syndrome, right? Also, anyone who has learned about the myth that the music was changed would have learned about the whole hoax. No one's gonna mention that the music was supposedly changed and not the suicides and such. The effects are the entire point of the hoax. The music was simply the backdrop. The trivia point skates around mentioning a specific hoax by completely ignoring why people outside of the community know that music change lie. So, if it's truly notable enough, the reason it's notable at all should be included. Nobody cares that the music was changed, people only care why it was supposedly changed. Add what people know it for or delete it. That part by itself lacks any notability. Since you can't mention a specific hoax, the only option is to get rid of it. The fact that Lavender Town's the subject of hoaxes is infinitely more notable than that, and therefore infinitely more worthy than the current point. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. Your reason holds absolutely no water. General Kipicus (talk) 23:31, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Dub season logos in series' pages

I was thinking that dub season logos could be added in the individual series' pages. Here is an example. What do you think?--Ricbolog1310 (talk) 13:03, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

I think it's fine, though it's probably more appropriate in the gallery section of those articles, as it's already there.--ForceFire 16:11, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

I was being consistent with the way logos are shown in the original series page. Ricbolog1310 (talk) 16:18, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Ah, only checked the RS article. Well, if it's already done there, then can't see why it can't be done on the other series article.--ForceFire 16:20, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. In this case I'll add them.--Ricbolog1310 (talk) 16:45, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

"Undiscovered" Egg Group

All move pages still use the name "Undiscovered" instead of "No Eggs Discovered". Are they supposed to?--Rocket Grunt 23:29, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

N Template

So you deleted the template for N, which I think might have been a mistake. He has four Pokémon with pages.--Rahl (talk) 16:53, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

While I'm on the topic, Pryce, Lt. Surge, Koga, Jasmine, and Blaine have more than one Pokémon with a page.--Rahl (talk) 17:00, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
12 years ago, this was proposed by electAbuzzzz, a now-retired staff member. I think the staff brought this up again, on the staff-only section of the forums. --Bfdifan2006 (T/C) 17:12, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
No. No it was not brought up on the staff forums nor on the staff discord. I found it after trying to remember where exactly I saw the "rules" I laid out in my previous response. Admittedly I could only vaguely remember the first rule, and not the second.
As for those, may have missed the manga specific articles as I was mainly focused on the anime part. I've restored those one.--ForceFire 17:49, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for fixing those. - unsigned comment from Rahl (talkcontribs)

Three questions

  1. If you think a similar bit is actually okay on the Buck page, then why did you remove the bit I added to kodama's page? I know search is the bigger issue here, but I think it requires to be talked about.
  2. Is it okay that I can mainspace my {{code}} template? Bulbapedia did have it at some point, but it was deleted. Using it is actually much easier than having to type <code><nowiki></nowiki></code> (without the <nowiki></nowiki> in some cases). Of course, I will change the documentation template used on the template page (after mainspacing the page) to the one bthrussellUK made.
  3. I think I could create the page Template:Tl (short for "template link") as a redirect to the {{template}} link template. I feel its name is too long in this case, but I am not requesting you to move the template. What do you think?

--Bfdifan2006 (T/C) 20:37, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

First of all, I did not add the baku bit to Buck's article. Do not make false accusations, you are treading a very thin line here. Secondly, just because it's elsewhere doesn't mean it's okay. I've removed it.
No and no.--ForceFire 06:07, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

April Fools' Day 2022 article (serious matter)

For the article about this day (which is currently located at User:Bfdifan2006/April Fools' Day 2022), you said it can go back to the mainspace when April 1 is over in all parts of the world. In that case, it should be re-mainspaced on April 2, at 11:00 UTC (which is when April 1 is over in Niue). Ideally, this would be at 12:00 UTC on that day, but all territories that use UTC -12 are uninhabited. The time zone that is the furthest behind but used by people is UTC -11, used in Niue. See here. I'm saying this is serious, so you don't treat it as an April Fools' joke.

Do not create a new article about the same thing. After re-mainspacing mine, just expand it. --Bfdifan2006 (T/C) 07:54, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

... This was completely unnecessary. You, or anyone, can just move the page once April 2nd roll over. No need to spam my talk page with this nonsense.--ForceFire 08:42, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
Just so you don't get the wrong idea, I mainspaced BthrussellUK's version of the article because it was already more fleshed out than yours.--ForceFire 11:38, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
Just delete User:Bfdifan2006/April Fools' Day 2022, I don't need that anymore. I included most info about Duck there, in fear that the article will be deleted, but since it wasn't, all this is redundant. --Bfdifan2006 12:17, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

April Fools' Day 2022/Duck (Pokémon)

In the first section on this page, the link that says "Duckling" is meant to link to the Evolution section of that page, but now it links to the page's original title. Can you fix that so it doesn't need to reload the page to just load a redirect? --Bfdifan2006 12:17, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Mascots

I literally added a similar bit to Meloetta's page, stating it being the mascot of Pokémon Showdown. Nobody removed it, so why wasn't the Poképédia mascot thing notable for Uxie? And I am not calling you to remove that bit from Meloetta's page. --Bfdifan2006 11:35, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Because a Pokemon being used as a mascot for a fansite is not notable. The Uxie bit has also been removed many times before with the same reasoning. I know what I'm doing, I've been around a fair bit. Azumarill, Koffing, Celebi, and Bulbasaur (to name a few) also don't have trivia about them being mascots of Marriland, Smogon, Serebii, and Bulbapedia.--ForceFire 11:53, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

