Bulbapedia - User contributions [en]

Talk:First partner Pokémon/Archive 1

2014-04-27T13:15:06Z

Tgage: /* Trivia (Could be added to a trivia point speaking of egg group) */ new section

==Normal Starters==
Should Pikachu be considered a 'normal' starter? I mean, it isn't part of the Fire/Water/Grass triangle, and it can also be captured in the wild in many of the other games, something that no other starters have right now. It's also the starter only in one game (although, so have Colosseum Starters, XD Starter, and Ranger Starter). --[[User:PikamasterADV|PikamasterADV]] 12:01, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
:Well, why not? The fact it is not part of the triangle does not disqualify him as a starter Pokémon. If we had a Dark/Fighting/Psych triangle, wouldn't still they be starters? Also, the Fire/Grass/Water triangle is already broken is some cases, like the 4th generation starters having second types after they evolve. In any case, he is undoubtedly a starter in the ranks of Squirtle and Charmander. He is given out by a professor (and our very original professor Oak in his case), is given in one of the "main" games of the series, and is a basic Pokémon. --[[User:Andrelvis|Andrelvis]] 15:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
::Well, don't forget that also, pretty much every starter gets a second type through evolution. Only ones who don't are Squirtle, Chikorita, Cyndaquil, Totodile, and Treecko. Hell, Bulbasaur has two types in its basic form.
::And I think the division's more on the games that are defined as the main RPG series vs the side games. After all, Pichu makes Pikachu a stage 1 now, in all technicalities. But, of course, Yellow is just as much a main game as Red, Blue, and Green are, unlike Colosseum and XD compared to Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald, even though all of them are RPGs. [[User:TTEchidna|Tom Temprotran]] 01:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Exactly. And that's why we have the "special starters" section. They are starters, but not as much so as the "main game" ones. --[[User:Andrelvis|Andrelvis]] 17:37, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
::::But they're not special per se. They're just... not mainstream. - [[User:Zhen Lin|振霖]][[User talk:Zhen Lin|T]] 17:56, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::A little off-topic, but I heard a rumor that Game Freak was considering a Fighting/Psychic/Dark trio for the Gen IV starters, but they decided to switch back to the usual Grass/Fire/Water trio. [[User:Diachronos|Diachronos]] 16:15, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

== To add to Trivia ==

I noticed this. Of the Grass starters up to and including Generation IV, all of the final forms have eight-letter English names. Venusaur, Meganium, Sceptile, and Torterra.
:Hmmm. Well, it's interesting, but the trivia section's already huge! '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]{{ani|155|Fire echy}}[[User:TTEchidna/GSDS|GSDS!]]''' 09:22, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

== To Remove from Trivia ==
"Usually upon evolution, the starter Pokémon gain another type. However, Blastoise, the three Johto starters' final forms (Meganium, Typhlosion, and Feraligatr), and Sceptile do not have a second type." This quote is not very accurate. The trivia itself lists 5 out of the 12 final evolutions of the main series' starters that don't gain a new type (technically it should be 6 of 13 because of [[Pikachu]]; which while it can't evolve in Yellow still does in every other version). 5 out of 12 is about 42%; which means that "usually" is used to define an occurance rate barely over 50% and is like saying Pokemon split equally into both [[gender|genders]] are "usually" one over the other. Additionally, only 6 of the 13 (about 46%) main series staters actually gain a new type out of evolution, as [[Bulbasaur]] starts with the {{type|Poison}}. I'm not sure if complete removal of this trivia is called for, but it definitely needs to be reworded. --[[User:ZellMurasame|ZellMurasame]] 05:15, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
:That's an overinspective technicality... but sure, it should be reworded if that's statistically the case. Just make sure not to link species with square brackets, man. The {{template|p}} template is there for use, especially with the starters and their families... all of which have appeared owned by a main anime character... '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]{{ani|155|Fire echy}}[[User:TTEchidna/GSDS|GSDS!]]''' 08:57, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

==Pikachu==

Just saying buy uh.. You guys put every Pokemon's evolutions in the normal games. But not Pikachu's in Pokemon Yellow?
:Pikachu can't evolve in Yellow. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]{{ani|155|Fire echy}}[[User:TTEchidna/GSDS|GSDS!]]''' 04:16, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

== Colosseum elemental starters ==

Even though you can get the remaining two at the end of the game, let's not forget that Bayleef, Quilava, and Croconaw are somewhat "starter" Pokémon in Pokémon Colosseum, since you need to snag one of them at the beginning of the adventure. Maybe they're like Eevee's evolutionary stones or shards in that their availability isn't immediate... However, one of the things that make them non-traditional starters is that the game doesn't explicitly ask you "you want this Pokémon, or this one, or this one?". --[[User:Johans|Johans]] 03:07, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

You just have to beat Rosso, Verde, or Bluno. You don't have to snag their Shadow Pokémon. [[User:Gligar|Gli]][[User talk:Gligar|gar]] ''I am not removing this lengthy addition to my signature until all moves have been updated to Platinum standard.'' 00:11, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

== Obediance ==

I seem to recall that in the main series, a Starter Pokémon will always obey even if its level surpasses the mark of a required Gym Badge. Has anyone else experienced this? If so, should it be added to the article somewhere? ~[[User:SaturnYoshi|'''$aturn''']][[User:SaturnYoshi|'''¥oshi''']] [[User talk:SaturnYoshi|THE VOICES]] 19:37, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

All Pokémon caught by the trainer will, they wont obey if they have been received in a trade.[[User:David aipom|Davidaipom]] 19:39, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

:The page on [[Badge]]s does not make that distinction. ~[[User:SaturnYoshi|'''$aturn''']][[User:SaturnYoshi|'''¥oshi''']] [[User talk:SaturnYoshi|THE VOICES]] 19:48, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
::well that's how it works --lord mada 19:50, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

:::So what you're saying is that if a player was able to start a new game and somehow "catch" a Level 70 Pokémon right off the bat, it will obey? ~[[User:SaturnYoshi|'''$aturn''']][[User:SaturnYoshi|'''¥oshi''']] [[User talk:SaturnYoshi|THE VOICES]] 19:54, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
::::yeah I'm pretty sure --lord mada 19:55, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::Interesting... Well then, disregard. ~[[User:SaturnYoshi|'''$aturn''']][[User:SaturnYoshi|'''¥oshi''']] [[User talk:SaturnYoshi|THE VOICES]] 19:57, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
::::::Yes but dont forget that's very unlikely in the main series. [[User:Ritchie|Ritchie]]
:::::::Start a new game, trade away a random caught Pokémon, get it back after a while at level 70 and it likely will obey. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 18:54, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Unlikely, but possible. Especially with an Action Replay. ~[[User:SaturnYoshi|'''$aturn''']][[User:SaturnYoshi|'''¥oshi''']] [[User talk:SaturnYoshi|THE VOICES]] 17:53, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

== Trivia overload? ==

Don't get me wrong, I always love a lot of additions to the trivia section, but even now it seems like it's way too much. We might want to cut back on some more esoteric things, and group the move pattern observations together. [[User:Toastypk|'''''~Toastypk''''']] - [[User_Talk:Toastypk|'''Loom.''']] 17:41, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
:Maybe it would be possible to encorporate some of the more anime-exclusive trivia into the anime section and likewise for game-exclusive, and only put overall trivia at the bottom. ''[[User:Moldy orange|'''Moldy''']][[User talk:Moldy orange|'''Orange''']]'' 17:45, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
::Something I noticed on the Trivia section is that one of the links is broken; specifically, the cross-Wiki link about Charmander being based of the mythical Salamander. --[[User:Mikekearn|Mike]] | [[Special:Contributions/Mikekearn|Contrib]] 03:00, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:::This was a stupid error on my part; I fixed it just now. I had fixed the link before, but I put wp:Salamander (legendary creature) rather than wp|Salamander (legendary creature). This caused a broken link. It was very unprofessional of me, and I greatly apologize for the error. [[User:Kumori Satosuke|Satosuke]] 03:18, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

==No editing?==
Why cant I edit this? I found an error... --'''[[User:Mooites|Mooites]]''' [[User talk:Mooites|Talk to me, baby!]] 18:47, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
:So did I. I don't know if it's the same as yours, but its at the end of the page. It's missing a period. --[[User:PsychicRider|'''Psychic''']][[User talk:PsychicRider|'''Rider''']]''''[[Special:Contributions/PsychicRider|'''☮''']]'' 18:50, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
::In the middle of something, didn't want an edit conflict. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 18:54, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

==Gen IV type-trumping==
I just noticed something about the Sinnoh starters' final forms. Each of them gains a a type advantage over the starter it is weak to in some way:
*Torterra gains the Ground-type, which is super-effective against Infernape.
*Infernape gains the Fighting-type, which is super-effective against Empoleon's Steel-type.
*Empoleon gains the Steel-type, which gives it a resistance to Torterra's Grass-type (although it does give a weakness to Torterra's Ground-type (maybe for balance issues); however, being a Water-type, Empoleon can learn Ice-type attacks to deal super-effective damage against both of Torterra's types).
[[User:Diachronos|Diachronos]] 16:26, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:However, the steel type also renders Empoleon without a resistance to either of Infernape's types, thus actually making it WEAK to Infernape (at least to it's fighting type, and the steel offbalances the water resistance to fire). [[User:Kumori Satosuke|Satosuke]] 11:40, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::Including Empoleon's ability to learn Ice moves, all the starters have moves which are super effective against the other two starters. As in, the examples listed above and the normal type advantage circle (except Empoleon is weak to Ground not Grass)So, in a way, it means that none of them are superior to the others. [[User:Gastly's Mama|Gastly's Mama]]

==Gary's Starter==
Is the statement "it caused many to hearken back to Pokémon Yellow, where the player starts with Pikachu, like Ash, and the rival starts with Eevee" the wrong way round because Pokemon Yellow was based on the anime and because Gary's true starter had not been revealed at the time, the makers made Eevee his starter, as the game required him to have a confirmed one? Therefore rather than people thinking this because that was his starter in Yellow, is it not much more likely that this was his starter in Yellow because people thought it was starter already? - ''unsigned comment from {{u|Gastlys mama}} ([[User talk:Gastlys mama|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Gastlys mama|contribs]]) ''

== Platinum ==

It's different in Platinum. There are no Starly. He just give them out for some reason to the two and they battle each other. Someone who knows the reason should place it. *[[User:Tc26|Tc]][[User talk:Tc26|26]]* 07:02, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
:Maybe it's to test out their newly received pokémon? that seems the most logical to me... [[User:Mijzelffan|Mijzelffan]] 15:40, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
::I think the question is why did Rowan give them to the character and Pearl. [[User:The Dark Fiddler|The Dark Fiddler]] - [[User talk:The Dark Fiddler|Nos hablamos?]] 15:45, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
:::Well, that can wait until March... '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 03:25, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
::::Its almost time for Platinum to come out in America, better get ready to fill that in!--[[User:Dragonbeastx/The Aura Spot|X, PEACE TO]][[User:Dragonbeastx|THE DRAGONS AND]][[User talk:Dragonbeastx|THE BEASTS]] 07:18, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

== Trivia Addition ==

I felt it would be interesting to note that all of the starter's first evolutions have the same base stat total of 405, whereas the base and final forms vary greatly.
:Every middle evolution, you mean? Definitely something to say. But the final forms' variance needn't be mentioned; it's not like they're Butterfree vs Arceus in terms of BST difference. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 04:50, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

== Second Trivia Addition ==

Wouldn't it be a good idea to post the fact that in the anime, the protagonist's starter Pokémon actually has a type advantage over the rival's starter Pokémon other than the other way around? (Ash obviously had Pikachu whereas Gary had Squirtle) Seems relevant --[[User:Blackstone Dresden|Blackstone Dresden]] 03:47, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
:No. Basically what they did was say Gary had a MYSTERY OMGEEZ and then an EEVEE OMGEEZ YELOW and then BLASTOISE HAHA. And by that third point, in Johto, Ash's Charizard counted almost as much as Pikachu anyway, especially considering the battle the two had using those. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 04:52, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

== Kanto starters in HGSS? ==

I just got all 16 badges, Oak gives me a HM08, but no starter. Do i have to do something beforehand? -->'''[[User:223david|223]][[User_talk:223david|david]]''' 01:19, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
:This sounds kind of forum-y to me, but you might have to do the Copycat event first - I read somewhere that you have to do that in order to get a Hoenn starter from Steven, at least. [[User:Umeko|梅子]][[User talk:Umeko|❀]][[Special:Contributions/Umeko|✿]] 01:23, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
::All events done ''except for red''. do i have to beat him firsT? -->'''[[User:223david|223]][[User_talk:223david|david]]''' 01:26, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
:::Yes. [[User:Umeko|梅子]][[User talk:Umeko|❀]][[Special:Contributions/Umeko|✿]] 01:27, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

== The mystical, amazing disappearing starter Pokemon! ==

I could have sworn I saw this discussed somewhere before, but for the life of me I can't find it now. Oh well.

Anyway, at some point in HGSS (not sure exactly when) the third starter Pokemon which wasn't chosen by the PC or the rival mysteriously vanishes from its place in Elm's lab. (The game text when the... whatever that machine is... is examined is something along the lines of, "Hey! The third Pokeball is gone! Was it given to someone?" though I can't be bothered to switch games in my DS to check for sure.) I figure that this is notable enough to go into the article, and I'd put it in there myself, but I quite honestly don't know if its disappearance is ever explained, and I figure that if it ''were'' explained that should go in the article too.

Thoughts?/Anyone know what in the world happened to it? [[User:Umeko|梅子]][[User talk:Umeko|❀]][[Special:Contributions/Umeko|✿]] 00:29, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
:If you're looking for a general discussion on this, head to the forums. Pedia-wise, the only thing we can really do is say that it vanishes and we don't know where to. —'''darklord[[User talk:The dark lord trombonator|trom]]''' 00:35, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
::Nah, wasn't looking for a general discussion. I brought it up for the purpose of adding it into the article... And I haven't beaten the game yet, so I don't know if its disappearance is left unexplained, and that's why I didn't want to say that in the article (maybe it is explained, and I just haven't gotten that far yet!). I thought maybe someone else would have the answer so that it could be added to the article, definitively stating whether its disappearance was explained or not. [[User:Umeko|梅子]][[User talk:Umeko|❀]][[Special:Contributions/Umeko|✿]] 00:40, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

== Can someone please put these up? ==

They're missing from the page. Pokabu's picture is the only one on there. --[[User:Dialgafan1|Dialgafan1]] 18:42, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

== Was this ever confirmed? ==

On the article it said "In Pokémon Black and White, the regional professor, yet unnamed, will offer the player a choice of the Grass-type Tsutarja, the Fire-type Pokabu, or the Water-type Mijumaru. " It's very likely this is true, but this was never confirmed so should we edit it?--[[User:Eastern|Eastern]] 18:07, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
:It's been proven. There's even an official site of the game that confirms this. - [[User:050294|050294]] 23:40, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
::I think what he means is, does the professor actually give it to the player, or is there a situation similar to DPPt, where they decide to take them and are allowed to keep them later, et cetera.—[[User:Urutapu|Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？]] ([[User talk:Urutapu|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Urutapu|contribs]]) 09:24, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
:::Yeah, that's what I mean.--[[User:Eastern|Eastern]] 15:26, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

== Ranger "starters"? ==

I just now noticed that the Ranger partner Pokemon weren't included in the page (but I remember them being on there before). But can they be considered starter Pokemon? They probably weren't the first Pokemon the player captured (except in the first ranger game), but they are the first Pokemon they get to keep for themselves. So can they still be considered starters?

