Bulbapedia - User contributions [en]

Talk:Pseudo-legendary Pokémon/Archive 1

2014-07-11T05:31:04Z

Pokepro97: /* Minor fix - Bad wikilink on Garchomp */ new section

==What???==
What??? Do we seriously need this??? --{{Ani|155}}{{Ani|476}}'''[[User:Theryguy512|Theryguy]][[User:Theryguy512/Contribution Page|5]][[User:Theryguy512/Mission Page|1]][[User:Theryguy512/Sandbox|2]]'''{{Ani|473}} 20:06, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
:im not going to say its unnessecary, but "Psuedo-legendary" sounds really stupid. so, i think it should either be reworked or deleted. maybe just add to each pokemon's trivia section that they are near legendary or somthing. '''[[User:MAGNEDETH|MAGNEDETH]][[User talk:MAGNEDETH|TA]][[User:MAGNEDETH/Riddles|RID]][[User:MAGNEDETH/new evolutions|NE]][[User:MAGNEDETH/do over|DO]][[User:MAGNEDETH/Pokemon teams|PT]]''' 20:12, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
:I say reworked[[User:Pokemaniac102|'''''<big>P</big>o<big>k</big>e''''']][[User talk:Pokemaniac102|'''''<big>m</big>a<big>n</big>i<big>a</big>c''''']][[User:Pokemaniac102/Riddle|'''''<big>1</big>''''']][[User talk:Pokemaniac102/Riddle|'''''0''''']][[User:Pokemaniac102/Fanfic|'''''<big>2</big>''''']][[User:Pokemaniac102/Picto|'''''♪]][[User talk:Pokemaniac102/Picto|<big>♫</big>''''']] 20:16, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

:::Needs moar reworking. I'll add the cleanup sign.. [[User:Tina|Tina]] [[Special:Contributions/Tina|δ]][[User talk:Tina|♫]] 20:21, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

::::what should they be called then? or do yall think the anme is OK? '''[[User:MAGNEDETH|MAGNEDETH]][[User talk:MAGNEDETH|TA]][[User:MAGNEDETH/Riddles|RID]][[User:MAGNEDETH/new evolutions|NE]][[User:MAGNEDETH/do over|DO]][[User:MAGNEDETH/Pokemon teams|PT]]''' 20:36, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
:::::What'ch ya tryin' to say huh!?[[User:Pokemaniac102|'''''<big>P</big>o<big>k</big>e''''']][[User talk:Pokemaniac102|'''''<big>m</big>a<big>n</big>i<big>a</big>c''''']][[User:Pokemaniac102/Riddle|'''''<big>1</big>''''']][[User talk:Pokemaniac102/Riddle|'''''0''''']][[User:Pokemaniac102/Fanfic|'''''<big>2</big>''''']][[User:Pokemaniac102/Picto|'''''♪]][[User talk:Pokemaniac102/Picto|<big>♫</big>''''']] 20:38, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

:::::::Seems to me that this would an article if where was a "Competitive Battling Project" thing. I do believe I heard the term "Pseudo-legendary" at least once in some places such as Smogon... [[User:Mudkipchan|Mudkipchan]]

::::::::I heard it before. But that was when it was refering to the Groudon in jirachi movie

:::::::::They are all generally recognised as a set of unique pokemon with a few exceptions to each. (e.g. Garchomp's national pokedex number). However, the fan-term 'pseudo-legendary' in itself only actually refers to their final stages. (Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamence, Metagross, Garchomp). Isn't this a bit inaccurate? --[[User:Hyurnat4|Hyurnat4]] 08:44, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

::::::::::Well in the anime, Dratini was specifically called a legendary pokemon in [[EP035|Legend of Dratini]] [[User:Felinoel|felinoel]] 20:35, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

== Flygon? ==

I thought only base 600s were psudeo legendary. Why is flygon here? [[User:The Placebo Effect|The Placebo Effect]] 02:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
:I'm not too sure either. o__O; [[User:Tina|Tina]] [[Special:Contributions/Tina|δ]][[User talk:Tina|♫]] 02:53, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
::It's a three-stage part-dragon type that can only be found in its first form. [[User:Shiny Noctowl|S<big>h</big>i<big>n</big>y]] [[User talk:Shiny Noctowl|<big>N</big>o<big>c</big>t<big>o</big>w<big>l</big>]]  02:54, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
:::i dont think Flygon should be there, its just not rediculous enough '''[[User:MAGNEDETH|MAG]][[User:MAGNEDETH#Interesting Stuff|NE]][[User talk:MAGNEDETH|DETH]]''' 02:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

== Dragonair? ==

CAn't you find wild dragonair in more than 1 game? [[User:The Placebo Effect|The Placebo Effect]] 03:19, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, FRLGRBYDP, But in DP you can find Pokéradar-ed Vibrava. So? [[User:Midnight Celtic|Midnight Celtic]] 03:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

:the fact of the matter is that Dragonite is def a psuedo-leg. '''[[User:MAGNEDETH|MAG]][[User:MAGNEDETH#Interesting Stuff|NE]][[User talk:MAGNEDETH|DETH]]''' 03:24, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. [[User:Midnight Celtic|Midnight Celtic]] 03:25, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

== Aggron ==

What about Aggron? [[User:Kpokefan|K]][[User talk:Kpokefan|P]][[User:Kpokefan/Missions|F]] 04:37, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
:Aggron's UU, I believe. UU Pokémon wouldn't be psuedolegendary if they were in UU. :p [[User:Tina|Tina]] [[Special:Contributions/Tina|δ]][[User talk:Tina|♫]] 04:39, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
::may i ask what UU is? '''[[User:MAGNEDETH|MAG]][[User:MAGNEDETH#Interesting Stuff|NE]][[User talk:MAGNEDETH|DETH]]''' 04:41, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
:::I think it means Under-used, as in List of Pokémon by Tier, which is fan-made[[User:Pokemaniac102|Poke]][[User talk:Pokemaniac102|Maniac]][[Special:Contributions/Pokemaniac102|102]] 04:45, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
::::Yep, under-used. It's fanmade. As is the term pseudolegendary. [[User:Tina|Tina]] [[Special:Contributions/Tina|δ]][[User talk:Tina|♫]] 04:46, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
:::::right, well, Aggron doesnt fit the bill because Lairon can be caught in Victory road, and apparently, thats against the rules...or somthing... '''[[User:MAGNEDETH|MAG]][[User:MAGNEDETH#Interesting Stuff|NE]][[User talk:MAGNEDETH|DETH]]''' 04:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
::::::True.[[User:Pokemaniac102|Poke]][[User talk:Pokemaniac102|Maniac]][[Special:Contributions/Pokemaniac102|102]] 04:49, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Wait a minute, you can catch Dragonair in the wild, so how is Lairon against the rules? [[Image:491.png|45px 45px]][[User:Kpokefan|'''K''']][[User talk:Kpokefan|'''P''']][[User:Kpokefan/Missions|'''F''']] 02:45, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
::::::::Because Aggron's base stats don't total 600. - [[User:Nebula|Nebula]] 15:45, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::The true defintion of pseudo-legendary is a bst of 600 and a three-stage evolutionary line. Things like Dragonair and gabite being caught in the wild are merely trivial. As is the fact they all have one immunity etc. Aggron, Flygon and Kingdra are NOT pseudo-legendaries and never will be. P-Ls do not have to be dragon-type or dragonoid. --[[User:Hyurnat4|Hyurnat4]] 08:50, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

== Real definition for psuedo-legendary ==

Isn't it a BST of 600? [[User:The Placebo Effect|The Placebo Effect]] 13:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

== Pseudo-legendary --> Powerhouse ==

It seems to me that everyone who commented on this page, other than Shiny Noctowl, was dumbfounded as to the article's title and definition therein. For pages dealing with fanon terminology, this is a good sign that something has been done '''wrong'''; fanon terms are ''necessarily'' known to a large number of fans, as opposed to a select few, or in this case - no more than one.