I found a source that calls the pattern on Eevee's tail a heart

https://dragonsabbath.proboards.com/thread/27/heart-tailed-eevee

In this community, there was a user who agreed with my post claiming the Eevee has a heart on its tail. The user who replied to this thread at the bottom said that it was a heart, and didn't mention anything about a flower. Mario60866 (talk) 11:24, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Other "fans" agreeing with your opinion does not count as a source.--ForceFire 12:02, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Why did you put the word fans in quotation marks? Are you implying you think I made this up? Mario60866 (talk) 12:57, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Because the user that agreed with you has a Wobbuffet related name and avatar, and you have a thing regarding Wobbuffet (be it about a metagame strategy, your brother and his multiple wobbuffet accounts on showdown, or about someone making troll comments on your youtube videos), so yes it's hard to believe that it's really someone else.--ForceFire 13:26, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

This guy is actually Leonard Craft III, who is a known moderator on Pokemon Showdown (DaWoblefet) so it's not who you're thinking of. Mario60866 (talk) 13:28, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Also, he wasn't the only one who agreed with me. A guy with an elephant avatar also agreed with me, and I never talked about the weird thing I used to have about Phanpy yet. Mario60866 (talk) 13:33, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

The other user did not agree with you, they were just saying that it was cute, not that it had a "heart" shape pattern. Another user also questions whether the pattern is actually a heart or a flower.
Bottom line is, the opinions of others do not matter, only the official sources do (and a random forum is not an official source). in this case, where there is no official source, we go but what makes the most sense, and the pattern being a flower makes the most sense. Because the pattern loops around the tail, it is not confined to one part of the tail. Bolded for emphasis.--ForceFire 13:38, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

There was another user in the thread who posted a picture of an official Eevee source proving there was a heart on its tail. Mario60866 (talk) 13:56, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

They just reposted the official artwork, there's not source actually saying that it's meant to be a heart. And you're simply refusing to listen, the pattern surrounds its tail, therefore, when you view it from above it forms a flower. I suggest you drop this, as you are simply trying to get your own way by assuming other people agreeing with you somehow validates your opinion.--ForceFire 14:11, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
Partner Eevee gender differences.png Discussion's over. Kai * the Arc Toraph 19:18, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Crunch/Thunder Fang

I strongly, strongly disagree with you on this. Those weren't electric spark, just energy sparks of the energy jaws hitting each other. In every other way, it's identical to Houndoom's Crunch. That minor of a difference shouldn't count as evidence towards a much more illogical move. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 11:43, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Ok, fair point about the sparks, but it still doesn't mean it's Crunch. Crunch does not have a unique enough animation.--ForceFire 12:02, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
We've seen two confirmed cases of Crunch in Journeys, and in my opinion, comparing them with Huntail's move counts as good evidence of it being Crunch. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 14:42, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
The difference between the elemental fangs and Crunch (and to an extent, Bite) is that the former have an extra flair to their animations, whereas the latter two do not. A simple biting animation could be either Crunch or Bite. You can bring up the other examples of "Crunch" all you want, the bottom line is, the animation is too simple and vague to be a specific move.--ForceFire 07:24, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
Bite has a distinctively different animation compared to Crunch in Journeys. Crunch is jaws of energy clamping down on the opponent, whereas with Bite, the user releases teeth-shaped energies from its mouth at the opponent. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 09:49, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

MinnieG

I strongly suspect that this person is actually Kittystyler. Compare these edits (both from confirmed sockpuppets) with this edit. In addition, they seem to focus on character relationships and their grammar structure just seems similar to Kittystyler in general. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 21:43, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately I can't compare their IP addresses as all of KittyStyler's socks have been inactive for too long to compare them to MinnieG. Making similar edits is considered circumstantial, and the only other evidence I have is regarding their email, but that's too weak of evidence to say they're a sock of KittyStyler.--ForceFire 05:37, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
Yeah... I'm aware it's circumstantial evidence, but I do still feel like it's at least worth looking out for. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 07:05, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Re: Images

I understand that not all articles need appearances sections for two stage evolutions, I just thought they did because I saw a couple of them that did, like Casey's Meganium and Serena's Delphox.--MinnieG (talk) 09:58, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Update "Upcoming Anime "Page with Up-To-Date Upcoming Episodes (ASAP)

All the episodes listed are out of date. Could you or someone please fix this by display upcoming current episodes that are coming and up to date (like the one coming this week)? Also, could you do this for all the channels and locations?

https://bulbanews.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Upcoming_anime

I already made a comment on the page's Talk page, but there is no answer. Macpika (talk) 22:15, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

This news page is being moved to a new place at some point in the future and is no longer being updated. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 16:25, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks a million. I was wondering what was going on. Macpika (talk) 00:24, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Attack Order

I've found a YouTube video that shows one of the Japanese-exclusive Professor Oak's lecture segments, this one specifically from the DP series. In it, a Vespiquen attacks Professor Oak with a move that he identifies as Attack Order. And it looks nothing like the move the Combee used in DP032, which Bulbapedia has counted as Vespiquen using Attack Order. Should it be changed to a move error of the Combee using Psybeam? --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 11:14, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