== Cheren & Bel Starters ==

Example: I choose Pokabu, Cheren will Choose Mijumaru and Belle will chose Tsutarja. But this is

not confirmmed---[[User:Franztrovao]] July 24, 2010 - 18:10 (UTC)

:It '''''IS''''' confirmed ([[User:Ataro|Ataro]] 18:15, 24 July 2010 (UTC))

== Trivia ==

Since I want no part in the edit war, I'm going to explain the trivia piece here:

<code>
As of [[Generation IV]], every '''starter-type''' in the main series (with the exception of {{p|Pikachu}}) has have one Pokémon in its final-stage of evolution to have a double weakness; {{p|Charizard}} is doubly weak to {{type|Rock}}, {{p|Swampert}} is doubly weak to {{type|Grass}} and {{p|Torterra}} is doubly weak to {{type|Ice}}.</code>

It doesn't say by generation. It says by starter ''type''. That means Fire, Water, and Grass.
Charizard, Torterra, and Swampert are members of these respective types and have double weaknesses. The trivia, meaning-wise, is fine. (Unless one were to count Bulbasaur's Poison typing...)

So yeah, if you're going to remove it, remove it for a different reason plz and thanks.--[[User:Cold|Cold]] ([[User talk:Cold|talk]]) 23:33, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

== Should Mystery Dungeon initial Pokémon be considered starters? ==

I've looked through Mystery Dungeon: Blue's manual, Bulbapedia's pages on all three sets of games, and the official Explorers of Sky webpage and have seen no mention of the initial Pokémon from MD as "starters", just "Hero Pokémon" (for the player) and "Partner Pokémon" (for the partner). They seem to lack the basic criteria for being starters (the initial Pokémon owned by a ''trainer''), even more so than the Ranger's [[Partner Pokémon]] which were already deemed not to be starters. Now I'll admit I never even played through Blue fully (and never played the others), so there may be something in-game, but I think we should separate them into their own ''Hero and Partner Pokémon'' page or something, as they don't seem to belong here. '''[[User:Memo326|Memo]]'''[[User talk:Memo326|326]] 02:48, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
:Completely agree. I've fixed this page, but the navigation template needs to be modified still. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 15:34, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

== Pokémon Yellow Evolution ==

The article says that the rival's {{p|Eevee}} evolves into {{p|Jolteon}}, {{p|Flareon}} or {{p|Vaporeon}} depending on the outcomes of battles between the player and the rival. Specifically, which battles are important, and how do the results affect the evolution? It seems like this would be a useful thing to add to the article. I believe that if the player loses the first battle in Pallet Town, the {{p|Eevee}} will evolve into a {{p|Vaporeon}}, but this should probably be double-checked. [[User:Tk3141|Tk3141]] 20:52, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Ive heard that if you win both battles, lose both battles, or lose one and win one, the outcome will be different. But im not that far in the game so I don't know the specific outcomes. --[[User:Supermon|Supermon]] 21:07, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
:It's explained in more detail [[Blue (game)/Yellow|here]]. Basically the results of the first two possible battles are summed. Two wins = Jolteon. One win and one loss/skip = Flareon. Two losses/One loss one skip = Vaporeon. [[User:Werdnae|Werdnae]] [[User talk:Werdnae|(talk)]] 03:54, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

== Lyra/Khoury ==

Is it confirmed that Lyra and Khoury received their starters from Professor Elm or is it speculation? [[User:Duke R|'''|) u |( e''']] [[User talk:Duke R|'''®''']] 16:06, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

== Mystery Dungeon and Ranger starters ==

I think we need to move the starters of Mystery Dungeon to Player character, because thats basically what they are, people you can play as. Also, the Ranger Pokemon should be removed because we already have the Partner Pokemon page, which contains the same information. [[User:Iml908|Iml908]] ([[User talk:Iml908|talk]]) 20:37, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
:I agree with both. [[User:Duke R|'''|) u |( e''']] [[User talk:Duke R|'''®''']] 21:24, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
::I think that they should still be linked with {{template|main}}. Also, Rumble is in the same situation as PMD. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 05:10, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

== New Trivia (yeah, I know it's a little big already) ==

(First time, forgive me if I screw this up horribly)

Since Pikachu knows Thundershock, Yellow is the only main series game in which the player's starter pokemon begins play with a STAB move. Incidentally, the Rival's starter also has a STAB move, as Eevee knows tackle and is of the normal-type.

There's probably a better way of wording this. but I thought it was neat.
22:26, 20 November 2012 (UTC)HH

== Definition of starter Pokémon ==

I've always thought of starter Pokémon as meaning the sets of three Pokémon that are given by the professor, not merely a Trainer's first Pokémon. I don't mind including Pikachu and Eevee, ''that'' much (although I'm still uncertain about them), adding Marill and Ralts, and calling things like [[Growlie]] "starter Pokémon" just seems wrong to me. If people really want to list Trainer's first Pokémon, then I think that page should be at {{redlink|first Pokémon}}; however, IMO starter Pokémon should refer only to Bulbasaur, Charmander, Bulbasaur, Chikorita, Cyndaquil, Totodile, Treecko, Torchic, Mudkip, Turtwig, Chimchar, Piplup, Snivy, Tepig, Oshawott, and maybe Pikachu and Eevee if you really want. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 08:42, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
:Personally, I feel it's the Pokémon someone ''starts'' with. [[Typhlosion (Pokémon)|★]][[User:Jo The Marten|Jo the Marten]][[Flygon (Pokémon)|★]] [[User_Talk:Jo The Marten|ಠ_ಠ]][[Cilan (anime)|♥]] 08:54, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
::I agree with Jo, even though the ones listed by SnorlaxMonster are treated completely different from the other "first Pokémon" from other media. Since this page is huge, maybe splitting into "Starter Pokémon (main series)", "Starter Pokémon (spin-off)", "Starter Pokémon (anime)" and "Starter Pokémon (Adventures)" could be taken into account but is not the best option. [[User:Duke R|'''|) u |( e''']] [[User talk:Duke R|'''®''']] 10:50, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
:::Splitting like that completely ignores the point. The idea is that the Pokémon I listed are a group of Pokémon, while this page just lists the first Pokémon of a bunch of Trainers. If we want to redefine starter Pokémon as "the first Pokémon a Trainer owns" rather than the traditional "the three Pokémon that Trainers can choose from to start their journey" and give the traditional grouping their own name, then while I wouldn't prefer it, it would be better than what we have now. What I'm saying is that we have a distinct group of Pokémon that the fandom have always called "starter Pokémon", and this page seems to have merged that group with everyone's first Pokémon. So regardless of what you want to call "starter Pokémon", the traditional starter Pokémon need a separate page from people's first Pokémon. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 06:14, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
::::For what it's worth, I would define the starter pokemon as the sets of three plus Pikachu and Eevee. We categorize pokemon beyond their obvious classification by their secondary characteristics. Legendary Pokemon, other than those explicitly called out as such, are typically unique pokemon within the games that may or may not have a defining role in the story- even beginning trainers have a pretty good idea what you're talking about when you say "legendary". Pseudo-Legendaries bear some explanation, but fall within obviously recognizable parameters- 600 base stats, typically a double weakness to something, general badassedness, etc. The "starters" of the main series of games are typically in line in terms of stats and evolutions without significant variation- It would not surprise me if next generation we had to call out Charizard and Typhlosion as the exceptions to the "Fire/Fighting Rule". Spinoff series games should at best get their own page and at worst be merely mentioned on their own page. "Games" that are effectively pokedexes shouldn't be listed at all outside the article affirming their existence, as there is no meaningful way to interact with them. Eevee and Pikachu get to be the exceptions because they ''are'' the exceptions- the only main series game not to play by their own rules. You might not even list Eevee, as it's not technically an option for the trainer- It's not a "starter" pokemon, it's a "rival" pokemon.[[User:TheHateHat|TheHateHat]] ([[User talk:TheHateHat|talk]]) 04:36, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
:::::I going to say that there needs to be a distinction between "starter" and "first". For example, in the TCG a "starter set" is a set intended for people just starting to learn the TCG. However, it does not have to be their first TCG set, and their first TCG set is not necessarily a "starter set". A "starter Pokémon" is a Pokémon given to Trainers when they begin their journey to get them started. Therefore, instances like Wally's Ralts are not starter Pokémon; it is his first Pokémon, and if people want that to have a page that's fine, but they shouldn't be here. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 15:33, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::I second that. The eighteen starter Pokémon from main series games must have an article of their own, they are a group of distinct Pokémon, always treated specially in every medium of the Pokémon franchise. [[User:Duke R|'''|) u |( e''']] [[User talk:Duke R|'''®''']] 04:27, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

== Eevee in Yellow ==

It seems strange to me that Eevee should be included as a starter Pokemon in Yellow on the bit at the bottom of pages about specific starter Pokemon. (Sorry don't know the correct technical term.) The player cannot start with Eevee. If the starter Pokemon of NPCs qualify for this definition of starter Pokemon then surely every known starter Pokemon for NPCs should be added to both of these sections in order to be logically consistent? If it is just because Blue is the rival of this game that his starter is notable why aren't the starters of Wally and Ethan/Lyra as NPCs? I understand their inclusion in the article but I don't understand how Blue's Eevee is any more notable than the starters of those two trainers, particularly not to the degree that it gets a mention at the bottom of the page when the others don't. [[User:Gastly's Mama|Gastly's Mama]] ([[User talk:Gastly's Mama|talk]]) 17:55, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
:Eevee was supposed to be player's starter, but Blue snatched it. [[User:Marked +-+-+|Marked +-+-+]] ([[User talk:Marked +-+-+|talk]]) 18:46, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
::But it is still not an option for the player to get it, which is more the point I feel. It is still not an option to start with. No matter what the storyline claims, the player was never "supposed" to get Eevee. Also, I'm not even sure the storyline DOES claim that.[[User:Gastly's Mama|Gastly's Mama]] ([[User talk:Gastly's Mama|talk]]) 14:07, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
:::Any Pokémon given by the Professor is a starter Pokémon, imo.--[[User:Force Fire|'''F'''orce]][[User talk:Force Fire|'''F'''ire]] 14:16, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

== Fire Starter Trivia ==

Should it be added that there's a trend that all of the fire starters are all members of the Chinese Zodiac? There's been dragon (the Charmander line), rat (Cyndaquil being the fire '''mouse''' pokemon), rooster (the Torchic line), monkey (the Chimchar line), pig (the Tepig line), and just recently, dog (Fennekin being a fox). --[[User:GodzillaMaster|GodzillaMaster]] ([[User talk:GodzillaMaster|talk]]) 20:12, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
:I say this is more opinion than fact. Yes, Cyndaquil is the Fire Mouse Pokémon but it isn't based on a mouse (or a rat). Fennekin, while based of a species of canines, isn't a dog. Though I agree with the others. So you could say I'm neutral/indifferent on this trivia.--[[User:Force Fire|'''F'''orce]][[User talk:Force Fire|'''F'''ire]] 02:31, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
:Yes, I know that Cyndaquil isn't based on an actual mouse, but the species name still counts and fox should be close enough to dog to count. --[[User:GodzillaMaster|GodzillaMaster]] ([[User talk:GodzillaMaster|talk]]) 03:30, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

== Shininess ==

Is it possible that received starter in main series will be shiny?
[[User:SFtheGreat|SFtheGreat]] ([[User talk:SFtheGreat|talk]]) 19:53, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
: Yes, it's the same probability as if you were to catch them in the wild (approximately 1/8192). [[User:ChiefbozX|ChiefbozX]] ([[User talk:ChiefbozX|talk]]) 20:44, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

== Kanto Starters for X and Y ==

"Soon afterwards, Professor Sycamore will give the player a choice between one of the classic Kanto starter Pokémon, whom, upon reaching their final stages, will have access to Mega Evolved forms, given the prequisite Mega Stone."