Furthemore, the page (prior to my editing it) included mentions of Pokémon with legendary characteristics, despite their having nothing to do with the suggested definiton of pseudo-legendary. It was also a mere copy-and-paste of the corresponding section on the [[Legendary]] page. Now, as for the definition itself, it should be crystal-clear that the powerhouses, as defined by myself, are ''distinct'' in their categorization from any other Pokémon ({{p|Flygon}}, for the sake of discussion). Simply put, they are non-legendary Pokémon whose total base stats is 600, which is a great deal higher than Flygon's 520 (see the trivia paragraph for clarification on {{p|Slaking}}). Besides, what makes Flygon any more special than {{p|Aggron}}, {{p|Walrein}} and the 7 fully-evolved, two-typed starters? All of these match the definition used by Shiny Noctowl. I do hope that competitive usage is not the reason, because {{p|Swampert}} and {{p|Infernape}} clearly outweigh Flygon in that regard.

It amazes me that everyone assumed that the definition was acceptable simply because someone had put it forth. Bulbapedia encourages critical thinking and sets virtually no limits on the users' capacity to edit existing pages. Why was I the only one who had the fortitude to replace the previous definition with one that is actually used by the fandom? --[[User:Unown Lord|Unown Lord]] 16:47, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
:Mudkipchan apparently heard pseudo-legendary on Smogon, and I've heard pseudo-legendary on several websites, so I think it should be moved back. I agree, though, that the definition needed some work. But why remove Flygon? Its stats are slightly lower, but base stats shouldn't be included in the definition. Other than base stats, Flygon is in every way a pseudo-legendary. [[User:Shiny Noctowl|S<big>h</big>i<big>n</big>y]] [[User talk:Shiny Noctowl|<big>N</big>o<big>c</big>t<big>o</big>w<big>l</big>]]  13:57, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

::You can see my comments on the article's name further below. Now, the explanation for my excluding Flygon should be quite obvious from the pieces of trivia; Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamence, Metagross and Garchomp have more in common than what you listed in your definition, and in fact, they have more in common than just my addition to that definition (a total base stats of 600). Flygon does not share that common denominator; what it does share with the aforementioned five is also shared by ''at the very least'' Walrein and Aggron, who are part of a three-stage line, have two types, require nearly as much experience to reach their form, and have an even higher total of base stats (530). If the only reason for which you included Flygon but excluded those two is that you thought only Flygon was available strictly in its first form, then you thought wrong: In Generation III Sealeo and Walrein are also not available in the wild; in Generation IV both Vibrava and Sealeo are available (incidentally, Lairon is not).

::But all of that is irrelevant, since neither Flygon nor Walrein (nor Aggron, for that matter) has enough in common with the powerhouses/pseudo-legendaries so as to be added to the group. It is enough to require a total base stats of 600 to limit the group to the five relevant ones (a respectable addition in and of itself), but again, their common denominator is even greater than that. Look at the trivia and see it for yourself. --[[User:Unown Lord|Unown Lord]] 13:55, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Shiny, Pseudo-Legendary makes more sense. I.E. My Snorlax is a powerhouse, but it isn't a pseudo-legendary. My Flygon is not my powerhouse, yet it is a pseudo-legendary. Catch my drift? [[User:Midnight Celtic|Midnight Celtic]] 15:28, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
:Psudo legendary should be used. But the only pokemon that should meet this criteria are those 3 stage evos with a base stat of 600. Slaking is questionable, but I would say no to it, as well as flygon. [[User:The Placebo Effect|The Placebo Effect]] 01:08, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

::I'm with {{u|Unown Lord}}. Take it or leave it. -[[User:Politoed666|ニョロトノ]][[User talk:Politoed666|''666'']] 03:29, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

:::i agree with Placebo, though i think Slaking might be in. but not Flygon. '''[[User:MAGNEDETH|MAG]][[User:MAGNEDETH#Interesting Stuff|NE]][[User talk:MAGNEDETH|DETH]]''' 03:31, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I think Midnight Celtic makes a good point, powerhouse can mean ANY strong Pokémon, where as Psuedo-legendary makes a clear point. [[User:GlinnMgraw|Glinn]] 03:37, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

:Incorrect. It depends on the definition, not the connotation that goes along with the given word(s). -[[User:Politoed666|ニョロトノ]][[User talk:Politoed666|''666'']] 03:39, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

What's the point in a defenition if it doesn't explain clearly the subject? [[User:GlinnMgraw|Glinn]] 03:44, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

absolutly, my old car was nicknamed "the powerhouse" but it was definatly not a pokemon! that being said, "powerhouse" is a general term, it sounds more like a metagame term than a true definition. i could load a powerful pokemon with powerful attacks, and ive got a powerhouse, but a psuedo-legendary means its special in some way, and what you are trying to appeal here is to somone whos never jheard the term before, and they will almost understand what psuedo-legendary just by the sound, where as a powerhouse requires an explanation. '''[[User:MAGNEDETH|MAG]][[User:MAGNEDETH#Interesting Stuff|NE]][[User talk:MAGNEDETH|DETH]]''' 04:00, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
:I agree, powerhouse is too broad a term for these Pokémon. Pseudo-legendary fits the bill better. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]{{ani|155|Fire echy}}[[User:TTEchidna/GSDS|GSDS!]]''' 05:57, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

::First of all, my ''true'' gripe was with the contents of the article; redirecting the article to a new title was primarily symbolic of the reshifting of its underlying ideas. However, I would like to point out the irony in the statement that powerhouse is too broad a term spanning just about every overused Pokémon - the same can be said of pseudo-legendary, as evidenced by the fact that this article originally contained a separate list of Pokémon with legendary characteristics!

::Furthermore, I personally feel that ''pseudo-legendary'' should be used to describe only two Pokémon that are not even mentioned in the article: {{p|Unown}} and {{p|Phione}}. ''Legendary'' alludes to mystery and nature or universe-controlling abilities; this article deals with battle prowess, for which legendaries are certainly well known, but it takes second place to their aura. Besides, some legendaries are not as battle-competent as the pseudo-legendaries/powerhouses in the article - practically all tweleve members of the legendary trios, and arguably some others. This comparison holds in base stats (the legendary trio all have a total of 580, which is lower than 600), but even an in-depth comparison on a competitive level leads to the same conclusion, at least generally. Therefore, is it justified to attach the name ''pseudo-legendary'' to a definition that highlights the battle prowess of Pokémon that are actually stronger than some legendaries? On the other hand, Unown and Phione are indeed pseudo-legendary if the term is taken to mean a Pokémon whose aura is associated with a true legendary ({{p|Suicune}} in Unown's case and {{p|Manaphy}} in Phione's).

::But I digress, as I do agree that if ''pseudo-legendary'' is more frequently used by the fandom to describe the group in question, then it should be used for the purposes of discussing a fanon term.

::One last thing - I appreciate Politoed666's token of solidarity. I don't mind reversions to my own edits, especially when done by another sysop, but it isn't my idea of showing respect; it would have been better to wait a bit longer in case I had arguments to present. I only wonder why the same level of urgency was not taken to revise the contents of the article in its original format, when it obviously needed re-working. --[[User:Unown Lord|Unown Lord]] 13:55, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with certain points made by Unown Lord. Perhaps the overall issue with the term "pseudo-legendary" is the usage of "legendary." There are Pokémon that are "legendary" which do have certain exclusive characteristics, and applying the term to another group has its drawbacks. While the term may certain have specific applications to the pseudo-legendary Pokémon it is difficult to draw a completely defined line, contrary to the case with legendary Pokémon. The debate over which Pokémon "qualify" has no feasible ending point, as fans will always stick to their opinion concerning which ones "deserve" to be included. Sure, we have limits on Bulbapedia but in spite of this fact, there is still such an issue, as we can see from this very page. Honestly, I have no problem with the term, despite how vague it is and the supposed difficulty adhering to its guidelines. My wife on the other hand, disagrees with its usage for many of the reasons I mention. [[User:Deviant Audio|Deviant Audio]] 16:01, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