I'll have to find the Japanese episode somehow to verify, but judging by DP032's talk page, seems to be guesswork. As for the move Combee used, it could've been any beam move.--ForceFire 15:05, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
Based on the rainbow colors, it's most likely Psybeam, but whatever it is, it's not Attack Order. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 16:21, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
Found a Japanese version of the episode. Attack Order wasn't mentioned at any point. May I delete the mentions of Attack Order in relation to DP032? --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 23:54, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
Go for it. I'm inclined to believe that it wasn't stated in the original version due to it being guesswork in the first place.--ForceFire 05:36, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
As for Psybeam: here's a pair of comparison images:
Cheryl's Mothim using Psybeam in DP031
Combee's move from DP032
Both beams are multicolored, have identical animations, and are from consecutive episodes in the same series. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 14:28, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
It doesn't matter if it looks similar to other instances of Psybeam, it's still a vague "mutli-colored beam". It is too simple of an animation. Signal Beam and Aurora Beam were also portrayed as a "multi-colored beam" during DP, so it could also be any of those two.--ForceFire 14:44, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
I admit, those two beams look similar. But the images I provided use the same colors, despite being multicolored, and there weren't any beam attacks used during the DP series that used the same multicolor scheme as Psybeam. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 16:41, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Suicune and Cubone

Hi, good morning. I would like to know, if with today's episode, what are the chances of Suicune and Cubone going to mainspace. I mean, in the case of the Cubone, technically, it achievied the requirements today. --Hikaru Wazana (talk) 10:47, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

I wanted to take the opportunity to discuss another topic with you, It's been a while since I've been putting together the images of the strips that anipoke's profile posts on Twiiter[2]. I've been thinking that maybe this content fits better in the pages of each episode, because probably by the end of Journeys, this page can get huge and with a huge list of references. This page proved to be very complicated to update and put content, one of the reasons why I take so long to update it completely. What do you (or the Bulbapedia's staff) think about this idea?--Hikaru Wazana (talk) 14:47, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Suicune and Cubone have been moved. As for the strips, they seem to be in the same vain as Get Inspired! Let's Solve a Poké Riddle!!. I think it's fine for its own article and for individual episodes to have it mentioned in the trivia, as we do with the other Japan exclusive bonus content.--ForceFire 10:22, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Poke Ball (Jungle 64)

In regards to the deletion of Poke Ball (item) and Poke Ball (Hisui), should the similar redirect for Poké Ball (Jungle 64) also be deleted? There are also other similar redirects such as: Pokemon (species), Pokemon (TCG), Poke Fan (Trainer class), Poke Maniac (Trainer class), Poke Kid (Trainer class), and so on. Thoughts? Landfish7 06:53, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Goh Pokemon Pages

I was wondering if Grimer, Misdreavus and Absol were worthy of having their own pages right now?--BigDocFan (talk) 15:42, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Sorry to get involved in your conversation. But I wanted a suggestion, regarding this page here. When I created it, I imagined that the two monkeys would have similar screen time(Actually, I thought Goh was going to capture a Pansage up until this point), but Panpour apparently proved to be more notable than Pansear and technically, it met the requirements to go to mainspace, but Pansear has yet to have at least one more major appearance. What should I do in this case? Do I leave the page as it is or divide it to make room for a Panpour solo page?
I'm wanting to reduce Goh's Pokémon pages, so much so that I'm waiting to see if Goh's Froakie will really have a relevance to the anime before actually making a page for it. If Froakie has a relevant role in the Greninja episode maybe I'll be working on it.--Hikaru Wazana (talk) 19:25, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
Grimer, Misdreavus, and Absol all meet the notability requirements. As for Pansear/Panpour, only Panpour would be notable. And I think having individual articles for the two is better, it would only make sense to group them if he had all three and if there's not enough info to necessitate splitting them into three articles.--ForceFire 06:11, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
Just so I understand, according to the rules, Frogadier (good thing I waited to create the page LOL) only needs one more major appearance in the anime, right? As for Panpour, well I put the monkeys page in a space that I reserved to be deleted. If you can sort this out for me, please.[3]
Having no idea what Goh's role would be in an anime series based on Scarlet and Violet, I think it's best to avoid having too many pages for his Pokémon. We are going to that moment when the Pokémon that are notable are, those that are not, unfortunately, will no longer be--Hikaru Wazana (talk) 10:50, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Do these three pages have what it takes to go to mainspace?

Theoretically, they are within the rules stipulated for Goh's Pokémon.--Hikaru Wazana (talk) 13:55, 05 May 2022 (UTC)

RE: Goh's Dustox

I understand. I just assumed that since they've appeared in at least three episodes, and two of them were mainly focused on them, I thought it was notable enough to give them their own articles. I saw that Trapinch's box was removed from the "Recurring" part of Goh's Pokémon. I'll just re-add Trapinch there, since you've informed me that his page was notable enough for an article.

HygorBH (talk) 05:19, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Goh's Pyukumuku

I wanted to know if Goh's Pyukumuku is eligible to receive its own page. It had three episodes in which was somewhat prominent on, and I wonder if it's enough to earn it it's page?