This is more speculation than factual. We do not meet Professor Sycamore until Lumoise City. This was stated in the preview clips when he was released as well as stated on the main web site. Lumoise City is after the first Gym so the player has a good bit of play time before they ever meet Professor Sycamore in Lumoise. We also have not been given any information as to whether or not the Kanto Starters are Post Game hand outs like all other Non-Regional Starters are like in Pokemon Emerald and forward. Should probably wait for more information before saying we get two starters in the game since this has the makings of being post-game hand outs like they always end up. [[User:XanderO|XanderO]] ([[User talk:XanderO|talk]]) 14:08, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
:While I do believe we should wait till we have more information on this, I thought we had more reason to believe that the Kanto starters weren't post-game hand outs. First of all, I don't believe they revealed post-game starters before during pre-release. And second, I believe in the Pokémon Direct, the man asked Masuda if there was going to be anything different about this game. Masuda then answered by talking about Sycamore giving out one of the Kanto starters. If it was post-game, that wouldn't be different from previous games at all. They even showed that picture with the three Kalos starters and the three Kanto starters. I think that the implication is that we're supposed to have 2 starters early on this time around. [[User:Pocketfanmk|Pocketfanmk]] ([[User talk:Pocketfanmk|talk]]) 17:32, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

::If you actually watched the Pokémon Direct, you would have heard that you get both starters near the beginning of the game. ☆[[User:Solar Dragon|The]] [[User talk:Solar Dragon|Solar]] [[Special:Contributions/Solar Dragon|Dragon]]☆ 17:44, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
::::''"In the past Pokémon games, the story began when the Pokémon Professor let you choose one of three Pokémon. However, in Pokémon X and Y your first partner Pokémon; Chespin, Fennekin, or Froakie; won't be given to you from the Professor but by your friend instead. Then you'll receive a different Pokémon from the Professor later on. What you get from the Professor is one of the partner Pokémon from the original Pokémon Red and Pokémon Blue."'' 11:45 - 12:30
:::No where does it say you get both at the beginning of the game. Not to mention the Professor isn't even in the starting town. We can't say for sure when you'll officially meet the Professor in-game. Even if the city itself is post-first gym, he might not be there. [[Typhlosion (Pokémon)|★]][[User:Jo The Marten|Jo the Marten]][[Flygon (Pokémon)|★]] [[User_Talk:Jo The Marten|ಠ_ಠ]][[Cilan (anime)|♥]] 19:01, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

== XY? ==

Would you say the xy starters are not official starters because a professor doesn't give them to you? So they may not be deemed good enough for starter trainers? [[User:Prinben|Prinben]] ([[User talk:Prinben|talk]]) 13:17, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
:A starter Pokemon is a Pokemon a beginning Trainer starts their journey with. XY is clearly indicating that it doesn't matter where you get them from, as long as you start with it, it's a starter. [[User:Ataro|Ataro]] ([[User talk:Ataro|talk]]) 13:42, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

==Friend Safari==

Do the kanto starter first stage evos in the Friend Safari count as legitimately obtaining all three starter pokemon from a previous game? [[User:Yveltal0003|Yveltal0003]] ([[User talk:Yveltal0003|talk]]) 19:45, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

== Tierno and Trevor ==

Should their starters in XY be included? They don't pick from the three but they both only have two Pokemon when you first have a double battle with them and Serena. I think one of them's starter was Pikachu but I can't remember who. [[User:Nutter Butter|Nutter Butter]] ([[User talk:Nutter Butter|talk]]) 21:03, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
:I don't think we can confirm what their actual Starter Pokémon are or when they got them, seeming they could of switched them before you battle them. Unless its explicitly stated, I think we should just say that there could be other options for Starter Pokémon than those given, although that's just my opinion on the matter. --[[User:S2daam|--samm :D]] 21:19, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

== Turn sprites into artwork ==

Can anyone turn sprites into artwork because we're at Generation VI? Thank you! [[User:Cinday123|Cinday123]] ([[User talk:Cinday123|talk]]) 07:02, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

== Split ==

SnorlaxMonster suggested this {{DL|Talk:Starter Pokémon|Definition of starter Pokémon|in an above section}}, but nothing came of it, so I'm slapping on the split template so that hopefully, even if no consensus comes of discussion, it'll go to the staff on [http://bmgf.bulbagarden.net/f195/candidates-merging-moving-mainspacing-splitting-discussion-thread-114138/ the forum thread]. I propose that the traditional Grass/Fire/Water trios comprise an article, and all other Pokémon that Trainers in various media start with comprise another. I suggest ''Starter Pokémon'' and ''First Pokémon'', respectively, but any number of other names are also possible. The main thing is that the Grass/Fire/Water trios differ significantly from starting Pokémon in side games, the anime, the manga, etc. The two sets need to be treated separately.

Whether to include the Pikachu and Eevee from Yellow is a bone of contention that I'd prefer not to overshadow this, but since it's relevant, I will give my opinion on it. Under no circumstances should Eevee be included, because it's the rival's, not the players. (Same conditions as Marill and Ralts.) Pikachu's more of a gray area, but it doesn't fill the same role statistically or in availability in any other game, so I feel it also doesn't belong with the Grass/Fire/Water trios despite being a starting Pokémon for the player in the main series.[[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 06:05, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
:The only issue I have with this is that there is still the issue of Orre and Pokétopia, though it sounds like under the proposal it would be a First Pokémon over a Starter Pokémon. My two cents is that there is a bit of gray area currently, though they are called "the big three" for Japanese players. --[[User:Super goku|Super goku]] ([[User talk:Super goku|talk]]) 07:32, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
::If a "starter Pokemon" is something you get to choose, then none of Orre, Poketopia, or Yellow will count. Your "first Pokemon" is just something you're saddled with, then. I don't have a big problem with that sort of definition. As things stand, though, Poketopia's inclusion seems pretty dumb, to me. I like Colo and XD counting, because those actually have stories (like the main games) besides connecting with main games; but it doesn't seem that PBR has a story. It just seems like a glorified Pokemon Stadium. I'm not a fan of it "counting", period, whether for "starters" (of whatever definition) or "firsts" (I think). [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 15:47, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
::P.S.: Oh, one can argue, though, that with XD's Eevee, you get your "choice" when you choose who to evolve Eevee into. And that at least includes Water and Fire (and then some), if not Grass. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 15:49, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
:::I feel as though "starter Pokémon" should refer only to the generation Grass-Fire-Water trios. I can accept Pikachu and Eevee under some interpretations, but I really don't think they count. "Starter Pokémon" is an official term, the problem is that it's difficult to find it actually defined (but I don't believe I've ever seen it used to describe Pikachu or Eevee); perhaps if somewhere the "Kanto starter Pokémon" is used to refer to Bulbasaur, Charmander, Squirtle, that could count as excluding Pikachu and Eevee from being starters. Regardless, I think the generational elemental trios clearly share commonalities that Eevee and Pikachu do not. I don't even know if "first Pokémon" deserves a page, but I certainly think that info does not belong here. (Also, thanks for reviving my suggestion. I have a bunch that I've put forward in many places that even I've forgotten about, so it's always nice to see someone else take interest.) --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 16:17, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
::::While I feel like "Starter Pokémon" usually refers to the generation Grass-Fire-Water trios, I don't feel like special cases like Pikachu should be excluded/ignored (especially since Pokémon Yellow was a main series game). I don't agree with the rival's Pokémon being listed though, because they're never given to the player and thus technically not Starter Pokémon for us. It really depends how we're defining starter Pokémon, because if we're describing them as "First Pokémon, distributed or given without having to catch them, usually by a Professor" then Pikachu fits in that definition. Even if we decide to remove Pikachu and co. from the page, I'd at least like to see Pikachu listed somewhere. '''''[[User:Pokemaster97|--Pokemaster]][[User talk:Pokemaster97|97]]''''' 20:24, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

::I find splitting Starter Pokémon from First Pokémon redundant. Not only do they have similar meanings, your starters are your first Pokémon, which is why they are called starters in the first place. Pikachu was your starter in Yellow despite not being a Fire, Water, or Grass type Pokémon. I don't get why we'd need to split the official and unofficial starters. If this proposal succeeds, I would start a new proposal to merge them. I strongly oppose the split. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 18:43, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

:::I agree. A starter Pokémon is not defined by type. That's just stupid. A starter Pokémon is a Pokémon that you START with. That doesn't mean it has to be a grass/fire/water at all! And, that also means that the rival's Eevee, Marill, or Ralts all count as well. It is the Pokémon that they START with. It's a fact. Deal with it. [[User:Nutter Butter|Nutter Butter]] ([[User talk:Nutter Butter|talk]]) 16:50, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
::::Starter Pokémon are called such because they are are started with. It is never stated that other Pokémon aren't starters, because they technically are. ''Start''er Pokémon. EDIT: If they are split, I think that everything but what the player starts with in the main series should be on starter, everything else on first. [[User:Pikachu Bros.|Pikachu Bros.]] ([[User talk:Pikachu Bros.|talk]]) 18:27, 13 March 2014 (UTC), edit time 18:28, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::In official materials, "starter Pokémon" always seems to be used to refer to the Grass-Fire-Water trios. [http://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-episodes/chronicles-14-journey-to-the-starting-line/] [http://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-episodes/07_31-six-pack-attack/] [http://www.pokemonxy.com/en-gb/pokemon/starters/] [http://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-episodes/10_01-following-a-maidens-voyage/] [http://www.pokemonblackwhite.com/pokemon-black-and-white-1/en-us/pokemon/] [http://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-episodes/16_12-new-placesfamiliar-faces/] [http://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-episodes/08_40-the-right-place-and-the-right-mime/] [http://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-video-games/super-smash-bros-brawl/] [http://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-video-games/pokemon-emerald-version/] [http://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-tcg/black-white/explore-and-watch/] [http://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-tcg/black-white/black-white-cards]. I get that people would like the term to also refer to any Pokémon that any character has as their first Pokémon, but that is simply unsupported. The Grass-Fire-Water trios are clearly a distinct group, and they need a specific name to refer to them; officially, this has always been "starter Pokémon", which has also excluded any other Pokémon a character may have as their first Pokémon. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 09:44, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

== Why is Marill on this page? ==

Why is Marill on the page? [[User:Yamitora1|Yamitora1]] ([[User talk:Yamitora1|talk]]) 23:57, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
:Because {{ga|Lyra}}/{{ga|Ethan}} has it. [[User:Pikachu Bros.|Pikachu Bros.]] ([[User talk:Pikachu Bros.|talk]]) 00:05, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
::Oh I see now, I miss read the entry.[[User:Yamitora1|Yamitora1]] ([[User talk:Yamitora1|talk]]) 00:19, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
:::Just because Ethan/Lyra has it does not make it a starter IMO. same with Wally's Ralts. we might need to re-discuss this -[[User:Pokeant|Pokeant]] ([[User talk:Pokeant|talk]]) 08:36, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

== Trivia (Could be added to a trivia point speaking of egg group) ==

................. and Treecko and Charmander are the only starter pokemon to belonging to part dragon egg group.

Talk:Pseudo-legendary Pokémon/Archive 1

2014-04-27T12:59:30Z

Tgage: /* Does three stage evolution really matters? */ new section

==What???==
What??? Do we seriously need this??? --{{Ani|155}}{{Ani|476}}'''[[User:Theryguy512|Theryguy]][[User:Theryguy512/Contribution Page|5]][[User:Theryguy512/Mission Page|1]][[User:Theryguy512/Sandbox|2]]'''{{Ani|473}} 20:06, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
:im not going to say its unnessecary, but "Psuedo-legendary" sounds really stupid. so, i think it should either be reworked or deleted. maybe just add to each pokemon's trivia section that they are near legendary or somthing. '''[[User:MAGNEDETH|MAGNEDETH]][[User talk:MAGNEDETH|TA]][[User:MAGNEDETH/Riddles|RID]][[User:MAGNEDETH/new evolutions|NE]][[User:MAGNEDETH/do over|DO]][[User:MAGNEDETH/Pokemon teams|PT]]''' 20:12, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
:I say reworked[[User:Pokemaniac102|'''''<big>P</big>o<big>k</big>e''''']][[User talk:Pokemaniac102|'''''<big>m</big>a<big>n</big>i<big>a</big>c''''']][[User:Pokemaniac102/Riddle|'''''<big>1</big>''''']][[User talk:Pokemaniac102/Riddle|'''''0''''']][[User:Pokemaniac102/Fanfic|'''''<big>2</big>''''']][[User:Pokemaniac102/Picto|'''''♪]][[User talk:Pokemaniac102/Picto|<big>♫</big>''''']] 20:16, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

:::Needs moar reworking. I'll add the cleanup sign.. [[User:Tina|Tina]] [[Special:Contributions/Tina|δ]][[User talk:Tina|♫]] 20:21, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

::::what should they be called then? or do yall think the anme is OK? '''[[User:MAGNEDETH|MAGNEDETH]][[User talk:MAGNEDETH|TA]][[User:MAGNEDETH/Riddles|RID]][[User:MAGNEDETH/new evolutions|NE]][[User:MAGNEDETH/do over|DO]][[User:MAGNEDETH/Pokemon teams|PT]]''' 20:36, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
:::::What'ch ya tryin' to say huh!?[[User:Pokemaniac102|'''''<big>P</big>o<big>k</big>e''''']][[User talk:Pokemaniac102|'''''<big>m</big>a<big>n</big>i<big>a</big>c''''']][[User:Pokemaniac102/Riddle|'''''<big>1</big>''''']][[User talk:Pokemaniac102/Riddle|'''''0''''']][[User:Pokemaniac102/Fanfic|'''''<big>2</big>''''']][[User:Pokemaniac102/Picto|'''''♪]][[User talk:Pokemaniac102/Picto|<big>♫</big>''''']] 20:38, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

:::::::Seems to me that this would an article if where was a "Competitive Battling Project" thing. I do believe I heard the term "Pseudo-legendary" at least once in some places such as Smogon... [[User:Mudkipchan|Mudkipchan]]

::::::::I heard it before. But that was when it was refering to the Groudon in jirachi movie

:::::::::They are all generally recognised as a set of unique pokemon with a few exceptions to each. (e.g. Garchomp's national pokedex number). However, the fan-term 'pseudo-legendary' in itself only actually refers to their final stages. (Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamence, Metagross, Garchomp). Isn't this a bit inaccurate? --[[User:Hyurnat4|Hyurnat4]] 08:44, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

::::::::::Well in the anime, Dratini was specifically called a legendary pokemon in [[EP035|Legend of Dratini]] [[User:Felinoel|felinoel]] 20:35, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

== Flygon? ==

I thought only base 600s were psudeo legendary. Why is flygon here? [[User:The Placebo Effect|The Placebo Effect]] 02:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
:I'm not too sure either. o__O; [[User:Tina|Tina]] [[Special:Contributions/Tina|δ]][[User talk:Tina|♫]] 02:53, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
::It's a three-stage part-dragon type that can only be found in its first form. [[User:Shiny Noctowl|S<big>h</big>i<big>n</big>y]] [[User talk:Shiny Noctowl|<big>N</big>o<big>c</big>t<big>o</big>w<big>l</big>]]  02:54, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
:::i dont think Flygon should be there, its just not rediculous enough '''[[User:MAGNEDETH|MAG]][[User:MAGNEDETH#Interesting Stuff|NE]][[User talk:MAGNEDETH|DETH]]''' 02:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

== Dragonair? ==

CAn't you find wild dragonair in more than 1 game? [[User:The Placebo Effect|The Placebo Effect]] 03:19, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, FRLGRBYDP, But in DP you can find Pokéradar-ed Vibrava. So? [[User:Midnight Celtic|Midnight Celtic]] 03:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

:the fact of the matter is that Dragonite is def a psuedo-leg. '''[[User:MAGNEDETH|MAG]][[User:MAGNEDETH#Interesting Stuff|NE]][[User talk:MAGNEDETH|DETH]]''' 03:24, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. [[User:Midnight Celtic|Midnight Celtic]] 03:25, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