== Title Trouble ==

Uhh, guys, the title says Pseudo-legendary but the article is about powerhouses... --[[User:Manga-in-a-bottle|Manga-in-a-bottle]] 06:01, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
:It's what I was in the middle of fixing, then a million edit conflicts come up. Argh. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]{{ani|155|Fire echy}}[[User:TTEchidna/GSDS|GSDS!]]''' 06:09, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
::Oh... My bad.[[User:Pokemaniac102|Poke]][[User talk:Pokemaniac102|Maniac]][[Special:Contributions/Pokemaniac102|102]] 06:12, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I tried editing it, but then edit-conflicts. Why were you doing one at a time? I could have done it in 30 seconds. :| [[User:GlinnMgraw|Glinn]] 06:12, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
:There were a lot. And I wanted to get some in before there was in edit conflict[[User:Pokemaniac102|Poke]][[User talk:Pokemaniac102|Maniac]][[Special:Contributions/Pokemaniac102|102]] 06:14, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
::hows about we make a note the page about how some people call it "powerhouse" '''[[User:MAGNEDETH|MAG]][[User:MAGNEDETH#Interesting Stuff|NE]][[User talk:MAGNEDETH|DETH]]''' 18:52, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
:::Uh Uh Uh I guess.[[User:Pokemaniac102|Poke]][[User talk:Pokemaniac102|Maniac]][[Special:Contributions/Pokemaniac102|102]] 18:55, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

== Arcanine ==
Shouldn't Arcanine be classified as a powerhouse pokemon as well? [[User:Boywonder01|'''Boy''']][[User talk:Boywonder01|'''wonder''']][[Special:Contributions/Boywonder01|'''01''']] 10:05, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
:Powerhouse. Not pseudo-legendary. There's a difference: Porygon-Z's a powerhouse, Alakazam's a powerhouse. Their base stats in Special Attack are higher than the base stats of any other non-legendary's Attack or Special Attack, but they aren't pseudo-legendary. They aren't the final forms of end-of-dex Pokémon, they're just final forms of Pokémon that do really well in Special Attack. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]{{ani|155|Fire echy}}[[User:TTEchidna/GSDS|GSDS!]]''' 10:35, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
:: But the species is called '''legendary''', despite it isn't a legendary, so it is kind of a pseudo..., isn't it? And it has the highest sum of base-stats of all non-legendary under 600... So there would be good reasons to call it a pseudo-legendary. And by the way, if you search for the [[Powerhouse]]-Article you are redirected to this article, so either there is a need for a own article for the fanterm Powerhouse or Arcanine is truly a pseudo. --[[User:Blablubbb|Blablubbb]] 06:58, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

== 600 stat point total a requirement? ==

Doesn't that seem a little subjective? I mean sure they all have that but that doesn't mean a future Pokemon of similar psuedo-legend status will have that total. Plus with these Pokemon it could just be coincidence they all have 600. Having 600 total might have been how it happened for all of them, but I just don't seem it as a ''requirement'' per se. Just that that's how it happened. Toastypk 03:34, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
:Not really. The psuedo-legends were most likely designed so that their stats WOULD total 600. The only likely exception would be Dragonite due to Special Attack/Defence being a single stat in Generation 1, but it was probably reworked to total 600 in Generation 2. It's hardly likely to be coincedence that their base stats all total 600. - [[User:Nebula|Nebula]] 16:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Hmm... well I've never paid attention to stat totals anyway, just relative strengths. Toastypk
::As I said above a base stat total of 600 is a requirement, not a coindidence. It is why they are called pseudo-legendaries, as many legendary pokemon have a bst of 600.--[[User:Hyurnat4|Hyurnat4]] 08:54, 11 November 2009 (UTC)--[[User:Hyurnat4|Hyurnat4]] 08:55, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Is it worth mentioning that Tyranitar, as of gen IV, technically has a total stats of 650?? (Due to its sand stream ability and the fact that Rock types get a x1.5 boost in S.Def in a sandstorm???) I know its not its true "Base" stats as such but even so I feel it should be mentioned [[User:PhantomCX|PhantomCX]] 12:59, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
:::Nebula, the psuedo-legends were not designed so that their stats would total 600, in fact psuedo-legends at all were not designed, it is just a made up term? [[User:Felinoel|felinoel]] 03:16, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

=={{p|Lucario}}==
Couldn't Lucario fit the pseudo-legendary description? [[User:Shadow1337|Shadow1337]] 23:37, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
:how? its nothing like a Pseudo in any way. -- '''[[User:MAGNEDETH|MAG]][[User:MAGNEDETH#Interesting Stuff|NE]][[User talk:MAGNEDETH|DETH]]''' 23:42, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
::Well, for one thing pseudo-legendary ''by definition'' means false legendary. Lucario was once thought to be a legendary and has very similar stats. It even has higher stats than some of the legendaries.[[User:Shadow1337|Shadow1337]] 00:23, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Pseudo-legendary is a term used to refer to any Pokémon that has a three-stage evolution line,
two types, as well as a base stat total of 600.
:::so, does Lucario fit any of those criteria? One. he has two-types. 1/3 doesnt cut it here. -- '''[[User:MAGNEDETH|MAG]][[User:MAGNEDETH#Interesting Stuff|NE]][[User talk:MAGNEDETH|DETH]]''' 00:40, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
::::But if Lucario ever gets an evolution, its evolution could possibly be a pseudo-legendary. <big>[[user:chocolate|Cho]][[user talk:chocolate|col]][[special:contributions/chocolate|ate]]</big> 00:45, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::No, it won't. Riolu is a baby pokemon evolves from happiness, which will likely separate it. Lucario won't get an evolution because it has too varied a moveset and too high stats.--[[User:Hyurnat4|Hyurnat4]] 08:58, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
:::::That's true.[[User:Shadow1337|Shadow1337]] 00:46, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::not that it wont ever happen, but be rational. do you think Lucario will seriously get an evo? rationally, no. therefor, it is not (currently) a Pseudo-legendary. btw Chocolate, id appreciate it if you didnt edit my comments. if i wanted it like that, id have made it like that in the first place. -- '''[[User:MAGNEDETH|MAG]][[User:MAGNEDETH#Interesting Stuff|NE]][[User talk:MAGNEDETH|DETH]]''' 00:55, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::What's more, speculating on whether an evolution of a Pokémon would be pseudo-legendary is hardly a good argument for calling Lucario one. [[User:GlinnMgraw|Glinn]] [[User_talk:GlinnMgraw|Mgraw]] 11:21, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::I consider Lucario a semi-legendary Pokémon. A few others i put in the group are Pokémon like Arcanine, Unown, Rotom, etc. --'''[[User:InuMimi|いぬ]][[User talk:InuMimi|みみ]]''' 23:14, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::they have legendary traits, but they are not legendaries. and far from pseudo-legendaries. -- '''[[User:MAGNEDETH|MAG]][[User:MAGNEDETH#Interesting Stuff|NE]][[User talk:MAGNEDETH|DETH]]''' 23:20, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

::::::::::That's why I call them semi-legendaries; meaning they are kind of legendary. --'''[[User:InuMimi|いぬ]][[User talk:InuMimi|みみ]]''' 23:23, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[Slaking (Pokémon)]] ==
Why is Slaking not a Psuedo? [[User:DragonTamer|DragonTamer]] 04:53, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
:Oohh, It's not dual type, [[User:DragonTamer|DragonTamer]] 04:55, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

== Inbalance ==

Too much trivia? Too little article? Can someone with experience in competitive gameplay edit it so that the trivia is not longer than the actual article? '''[[User:Optimatum|<sc>Θρtιmαtum♏</sc>]][[User talk:Optimatum|Talk]]|[[User:Optimatum/sig/Pikachu|Links]] 12:30, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