HygorBH (talk) 15:41, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Don't just make the article after asking. Pyukumuku is notable for an article.--ForceFire 05:25, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Image dispute

There's been disagreement over at Bulbagarden Archives, with Rahl reverting several images, some multiple times, because they don't agree with the reasons given to why the current version should be used. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 20:57, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Unnecessary redirects

Yesterday, I removed the redirect "Unevolve", which had led to "Devolution" . Can you remove it? Also, there's a redirect page called "Literal Ghost" leading to "Ghost (literal)", even though only "Literal ghost" (with a small g) has ever been used on various talk pages. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 07:27, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Champion Pokemon

Hi, could User:Rahl/Wallace's Milotic and User:BigDocFan/Leon's Charizard be mainspaced? According to notability rules, both qualify. Rahl (talk) 14:34, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Leon's Charizard has mostly just appeared in battles, so it's not notable yet. Wallace's Milotic, not too sure if opening the Wallace Cup would fall under having an impact on the plot (putting on a show in its debut appearance, doesn't), otherwise it's only other notable appearance is a battle, so that too wouldn't make it notable.--ForceFire 06:44, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
I'm failing to see how they aren't notable according to the rules. Both are their signature Pokémon, have done nonbattle related things (Milotic with the Wallace Cup, Charizard with the Darkest Day and JN100), have media related to more than just the anime, and have had impact on the plot (both worked as a motivation for a main character to improve/develop). What exactly is missing for them to not be mainspaced? Rahl (talk) 11:27, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
Am I going to hear back from you on this? Rahl (talk) 10:07, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
I see you've been editing over the past few days and am wondering if I'm going to hear back from you? Rahl (talk) 10:02, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Apologies for the late response. For Milotic, I'm not sure if its role in the Wallace Cup could be considered having an impact on the arc/plot, get second opinions for this one. For Charizard, all of its role were still mostly for battles, it needs to do something that isn't it battling another Pokemon.--ForceFire 06:11, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Who should I seek out for a second opinion on Milotic? And as for Charizard, while it has mostly battled, it serves as Ash's main obstacle to overcome in Journeys, helped with the Darkest Day crisis, and had a nonbattle role in JN100 where it trained with Leon and Ash. We also know it is going to have more appearances, not to mention its role in the manga, games, TGC, and multiple other animes. I think the 'only battled' argument is keeping this a little too restrictive. Leon's Charizard clearly deserves to have a page of its own. Rahl (talk) 10:15, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
You can ask anyone about the notability Milotic's role, staff member or regular user. Basically just get the general idea of what others think. For Charizard, its appearance in other media doesn't make it more notable for an anime centric article. It can appear in 100 more episodes, but if it's all just battling, then it's still not notable. Leon used it very briefly in the training and Charizard doesn't really do anything of note. It being a motivator for Ash is more about the development of Ash than it is about Charizard.--ForceFire 10:35, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
Multiple people have voiced their agreement for Milotic. Could you please move the page to the mainspace? Rahl (talk) 15:24, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
Saw it and felt that it kinda missed the point. Mostly the opinion is "it appeared a whole bunch, so it has to be notable" not about what it actually did in those episodes. I'll repeat what I said about Charizard, Milotic could appear in another 100 episodes but if it didn't do anything of note, it still wouldn't be notable.--ForceFire 15:28, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
"Gym Leaders may have an article about their signature Pokémon, but only if it did more than just battle in the episode(s) it appeared in and had some impact on the plot. Elite Four members, Champions, and Frontier Brains also fall into this category." Since none of this seems to matter and we are not following them, can the notability rules be changed so this problem doesn't happen again? Rahl (talk) 15:31, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
"but only if it did more than just battle in the episode(s) it appeared in and had some impact on the plot". It has to do more than battle and what it does has to be impactful to the plot. They are not individual criteria.--ForceFire 15:36, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
Great. Milotic inspired Dawn and helped her regain her confidence in Contests. Charizard helped stop the Darkest Day and is acting as motivation for Ash in the World Series. Both impact the plot, and based on what I've seen, nobody else is arguing that these pages don't meet the criteria. This wiki is a collaborative effort, yet nothing is allowed to happen because you personally don't agree these fit the rules? Rahl (talk) 15:39, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
Well, I decided to post here because Rahl asked me to put my opinion.
The problem is that Leon's Charizard page isn't exactly anime-centric. Let's say, Pokémon Evolutions has an episode that shows a lot of Leon's relationship with Charizard, Charizard is one of Leon's most frequent Pokémon in Twilight Wings. As I said in another topic, here are some pages that just don't make sense to be in the mainspace, this one, for example, wasn't even finished and it was already approved.
As for Milotic, I think the same thing, it's a champion's signature Pokémon. The rule that" only battles don't make it a notable Pokémon" seems confusing to me, because I had about three episodes removed from the content of Goh's Farfetch'd's page because they said at the time that these battles were not remarkable to be on his page. Far from wanting to criticize, but some rules need to be reviewed and updated in my opinion. Because that ends up creating more confusion than making things easier.-- Hikaru Wazana (talk) 21:50, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