== Aggron ==

What about Aggron? [[User:Kpokefan|K]][[User talk:Kpokefan|P]][[User:Kpokefan/Missions|F]] 04:37, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
:Aggron's UU, I believe. UU Pokémon wouldn't be psuedolegendary if they were in UU. :p [[User:Tina|Tina]] [[Special:Contributions/Tina|δ]][[User talk:Tina|♫]] 04:39, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
::may i ask what UU is? '''[[User:MAGNEDETH|MAG]][[User:MAGNEDETH#Interesting Stuff|NE]][[User talk:MAGNEDETH|DETH]]''' 04:41, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
:::I think it means Under-used, as in List of Pokémon by Tier, which is fan-made[[User:Pokemaniac102|Poke]][[User talk:Pokemaniac102|Maniac]][[Special:Contributions/Pokemaniac102|102]] 04:45, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
::::Yep, under-used. It's fanmade. As is the term pseudolegendary. [[User:Tina|Tina]] [[Special:Contributions/Tina|δ]][[User talk:Tina|♫]] 04:46, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
:::::right, well, Aggron doesnt fit the bill because Lairon can be caught in Victory road, and apparently, thats against the rules...or somthing... '''[[User:MAGNEDETH|MAG]][[User:MAGNEDETH#Interesting Stuff|NE]][[User talk:MAGNEDETH|DETH]]''' 04:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
::::::True.[[User:Pokemaniac102|Poke]][[User talk:Pokemaniac102|Maniac]][[Special:Contributions/Pokemaniac102|102]] 04:49, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Wait a minute, you can catch Dragonair in the wild, so how is Lairon against the rules? [[Image:491.png|45px 45px]][[User:Kpokefan|'''K''']][[User talk:Kpokefan|'''P''']][[User:Kpokefan/Missions|'''F''']] 02:45, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
::::::::Because Aggron's base stats don't total 600. - [[User:Nebula|Nebula]] 15:45, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::The true defintion of pseudo-legendary is a bst of 600 and a three-stage evolutionary line. Things like Dragonair and gabite being caught in the wild are merely trivial. As is the fact they all have one immunity etc. Aggron, Flygon and Kingdra are NOT pseudo-legendaries and never will be. P-Ls do not have to be dragon-type or dragonoid. --[[User:Hyurnat4|Hyurnat4]] 08:50, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

== Real definition for psuedo-legendary ==

Isn't it a BST of 600? [[User:The Placebo Effect|The Placebo Effect]] 13:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

== Pseudo-legendary --> Powerhouse ==

It seems to me that everyone who commented on this page, other than Shiny Noctowl, was dumbfounded as to the article's title and definition therein. For pages dealing with fanon terminology, this is a good sign that something has been done '''wrong'''; fanon terms are ''necessarily'' known to a large number of fans, as opposed to a select few, or in this case - no more than one.

Furthemore, the page (prior to my editing it) included mentions of Pokémon with legendary characteristics, despite their having nothing to do with the suggested definiton of pseudo-legendary. It was also a mere copy-and-paste of the corresponding section on the [[Legendary]] page. Now, as for the definition itself, it should be crystal-clear that the powerhouses, as defined by myself, are ''distinct'' in their categorization from any other Pokémon ({{p|Flygon}}, for the sake of discussion). Simply put, they are non-legendary Pokémon whose total base stats is 600, which is a great deal higher than Flygon's 520 (see the trivia paragraph for clarification on {{p|Slaking}}). Besides, what makes Flygon any more special than {{p|Aggron}}, {{p|Walrein}} and the 7 fully-evolved, two-typed starters? All of these match the definition used by Shiny Noctowl. I do hope that competitive usage is not the reason, because {{p|Swampert}} and {{p|Infernape}} clearly outweigh Flygon in that regard.

It amazes me that everyone assumed that the definition was acceptable simply because someone had put it forth. Bulbapedia encourages critical thinking and sets virtually no limits on the users' capacity to edit existing pages. Why was I the only one who had the fortitude to replace the previous definition with one that is actually used by the fandom? --[[User:Unown Lord|Unown Lord]] 16:47, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
:Mudkipchan apparently heard pseudo-legendary on Smogon, and I've heard pseudo-legendary on several websites, so I think it should be moved back. I agree, though, that the definition needed some work. But why remove Flygon? Its stats are slightly lower, but base stats shouldn't be included in the definition. Other than base stats, Flygon is in every way a pseudo-legendary. [[User:Shiny Noctowl|S<big>h</big>i<big>n</big>y]] [[User talk:Shiny Noctowl|<big>N</big>o<big>c</big>t<big>o</big>w<big>l</big>]]  13:57, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

::You can see my comments on the article's name further below. Now, the explanation for my excluding Flygon should be quite obvious from the pieces of trivia; Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamence, Metagross and Garchomp have more in common than what you listed in your definition, and in fact, they have more in common than just my addition to that definition (a total base stats of 600). Flygon does not share that common denominator; what it does share with the aforementioned five is also shared by ''at the very least'' Walrein and Aggron, who are part of a three-stage line, have two types, require nearly as much experience to reach their form, and have an even higher total of base stats (530). If the only reason for which you included Flygon but excluded those two is that you thought only Flygon was available strictly in its first form, then you thought wrong: In Generation III Sealeo and Walrein are also not available in the wild; in Generation IV both Vibrava and Sealeo are available (incidentally, Lairon is not).

::But all of that is irrelevant, since neither Flygon nor Walrein (nor Aggron, for that matter) has enough in common with the powerhouses/pseudo-legendaries so as to be added to the group. It is enough to require a total base stats of 600 to limit the group to the five relevant ones (a respectable addition in and of itself), but again, their common denominator is even greater than that. Look at the trivia and see it for yourself. --[[User:Unown Lord|Unown Lord]] 13:55, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Shiny, Pseudo-Legendary makes more sense. I.E. My Snorlax is a powerhouse, but it isn't a pseudo-legendary. My Flygon is not my powerhouse, yet it is a pseudo-legendary. Catch my drift? [[User:Midnight Celtic|Midnight Celtic]] 15:28, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
:Psudo legendary should be used. But the only pokemon that should meet this criteria are those 3 stage evos with a base stat of 600. Slaking is questionable, but I would say no to it, as well as flygon. [[User:The Placebo Effect|The Placebo Effect]] 01:08, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

::I'm with {{u|Unown Lord}}. Take it or leave it. -[[User:Politoed666|ニョロトノ]][[User talk:Politoed666|''666'']] 03:29, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

:::i agree with Placebo, though i think Slaking might be in. but not Flygon. '''[[User:MAGNEDETH|MAG]][[User:MAGNEDETH#Interesting Stuff|NE]][[User talk:MAGNEDETH|DETH]]''' 03:31, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I think Midnight Celtic makes a good point, powerhouse can mean ANY strong Pokémon, where as Psuedo-legendary makes a clear point. [[User:GlinnMgraw|Glinn]] 03:37, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

:Incorrect. It depends on the definition, not the connotation that goes along with the given word(s). -[[User:Politoed666|ニョロトノ]][[User talk:Politoed666|''666'']] 03:39, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

What's the point in a defenition if it doesn't explain clearly the subject? [[User:GlinnMgraw|Glinn]] 03:44, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

absolutly, my old car was nicknamed "the powerhouse" but it was definatly not a pokemon! that being said, "powerhouse" is a general term, it sounds more like a metagame term than a true definition. i could load a powerful pokemon with powerful attacks, and ive got a powerhouse, but a psuedo-legendary means its special in some way, and what you are trying to appeal here is to somone whos never jheard the term before, and they will almost understand what psuedo-legendary just by the sound, where as a powerhouse requires an explanation. '''[[User:MAGNEDETH|MAG]][[User:MAGNEDETH#Interesting Stuff|NE]][[User talk:MAGNEDETH|DETH]]''' 04:00, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
:I agree, powerhouse is too broad a term for these Pokémon. Pseudo-legendary fits the bill better. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]{{ani|155|Fire echy}}[[User:TTEchidna/GSDS|GSDS!]]''' 05:57, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

::First of all, my ''true'' gripe was with the contents of the article; redirecting the article to a new title was primarily symbolic of the reshifting of its underlying ideas. However, I would like to point out the irony in the statement that powerhouse is too broad a term spanning just about every overused Pokémon - the same can be said of pseudo-legendary, as evidenced by the fact that this article originally contained a separate list of Pokémon with legendary characteristics!

::Furthermore, I personally feel that ''pseudo-legendary'' should be used to describe only two Pokémon that are not even mentioned in the article: {{p|Unown}} and {{p|Phione}}. ''Legendary'' alludes to mystery and nature or universe-controlling abilities; this article deals with battle prowess, for which legendaries are certainly well known, but it takes second place to their aura. Besides, some legendaries are not as battle-competent as the pseudo-legendaries/powerhouses in the article - practically all tweleve members of the legendary trios, and arguably some others. This comparison holds in base stats (the legendary trio all have a total of 580, which is lower than 600), but even an in-depth comparison on a competitive level leads to the same conclusion, at least generally. Therefore, is it justified to attach the name ''pseudo-legendary'' to a definition that highlights the battle prowess of Pokémon that are actually stronger than some legendaries? On the other hand, Unown and Phione are indeed pseudo-legendary if the term is taken to mean a Pokémon whose aura is associated with a true legendary ({{p|Suicune}} in Unown's case and {{p|Manaphy}} in Phione's).

::But I digress, as I do agree that if ''pseudo-legendary'' is more frequently used by the fandom to describe the group in question, then it should be used for the purposes of discussing a fanon term.

::One last thing - I appreciate Politoed666's token of solidarity. I don't mind reversions to my own edits, especially when done by another sysop, but it isn't my idea of showing respect; it would have been better to wait a bit longer in case I had arguments to present. I only wonder why the same level of urgency was not taken to revise the contents of the article in its original format, when it obviously needed re-working. --[[User:Unown Lord|Unown Lord]] 13:55, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with certain points made by Unown Lord. Perhaps the overall issue with the term "pseudo-legendary" is the usage of "legendary." There are Pokémon that are "legendary" which do have certain exclusive characteristics, and applying the term to another group has its drawbacks. While the term may certain have specific applications to the pseudo-legendary Pokémon it is difficult to draw a completely defined line, contrary to the case with legendary Pokémon. The debate over which Pokémon "qualify" has no feasible ending point, as fans will always stick to their opinion concerning which ones "deserve" to be included. Sure, we have limits on Bulbapedia but in spite of this fact, there is still such an issue, as we can see from this very page. Honestly, I have no problem with the term, despite how vague it is and the supposed difficulty adhering to its guidelines. My wife on the other hand, disagrees with its usage for many of the reasons I mention. [[User:Deviant Audio|Deviant Audio]] 16:01, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

== Title Trouble ==

Uhh, guys, the title says Pseudo-legendary but the article is about powerhouses... --[[User:Manga-in-a-bottle|Manga-in-a-bottle]] 06:01, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
:It's what I was in the middle of fixing, then a million edit conflicts come up. Argh. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]{{ani|155|Fire echy}}[[User:TTEchidna/GSDS|GSDS!]]''' 06:09, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
::Oh... My bad.[[User:Pokemaniac102|Poke]][[User talk:Pokemaniac102|Maniac]][[Special:Contributions/Pokemaniac102|102]] 06:12, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I tried editing it, but then edit-conflicts. Why were you doing one at a time? I could have done it in 30 seconds. :| [[User:GlinnMgraw|Glinn]] 06:12, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
:There were a lot. And I wanted to get some in before there was in edit conflict[[User:Pokemaniac102|Poke]][[User talk:Pokemaniac102|Maniac]][[Special:Contributions/Pokemaniac102|102]] 06:14, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
::hows about we make a note the page about how some people call it "powerhouse" '''[[User:MAGNEDETH|MAG]][[User:MAGNEDETH#Interesting Stuff|NE]][[User talk:MAGNEDETH|DETH]]''' 18:52, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
:::Uh Uh Uh I guess.[[User:Pokemaniac102|Poke]][[User talk:Pokemaniac102|Maniac]][[Special:Contributions/Pokemaniac102|102]] 18:55, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

== Arcanine ==
Shouldn't Arcanine be classified as a powerhouse pokemon as well? [[User:Boywonder01|'''Boy''']][[User talk:Boywonder01|'''wonder''']][[Special:Contributions/Boywonder01|'''01''']] 10:05, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
:Powerhouse. Not pseudo-legendary. There's a difference: Porygon-Z's a powerhouse, Alakazam's a powerhouse. Their base stats in Special Attack are higher than the base stats of any other non-legendary's Attack or Special Attack, but they aren't pseudo-legendary. They aren't the final forms of end-of-dex Pokémon, they're just final forms of Pokémon that do really well in Special Attack. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]{{ani|155|Fire echy}}[[User:TTEchidna/GSDS|GSDS!]]''' 10:35, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
:: But the species is called '''legendary''', despite it isn't a legendary, so it is kind of a pseudo..., isn't it? And it has the highest sum of base-stats of all non-legendary under 600... So there would be good reasons to call it a pseudo-legendary. And by the way, if you search for the [[Powerhouse]]-Article you are redirected to this article, so either there is a need for a own article for the fanterm Powerhouse or Arcanine is truly a pseudo. --[[User:Blablubbb|Blablubbb]] 06:58, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

== 600 stat point total a requirement? ==

Doesn't that seem a little subjective? I mean sure they all have that but that doesn't mean a future Pokemon of similar psuedo-legend status will have that total. Plus with these Pokemon it could just be coincidence they all have 600. Having 600 total might have been how it happened for all of them, but I just don't seem it as a ''requirement'' per se. Just that that's how it happened. Toastypk 03:34, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
:Not really. The psuedo-legends were most likely designed so that their stats WOULD total 600. The only likely exception would be Dragonite due to Special Attack/Defence being a single stat in Generation 1, but it was probably reworked to total 600 in Generation 2. It's hardly likely to be coincedence that their base stats all total 600. - [[User:Nebula|Nebula]] 16:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Hmm... well I've never paid attention to stat totals anyway, just relative strengths. Toastypk
::As I said above a base stat total of 600 is a requirement, not a coindidence. It is why they are called pseudo-legendaries, as many legendary pokemon have a bst of 600.--[[User:Hyurnat4|Hyurnat4]] 08:54, 11 November 2009 (UTC)--[[User:Hyurnat4|Hyurnat4]] 08:55, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Is it worth mentioning that Tyranitar, as of gen IV, technically has a total stats of 650?? (Due to its sand stream ability and the fact that Rock types get a x1.5 boost in S.Def in a sandstorm???) I know its not its true "Base" stats as such but even so I feel it should be mentioned [[User:PhantomCX|PhantomCX]] 12:59, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
:::Nebula, the psuedo-legends were not designed so that their stats would total 600, in fact psuedo-legends at all were not designed, it is just a made up term? [[User:Felinoel|felinoel]] 03:16, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