== New table ==
'''Here:'''
{| align="center" style="background: #272727; -moz-border-radius: 10px; border: 5px solid #525252"
! colspan="2" style="background:#{{cynthia color light}}; -moz-border-radius-topleft: 5px;" | {{color2|272727|Generation I}}
! colspan="2" style="background:#{{cynthia color light}}" | {{color2|272727|Generation II}}
! colspan="4" style="background:#{{cynthia color light}}" | {{color2|272727|Generation III}}
! colspan="2" style="background:#{{cynthia color light}}; -moz-border-radius-topright: 5px;"| {{color2|272727|Generation IV}}
|- align="center"
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{kanto color light}}" | [[Image:149.png]] '''{{pcolor|Dragonite|{{kanto color dark}}}}'''
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{johto color light}}" | [[Image:248.png]] '''{{pcolor|Tyranitar|{{johto color dark}}}}'''
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{hoenn color light}}" | [[Image:373.png]] '''{{pcolor|Salamence|{{hoenn color dark}}}}'''
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{colo color light}}" | [[Image:376.png]] '''{{pcolor|Metagross|{{colo color dark}}}}'''
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{sinnoh color light}}" | [[Image:445.png]] '''{{pcolor|Garchomp|{{sinnoh color dark}}}}'''
|- align="center" style="font-size: 90%;"
| style="background:#{{dragon color}}" | {{typecolor|Dragon}}
| style="background:#{{flying color}}" | {{typecolor|Flying}}
| style="background:#{{rock color}}" | {{typecolor|Rock}}
| style="background:#{{dark color}}" | {{typecolor|Dark}}
| style="background:#{{dragon color}}" | {{typecolor|Dragon}}
| style="background:#{{flying color}}" | {{typecolor|Flying}}
| style="background:#{{steel color}}" | {{typecolor|Steel}}
| style="background:#{{psychic color}}" | {{typecolor|Psychic}}
| style="background:#{{dragon color}}" | {{typecolor|Dragon}}
| style="background:#{{ground color}}" | {{typecolor|Ground}}
|- align="center"
! colspan="10" align="center" style="background:#{{cynthia color light}}" | {{color|272727|Evolves from}}
|- align="center"
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{kanto color light}}" | [[Image:148.png]] {{pcolor|Dragonair|{{kanto color dark}}}}
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{johto color light}}" | [[Image:247.png]] {{pcolor|Pupitar|{{johto color dark}}}}
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{hoenn color light}}" | [[Image:372.png]] {{pcolor|Shelgon|{{hoenn color dark}}}}
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{colo color light}}" | [[Image:375.png]] {{pcolor|Metang|{{colo color dark}}}}
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{sinnoh color light}}" | [[Image:444.png]] {{pcolor|Gabite|{{sinnoh color dark}}}}
|- align="center" style="font-size: 90%;"
| style="background:#{{dragon color}}" colspan="2" | {{typecolor|Dragon}}
| style="background:#{{rock color}}" | {{typecolor|Rock}}
| style="background:#{{ground color}}" | {{typecolor|Ground}}
| style="background:#{{dragon color}}" colspan="2" | {{typecolor|Dragon}}
| style="background:#{{steel color}}" | {{typecolor|Steel}}
| style="background:#{{psychic color}}" | {{typecolor|Psychic}}
| style="background:#{{dragon color}}" | {{typecolor|Dragon}}
| style="background:#{{ground color}}" | {{typecolor|Ground}}
|- align="center"
! colspan="10" align="center" style="background:#{{cynthia color light}}" | {{color|272727|Evolves from}}
|- align="center"
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{kanto color light}}" | [[Image:147.png]] {{pcolor|Dratini|{{kanto color dark}}}}
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{johto color light}}" | [[Image:246.png]] {{pcolor|Larvitar|{{johto color dark}}}}
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{hoenn color light}}" | [[Image:371.png]] {{pcolor|Bagon|{{hoenn color dark}}}}
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{colo color light}}" | [[Image:374.png]] {{pcolor|Beldum|{{colo color dark}}}}
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{sinnoh color light}}" | [[Image:443.png]] {{pcolor|Gible|{{sinnoh color dark}}}}
|- align="center" style="font-size: 90%;"
| style="background:#{{dragon color}}; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft: 5px;" colspan="2" | {{typecolor|Dragon}}
| style="background:#{{rock color}}" | {{typecolor|Rock}}
| style="background:#{{ground color}}" | {{typecolor|Ground}}
| style="background:#{{dragon color}}" colspan="2" | {{typecolor|Dragon}}
| style="background:#{{steel color}}" | {{typecolor|Steel}}
| style="background:#{{psychic color}}" | {{typecolor|Psychic}}
| style="background:#{{dragon color}}" | {{typecolor|Dragon}}
| style="background:#{{ground color}}; -moz-border-radius-bottomright: 5px;" | {{typecolor|Ground}}
|}
*[[User:Tc26|tc]][[User talk:Tc26|26]]* 03:47, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

== Available only as their first form. ==

The article states that "Most pseudo-legendaries are obtainable in the wild strictly in their first form. However, Dragonair is also obtainable in the wild in most games where Dratini is (all but Pokémon Red, Green and Blue). Likewise, Pupitar is available in the wild in Crystal. Gabite is found in Victory Road in Platinum."

However, with the addition of Platinum, Gabite can be found in the wild. This means that no, only 2 out of the 5 of them are only found in their first form in the wild. I honestly don't think that something like that should be included in the article, since when was 2 out of 5 "most", or even noteworthy? You could say that all 5 of them have the colour blue on them somewhere, but is that noteworthy?

I'd have already removed it, but the page is protected. [[User:Ggled|Ggled]] 22:09, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
:There's no blue on either Dragonite or Larvitar, thus your entire logic is flawed! Good DAY, sir! :P In all seriousness though, you raise a good point. That part of the article definitely needs to be removed. --[[User:Dual|Dual]] 04:41, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
::Maybe he means a pokemon in the line has had the colour blue on them at some point? --[[User:Hyurnat4|Hyurnat4]] 09:01, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

== Kingdra ==

It doesn't fit the 600 total, (540 in case you were wondering) but it's dual type, it has 3 stages in the family, and it's at the end of the Pokedex. Sorry about bringing up another Pokemon [[User:BaconBoy|Corvy]] 12:25, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
:Kingdra isn't a pseudo-legendary. All qualities must be met. —'''darklord[[User talk:The dark lord trombonator|trom]]''' 20:57, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

== Base Stat total trivia ==

On all the pseudo legendaries, there is a trivia entry stating that they have the second highest base stat total behind slaking. It then goes on to say how it's tied with the other pseudo legendaries etc etc.
Wouldn't it make more sense to just not have this? I mean there's already a link to the pseudo legendary page (here) at the top of the page, and it explains here that they all have the same base stat total etc. Just seems redundant to me and pointless trivia. [[User:Derian|[[Derian]]]] 14:23, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== Stats ==

I don't know how you'd do it, but might it be useful to put stats on the final evolutions at some point.--[[User:Hyurnat4|Hyurnat4]] 09:04, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree. There is a lot of talk about stats and it would be nice to scroll up and refer to the stats of each Pokemon, rather then have to do to their individual page and scroll down. :/[[User:Tro|Tro]] 07:38, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

== Question ==

Should the part about 600 stat total be changed to something like "at least 600"? Yes there is nothing like that now, but if in future generations something with 630 total ''does'' show up it would be better to be prepared now then argue about it when something comes up.--[[user:Mtn otter|Mtn otter]] We are the Void 14:13, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
:We'll sort that out when it happens. Bulbapedia deals with the present. Thanks anyway. —'''darklord[[User talk:The dark lord trombonator|trom]]''' 04:42, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
::I highly doubt anyone would complain about whether or not something with above 600 counts or not... [[User:Felinoel|felinoel]] 14:43, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

== Garchomp's location in the pokedex ==

Stated in the characteristics section, it says that Garchomp's evolution line is not next to any notable pokemon. However, I disagree: Before Gible is Spiritomb, a pokemon that is considered semi-legendary by fans, since it can only be caught once under special conditions in the wild. Should we reword that sentence to include this information? {{Unsigned|AuraGaurdian}}

:Please remember to sign your posts with four tildes (~). [[User:Felinoel|felinoel]] 04:56, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