Charizard is an anime centric article because the anime info is the first thing that's highlighted. Just like how Agatha's Gengar and Lucy's Seviper are manga centric articles because the manga is what is first highlighted. Evolutions and Twilight Charizard is not the same as main series Charizard, just as game/manga Charizard is not the same as anime Charizard. They're all treated as individuals and not one and the same. So whatever Evolutions Charizard does has no bearing on what main series Charizard's notability, since the former is not the focus of the article. For Vikavolt, it's Horacio's signature and had a major role in its second appearance. That's why it has an article.
For Milotic, it's not what it does that's not notable it's how much do people think it was impactful that would determine its notability in this case. I don't remember much of the Wallace Cup arc, so I can't say if it was really impactful to the arc. For your edits that were removed, not every battle needs to be highlighted, just the ones deemed notable. Farfetch'd battling a Gym Leader's Pokemon? notable. Farfetch'd battling a random wild Pokemon that doesn't turn out to be anything special? not notable.--ForceFire 06:45, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
A Pokemon being a motivator for a character is more about the development of the character and not the overall arc. Which is what the criteria asks for. Not having an impact on a character, having an impact on an arc/plot. Charizard's involvement in Darkest Day was ultimately still a battle. Steven's Metagross is on a similar level, but is notable because it helped the characters infiltrate Team Flare's base, that's Metagross having some sort of impact on the plot (technically it was a battle, but there's a wider context).
The wiki is a collaborative effort, but if users aren't understanding the criteria, then staff are going to step in and make it clear what the criteria are asking for.--ForceFire 06:45, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
You said it yourself, having an impact on an arc/plot is what is important. Charizard has done that with the Darkest Day, yet for some reason battling-the major focus of Pokémon-is written off as being useless. Both of these Pokémon have a much larger role across both the anime and the franchise as a whole compared to something like Horacio's Vikavolt. Your defense for that is that it is Horacio's signature Pokémon and had a major role. So did both of these Champion's Pokémon. It makes no sense why these Pokémon have not done enough in your eyes. I suggest you change the language used for the notability rules, or at the very least find some consistency in your argument, as it is very unclear what the actual standards are. Rahl (talk) 07:46, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
"Your defense for that is that it is Horacio's signature Pokémon and had a major role." A major role that wasn't just it battling another Pokemon, which Charizard's role in Darkest Day ultimately was. Metagross' role, because it's in a similar setting, was that it battled to help the main characters infiltrate Team Flare's base. Charizard battled to stop a Pokemon. It wasn't to stop Rose from furthering his plans or something. It was still a Pokémon battle, something that isn't too out of the ordinary for a franchise about battling.--ForceFire 08:25, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
It's ridiculous that to you Charizard is only notable if it participates in something like a dance contest instead of the large amount of stuff it has already done. Even then, Milotic has done nonrelated battle things and you still say that's not important. Nothing will be, will it? If you want to go against what the rules say and the general opinion of the wiki, fine, but please update the notability rules to fit your personal ideal so nobody else ends up wasting their time. Rahl (talk) 14:44, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
If Charizard was in a competition and did something that had an impact on the plot, then it would be notable. Otherwise, if it didn't do anything else and just competed/played it straight, then it still wouldn't be notable (because it didn't do anything else). You're too caught up with the idea that simply appearing and being part of a non-battle event would make it notable. It doesn't. It's what it does during the episode that matters. Vikavolt helped free the Pokemon that was captured by Team Rocket in SM119 (which was when it was mainspaced), Goh's Dewgong protected Chloe and Eevee from a Huntail in JN063 (which was when it was mainspaced), Korrina's Lucario had multiple notable non-battle appearances by the time it was approved.
As for Milotic, I repeat again. Is what it did important enough to the overall arc? You asked on Wallace's talk page but failed to bring that up, only bringing up the notability requirements and everyone else just says yes based off it. On surface level, yes it meets the notability requirement, but notability doesn't involve just reading the requirements and going "yep, it's notable". You have to think about and assess whether what it did in those non battle episodes would make it notable.--ForceFire 06:14, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
Okay, I don't even know if I should help the discussion, but here goes. In the anime, Leon's Charizard:
  • It was confirmed to be Leon's Starter Pokémon. They even showed all its evolution stages in the anime.
  • It was his choice to battle in the first World Championship. In other words, it was used in a competition by Leon.
  • Charizard was used to defend Leon's title (which in the context of Journeys is the same as rivals' Gym Battles). This was, for example, what served to make Bianca's Pignite page notable [4]. [5]. In short, it was used by Leon in the current WCS season.
  • In the context of Darkest Day:
    • Leon used Charizard to defeat Centiscorch and save Ash and his Pokémon.
    • Leon used Charizard as a means of locomotion and to defeat the Coalossal. In other words, he used it for something other than battle.
    • It was used against Eternatus, which according to Leon himself showed that he is not the most powerful Trainer in the world yet as he said in JN100. In other words, this battle (and defeat) is part of Leon's arc in Journeys.
  • JN100, if we ignore the battle against Flint (which again, we can consider as the Gym battles of old), Charizard was used in Leon's flying training

Now to the rules:

  • For rival characters and other recurring characters, only their signature Pokémon may have an article created about them.Charizard is Leon's signature Pokémon. CHECK
  • If a rival's signature Pokémon does nothing more than battle or has no major impact on the plot, then it is not notable for an article and instead should have a section on its Trainer's page. The Coalossal case, Charizard did not battle. Leon's Training did not involve battles. CHECK(!?!)
  • Gym Leaders may have an article about their signature Pokémon, but only if it did more than just battle in the episode(s) it appeared in and had some impact on the plot. Examples would be Blaine's Magmar, which saved the Cinnabar Gym and developed Charizard's personality, or Clair's Dragonair, which helped save the Dragon Kingdom. Elite Four members, Champions, and Frontier Brains also fall into this category. Leon's battle against Ash, served to show the concepts of Gigantamax to Ash. Leon's battle against Raihan served to work out the history of the rivalry between the two Trainers. CHECK

We can spend months discussing this, but the truth is that this is just looking like a matter of conflicting points of view. To me, this seems very much to fall into the problem that the pages are based on most of Ash's relationship with other characters and not his own stories. Even though Ash is the protagonist, it's been a long time since the anime revolves around him and the rules didn't adapt to that(Goh is probably the biggest proof of that). Hence we have to expect that a Pokémon like Charizard has to have some impact on the plot of a technically unrelated character like Ash. Well, I think I elongated too much in the text I put here. I hope it resolves the discussion somehow.-- Hikaru Wazana (talk) 15:50, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

I want to swing back to this and point out that if Miette's Slurpuff is good enough for to be mainspaced than so should the other two, or are we really saying participating in a dance party is more relevant than anything else? Rahl (talk) 10:17, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
You clearly do not get it. If Charizard (and Leon) were to compete in a race (with Ash and Goh), then something happened to Ash and Goh. If Leon doesn't have Charizard go look for Ash and Goh, and just competes in the race from start to finish (therefore unseen for a chunk of the episode), then it still would not be notable. Just competing is not what would make it notable.
The only non-battle thing Charizard did is the training. Which it didn't even do much. What can you really say? Oooooooh, it smashed a few rocks and flew through a waterfall. Wow. Riveting. Fantastic read, can sum it all up in one sentence.
For Milotic, again, you didn't ask others the important factor; how much of what it did was notable. Nobody on Wallace's talk page took that to account. They just saw the notability requirements and went "yep, it meets everything here" without actually thinking about what it actually did in the Wallace Cup arc and evaluating whether it did makes it notable.--ForceFire 05:56, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
So, based on these criteria, even if Leon uses Charizard throughout the 8 Masters tournament campaign, we doesn't have the go-ahead to use this page. Leon's page in the anime, I had to adapt and look for alternatives in the manga section to be standardized precisely because this page doesn't exist. Leon's page in games has a huge infobox with very disproportionate little information precisely because of the lack of this page in the Adventures section;
Even if we are to cling to "all Pokémon X did was battle", more than half of the Pokémon of some rivals will have either undone. From Trip's Serperior, Gary's Arcanine/Gary's Electivire, Paul's Honchkrow to Georgia's Beartic. And I don't think there is much doubt about the importance of this Pokémon in some way. The ironic part of it all is that Leon's Charizard had more space in the anime than Pokemon like Lance's Dragonite, for example. About Milotic I confess that I don't even give an opinion anymore, with all this arm wrestling involving Charizard.
I have a vision of a certain reformulation that should be in the Anime section and with the Adventures manga (which is the manga with the longest defined chronology released) but I'm even afraid to give it.-- Hikaru Wazana (talk) 13:15, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
To say Miette's Slurpuff has more notability or value than Leon's Charizard is an odd choice and one that doesn't hold up when looking at either page or the importance of those Pokémon. Force Fire, please rewrite the rules to fit your mindset so users know what they are getting into. I don't even care if they make sense-they don't-but at least then we have a written process to follow. Your views and what the rules say don't match up as of now. Rahl (talk) 13:19, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
Again, you're not listening. Miette's Slurpuff did stuff outside of the Poke Contest stuff in its debut episode. Leon's Charizard has not done anything outside of battling in it's non battle episodes and its battle-focus episodes. Because that's what the notability requirements is asking for: "but only if it did more than just battle in the episode(s) it appeared in". As in, it needs to do something else other than showing up in a battle. Because it's Pokemon. Battling is the central point of the series. It's what it do. We're not going to have an article that is just "X battled in episode Y" over and over. It's not going to make for an interesting read.
And it also needs to have an impact on the plot. If Charizard battles and wins, then that's not having that much of an impact. Wow. It won. Who knew something would win a series about battling. If the battle was interrupted and Charizard helped get rid of whatever is interrupting the battle, then yes, that would be having an impact on the episode. Because it did more than just battle its intended opponent.
As for the articles Hikaru Wazana brought up, 3/5 of them were created before we got stricter with notability. Gary's Arcanine is fine as it helped stop Team Rocket in Extreme Pokemon! Gary's Electivire is fine as it help protect Shieldon from J and attempted to stop Saturn from taking one of the lake guardians. For Trip's Serperior and Georgia's Beartic, both were approved by the Head of Anime at the time of their move to the mainspace. So I'll assume there was a good reason for their existence.
I'm not trying to manipulate to criteria, I'm just following how the criteria has been interpreted over the years. And sometimes, that interpretation either gets stricter or more lenient. I'm not pulling all this out of thin air. There is no need to re-write the criteria just because you can't understand them.--ForceFire 13:46, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Jiliang

Jiliang has already returned to adding dubious trivia to pages, along with trivia that had already been removed multiple times. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 21:44, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

I've given them a semi block, and a stern message, effectively forcing them to respond on their talk page or risk a full block.--ForceFire 16:50, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Rivals?