=={{p|Lucario}}==
Couldn't Lucario fit the pseudo-legendary description? [[User:Shadow1337|Shadow1337]] 23:37, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
:how? its nothing like a Pseudo in any way. -- '''[[User:MAGNEDETH|MAG]][[User:MAGNEDETH#Interesting Stuff|NE]][[User talk:MAGNEDETH|DETH]]''' 23:42, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
::Well, for one thing pseudo-legendary ''by definition'' means false legendary. Lucario was once thought to be a legendary and has very similar stats. It even has higher stats than some of the legendaries.[[User:Shadow1337|Shadow1337]] 00:23, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Pseudo-legendary is a term used to refer to any Pokémon that has a three-stage evolution line,
two types, as well as a base stat total of 600.
:::so, does Lucario fit any of those criteria? One. he has two-types. 1/3 doesnt cut it here. -- '''[[User:MAGNEDETH|MAG]][[User:MAGNEDETH#Interesting Stuff|NE]][[User talk:MAGNEDETH|DETH]]''' 00:40, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
::::But if Lucario ever gets an evolution, its evolution could possibly be a pseudo-legendary. <big>[[user:chocolate|Cho]][[user talk:chocolate|col]][[special:contributions/chocolate|ate]]</big> 00:45, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::No, it won't. Riolu is a baby pokemon evolves from happiness, which will likely separate it. Lucario won't get an evolution because it has too varied a moveset and too high stats.--[[User:Hyurnat4|Hyurnat4]] 08:58, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
:::::That's true.[[User:Shadow1337|Shadow1337]] 00:46, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::not that it wont ever happen, but be rational. do you think Lucario will seriously get an evo? rationally, no. therefor, it is not (currently) a Pseudo-legendary. btw Chocolate, id appreciate it if you didnt edit my comments. if i wanted it like that, id have made it like that in the first place. -- '''[[User:MAGNEDETH|MAG]][[User:MAGNEDETH#Interesting Stuff|NE]][[User talk:MAGNEDETH|DETH]]''' 00:55, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::What's more, speculating on whether an evolution of a Pokémon would be pseudo-legendary is hardly a good argument for calling Lucario one. [[User:GlinnMgraw|Glinn]] [[User_talk:GlinnMgraw|Mgraw]] 11:21, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::I consider Lucario a semi-legendary Pokémon. A few others i put in the group are Pokémon like Arcanine, Unown, Rotom, etc. --'''[[User:InuMimi|いぬ]][[User talk:InuMimi|みみ]]''' 23:14, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::they have legendary traits, but they are not legendaries. and far from pseudo-legendaries. -- '''[[User:MAGNEDETH|MAG]][[User:MAGNEDETH#Interesting Stuff|NE]][[User talk:MAGNEDETH|DETH]]''' 23:20, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

::::::::::That's why I call them semi-legendaries; meaning they are kind of legendary. --'''[[User:InuMimi|いぬ]][[User talk:InuMimi|みみ]]''' 23:23, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[Slaking (Pokémon)]] ==
Why is Slaking not a Psuedo? [[User:DragonTamer|DragonTamer]] 04:53, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
:Oohh, It's not dual type, [[User:DragonTamer|DragonTamer]] 04:55, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

== Inbalance ==

Too much trivia? Too little article? Can someone with experience in competitive gameplay edit it so that the trivia is not longer than the actual article? '''[[User:Optimatum|<sc>Θρtιmαtum♏</sc>]][[User talk:Optimatum|Talk]]|[[User:Optimatum/sig/Pikachu|Links]] 12:30, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

== New table ==
'''Here:'''
{| align="center" style="background: #272727; -moz-border-radius: 10px; border: 5px solid #525252"
! colspan="2" style="background:#{{cynthia color light}}; -moz-border-radius-topleft: 5px;" | {{color2|272727|Generation I}}
! colspan="2" style="background:#{{cynthia color light}}" | {{color2|272727|Generation II}}
! colspan="4" style="background:#{{cynthia color light}}" | {{color2|272727|Generation III}}
! colspan="2" style="background:#{{cynthia color light}}; -moz-border-radius-topright: 5px;"| {{color2|272727|Generation IV}}
|- align="center"
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{kanto color light}}" | [[Image:149.png]] '''{{pcolor|Dragonite|{{kanto color dark}}}}'''
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{johto color light}}" | [[Image:248.png]] '''{{pcolor|Tyranitar|{{johto color dark}}}}'''
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{hoenn color light}}" | [[Image:373.png]] '''{{pcolor|Salamence|{{hoenn color dark}}}}'''
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{colo color light}}" | [[Image:376.png]] '''{{pcolor|Metagross|{{colo color dark}}}}'''
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{sinnoh color light}}" | [[Image:445.png]] '''{{pcolor|Garchomp|{{sinnoh color dark}}}}'''
|- align="center" style="font-size: 90%;"
| style="background:#{{dragon color}}" | {{typecolor|Dragon}}
| style="background:#{{flying color}}" | {{typecolor|Flying}}
| style="background:#{{rock color}}" | {{typecolor|Rock}}
| style="background:#{{dark color}}" | {{typecolor|Dark}}
| style="background:#{{dragon color}}" | {{typecolor|Dragon}}
| style="background:#{{flying color}}" | {{typecolor|Flying}}
| style="background:#{{steel color}}" | {{typecolor|Steel}}
| style="background:#{{psychic color}}" | {{typecolor|Psychic}}
| style="background:#{{dragon color}}" | {{typecolor|Dragon}}
| style="background:#{{ground color}}" | {{typecolor|Ground}}
|- align="center"
! colspan="10" align="center" style="background:#{{cynthia color light}}" | {{color|272727|Evolves from}}
|- align="center"
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{kanto color light}}" | [[Image:148.png]] {{pcolor|Dragonair|{{kanto color dark}}}}
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{johto color light}}" | [[Image:247.png]] {{pcolor|Pupitar|{{johto color dark}}}}
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{hoenn color light}}" | [[Image:372.png]] {{pcolor|Shelgon|{{hoenn color dark}}}}
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{colo color light}}" | [[Image:375.png]] {{pcolor|Metang|{{colo color dark}}}}
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{sinnoh color light}}" | [[Image:444.png]] {{pcolor|Gabite|{{sinnoh color dark}}}}
|- align="center" style="font-size: 90%;"
| style="background:#{{dragon color}}" colspan="2" | {{typecolor|Dragon}}
| style="background:#{{rock color}}" | {{typecolor|Rock}}
| style="background:#{{ground color}}" | {{typecolor|Ground}}
| style="background:#{{dragon color}}" colspan="2" | {{typecolor|Dragon}}
| style="background:#{{steel color}}" | {{typecolor|Steel}}
| style="background:#{{psychic color}}" | {{typecolor|Psychic}}
| style="background:#{{dragon color}}" | {{typecolor|Dragon}}
| style="background:#{{ground color}}" | {{typecolor|Ground}}
|- align="center"
! colspan="10" align="center" style="background:#{{cynthia color light}}" | {{color|272727|Evolves from}}
|- align="center"
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{kanto color light}}" | [[Image:147.png]] {{pcolor|Dratini|{{kanto color dark}}}}
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{johto color light}}" | [[Image:246.png]] {{pcolor|Larvitar|{{johto color dark}}}}
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{hoenn color light}}" | [[Image:371.png]] {{pcolor|Bagon|{{hoenn color dark}}}}
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{colo color light}}" | [[Image:374.png]] {{pcolor|Beldum|{{colo color dark}}}}
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{sinnoh color light}}" | [[Image:443.png]] {{pcolor|Gible|{{sinnoh color dark}}}}
|- align="center" style="font-size: 90%;"
| style="background:#{{dragon color}}; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft: 5px;" colspan="2" | {{typecolor|Dragon}}
| style="background:#{{rock color}}" | {{typecolor|Rock}}
| style="background:#{{ground color}}" | {{typecolor|Ground}}
| style="background:#{{dragon color}}" colspan="2" | {{typecolor|Dragon}}
| style="background:#{{steel color}}" | {{typecolor|Steel}}
| style="background:#{{psychic color}}" | {{typecolor|Psychic}}
| style="background:#{{dragon color}}" | {{typecolor|Dragon}}
| style="background:#{{ground color}}; -moz-border-radius-bottomright: 5px;" | {{typecolor|Ground}}
|}
*[[User:Tc26|tc]][[User talk:Tc26|26]]* 03:47, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

== Available only as their first form. ==

The article states that "Most pseudo-legendaries are obtainable in the wild strictly in their first form. However, Dragonair is also obtainable in the wild in most games where Dratini is (all but Pokémon Red, Green and Blue). Likewise, Pupitar is available in the wild in Crystal. Gabite is found in Victory Road in Platinum."

However, with the addition of Platinum, Gabite can be found in the wild. This means that no, only 2 out of the 5 of them are only found in their first form in the wild. I honestly don't think that something like that should be included in the article, since when was 2 out of 5 "most", or even noteworthy? You could say that all 5 of them have the colour blue on them somewhere, but is that noteworthy?

I'd have already removed it, but the page is protected. [[User:Ggled|Ggled]] 22:09, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
:There's no blue on either Dragonite or Larvitar, thus your entire logic is flawed! Good DAY, sir! :P In all seriousness though, you raise a good point. That part of the article definitely needs to be removed. --[[User:Dual|Dual]] 04:41, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
::Maybe he means a pokemon in the line has had the colour blue on them at some point? --[[User:Hyurnat4|Hyurnat4]] 09:01, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

== Kingdra ==

It doesn't fit the 600 total, (540 in case you were wondering) but it's dual type, it has 3 stages in the family, and it's at the end of the Pokedex. Sorry about bringing up another Pokemon [[User:BaconBoy|Corvy]] 12:25, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
:Kingdra isn't a pseudo-legendary. All qualities must be met. —'''darklord[[User talk:The dark lord trombonator|trom]]''' 20:57, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

== Base Stat total trivia ==

On all the pseudo legendaries, there is a trivia entry stating that they have the second highest base stat total behind slaking. It then goes on to say how it's tied with the other pseudo legendaries etc etc.
Wouldn't it make more sense to just not have this? I mean there's already a link to the pseudo legendary page (here) at the top of the page, and it explains here that they all have the same base stat total etc. Just seems redundant to me and pointless trivia. [[User:Derian|[[Derian]]]] 14:23, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== Stats ==

I don't know how you'd do it, but might it be useful to put stats on the final evolutions at some point.--[[User:Hyurnat4|Hyurnat4]] 09:04, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree. There is a lot of talk about stats and it would be nice to scroll up and refer to the stats of each Pokemon, rather then have to do to their individual page and scroll down. :/[[User:Tro|Tro]] 07:38, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

== Question ==

Should the part about 600 stat total be changed to something like "at least 600"? Yes there is nothing like that now, but if in future generations something with 630 total ''does'' show up it would be better to be prepared now then argue about it when something comes up.--[[user:Mtn otter|Mtn otter]] We are the Void 14:13, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
:We'll sort that out when it happens. Bulbapedia deals with the present. Thanks anyway. —'''darklord[[User talk:The dark lord trombonator|trom]]''' 04:42, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
::I highly doubt anyone would complain about whether or not something with above 600 counts or not... [[User:Felinoel|felinoel]] 14:43, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

== Garchomp's location in the pokedex ==

Stated in the characteristics section, it says that Garchomp's evolution line is not next to any notable pokemon. However, I disagree: Before Gible is Spiritomb, a pokemon that is considered semi-legendary by fans, since it can only be caught once under special conditions in the wild. Should we reword that sentence to include this information? {{Unsigned|AuraGaurdian}}

:Please remember to sign your posts with four tildes (~). [[User:Felinoel|felinoel]] 04:56, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

== Ash's Larvitar ==

It mentions in the trivia that Ash had only one member of the pseudo-legendary line, referencing his Gible, but at one point he had a Larvitar. Shouldn't this be mentioned in the article? --~~[[User_talk:AuraGaurdian|Aura]][[Special:Contributions/AuraGaurdian|Gaurdian]] 17:44, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
:Give the source and edit it to two. [[User:Felinoel|felinoel]] 20:23, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
::It's called [[Ash's Larvitar]] by the way. The trivia is actually referencing to his Larvitar but if you wanted to figure out a way of wording it you could say,"Ash is the only main character in the anime to own two different members of a pseudo-legendary family." or something along those lines. –'''[[User talk:MasterKenobi|Master]][[User:MasterKenobi|Kenobi]]''' 20:36, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
:::Gonna step in here quick and bring up that I think the reason why Gible is said to be Ash's only pseudo-legendary was because Larvitar was never technically ''his'', he was just temporarily taking care of it or whatnot. Its article is named as such for the sake of simplicity. [[User:Umeko|梅子]][[User talk:Umeko|❀]][[Special:Contributions/Umeko|✿]] 20:41, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
::::If that is the case then why does its article call it Ash's? Are we going to need to move the article if it wasn't Ash's? [[User:Felinoel|felinoel]] 03:02, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::From my previous comment on the matter:
::::::''Its article is named as such'' [ie. "Ash's Larvitar"] ''for the sake of simplicity''
:::::We can't very well call the article "the Larvitar that Ash took care of for about eight episodes but was never technically owned by him" or something. :P [[User:Umeko|梅子]][[User talk:Umeko|❀]][[Special:Contributions/Umeko|✿]] 15:30, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::::That may be true but it apparently isn't his, the page at least should not have that, Ash's current pokemon thing at the bottom or something [[User:Felinoel|felinoel]] 20:11, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
This discussion would better serve a purpose [[Talk:Ash's_Larvitar#Ash.27s_Larvitar|here]], so I am moving it there

== Addition of Charizard ==
I feel that Charizard is a pseudo-legendary. I think it should be added due to it's immense power. Feel free to respond. [[User:BrianPokemonTrainer|BrianPokemonTrainer]] 00:42, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
:Did.... you even read the article? Charizard does '''not''' fufill any of the requirements. It's not even that strong. ._. ▫▫'''[[User:Tina|ティナ]]'''[[User talk:Tina|♫]][[Special:Contributions/Tina|★]] 00:45, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
::Well... who decided the rules of this '''fluff''' term anyways? [[User:Felinoel|felinoel]] 02:57, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

== Kibago ==

Isn't kibago a Pseudo-legendary--[[User:lilkaykaygal|KayKay]]|[[User talk:Lilkaykaygal|Chat to me!]] 03:01, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Stats don't reach +600. Ononokusu may be faster and stronger than Gyarados, but a pseudo-legendary he is not.--[[User:Black Yin Zekrom|Black Yin Zekrom]] 03:08, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