== Ash's Larvitar ==

It mentions in the trivia that Ash had only one member of the pseudo-legendary line, referencing his Gible, but at one point he had a Larvitar. Shouldn't this be mentioned in the article? --~~[[User_talk:AuraGaurdian|Aura]][[Special:Contributions/AuraGaurdian|Gaurdian]] 17:44, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
:Give the source and edit it to two. [[User:Felinoel|felinoel]] 20:23, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
::It's called [[Ash's Larvitar]] by the way. The trivia is actually referencing to his Larvitar but if you wanted to figure out a way of wording it you could say,"Ash is the only main character in the anime to own two different members of a pseudo-legendary family." or something along those lines. –'''[[User talk:MasterKenobi|Master]][[User:MasterKenobi|Kenobi]]''' 20:36, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
:::Gonna step in here quick and bring up that I think the reason why Gible is said to be Ash's only pseudo-legendary was because Larvitar was never technically ''his'', he was just temporarily taking care of it or whatnot. Its article is named as such for the sake of simplicity. [[User:Umeko|梅子]][[User talk:Umeko|❀]][[Special:Contributions/Umeko|✿]] 20:41, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
::::If that is the case then why does its article call it Ash's? Are we going to need to move the article if it wasn't Ash's? [[User:Felinoel|felinoel]] 03:02, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::From my previous comment on the matter:
::::::''Its article is named as such'' [ie. "Ash's Larvitar"] ''for the sake of simplicity''
:::::We can't very well call the article "the Larvitar that Ash took care of for about eight episodes but was never technically owned by him" or something. :P [[User:Umeko|梅子]][[User talk:Umeko|❀]][[Special:Contributions/Umeko|✿]] 15:30, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::::That may be true but it apparently isn't his, the page at least should not have that, Ash's current pokemon thing at the bottom or something [[User:Felinoel|felinoel]] 20:11, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
This discussion would better serve a purpose [[Talk:Ash's_Larvitar#Ash.27s_Larvitar|here]], so I am moving it there

== Addition of Charizard ==
I feel that Charizard is a pseudo-legendary. I think it should be added due to it's immense power. Feel free to respond. [[User:BrianPokemonTrainer|BrianPokemonTrainer]] 00:42, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
:Did.... you even read the article? Charizard does '''not''' fufill any of the requirements. It's not even that strong. ._. ▫▫'''[[User:Tina|ティナ]]'''[[User talk:Tina|♫]][[Special:Contributions/Tina|★]] 00:45, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
::Well... who decided the rules of this '''fluff''' term anyways? [[User:Felinoel|felinoel]] 02:57, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

== Kibago ==

Isn't kibago a Pseudo-legendary--[[User:lilkaykaygal|KayKay]]|[[User talk:Lilkaykaygal|Chat to me!]] 03:01, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Stats don't reach +600. Ononokusu may be faster and stronger than Gyarados, but a pseudo-legendary he is not.--[[User:Black Yin Zekrom|Black Yin Zekrom]] 03:08, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

==Dratini==
Awww, who removed part of my note in the trivia about how in the anime Dratini was specifically stated to be a legendary pokemon? [[User:Felinoel|felinoel]] 03:18, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

:That's like saying Arcanine should by a Pseudo-Legendary because "Legendary Pokemon" is in its title.{{unsigned|Bluekirbystar}}

::No I only said it should be psuedo-legendary because the anime stated it as a legendary? [[User:Felinoel|felinoel]] 14:01, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
:::This page is about the Pseudo-legendary classification used by fans, especially in regards to the metagame. It does NOT refer to Pokémon which are considered legendary in in-game text or other media, despite not having the rarity or strength of typical legendaries. Why can't anyone seem to understand that? --[[User:AndyPKMN|AndyPKMN]] 15:26, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
::::It was just a note for the trivia, trivia rarely is extremely on-topic with the rest of the article, that is why it gets posted in the trivia and not the article itself. [[User:Felinoel|felinoel]] 16:31, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
:::::Wrong. Trivia must be "on topic". You wouldn't add trivia about how Lance's Dragonite in Gen. I knew Barrier here. Similarly, your trivia would belong in the Legendary Pokémon article, or Dratini's article, but not this article. --[[User:AndyPKMN|AndyPKMN]] 16:50, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
::::::Wrong. I said ''extremely'' on-topic, the anime's classification of Dratini's status is ''moderately'' on-topic with a fluff term based on what the fans feel is Dratini's status. I never said trivia could be off-topic, I only said it didn't have to be ''extremely'' on-topic. [[User:Felinoel|felinoel]] 04:21, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

== Metagross is used in Gen V ==

Metagross is used by Lady Caitlin in the Isshu Elite Four rematch. {{unsigned|Bluekirbystar}}

== Ononokus ==

Isn't Ononokus a psuedo-legendary? It isn't near the end of the Pokedex, but then Garchomp isn't either. [[User:Taromon777|'''T a r o m o n''']] 11:33, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
:No base stats of 600 total. End of discussion.--[[User:Dennou Zenshi|でんのう]] ☢ [[User talk:Dennou Zenshi|'''Z'''えんし]] 11:39, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
::Ah, right. I don't normally bother looking at stats... [[User:Taromon777|'''T a r o m o n''']] 08:40, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
::: You should look at stats; as it is one of the best indicators of which species make a group, or are version counterparts.{{unsigned|Eriorguez}}

== Two types really necessary? ==

I'd say the defining feature is the 600 BST. The page, in more than one place, describes the fact that pseudolegendaries have two types as though you couldn't, even in theory, have a pseudolegendary without it, but is that so? Obviously, all the pseudos that currently exist have two types (and we should mention that fact, don't get me wrong), but wouldn't we just adjust our definition if they (hypothetically) introduced a monotype pseudo in the sixth generation? I don't think we should "define" a pseudo as having two types; nor should we list that as one of the reasons Slaking isn't. --[[User:HeroicJay|HeroicJay]] 17:25, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
:Good point, don't two typers have more weaknesses usually? Not a very legendary trait... [[User:Felinoel|felinoel]] 03:43, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