Do Bea and Raihan count as rivals in a sense that major events should include their new Pokémon? I'm assuming yes for Bea, but I'm not 10% sure regarding Raihan. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 11:40, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Pokemon of notable rivals get mentioned only if they have articles.--ForceFire 12:15, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
By this, do you mean the "Major events" section or the "Pokémon debuts" section? After looking through episode pages from the original series all the way up to Journeys, it definitely appears to be standard to list new Pokémon for rivals in the "Major events" section, regardless of whether or not they have a page (and only their Pokémon with pages are listed in the "Pokémon debuts" section). PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 22:26, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
Huh, that does seem to be the case after checking a few episodes of rivals obtaining new Pokemon (that I could remember at least), PMJ is right. As for Raihan, I think his 'mon are fine to be mentioned, as does have a major role.--ForceFire 06:45, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Can you fix my name please?

Hi, I just signed up to edit here, but I made a mistake in typing my username. I meant it to be ApexAgunomu. Can you please change my name to that? Thank you. ApexAgunomi (talk) 11:07, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Due to technical issues with the rename function we use, it is not possible to rename users at this time.--ForceFire 12:13, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
Then can you please block this account so I can make a new one with the correct name? Would that be okay? ApexAgunomi (talk) 16:51, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

{{Pokelist}}

The link you recently added to that template should have "GO" instead of "Go" (mind the letter case) as the displayed text. Will you fix it? Thanks. --Bfdifan2006 (T/C) 07:12, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Lucario

So we both edit war and I get blocked, but you get away with no consequences and the page turns out how you want because you’re a special admin and nobody but you is ever right. How about you take it to a talk page for once like you’re always preaching. Hypocritical and childish. Pikablu (talk) 15:29, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

"Trainers start their journey at 10."

This is something that's only ever been stated in the anime. Red, Hilbert/Hilda, Elio/Selene, and Rei/Akari are all older than 10, for example (and no other game protagonist has ever explicitly been confirmed to be 10). The only games to mention a starting age at all are the Alola games, where you have to be 11 to take the island challenge. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 11:15, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

From what I can tell, this was because the protagonists prior to Generation V were "10 or 11 years old" according to Ken Sugimori. Inkster (talk) 11:18, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
Yeah, but that would still mean that they're not explicitly confirmed 10 (and the fact that the Alola games are the only games to mention a starting age is still true as well). Hilbert/Hilda, ORAS Brendan/May, and Rei/Akari are all older than 10/11, too. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 11:26, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
But from what I see on his article, Red is said to be 10 in the European release. Inkster (talk) 11:40, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
Assuming that's true, the Japanese release should take priority over both the American and European releases, although I actually don't know if it's ever been explicitly stated there. Even then, it only adds to my point of players not being explicitly confirmed as 10, given that the American release for the same game states that he's 11. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 11:51, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
Given Sugimori said "10 OR 11" in that interview, it's more of an "either" situation, meaning the Gens I-IV protagonists are either 10 or 11 years old. Inkster (talk) 11:59, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
This would still mean that no protagonist has ever been explicitly confirmed to be 10 even prior to Gen V. If anything, it makes 11 just as likely of a starting age, if not even more so.
Given that there have been protagonists that have started as teenagers (Hilbert/Hilda and Rei/Akari being confirmed cases, although Calem/Serena are probably in that range too), I would definitely not put an age for Victor/Gloria if nothing has been stated. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 12:11, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
Funny that you mention Rei/Akari when ForceFire, a beuracrat mind you, has rejected the source on their article several times, as an NPC guessing the player's age is, in his words, "not confirmation". Inkster (talk) 12:18, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
Interesting. That definitely feels inconsistent since Victor/Gloria don't even have that going for them. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 12:25, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
I wasn't using that to talk about Victor/Gloria. I was bringing it up due to the edit warring it caused. Inkster (talk) 12:28, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

My points are simply that:

1. "Trainers start their journey at 10" is something that's only stated in the anime.

2. No protagonist has ever been outright confirmed to be 10 (even the Sugimori interview only stated that the protagonists prior to Gen V were 10/11 without naming specific cases), with Hilbert/Hilda being 14/15, ORAS Brendan/May being 12, Elio/Selene being 11, and Rei/Akari being "15 or so".