==Dratini==
Awww, who removed part of my note in the trivia about how in the anime Dratini was specifically stated to be a legendary pokemon? [[User:Felinoel|felinoel]] 03:18, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

:That's like saying Arcanine should by a Pseudo-Legendary because "Legendary Pokemon" is in its title.{{unsigned|Bluekirbystar}}

::No I only said it should be psuedo-legendary because the anime stated it as a legendary? [[User:Felinoel|felinoel]] 14:01, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
:::This page is about the Pseudo-legendary classification used by fans, especially in regards to the metagame. It does NOT refer to Pokémon which are considered legendary in in-game text or other media, despite not having the rarity or strength of typical legendaries. Why can't anyone seem to understand that? --[[User:AndyPKMN|AndyPKMN]] 15:26, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
::::It was just a note for the trivia, trivia rarely is extremely on-topic with the rest of the article, that is why it gets posted in the trivia and not the article itself. [[User:Felinoel|felinoel]] 16:31, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
:::::Wrong. Trivia must be "on topic". You wouldn't add trivia about how Lance's Dragonite in Gen. I knew Barrier here. Similarly, your trivia would belong in the Legendary Pokémon article, or Dratini's article, but not this article. --[[User:AndyPKMN|AndyPKMN]] 16:50, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
::::::Wrong. I said ''extremely'' on-topic, the anime's classification of Dratini's status is ''moderately'' on-topic with a fluff term based on what the fans feel is Dratini's status. I never said trivia could be off-topic, I only said it didn't have to be ''extremely'' on-topic. [[User:Felinoel|felinoel]] 04:21, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

== Metagross is used in Gen V ==

Metagross is used by Lady Caitlin in the Isshu Elite Four rematch. {{unsigned|Bluekirbystar}}

== Ononokus ==

Isn't Ononokus a psuedo-legendary? It isn't near the end of the Pokedex, but then Garchomp isn't either. [[User:Taromon777|'''T a r o m o n''']] 11:33, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
:No base stats of 600 total. End of discussion.--[[User:Dennou Zenshi|でんのう]] ☢ [[User talk:Dennou Zenshi|'''Z'''えんし]] 11:39, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
::Ah, right. I don't normally bother looking at stats... [[User:Taromon777|'''T a r o m o n''']] 08:40, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
::: You should look at stats; as it is one of the best indicators of which species make a group, or are version counterparts.{{unsigned|Eriorguez}}

== Two types really necessary? ==

I'd say the defining feature is the 600 BST. The page, in more than one place, describes the fact that pseudolegendaries have two types as though you couldn't, even in theory, have a pseudolegendary without it, but is that so? Obviously, all the pseudos that currently exist have two types (and we should mention that fact, don't get me wrong), but wouldn't we just adjust our definition if they (hypothetically) introduced a monotype pseudo in the sixth generation? I don't think we should "define" a pseudo as having two types; nor should we list that as one of the reasons Slaking isn't. --[[User:HeroicJay|HeroicJay]] 17:25, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
:Good point, don't two typers have more weaknesses usually? Not a very legendary trait... [[User:Felinoel|felinoel]] 03:43, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

== Ulgamoth ==

This may be shot down, but SURELY Ulgamoth is a pseudo-legendary. It may lack the Base Stats and Second Evolution, but it's clearly intended to be in the same tier. Its final evolution receives the EV yield of a Third-Stage pokemon, it comes right after Sazandorah, just like how Salamence and Metagross are placed next to each other (Garchomp was separated from legendaries by Evolutions from previous gens). It has significant mythology connected to it, and is obtained in peculiar ways, one of which is fashioned like a Legendary Encounter. It evolves at a ridiculously high level. Hell, the concept itself is that of something that would have a cocoon stage, but missed out on it somehow. The 550 Base Stat is peculiar, but surely can be put down to it having Butterfly Dance, an obscenely powerful move. Pretty much everything points it to being a counterpart with Sazandorah as the two pseudo-legendaries of Generation 5. [[User:N-Denizen|N-Denizen]] 23:30, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
:Nope, needs to have the stats and isn't a {{type|Dragon}}. {{p|Haxorus}} isn't considered Pseudo-legendary because of stats and it IS a {{t|Dragon}}. --[[User:Landfish7|'''Land''']][[User talk:Landfish7|'''fish7''']]''' 23:34, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
::{{p|Tyranitar|They don't have to be a Dragon}} {{p|Metagross|to be considered pseudo-legendary}}. But yeah, Ulgamoth has the wrong stats and it only has two stages. --[[Tracey Sketchit|'''ケンジ''']][[User talk:Kenji-girl|'''の''']][[User:Kenji-girl|'''ガール''']] 00:40, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
:::Thanks for the clarification User Kenji-girl. --[[User:Landfish7|'''Land''']][[User talk:Landfish7|'''fish7''']]''' 23:33, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
:I would agree on Volcarona being intended to be something special, but not the same thing as pseudo-legends. It is something new and different, even if similar. [[User:Eriorguez|Eriorguez]] 13:55, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
::The only problem I see then is that it's left in a weird limbo. It's not a "legendary" because it can breed, and despite being a Champion's ace, apparently not a pseudo-legendary. I think it's significant enough to classified as something surely. [[User:N-Denizen|N-Denizen]] 20:12, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
:::I would like to disagree with everyone that opposes Volcarona as a Pseudo-Legendary. Just have a look at nearly every other Bug type that came before it for instance, and you'll notice that ALL tend to have stats below 400 or very rarely reaching 500 or higher. In nearly all games before B/W it was almost like a rule or some sort, or a tradition. Perhaps Volcarona lives up to this tradition even with B/W's upgrade to Bug types. As a Bug type, it would not be able to have as high of stats as other types if it followed this old tradition, so that would explain Volcarona's BST of 550 instead of 600. Another possible explaination is probably just an excuse to make it have a lower BST than Genesect. The big seal to all this is that Alder uses Volcarona as his main Pokemon. Why would it be used as his main if it wasn't a Pseudo-Legendary? Why just have something random instead of a Psuedo-legendary or even a Legendary? It all starts to make sense when you think about it. Volcarona, though having a lower BST than the other Pseudo-Legends, still has the exact same kind of power you'd expect from one due to it's gargantuan stats compared to other Bug types. Even Genesect feels very weak in comparison to Volcarona, as well as giving Tyranitar and Metagross something to fear and respect at the same time. So the point of all of this is, it would seem reasonable to accept Volcarona as a Pseudo-Legend due to past treatment of Bug types in general. Besides, doesn't it seem more like a fan idea to have them required to have a BST of 600 and be a 3 stage line? What if GF has their own requirements to the idea and simply design them as they please? For a Bug type to fill this role, all of this would make alot of sense. Why simply believe a Pseudo-Legend requires those things only because of past tradition from Gen I-IV? Wouldn't it be fair for a Bug type Pseudo-Legend to exist yet still follow the tradition of Bug types having lower Base stats than others? [[User:Shiramu Kuromu|Shiramu Kuromu]] 20:36, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
::::Pseudo-legendary is a fan term, so fans determine the requirements. It is based on a pattern we as fans have detected in each generation? Being "strong" has nothing to do with being pseudo-legendary (other than that pseudo-legendary requires a 600 BST). Champion usage does not make something pseudo-legendary, even if it is their primary Pokémon. Alder doesn't use a legendary Pokémon because they are restricted to battle facility Trainers and storyline events. They did not fit it into their previous pattern. Anything that breaks the mold is not bending the pattern, but rejecting it. What does Volcarona have in common with actual pseudo-legendary Pokémon? If we let Volcarona in, then the definition of pseudo-legendary becomes "has two types, needs 1,250,000 exp to get to level 100". Now, if you look at {{cat|Pokémon in the Slow experience group|this list of Pokémon in that experience group}} and pick out all the dual typed Pokémon, excluding legendary Pokémon, you can see just how many there are. To name a few, {{p|Abomasnow}}, {{p|Aggron}}, {{p|Sharpedo}}, {{p|Lanturn}}. And that is only a few of them. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 11:49, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
:::::Now you're being just biased about all this. Why do they all need BSTs of 600? Can't Volcarona be the exception due to it's Bug typing? Even if Dual typed and Slow exp group were the only requirements now, it would all still be the same, since Volcarona would be the only Pseudo-Legend that doesn't fill the previous 600 BST requirement. All you seem to be trying to do is sticking too much to tradition, because honestly, I thought you'd stick with the 1st to 4th gen's Pseudo-Legend tradition of Attack being the highest stat when it was revealed Hydreigon's highest was Special Attack instead. Due to that, I thought everybody would be biased with even it due to favoring Special Attack instead. Volcarona, when compared to Aggron of Flygon, makes far more sense as a Pseudo-Legendary. Honestly, I think of Pseudo-Legendaries having the highest BST of all non-legendaries out of one of their types. Dragonite, Salamence, Garchomp, and Hydreigon have the highest Base Stat total of all non-legendary Dragon types, Tyranitar has the highest of all Non-legendary Rock types, and the highest for Dark types along with Hydreigon. Metagross has the highest out of all Non-legendary Steel and Psychic types. Volcarona has the highest of all Non-legendary Bug types. It all makes sense when you consider how a Pseudo-Legendary could be designed with that in mind. [[User:Shiramu Kuromu|Shiramu Kuromu]] 21:56, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
::::::In other words, think of it this way:

::::::-Non-legendary.
::::::-Evolves atleast once.
::::::-Highest Base Stat total of atleast one of their types.
::::::-Dual typed.
::::::-Slow Experience group.

::::::With this in mind, ONLY Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamence, Metagross, Garchomp, Hydreigon, and Volcarona fit all four of these requirements. Arcanine and Slaking don't have two types, and Archeops isn't in the right Exp group and isn't the highest of either of it's types. So there you have it, problem solved. [[User:Shiramu Kuromu|Shiramu Kuromu]] 22:18, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
:::::::So what you're saying is that we should change the currently accepted definition of Pseudo-legendary just because you want Volcarona to be one. Not gonna happen.

:::::::Besides, Ghetsis is the last opponent in the story, and he uses a Hydreigon, but not a Volcarona. Not that final opponent usage matters, as Tyranitar was first used by Blue in FR/LG and was still considered a Pseudo-legendary in Gen II. - [[User:Blazios|Blazios]] [[User Talk:Blazios|talk]] 09:29, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
::::::::ALDER is the last, not Ghetsis man. ALDER uses VOLCARONA, not Hydreigon. [[User:Shiramu Kuromu|Shiramu Kuromu]] 17:15, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
:::::::::The ''main story'' ends with Ghetsis, not Alder. Alder is postgame. - [[User:Blazios|Blazios]] [[User Talk:Blazios|talk]] 17:56, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

== METAGROSS ==

In BW you can find wild Metang and metagross in Giant Casm. So it is'nt really a Pseudo-Legandary. --[[User:Nazirbashir|Nazirbashir]] 11:04, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
:And you can find wild Dragonair and Dragonite near the Dragonsprial Tower. What does not being found in the wild have to do with being a pseudo legendary? --[[Tracey Sketchit|'''ケンジ''']][[User talk:Kenji-girl|'''の''']][[User:Kenji-girl|'''ガール''']] 11:13, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

== Did anyone mention... ==
that ALL Pseudo-Legendaries have immunities? It's true you know.
:It was in the trivia section, I swear...must've been removed for some reason (wtf deletionists) [[User:Frugali|Frugali]] 09:08, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
: : Kind of pointless to mention because they are not the only one with immunities. Lots of Pokemon have immunities to one type or another. [[User:Frozen Fennec|Frozen Fennec]]

== Coincidences. ==

Didn't want to start an edit war, so I'm just going to post here to see what others think. So far as i know, and as far as I believe the fandom is concerned, the only defining traits of a pseudo legend are that they have a base stat total of 600 and that they evolve. I myself was unaware that they all need 1.25 million experience points to hit level 100. Does anyone else think that that fact in the definition in the opening paragraph is extraneous? [[User:RB Golbat|RB Golbat]] 15:20, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
:Simply put, no. Espially if all six of them have that trait. [[User:Truthseeker4449|Truth]][[User talk:Truthseeker4449|seeker]][[Special:Contributions/Truthseeker4449|4449]] 02:05, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
::Let's face it, you ask anyone who plays Pokemon, and they'll give you the 600 BST Evolution definition. Did Nintendo give them all the same amount of experience at level 100 on purpose? Probably. Is that how people define Pseudo Legendary? No. And since this page is a fan definition, then it should use what most people refer to it as. [[User:RB Golbat|RB Golbat]] 02:15, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
:::Many Pokémon need 1.25 Million exp to get to level 100, but they're not classed as Pseudo legendary (for obvius reasons such as Base stat=/=600). So I agree with RB, remove it.--[[User:Force Fire|'''F''']][[Reshiram (Pokémon)|orce]][[User talk:Force Fire|'''F''']][[Zekrom (Pokémon)|ire]] 02:22, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
::::It's been a week since I last asked, and it's a 1-1 split by people who aren't me. So here is a one week bump to try to solicit opinions, before seeing that no one else cares and changing it back to the way i changed it. [[User:RB Golbat|RB Golbat]] 14:50, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