== Ulgamoth ==

This may be shot down, but SURELY Ulgamoth is a pseudo-legendary. It may lack the Base Stats and Second Evolution, but it's clearly intended to be in the same tier. Its final evolution receives the EV yield of a Third-Stage pokemon, it comes right after Sazandorah, just like how Salamence and Metagross are placed next to each other (Garchomp was separated from legendaries by Evolutions from previous gens). It has significant mythology connected to it, and is obtained in peculiar ways, one of which is fashioned like a Legendary Encounter. It evolves at a ridiculously high level. Hell, the concept itself is that of something that would have a cocoon stage, but missed out on it somehow. The 550 Base Stat is peculiar, but surely can be put down to it having Butterfly Dance, an obscenely powerful move. Pretty much everything points it to being a counterpart with Sazandorah as the two pseudo-legendaries of Generation 5. [[User:N-Denizen|N-Denizen]] 23:30, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
:Nope, needs to have the stats and isn't a {{type|Dragon}}. {{p|Haxorus}} isn't considered Pseudo-legendary because of stats and it IS a {{t|Dragon}}. --[[User:Landfish7|'''Land''']][[User talk:Landfish7|'''fish7''']]''' 23:34, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
::{{p|Tyranitar|They don't have to be a Dragon}} {{p|Metagross|to be considered pseudo-legendary}}. But yeah, Ulgamoth has the wrong stats and it only has two stages. --[[Tracey Sketchit|'''ケンジ''']][[User talk:Kenji-girl|'''の''']][[User:Kenji-girl|'''ガール''']] 00:40, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
:::Thanks for the clarification User Kenji-girl. --[[User:Landfish7|'''Land''']][[User talk:Landfish7|'''fish7''']]''' 23:33, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
:I would agree on Volcarona being intended to be something special, but not the same thing as pseudo-legends. It is something new and different, even if similar. [[User:Eriorguez|Eriorguez]] 13:55, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
::The only problem I see then is that it's left in a weird limbo. It's not a "legendary" because it can breed, and despite being a Champion's ace, apparently not a pseudo-legendary. I think it's significant enough to classified as something surely. [[User:N-Denizen|N-Denizen]] 20:12, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
:::I would like to disagree with everyone that opposes Volcarona as a Pseudo-Legendary. Just have a look at nearly every other Bug type that came before it for instance, and you'll notice that ALL tend to have stats below 400 or very rarely reaching 500 or higher. In nearly all games before B/W it was almost like a rule or some sort, or a tradition. Perhaps Volcarona lives up to this tradition even with B/W's upgrade to Bug types. As a Bug type, it would not be able to have as high of stats as other types if it followed this old tradition, so that would explain Volcarona's BST of 550 instead of 600. Another possible explaination is probably just an excuse to make it have a lower BST than Genesect. The big seal to all this is that Alder uses Volcarona as his main Pokemon. Why would it be used as his main if it wasn't a Pseudo-Legendary? Why just have something random instead of a Psuedo-legendary or even a Legendary? It all starts to make sense when you think about it. Volcarona, though having a lower BST than the other Pseudo-Legends, still has the exact same kind of power you'd expect from one due to it's gargantuan stats compared to other Bug types. Even Genesect feels very weak in comparison to Volcarona, as well as giving Tyranitar and Metagross something to fear and respect at the same time. So the point of all of this is, it would seem reasonable to accept Volcarona as a Pseudo-Legend due to past treatment of Bug types in general. Besides, doesn't it seem more like a fan idea to have them required to have a BST of 600 and be a 3 stage line? What if GF has their own requirements to the idea and simply design them as they please? For a Bug type to fill this role, all of this would make alot of sense. Why simply believe a Pseudo-Legend requires those things only because of past tradition from Gen I-IV? Wouldn't it be fair for a Bug type Pseudo-Legend to exist yet still follow the tradition of Bug types having lower Base stats than others? [[User:Shiramu Kuromu|Shiramu Kuromu]] 20:36, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
::::Pseudo-legendary is a fan term, so fans determine the requirements. It is based on a pattern we as fans have detected in each generation? Being "strong" has nothing to do with being pseudo-legendary (other than that pseudo-legendary requires a 600 BST). Champion usage does not make something pseudo-legendary, even if it is their primary Pokémon. Alder doesn't use a legendary Pokémon because they are restricted to battle facility Trainers and storyline events. They did not fit it into their previous pattern. Anything that breaks the mold is not bending the pattern, but rejecting it. What does Volcarona have in common with actual pseudo-legendary Pokémon? If we let Volcarona in, then the definition of pseudo-legendary becomes "has two types, needs 1,250,000 exp to get to level 100". Now, if you look at {{cat|Pokémon in the Slow experience group|this list of Pokémon in that experience group}} and pick out all the dual typed Pokémon, excluding legendary Pokémon, you can see just how many there are. To name a few, {{p|Abomasnow}}, {{p|Aggron}}, {{p|Sharpedo}}, {{p|Lanturn}}. And that is only a few of them. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 11:49, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
:::::Now you're being just biased about all this. Why do they all need BSTs of 600? Can't Volcarona be the exception due to it's Bug typing? Even if Dual typed and Slow exp group were the only requirements now, it would all still be the same, since Volcarona would be the only Pseudo-Legend that doesn't fill the previous 600 BST requirement. All you seem to be trying to do is sticking too much to tradition, because honestly, I thought you'd stick with the 1st to 4th gen's Pseudo-Legend tradition of Attack being the highest stat when it was revealed Hydreigon's highest was Special Attack instead. Due to that, I thought everybody would be biased with even it due to favoring Special Attack instead. Volcarona, when compared to Aggron of Flygon, makes far more sense as a Pseudo-Legendary. Honestly, I think of Pseudo-Legendaries having the highest BST of all non-legendaries out of one of their types. Dragonite, Salamence, Garchomp, and Hydreigon have the highest Base Stat total of all non-legendary Dragon types, Tyranitar has the highest of all Non-legendary Rock types, and the highest for Dark types along with Hydreigon. Metagross has the highest out of all Non-legendary Steel and Psychic types. Volcarona has the highest of all Non-legendary Bug types. It all makes sense when you consider how a Pseudo-Legendary could be designed with that in mind. [[User:Shiramu Kuromu|Shiramu Kuromu]] 21:56, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
::::::In other words, think of it this way:

::::::-Non-legendary.
::::::-Evolves atleast once.
::::::-Highest Base Stat total of atleast one of their types.
::::::-Dual typed.
::::::-Slow Experience group.

::::::With this in mind, ONLY Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamence, Metagross, Garchomp, Hydreigon, and Volcarona fit all four of these requirements. Arcanine and Slaking don't have two types, and Archeops isn't in the right Exp group and isn't the highest of either of it's types. So there you have it, problem solved. [[User:Shiramu Kuromu|Shiramu Kuromu]] 22:18, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
:::::::So what you're saying is that we should change the currently accepted definition of Pseudo-legendary just because you want Volcarona to be one. Not gonna happen.

:::::::Besides, Ghetsis is the last opponent in the story, and he uses a Hydreigon, but not a Volcarona. Not that final opponent usage matters, as Tyranitar was first used by Blue in FR/LG and was still considered a Pseudo-legendary in Gen II. - [[User:Blazios|Blazios]] [[User Talk:Blazios|talk]] 09:29, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
::::::::ALDER is the last, not Ghetsis man. ALDER uses VOLCARONA, not Hydreigon. [[User:Shiramu Kuromu|Shiramu Kuromu]] 17:15, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
:::::::::The ''main story'' ends with Ghetsis, not Alder. Alder is postgame. - [[User:Blazios|Blazios]] [[User Talk:Blazios|talk]] 17:56, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

== METAGROSS ==

In BW you can find wild Metang and metagross in Giant Casm. So it is'nt really a Pseudo-Legandary. --[[User:Nazirbashir|Nazirbashir]] 11:04, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
:And you can find wild Dragonair and Dragonite near the Dragonsprial Tower. What does not being found in the wild have to do with being a pseudo legendary? --[[Tracey Sketchit|'''ケンジ''']][[User talk:Kenji-girl|'''の''']][[User:Kenji-girl|'''ガール''']] 11:13, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

== Did anyone mention... ==
that ALL Pseudo-Legendaries have immunities? It's true you know.
:It was in the trivia section, I swear...must've been removed for some reason (wtf deletionists) [[User:Frugali|Frugali]] 09:08, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
: : Kind of pointless to mention because they are not the only one with immunities. Lots of Pokemon have immunities to one type or another. [[User:Frozen Fennec|Frozen Fennec]]

== Coincidences. ==

Didn't want to start an edit war, so I'm just going to post here to see what others think. So far as i know, and as far as I believe the fandom is concerned, the only defining traits of a pseudo legend are that they have a base stat total of 600 and that they evolve. I myself was unaware that they all need 1.25 million experience points to hit level 100. Does anyone else think that that fact in the definition in the opening paragraph is extraneous? [[User:RB Golbat|RB Golbat]] 15:20, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
:Simply put, no. Espially if all six of them have that trait. [[User:Truthseeker4449|Truth]][[User talk:Truthseeker4449|seeker]][[Special:Contributions/Truthseeker4449|4449]] 02:05, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
::Let's face it, you ask anyone who plays Pokemon, and they'll give you the 600 BST Evolution definition. Did Nintendo give them all the same amount of experience at level 100 on purpose? Probably. Is that how people define Pseudo Legendary? No. And since this page is a fan definition, then it should use what most people refer to it as. [[User:RB Golbat|RB Golbat]] 02:15, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
:::Many Pokémon need 1.25 Million exp to get to level 100, but they're not classed as Pseudo legendary (for obvius reasons such as Base stat=/=600). So I agree with RB, remove it.--[[User:Force Fire|'''F''']][[Reshiram (Pokémon)|orce]][[User talk:Force Fire|'''F''']][[Zekrom (Pokémon)|ire]] 02:22, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
::::It's been a week since I last asked, and it's a 1-1 split by people who aren't me. So here is a one week bump to try to solicit opinions, before seeing that no one else cares and changing it back to the way i changed it. [[User:RB Golbat|RB Golbat]] 14:50, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