3. The same logic that was used on the Rei/Akari pages in the past (even though those pages do list their ages now) should be applied to a greater extent for Victor/Gloria, especially since no ages have even been hinted at officially. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 12:47, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

1. We all know that.

2. I never said the Gens I-IV protagsbwere 10, only 10 OR 11.

3. The logic used for Rei/Akari should still apply to their articles, especially since the quote was repeatedly deemed unreliable by a higher staff. And yes, I KNOW thay Victor/Gloria have no hints towards an official age. Inkster (talk) 12:55, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

I don't mind whether or not it's removed from the Rei/Akari pages or not. I just find it inconsistent, especially since it was the same higher staff member. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 13:08, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
If anything, it should be removed from the Rei/Akari articles as in the context of the dialogue, Cyllene was assuming the player's age, meaning that their actual age is unknown. Inkster (talk) 22:51, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

(resetting indent)For the "trainers start their journeys at 10" bit. Could've sworn that was the case in the games as well, specifically in Gen I related materials (like a guidebook or something), may be misremembering. As for Rei/Akari, I still don't think it's solid confirmation as Cyllene is just guessing. That should be removed.--ForceFire 08:36, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Beelzemon 2003

Beelzemon 2003 has made excessively long descriptions of event item distributions in the event item articles like the Eon Ticket and MysticTicket, involving details and images unrelated to the items themselves, mostly describing the gatherings where the items were distributed. I've removed the texts unrelated to the items themselves and tried to tell them not to do it again, but they still did it again afterwards. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 11:16, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Coin (TCG)

Maverick Nate is no longer the Head of TCG, however, glik, nuva-kal and Ruixiang95 are. Talking to you to prevent edit warring. --Bfdifan2006 (T/C) 17:01, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

The fact that you listed those three names shows that you don't actually know what "Head of TCG" means. Glik is the head of TCG, not the other two.--ForceFire 17:06, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Alec

User:Hikaru_Wazana/Alec

Is everything ok to transfer this page to mainspace? I moved to my personal space to be able to work better on it, but I already put everything that was missing. Hikaru Wazana (talk) 00:16, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Looks fine, I've mainspaced it.--ForceFire 05:41, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Miette's Slurpuff

How you feeling about this page being mainspaced? It did nonbattle stuff after all. Rahl (talk) 10:33, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

IT does meet the notability requirements, I've mainspaced it.--ForceFire 07:26, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
I recall requesting mainspacing that article in the past, but it was rejected back them. Have the notability requirements changed since then? --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 08:08, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
You requested it at least once on April 14, 2020, and the criteria changed on August 22, 2020. I'm not sure that's specifically what changed but just thought I'd point it out. Landfish7 08:20, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
With Miette owning a Pokemon with its own page and a second Pokemon, can Miette get her own Pokemon template--BigDocFan (talk) 08:51, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
With Slurpuff, and by extension Miette, being unlikely to appear again, I chose to re-evaluate it based off the one appearance it did have some impact, and decided what it did in that episode was notable enough. Ideally, I would like it to do more in just its debut episode, but given it's unlikely to appear again, thought I'd be a bit lenient with it.
As for giving Miette her own Pokemon template, the rule states that a character needs at least two of their Pokemon have articles, not that they own two or more Pokemon.--ForceFire 05:56, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
Makes sense. Thank you for the explanation. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 10:19, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Unblock request

I humbly ask if there's a possibility to bring me back my privileges on editing the Nintendo Switch and creation trio pages. Finally, once I get my privileges on editing the Nintendo Switch and creation trio pages back, I will prove to you that I will be responsible with those pages in the future by discussing a major change, so as to avoid edit warring. --SaturnMario, his talk and his contributions 19:38, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Lillie's Magearna

I was wondering whether User:Samueljoo/Lillie's Magearna might be ready to be mainspaced?--BigDocFan (talk) 18:45, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Possible to merge accounts?

I used to work here as Croconaw2000, but I deleted the email a long time ago and don’t remember the password, so I was completely unable to log back in. Would it be possible to merge the two accounts in some way, or redirect the old account into this one?

Also, if MarioWiki says that Wartortle has the same Chinese name as Kooper, why shouldn’t we note it ourselves?

Pikmin3WiiU (talk)

... users are only allowed one account per person, but I'll allow this instance. It is not possible to merge accounts, and I don't think it's necessary to redirect the old one. And we're not MarioWiki. It may be notable there, but it's not notable here.--ForceFire 10:13, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

I wouldn’t have made a new account if I could log back into the old one. I had also asked on the bulbapedia discord if it was possible to change the email or password and they suggested creating a new account

Pikmin3WiiU (talk)

Move template

Do you think the {{anmov}} template could be used for Z-Moves and Max Moves. I feel having the description of those moves on the Pokémon's article is unnecessary, given that, unlike improvised moves, they have move pages to house their move descriptions. They could definitely still remain under separate subheaders in the "Moves used" section, but the current format doesn't fit them IMO. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 11:08, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

I feel having the same move descriptions on the Pokémon's page kind of defeats the purpose of having a separate page to house those descriptions, specifically the movie's own article. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 11:22, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
That's something I've also thought about as well, the descriptions aren't really needed as those are already explained on the individual move articles. The base move being used for the Z-move is probably the only important part, I think, so a re-tweaked version of the current move template to accommodate that would be good.--ForceFire 12:06, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

First visits to a region

Do the first visits to a region from characters other than the Journeys main trio count as major events? --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 11:22, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

For former main characters, yes. I believe we also note when Misty and Brock travelled to Alola in the major events section.--ForceFire 12:00, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
So only important when it is a main character?Pikablu (talk) 12:17, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
Yes. They were at one point main characters, that makes them important enough.--ForceFire 12:47, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
And so we're clear, because I know what you're trying to do, the focus here is former main characters not Chloe or other supporting characters. Different rules for different characters.--ForceFire 12:48, 24 May 2022 (UTC)