== Slaking ==

I am aware that an argument has already been brought up to add Slaking to the list. I think it should be added, for the following reasons. From what I understand, the definition here of a Pseudo-Legendary is (a) it can't be legendary. (b) It must evolve twice. It is not part of the definition that all of them must be dual typed, nor that they must have an immunity. This is simply a trait that all of the current members of the list happen to share. The third part of the current definition is that all of them must have exactly 600 BST. This is the part I don't understand. I can understand why it would be nice to have a requirement for at least 600, but why does it have to be exact? This brings us to Slaking. It has the highest base stats of any non-legendary. It evolves twice. Why should it be denied the position of being pseudo-legendary for being too powerful? Pseudo-legendary means "resembling a legendary", and legendaries are supposed to be powerful. There are 16 legendaries with a BST over 600, and 11 even higher than Slaking's. In terms of its lack of a second type, 22 out of 47 legendaries are single-typed. Slaking's lack of a second type definitely should not exclude it from being a pseudo-legendary. [[User:Tk3141|Tk3141]] 22:19, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
:''Slaking, though not pseudo-legendary, has the highest base stats of all non-legendary Pokémon and one immunity, to the Ghost-type. However, it lacks some factors: a base-stat total of 600 and a secondary type. Slaking is also hindered by its ability, Truant, which is likely the reason for its high stats. '' From this page. However I would say the biggest reason it is not on here is because Truant truly cripples any astounding power it has. The only time to experience its true full potential is in a double battle with a Pokemon that uses Skill Swap on it so it can attack every turn rather than half the turns. ''[[User:Frozen Fennec|Frozen]] [[User talk:Frozen Fennec|Fennec]]'' 22:24, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
::As I mentioned above, however, I don't think that a secondary type or an exact BST should be part of the definition. Yes, Truant does cripple Slaking, but it is technically speculation which says that this is the reason for its high stats. It is a non-legendary that has an even higher BST than any others on the list. [[User:Tk3141|Tk3141]] 02:22, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
:::It is a fandom-defined term. This is the definition. We only report was it, not make it the way it is. The fandom says BST must equal 600, so Slaking is not pseudo-legendary. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 12:28, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
::::Might we want to review this definition, though? If we want the list to consist of those who are "like legendaries", we shouldn't restrict the list to dual types, as almost half of legendaries are single-typed. Similarly, less than half of legendaries have a BST of exactly 600. "The fandom" is, in my opinion, a vague term; it can't be that everybody agrees on the same point. [[User:Tk3141|Tk3141]] 16:22, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
:::::This page is a description of a fan term which describes all Pokémon which have, thus far, followed a specific pattern. Until the fans choose to recognize a Pokémon which Game Freak has made defy the pattern, no changes to the definition should be needed.--[[User:MisterE13|Mister]][[User talk:MisterE13|'''E''']][[Special:Contributions/MisterE13|13]] 00:21, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
::::::Pseudo-legendary, while it does mean "like legendary", it is not a group that includes all Pokémon that are similar to legendary Pokémon, it is a group of Pokémon that follow a certain pattern (which causes them to be powerful). "The fandom" refers to the general fan consensus; not everybody agrees, but most people concede to this definition. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 06:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

== So seriously, what's the definition? ==

As I pointed out above (and nearly no one responded), if the sixth gen introduces a non-legendary Pokemon with a 600 BST with only one type will we say that it's not pseudolegendary, or will we just change the definition of what a psuedolegendary is? Why is having two types or a specific level-up curve considered a ''necessary condition'' to being a pseudolegendary rather than just a trait all of the current ones happen to have? Indeed, given that you can completely remove either restriction or both of them and not change the list of pseudolegendary Pokemon ''at all'' (you can't do so with the 600 BST or the fact that they come from evolutionary families), I'd say Occam's Razor would slice away those unnecessary conditions. --[[User:HeroicJay|HeroicJay]] 07:09, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
: PS. I'd like to point out that the opening paragraph used to mention that all pseudos had Attack as their highest stat, though it wisely did not include that as a part of the definition of what makes a pseudo a pseudo. [[Hydreigon|Now it doesn't say that any more.]] Just sayin'. --[[User:HeroicJay|HeroicJay]] 07:26, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
::The pseudolegendaries are variations on a theme. The dual types and stats are part of that theme. Single type would suggest that there's an underlying difference. Experience group makes them hard to raise, suggesting that they're all very similar. Like PP of moves, experience group is an indicator of the similarity of Pokemon. If Nintendo feel the need to make it a lower experience group, that makes it easier to raise, suggesting that there are underlying differences - the Pokemon are not considered equal. Stats like that aren't just a random choice. [[User:Werdnae|Werdnae]] [[User talk:Werdnae|(talk)]] 20:01, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
:::I can't say I agree. We can say that the two types and the level-up curve are traits they all have, at present, but how is it part of the definition? If you remove those restrictions, the number of pseudolegendary Pokemon remains six, so those restrictions aren't helping with the definition and just unnecessarily restrict possible future psuedolegendaries. I was asked to provide a source that they're not necessary. Where's the source that they are? I mean, let's say, totally hypothetically, that one made a page called "Pikachu Clones" back in the fourth gen, discussing Pokemon such as Pichu, Plusle, Minun, and Pachirisu. (The usefulness of such a page isn't the point; let's just say that one existed.) At the time, they decided to define the Pokemon as "Cute mono-Electric-type Pokemon that have a resemblence to Pikachu. Aside from Pichu and Pikachu, none of the Pikachu clones evolve." Are you to say that, when the fifth gen came out, this hypothetical page would have been wrong to alter its definition and include Emolga? If so, why? And if not, then why did the definition need to include the "mono-" part of it at all if it's unnecessarily limiting and so easily discarded? --[[User:HeroicJay|HeroicJay]] 20:57, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
::::I personally don't think having two types should be part of the definition; I don't see a pure Dragon-type pseudo legendary Pokemon being that unlikely. I did a quick search, and I couldn't find any other non-forum giving a definition of pseudo-legendary Pokemon, so there is nothing stating either way. However, I would say experience group is just as important as BST. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 12:42, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
:::::No, I still stand against it. I'm being treated like I'm trying to redefine which Pokemon are pseudolegendary, and, yes, I do see that others have tried. But I'm not. Removing these two restrictions does nothing. It's Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamence, Metagross, Garchomp, and Hydreigon now. It'll be Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamence, Metagross, Garchomp, and Hydreigon if you remove those restrictions.
:::::Who made the call that they're necessary to the definition? I've been asked to source that they're not. Why must I prove the negative? It's the positive case that requires proof! Should I add a [citation needed] to the definition?
:::::If you were to remove the 600 BST part of the defintion, and still keep everything else, you'd add things like Aggron and Rhyperior to the list, so we can't do that.
:::::The "three-stage evolutionary family" thing comes off to me as a roundabout way of saying "not legendary", but I'm fine with it since legendary status can be arguable (the Legendary page on this very wiki is unsure on Phione, and even though I strongly disagree, I've even seen modern fans try to argue Rotom's legendary status.) And without it, Jirachi and Landorus are brought into the list of "pseudolegendaries", so obviously that restriction is necessary, regardless of the wording.
:::::But why type combos? Why experience groups? Removing them changes what? Is there a 600-BST three-stage mono-type family in the medium-slow group that is clearly not pseudolegendary I'm somehow unfamiliar with? (Well, Slaking has a 6'''7'''0 BST and three stages and is a monotype, though he is in the Slow group, but... Truant is all it takes to convince me he's not a proper pseudolegendary. And he's the closest there is, besides the obvious six!)
:::::As I said, if you were to put on the side (in Trivia or something) that all of them, at present, are dualtypes in the Slow experience group, you wouldn't see me argue - it's true, after all. But to put it in the definition, as if to say "Pokémon without these traits can't be pseudolegendary"... I jusst don't see it. --[[User:HeroicJay|HeroicJay]] 18:31, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
::::::Thing is, pseudo-legendary is the observation of a pattern and nothing more. When they all fit it and it is likely that they will continue fitting a condition, it should be treated as part of the definition. No, removing the experience group condition does not remove anything, but that condition is really for restricting what we may get next generation. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 15:02, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
:::::::Next generation, if we get a Pokemon with a BST of 600 who is at the top of a three-stage evolution family in the medium-slow experience group instead of slow, and it doesn't have any major negative traits like Truant, do you really think the fandom isn't going to call it a pseudo-legendary? Do you honestly believe most of the fandom - who defined the term - even cares about experience curves that much? And can you provide a source on it? --[[User:HeroicJay|HeroicJay]] 22:41, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
::::::::There is no source (BP was the only fansite I could find that actually defined pseudo-legendary outside of "means Dragonite, Tyranitar, Metagross, Garchomp, Hydreigon"), because GF has never officially mentioned the pattern anywhere, but the pattern is obvious enough that the fandom has noticed it. Knowing the fandom—who tried and push Volcarona and Haxorus into being pseudo-legendary—there will certainly be many people who think it should be. However, it won't truly be one. I don't see that ever happening though, as experience group is part of the pattern. Even if something had a BST of 600, three-stage evolutionary family and medium-slow experience group but had Truant, it would still be pseudo-legendary. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 15:18, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
:::::::::Isn't that a contradiction? (Did you get your experience groups confused?) And if something can be pseudolegendary with Truant, then Slaking should definitely count, since his stats are way higher than the existing pseudolegendaries (NOTE: I do not consider Slaking a pseudolegendary, I'm just saying that the logic doesn't flow.) --[[User:HeroicJay|HeroicJay]] 18:21, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
::::::::::Truant is irrelevant; its BST is not 600, so it does not fit the pattern. And yes, I meant slow experience group (I meant to check that before I saved). --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 12:31, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
:::::::::::I would argue that, though it's not a very specific or encyclopedic definition, a pseudo-legendary Pokemon would be a non-legendary Pokemon as strong, stat-wise, as legendaries. By that simple definition, Slaking easily fits the bill... or, rather, he would, except Truant limits his strength. (Well, Regigigas is similarly hindered, but all the same...) Now that said, all pseudos that exist have 600; there's no argument here and it works to say it. But the rest of it is redundant, adds nothing to the definition, and is something we'll just have to retcon away the moment GameFreak decides to contradict it.
:::::::::::BTW, Does ''anyone else at all'' have any input? Anyone? I've notived that a lot of Bulbapedia discussions go nowhere fast; at best, they wind up arguments between two or three users, like, say, this one. --[[User:HeroicJay|HeroicJay]] 22:59, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
::::::::::::If you ask any fan what they define psuedo legendary as, they would say a three stage evolution line with a 600 BST in the final stage. Two types and experience are not what you would get with most fans definition. Since this is a fandom term, we should use the definition most fans use. [[User:RB Golbat|RB Golbat]] ([[User talk:RB Golbat|talk]]) 21:47, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Pesudo-legendary is a fan term to describe an intentional pattern. Experience group is part of this part of the pattern. Therefore, it should be considered part of the definition. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 03:06, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
::::::::::::::It's part of the "pattern" that people only learn about when they read this page. Regardless of if it's a pattern or not, it's not what the fandom defined definition is. [[User:RB Golbat|RB Golbat]] ([[User talk:RB Golbat|talk]]) 03:15, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
(unindenting) [http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue21/best_of_best Here is one example] of the term being define without the dual typing or the experience mentioned. I'm sure I can find more online later when not at work. [[User:RB Golbat|RB Golbat]] ([[User talk:RB Golbat|talk]]) 10:47, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

== Champion Iris with Hydreigon ==

You should add that. [[User:Chomper4|Chomper4]] ([[User talk:Chomper4|talk]]) 00:36, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

== Pseudo-Pseudo-Legendary ==

Maybe we should have a pseudo-pseudo legendary page or section for all the almost pseudo-legendary pokemon (That don't quite fit the requirements but are still considered near-legendary pokemon. This is just after reading the whole talk page about the controversy... {{unsigned|Yor2cool}}
:That would result in debates over what counts as almost fitting the category. The definition debates all assume the same Pokémon as already part of the group. There are no Pokémon that are debatably pseudo-legendary Pokémon. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 12:49, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

== Something unique about Metagross ==

Should it be noted that Metagross is the only Pseudo who doesn't resist, but in fact has a weakness to, fire? [[User:DragonMasterNeal|DragonMasterNeal]] ([[User talk:DragonMasterNeal|talk]]) 19:10, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

== Ability capitalization ==

A user with permission could change "ability" to "Ability" in the Tyranitar section. [[User:Yvnr|Yvnr]] ([[User talk:Yvnr|talk]]) 19:01, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

== Seriously? ==

Why is this page protected? I wanted to add something to Others. [[User:Stickipedia|Stickipedia]] ([[User talk:Stickipedia|talk]]) 21:51, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
:As the protection log notes: "''As this is a subject of constant debate, editing is restricted. Requests can be made on the talk page.''" - [[User:Kogoro|'''Kogoro''']] '''-''' [[User talk:Kogoro|'''Talk to me''']] - 21:57, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

== Tyranitar as main Pokemon of an NPC trainer ==

* "Only pseudo-legendary Pokémon that is not the main Pokémon of a major boss at the end of the game it was introduced in. However, Tyranitar was used by Blue in Pokémon FireRed and LeafGreen Versions, but only in his rematch."

Tyranitar (as a [[Shadow Pokémon]]) was also [[Evice]]'s main Pokémon, in the final battle of [[Pokémon Colosseum]]. I think this is an interesting addition we can make to that note. --''[[User:Stratelier|Stratelier]]'' 05:18, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

== Minor RFEs ==

Playing the Grammar Nazi card....

Under the Metagross section, there is this line:

:"This is likely why Metagross is the only pseudo-legendary Pokémon not to be used by Lance in any game, as he prefers Dragon-type and '''draconian''' Pokémon."

The correct word is ''draconic''; the word 'draconian' means '[http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/draconian severely harsh or strict]'.

And under Garchomp's section:

:"It '''compliments''' these attributes with '''it's''' Ground typing,"

Wrong 'its', no apostrophe required. And it should probably use compl'''e'''ment instead of compl'''i'''ment.