== Slaking ==

I am aware that an argument has already been brought up to add Slaking to the list. I think it should be added, for the following reasons. From what I understand, the definition here of a Pseudo-Legendary is (a) it can't be legendary. (b) It must evolve twice. It is not part of the definition that all of them must be dual typed, nor that they must have an immunity. This is simply a trait that all of the current members of the list happen to share. The third part of the current definition is that all of them must have exactly 600 BST. This is the part I don't understand. I can understand why it would be nice to have a requirement for at least 600, but why does it have to be exact? This brings us to Slaking. It has the highest base stats of any non-legendary. It evolves twice. Why should it be denied the position of being pseudo-legendary for being too powerful? Pseudo-legendary means "resembling a legendary", and legendaries are supposed to be powerful. There are 16 legendaries with a BST over 600, and 11 even higher than Slaking's. In terms of its lack of a second type, 22 out of 47 legendaries are single-typed. Slaking's lack of a second type definitely should not exclude it from being a pseudo-legendary. [[User:Tk3141|Tk3141]] 22:19, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
:''Slaking, though not pseudo-legendary, has the highest base stats of all non-legendary Pokémon and one immunity, to the Ghost-type. However, it lacks some factors: a base-stat total of 600 and a secondary type. Slaking is also hindered by its ability, Truant, which is likely the reason for its high stats. '' From this page. However I would say the biggest reason it is not on here is because Truant truly cripples any astounding power it has. The only time to experience its true full potential is in a double battle with a Pokemon that uses Skill Swap on it so it can attack every turn rather than half the turns. ''[[User:Frozen Fennec|Frozen]] [[User talk:Frozen Fennec|Fennec]]'' 22:24, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
::As I mentioned above, however, I don't think that a secondary type or an exact BST should be part of the definition. Yes, Truant does cripple Slaking, but it is technically speculation which says that this is the reason for its high stats. It is a non-legendary that has an even higher BST than any others on the list. [[User:Tk3141|Tk3141]] 02:22, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
:::It is a fandom-defined term. This is the definition. We only report was it, not make it the way it is. The fandom says BST must equal 600, so Slaking is not pseudo-legendary. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 12:28, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
::::Might we want to review this definition, though? If we want the list to consist of those who are "like legendaries", we shouldn't restrict the list to dual types, as almost half of legendaries are single-typed. Similarly, less than half of legendaries have a BST of exactly 600. "The fandom" is, in my opinion, a vague term; it can't be that everybody agrees on the same point. [[User:Tk3141|Tk3141]] 16:22, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
:::::This page is a description of a fan term which describes all Pokémon which have, thus far, followed a specific pattern. Until the fans choose to recognize a Pokémon which Game Freak has made defy the pattern, no changes to the definition should be needed.--[[User:MisterE13|Mister]][[User talk:MisterE13|'''E''']][[Special:Contributions/MisterE13|13]] 00:21, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
::::::Pseudo-legendary, while it does mean "like legendary", it is not a group that includes all Pokémon that are similar to legendary Pokémon, it is a group of Pokémon that follow a certain pattern (which causes them to be powerful). "The fandom" refers to the general fan consensus; not everybody agrees, but most people concede to this definition. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 06:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

== So seriously, what's the definition? ==

As I pointed out above (and nearly no one responded), if the sixth gen introduces a non-legendary Pokemon with a 600 BST with only one type will we say that it's not pseudolegendary, or will we just change the definition of what a psuedolegendary is? Why is having two types or a specific level-up curve considered a ''necessary condition'' to being a pseudolegendary rather than just a trait all of the current ones happen to have? Indeed, given that you can completely remove either restriction or both of them and not change the list of pseudolegendary Pokemon ''at all'' (you can't do so with the 600 BST or the fact that they come from evolutionary families), I'd say Occam's Razor would slice away those unnecessary conditions. --[[User:HeroicJay|HeroicJay]] 07:09, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
: PS. I'd like to point out that the opening paragraph used to mention that all pseudos had Attack as their highest stat, though it wisely did not include that as a part of the definition of what makes a pseudo a pseudo. [[Hydreigon|Now it doesn't say that any more.]] Just sayin'. --[[User:HeroicJay|HeroicJay]] 07:26, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
::The pseudolegendaries are variations on a theme. The dual types and stats are part of that theme. Single type would suggest that there's an underlying difference. Experience group makes them hard to raise, suggesting that they're all very similar. Like PP of moves, experience group is an indicator of the similarity of Pokemon. If Nintendo feel the need to make it a lower experience group, that makes it easier to raise, suggesting that there are underlying differences - the Pokemon are not considered equal. Stats like that aren't just a random choice. [[User:Werdnae|Werdnae]] [[User talk:Werdnae|(talk)]] 20:01, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
:::I can't say I agree. We can say that the two types and the level-up curve are traits they all have, at present, but how is it part of the definition? If you remove those restrictions, the number of pseudolegendary Pokemon remains six, so those restrictions aren't helping with the definition and just unnecessarily restrict possible future psuedolegendaries. I was asked to provide a source that they're not necessary. Where's the source that they are? I mean, let's say, totally hypothetically, that one made a page called "Pikachu Clones" back in the fourth gen, discussing Pokemon such as Pichu, Plusle, Minun, and Pachirisu. (The usefulness of such a page isn't the point; let's just say that one existed.) At the time, they decided to define the Pokemon as "Cute mono-Electric-type Pokemon that have a resemblence to Pikachu. Aside from Pichu and Pikachu, none of the Pikachu clones evolve." Are you to say that, when the fifth gen came out, this hypothetical page would have been wrong to alter its definition and include Emolga? If so, why? And if not, then why did the definition need to include the "mono-" part of it at all if it's unnecessarily limiting and so easily discarded? --[[User:HeroicJay|HeroicJay]] 20:57, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
::::I personally don't think having two types should be part of the definition; I don't see a pure Dragon-type pseudo legendary Pokemon being that unlikely. I did a quick search, and I couldn't find any other non-forum giving a definition of pseudo-legendary Pokemon, so there is nothing stating either way. However, I would say experience group is just as important as BST. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 12:42, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
:::::No, I still stand against it. I'm being treated like I'm trying to redefine which Pokemon are pseudolegendary, and, yes, I do see that others have tried. But I'm not. Removing these two restrictions does nothing. It's Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamence, Metagross, Garchomp, and Hydreigon now. It'll be Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamence, Metagross, Garchomp, and Hydreigon if you remove those restrictions.
:::::Who made the call that they're necessary to the definition? I've been asked to source that they're not. Why must I prove the negative? It's the positive case that requires proof! Should I add a [citation needed] to the definition?
:::::If you were to remove the 600 BST part of the defintion, and still keep everything else, you'd add things like Aggron and Rhyperior to the list, so we can't do that.
:::::The "three-stage evolutionary family" thing comes off to me as a roundabout way of saying "not legendary", but I'm fine with it since legendary status can be arguable (the Legendary page on this very wiki is unsure on Phione, and even though I strongly disagree, I've even seen modern fans try to argue Rotom's legendary status.) And without it, Jirachi and Landorus are brought into the list of "pseudolegendaries", so obviously that restriction is necessary, regardless of the wording.
:::::But why type combos? Why experience groups? Removing them changes what? Is there a 600-BST three-stage mono-type family in the medium-slow group that is clearly not pseudolegendary I'm somehow unfamiliar with? (Well, Slaking has a 6'''7'''0 BST and three stages and is a monotype, though he is in the Slow group, but... Truant is all it takes to convince me he's not a proper pseudolegendary. And he's the closest there is, besides the obvious six!)
:::::As I said, if you were to put on the side (in Trivia or something) that all of them, at present, are dualtypes in the Slow experience group, you wouldn't see me argue - it's true, after all. But to put it in the definition, as if to say "Pokémon without these traits can't be pseudolegendary"... I jusst don't see it. --[[User:HeroicJay|HeroicJay]] 18:31, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
::::::Thing is, pseudo-legendary is the observation of a pattern and nothing more. When they all fit it and it is likely that they will continue fitting a condition, it should be treated as part of the definition. No, removing the experience group condition does not remove anything, but that condition is really for restricting what we may get next generation. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 15:02, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
:::::::Next generation, if we get a Pokemon with a BST of 600 who is at the top of a three-stage evolution family in the medium-slow experience group instead of slow, and it doesn't have any major negative traits like Truant, do you really think the fandom isn't going to call it a pseudo-legendary? Do you honestly believe most of the fandom - who defined the term - even cares about experience curves that much? And can you provide a source on it? --[[User:HeroicJay|HeroicJay]] 22:41, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
::::::::There is no source (BP was the only fansite I could find that actually defined pseudo-legendary outside of "means Dragonite, Tyranitar, Metagross, Garchomp, Hydreigon"), because GF has never officially mentioned the pattern anywhere, but the pattern is obvious enough that the fandom has noticed it. Knowing the fandom—who tried and push Volcarona and Haxorus into being pseudo-legendary—there will certainly be many people who think it should be. However, it won't truly be one. I don't see that ever happening though, as experience group is part of the pattern. Even if something had a BST of 600, three-stage evolutionary family and medium-slow experience group but had Truant, it would still be pseudo-legendary. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 15:18, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
:::::::::Isn't that a contradiction? (Did you get your experience groups confused?) And if something can be pseudolegendary with Truant, then Slaking should definitely count, since his stats are way higher than the existing pseudolegendaries (NOTE: I do not consider Slaking a pseudolegendary, I'm just saying that the logic doesn't flow.) --[[User:HeroicJay|HeroicJay]] 18:21, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
::::::::::Truant is irrelevant; its BST is not 600, so it does not fit the pattern. And yes, I meant slow experience group (I meant to check that before I saved). --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 12:31, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
:::::::::::I would argue that, though it's not a very specific or encyclopedic definition, a pseudo-legendary Pokemon would be a non-legendary Pokemon as strong, stat-wise, as legendaries. By that simple definition, Slaking easily fits the bill... or, rather, he would, except Truant limits his strength. (Well, Regigigas is similarly hindered, but all the same...) Now that said, all pseudos that exist have 600; there's no argument here and it works to say it. But the rest of it is redundant, adds nothing to the definition, and is something we'll just have to retcon away the moment GameFreak decides to contradict it.
:::::::::::BTW, Does ''anyone else at all'' have any input? Anyone? I've notived that a lot of Bulbapedia discussions go nowhere fast; at best, they wind up arguments between two or three users, like, say, this one. --[[User:HeroicJay|HeroicJay]] 22:59, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
::::::::::::If you ask any fan what they define psuedo legendary as, they would say a three stage evolution line with a 600 BST in the final stage. Two types and experience are not what you would get with most fans definition. Since this is a fandom term, we should use the definition most fans use. [[User:RB Golbat|RB Golbat]] ([[User talk:RB Golbat|talk]]) 21:47, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Pesudo-legendary is a fan term to describe an intentional pattern. Experience group is part of this part of the pattern. Therefore, it should be considered part of the definition. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 03:06, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
::::::::::::::It's part of the "pattern" that people only learn about when they read this page. Regardless of if it's a pattern or not, it's not what the fandom defined definition is. [[User:RB Golbat|RB Golbat]] ([[User talk:RB Golbat|talk]]) 03:15, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
(unindenting) [http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue21/best_of_best Here is one example] of the term being define without the dual typing or the experience mentioned. I'm sure I can find more online later when not at work. [[User:RB Golbat|RB Golbat]] ([[User talk:RB Golbat|talk]]) 10:47, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