--''[[User:Stratelier|Stratelier]]'' 05:29, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

== Use by gym leaders ==

Should we add some of the gym leaders (in their various types of rematches and the PWT) as users of the pseudo-legendaries, and possibly the Elite Four? For example, Brock with Tyranitar and Giovanni and Clair with Garchomp. --[[User:Darthrai|Darthrai]] ([[User talk:Darthrai|talk]]) 01:28, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

== Pokémon Pages ==
I'm bringing this up here because it seems silly to go to each individual page to say it...
Should the Pokémon's actual pages really say that they're "pseudo-legendary Pokémon" up at the top? I mean, by definition it is a '''fan term''', so I don't think it belongs there with their typing and evolutionary patterns. Maybe in their trivia sections, but not there. It looks very unprofessional to stick a fan-term at the top of the pages of these Pokémon, otherwise you might as well change Snivy's opening text to "Snivy (fannon: Smugleaf)". It's just as ridiculous. [[User:Me, Hurray!|Me, Hurray!]] ([[User talk:Me, Hurray!|talk]]) 14:11, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
Actually, a better comparison would be changing all of Eevee's evolutionary family pages to say "X is a Y-type Eeveelution". What I'm saying is, I don't think fan terminology belongs there. [[User:Me, Hurray!|Me, Hurray!]] ([[User talk:Me, Hurray!|talk]]) 14:14, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
:Eeveelution has actually became canon term (first used in [http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/8/8c/Pok%C3%A9mon_Stadium_2_-_Nintendo_Player%27s_Guide_p120.jpg Stadium 2 guide], then later in TCG Theme Deck... plus in-game in Shadows of Almia). [[User:Marked +-+-+|Marked +-+-+]] ([[User talk:Marked +-+-+|talk]]) 14:22, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
::Fine, make that edit then, but that's not my point. "Pseudo-legendary" is not an official term, its a fan term. This is not Smogon, this is an encyclopaedia. [[User:Me, Hurray!|Me, Hurray!]] ([[User talk:Me, Hurray!|talk]]) 14:08, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

== Edit request ==

Since this page seems to be under indefinite protection, I'm forced to request here instead of waiting out the protection. There are three instances of the word '''typing''' being incorrectly used as a noun, which you can find by CTRL+F. Can these please be changed to simply '''type'''? [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 17:43, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

== Metagross in Gen III ==

I think it is worth mentioning that Metagross is the only pseudo-legendary that cannot be obtain in the generation it was released in, before defeating the elite four. [[User:Benjabby|Benjabby]] ([[User talk:Benjabby|talk]]) 10:19, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
:The same goes for Tyranitar.--'''[[User:Dennou Zenshi|電禅]][[User talk:Dennou Zenshi|Den Zen]]''' 10:24, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

== Trivia ==

Should it be added that only [[Tyranitar]] and [[Metagross]] aren't partially dragon-type? [[User:Nutter Butter|Nutter Butter]] ([[User talk:Nutter Butter|talk]]) 20:23, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
:[[Pseudo-legendary Pokémon#Other|It is there.]]--'''[[User:Dennou Zenshi|電禅]][[User talk:Dennou Zenshi|Den Zen]]''' 20:48, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

== Goodra ==

So, if Goodra is to be included, it would mean A) Goodra is the first pure type, B) Goodra has the highest Sp.Def./the only 1 with Sp.Def. its highest stat/has the lowest Att. C) Dragonite is no longer the only pseudo portrayed as friendly, D) Hydreigon is no longer the only pseudo with a type immunity via ability (Goodra's Sap Sipper), E) Goodra is the only pseudo who is not necessarily immune to a type (since it has 2 other abilities), F) Goodra is the only pseudo with additional evolutionary conditions, G) Goodra is the only pseudo whose mid-stage is available in its debut games. Anything else? --[[User:Mr. Bonding|Mr. Bonding]] ([[User talk:Mr. Bonding|talk]]) 01:34, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

<blockquote> "Dragonite is no longer the only pseudo portrayed as friendly" </blockquote>
:Wait what? I'm going to need explanation for this one. [[User:Benjabby|Benjabby]] ([[User talk:Benjabby|talk]]) 20:00, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
::Dragonite-Guides crews of shipwrecks to shore, kindhearted. Goodra-Hugs trainer. [[User:RespectThePixel|RespectThePixel]] ([[User talk:RespectThePixel|talk]]) 00:51, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

== There are seven pseudo-legendaries now ==

enough said. ~--[[User:Dapianoman|Dapianoman]] ([[User talk:Dapianoman|talk]]) 01:45, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

== Users ==

Goodra is also used by Shauna in X&Y. Just a small thing that I would add if I could :L [[User:Benjabby|Benjabby]] ([[User talk:Benjabby|talk]]) 19:44, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
:It's already in the article. --[[User:S2daam|--samm :D]] 19:55, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

== Goodra Description ==

Shall I make the description for Goodra or is someone else assigned to it? [[User:RespectThePixel|RespectThePixel]] ([[User talk:RespectThePixel|talk]]) 00:55, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

== Images for Goomy and Sligoo on the chart ==

You messed it up. Goomy's image is where Sliggoo's should be and vice versa. [[User:StongRadd|StongRadd]] ([[User talk:StongRadd|talk]]) 03:01, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

== Mega Evolutions ==

Should it be noted that Tyranitar and Garchomp both receive Mega Evolutions in Gen VI?--[[User:Darkmaster|Darkmaster]] ([[User talk:Darkmaster|talk]]) 04:58, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

== Counting error ==

With the addition of Goodra, there are now seven pseudo-legendary Pokemon, not 6. pikalax 22:44, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

== Mistaken ==

Pseudo-legendary is a fanmade term, and the definition of pseudo-legendary varies from fan to fan. So why does it say Pokémon like Flygon, Aggron, Kingdra, et cetera are mistaken for pseudo-legendaries? While they may not be pseudo-legendaries in one fan's terms, Garchomp may not be pseudo-legendary in another fan's terms. [[User:Bill Gates|Bill Gates]] ([[User talk:Bill Gates|talk]]) 21:53, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
:They are not pseudo-legendary by the definition agreed upon by Bulbapedia and metagame websites. Individual people who don't bother to look into things like stats may mistakenly think that "pseudo-legendary" is just a term that means nearly or almost legendary, when it is actually a very specific term for a very specific kind of Pokemon. [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 21:57, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
::Most metagame websites don't list Goodra as pseudo-legendary. [[User:Bill Gates|Bill Gates]] ([[User talk:Bill Gates|talk]]) 17:49, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
:::But according to Bulbapedia's description of a pseudo-legendary, and unless I am very mistaken, this wiki is indeed Bulbapedia, it is a pseudo-legendary, which is why it's on the page. ☆[[User:Solar Dragon|The]] [[User talk:Solar Dragon|Solar]] [[Special:Contributions/Solar Dragon|Dragon]]☆ 17:51, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
::::Bulbapedia's description is not the only description out there, and my point is no Pokémon can be "mistaken" for a pseudo-legendary. [[User:Bill Gates|Bill Gates]] ([[User talk:Bill Gates|talk]]) 01:14, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
:::::Yes, but this is Bulbapedia, that is the description that Bulbapedia has settled on for what a pseudo legendary is and so that is why Goodra is on the list. There are other definitions out there with some of those other Pokémon coming into them, which is why, by Bulbapedia's definition, they are mistaken. ☆[[User:Solar Dragon|The]] [[User talk:Solar Dragon|Solar]] [[Special:Contributions/Solar Dragon|Dragon]]☆ 22:45, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
::::::Pseudo-legendary is a fan term to describe an existing pattern. Goodra fits this pattern, so it is pseudo-legendary. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 03:18, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

== mainly shared weakness? ==

I've noticed every single pseudo-legendary has the fairy weakness besides metagross. That could be something to consider. {{unsigned|Nerdandrew}}
:Sure, notable trivia if all of them had the weakness. However, "All but one" is not notable trivia. ☆[[User:Solar Dragon|The]] [[User talk:Solar Dragon|Solar]] [[Special:Contributions/Solar Dragon|Dragon]]☆ 16:43, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
::I think it can be added to the "Individual characteristics" section, though.--'''[[User:Dennou Zenshi|電禅]][[User talk:Dennou Zenshi|Den Zen]]''' 16:51, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

== Information about Goodra ==

Can admins add information about Goodra since the page is locked, thank you and remember it is the only pseudo-legendary to have one type: Dragon (which it usually had). [[User:Cinday123|Cinday123]] ([[User talk:Cinday123|talk]]) 04:35, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

== "All pseudo-legendary Pokémon have appeared in the anime" ==

Which isn't true, now that we have Goodra with Gen VI. Alteration, maybe? -- [[User:Pringles|Pringles]] 05:05, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
:By the end of any given generation, all Pokemon (regardless of pseudo-legendary status) have appeared in the anime except Porygon2 and Porygon-Z, so I feel like saying that on this page is unnecessary altogether. [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 05:12, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

== Sprites into artwork ==

Can any admin turn these sprites into artwork since the page is protected. [[User:Cinday123|Cinday123]] ([[User talk:Cinday123|talk]]) 05:21, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Admins, since we're in Generation VI, could you turn sprites into artwork so that is my commet above. And turn Goodra's Dream World artwork into a Sugimori artwork. [[User:Cinday123|Cinday123]] ([[User talk:Cinday123|talk]]) 05:03, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
:Thanks, one down, six to go, can you turn Dragonite, Tyraniter, Salamence, Metagross, Garchomp and Hydreigon's sprites into artwork? [[User:Cinday123|Cinday123]] ([[User talk:Cinday123|talk]]) 05:33, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

== Only pseudo-legendary Pokémon to not have any 4× weaknesses. ==

This is false. With the introduction of Goodra, Metagross is no longer the only pseudo-legendary with 4x weaknesses. Goodra has only one type, and therefore can't have any 4x weakness. I would edit this myself, but I can't. [[User:Svolur|Svolur]] ([[User talk:Svolur|talk]]) 04:23, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

== Error regarding Sliggoo ==

"Pseudo-legendary Pokémon are obtainable in the wild strictly in their first form for the first paired games of their generation." This is not true since in X/Y there are wild Sliggoo. [[User:Shepeedy|Shepeedy]] ([[User talk:Shepeedy|talk]]) 12:59, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
:"Due to having the same typing as Dragonite, Salamence differs itself by being entirely focused on attacking prowess. It's stats are high in Attack, Special Attack, and Speed, while comparatively low in both Defense stats." Please correct that "it's" and ban whoever wrote it. [[User:Shepeedy|Shepeedy]] ([[User talk:Shepeedy|talk]]) 23:07, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
:Another typo on the page: "psuedo-legendary". --[[User:Raijinili|Raijinili]] ([[User talk:Raijinili|talk]]) 09:10, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

== A few changes... ==

:1. (3.2.8 Other) Dragonite and Tyranitar's Special Defenses of 100 pale in comparison to Goodra's 150.
:2. (3.3 Users) Last I checked, Shauna is neither an Elite 4 member nor a Champion, and so should probably be included in the second list (which, by the way, already has more than three examples, with two of them being outside of Diamond, Pearl and Platinum).
:3. (4 In the anime) "newly introduced" should be changed to "newly-introduced".
Thanks. -- [[User:EnosShayrem|EnosShayrem]][[User_talk:EnosShayrem|talk]] 02:35, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
:On that last one — it's incorrect to use a hyphen after a -ly word, per AP style guidelines. I quote from the AP Stylebook 2012, page 301 of the punctuation guide, under the entry on hyphens: ''"COMPOUND MODIFIERS: When a compound modifier — two or more words that express as single concept — precedes a noun, use hyphens to link all the words in the compound except the adverb very and all adverbs that end in -ly."'' [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 02:53, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
::Ah! You learn something new every day. Also, a few more things:
:::4. (2 Characteristics) That second paragraph needs rewriting; I propose: "The base stages of pseudo-legendary Pokémon have base stat totals of 300, while their first evolutions have base stat totals of 420, excluding Pupitar and Gabite, which have 410. In general, pseudo-legendary Pokémon have Attack as their highest stat. This is not the case with Hydreigon and Goodra, which have Special Attack and Special Defense as their highest stats, respectively."
:::5. (3.2.1 Dragonite) The last sentence should be removed, what with the very affectionate, and might I add adorable, Goodra.
:::6. (3.3 Users) It should be somehow mentioned that in Black and White 2's Challenge Mode, Caitlin's use of Metagross extends to her first battle.
::-- [[User:EnosShayrem|EnosShayrem]][[User_talk:EnosShayrem|talk]] 02:55, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
::::Did 5 and 6. I have removed the entire "Characteristics" section because it was just making statements that kept building up more and more exceptions. 1 was dealt with ages ago. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 02:37, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

== Goomy line's catch rate ==

It was confirmed that the Goomy line's catch rate is 20, not 45, will admins add information about the catch rates because this line and the Beldum line do not have a catch rate of 45. --[[User:Cinday123|Cinday123]] ''([[User talk:Cinday123|Talk]])'' 02:56, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
:Oh sorry, we don't know the Goomy line's catch rate until the catch rates of Kalos Pokémon are from the official sources, my bad. --[[User:Cinday123|Cinday123]] ''([[User talk:Cinday123|Talk]])'' 07:08, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

==Spelling and the Goomy line==
Because Legendary Pokémon are spelled as 'legendary', could someone change it to 'Legendary' according to a user's Pokémon Syntax? Also, the Goomy line are not next to the Legendary Pokémon and Sliggoo doesn't have a BST of 420, which instead had a BST of 452. --[[User:Cinday123|Cinday123]] ''([[User talk:Cinday123|Talk]])'' 07:08, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
:I'm happy to leave "psuedo-legendary" as that, since it's a fan term and doesn't necessarily have to fit the same capitalization standard as "Legendary Pokémon". This is mainly because I don't feel like going through and doing all the relinking though—it would be way easier conceptually if it was written as "pseudo-Legendary". --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 02:37, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

== Additional fact ==

Under the list of exceptions to the Elite Four and Champions being the only people to use pseudo-legendaries, can someone add that Roark uses a Tyranitar during the rematches at the Battleground in Platinum? [[User:Aggron989|''AGG'']][[User talk:Aggron989|''RON'']][[Special:Contributions/Aggron989|''989'']] 22:21, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
:That whole exceptions section was meant to be for only the three Trainers in DPPt that used pseudo-legendaries, but it just kept building up with examples from other games. I've removed it, since it is no longer accurate. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 02:37, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

== Pokédex placement ==

"With the exception of the Garchomp and Hydreigon evolutionary lines, pseudo-legendary Pokémon are usually situated adjacent to the legendary trios in the Pokédexes of their respective generations"

This line actually isn't correct anymore, the Goodra line is next to Karrablast and Quagsire in regional, with Klefki in national. And since it's only one 4/7 of the Pokémon, I don't think it's really notable anymore. -[[User:IVsaur|EVsandIVsaurs]] 15:31, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
:Correct. [[User:Pikachu Bros.|Pikachu Bros.]] ([[User talk:Pikachu Bros.|talk]]) 16:56, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
::I have removed the entire "Characteristics" section because it was just making statements that kept building up more and more exceptions. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 02:37, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

== This Page Should Be Deleted ==

<nowiki>*</nowiki>Rolls Eyes* This is a wiki, and wikis deal in factual information, not user-created lists and categories... By this logic, every wiki for game that have mod support should have an individual page for every user-created mod. I don't see a legitimate reason as to why this page should exist, as it in no way fits in with the content template every page on Bulbapedia is based off of... [[User:Ulithium Dragon|Ulithium Dragon]] ([[User talk:Ulithium Dragon|talk]]) 21:59, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
:See [[{{FULLPAGENAME}}#What???|What???]]. [[User:Pikachu Bros.|Pikachu Bros.]] ([[User talk:Pikachu Bros.|talk]]) 22:04, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
::This page desribes a clear pattern of Pokémon that Game Freak has put into the game. We just use he fan name to describe them, because there is no official one. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 02:37, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

== Does three stage evolution really matters? ==

I got a doubt, does three stage evolution really matters, because many pokemon like heracross has a base stat of 600 and is a dual Bug/Fighting type. Its signature move Megahorn is the most powerful bug type move, and it's movepool contains some powerful moves like Earthquack and Focuspunch with its base stat comes par with legendary pokemon and even has 4x damage on celebi. [[User:Tgage|Tgage]] ([[User talk:Tgage|talk]]) 12:59, 27 April 2014 (UTC)