== Champion Iris with Hydreigon ==

You should add that. [[User:Chomper4|Chomper4]] ([[User talk:Chomper4|talk]]) 00:36, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

== Pseudo-Pseudo-Legendary ==

Maybe we should have a pseudo-pseudo legendary page or section for all the almost pseudo-legendary pokemon (That don't quite fit the requirements but are still considered near-legendary pokemon. This is just after reading the whole talk page about the controversy... {{unsigned|Yor2cool}}
:That would result in debates over what counts as almost fitting the category. The definition debates all assume the same Pokémon as already part of the group. There are no Pokémon that are debatably pseudo-legendary Pokémon. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 12:49, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

== Something unique about Metagross ==

Should it be noted that Metagross is the only Pseudo who doesn't resist, but in fact has a weakness to, fire? [[User:DragonMasterNeal|DragonMasterNeal]] ([[User talk:DragonMasterNeal|talk]]) 19:10, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

== Ability capitalization ==

A user with permission could change "ability" to "Ability" in the Tyranitar section. [[User:Yvnr|Yvnr]] ([[User talk:Yvnr|talk]]) 19:01, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

== Seriously? ==

Why is this page protected? I wanted to add something to Others. [[User:Stickipedia|Stickipedia]] ([[User talk:Stickipedia|talk]]) 21:51, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
:As the protection log notes: "''As this is a subject of constant debate, editing is restricted. Requests can be made on the talk page.''" - [[User:Kogoro|'''Kogoro''']] '''-''' [[User talk:Kogoro|'''Talk to me''']] - 21:57, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

== Tyranitar as main Pokemon of an NPC trainer ==

* "Only pseudo-legendary Pokémon that is not the main Pokémon of a major boss at the end of the game it was introduced in. However, Tyranitar was used by Blue in Pokémon FireRed and LeafGreen Versions, but only in his rematch."

Tyranitar (as a [[Shadow Pokémon]]) was also [[Evice]]'s main Pokémon, in the final battle of [[Pokémon Colosseum]]. I think this is an interesting addition we can make to that note. --''[[User:Stratelier|Stratelier]]'' 05:18, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

== Minor RFEs ==

Playing the Grammar Nazi card....

Under the Metagross section, there is this line:

:"This is likely why Metagross is the only pseudo-legendary Pokémon not to be used by Lance in any game, as he prefers Dragon-type and '''draconian''' Pokémon."

The correct word is ''draconic''; the word 'draconian' means '[http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/draconian severely harsh or strict]'.

And under Garchomp's section:

:"It '''compliments''' these attributes with '''it's''' Ground typing,"

Wrong 'its', no apostrophe required. And it should probably use compl'''e'''ment instead of compl'''i'''ment.

--''[[User:Stratelier|Stratelier]]'' 05:29, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

== Use by gym leaders ==

Should we add some of the gym leaders (in their various types of rematches and the PWT) as users of the pseudo-legendaries, and possibly the Elite Four? For example, Brock with Tyranitar and Giovanni and Clair with Garchomp. --[[User:Darthrai|Darthrai]] ([[User talk:Darthrai|talk]]) 01:28, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

== Pokémon Pages ==
I'm bringing this up here because it seems silly to go to each individual page to say it...
Should the Pokémon's actual pages really say that they're "pseudo-legendary Pokémon" up at the top? I mean, by definition it is a '''fan term''', so I don't think it belongs there with their typing and evolutionary patterns. Maybe in their trivia sections, but not there. It looks very unprofessional to stick a fan-term at the top of the pages of these Pokémon, otherwise you might as well change Snivy's opening text to "Snivy (fannon: Smugleaf)". It's just as ridiculous. [[User:Me, Hurray!|Me, Hurray!]] ([[User talk:Me, Hurray!|talk]]) 14:11, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
Actually, a better comparison would be changing all of Eevee's evolutionary family pages to say "X is a Y-type Eeveelution". What I'm saying is, I don't think fan terminology belongs there. [[User:Me, Hurray!|Me, Hurray!]] ([[User talk:Me, Hurray!|talk]]) 14:14, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
:Eeveelution has actually became canon term (first used in [http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/8/8c/Pok%C3%A9mon_Stadium_2_-_Nintendo_Player%27s_Guide_p120.jpg Stadium 2 guide], then later in TCG Theme Deck... plus in-game in Shadows of Almia). [[User:Marked +-+-+|Marked +-+-+]] ([[User talk:Marked +-+-+|talk]]) 14:22, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
::Fine, make that edit then, but that's not my point. "Pseudo-legendary" is not an official term, its a fan term. This is not Smogon, this is an encyclopaedia. [[User:Me, Hurray!|Me, Hurray!]] ([[User talk:Me, Hurray!|talk]]) 14:08, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

== Edit request ==

Since this page seems to be under indefinite protection, I'm forced to request here instead of waiting out the protection. There are three instances of the word '''typing''' being incorrectly used as a noun, which you can find by CTRL+F. Can these please be changed to simply '''type'''? [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 17:43, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

== Metagross in Gen III ==

I think it is worth mentioning that Metagross is the only pseudo-legendary that cannot be obtain in the generation it was released in, before defeating the elite four. [[User:Benjabby|Benjabby]] ([[User talk:Benjabby|talk]]) 10:19, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
:The same goes for Tyranitar.--'''[[User:Dennou Zenshi|電禅]][[User talk:Dennou Zenshi|Den Zen]]''' 10:24, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

== Trivia ==

Should it be added that only [[Tyranitar]] and [[Metagross]] aren't partially dragon-type? [[User:Nutter Butter|Nutter Butter]] ([[User talk:Nutter Butter|talk]]) 20:23, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
:[[Pseudo-legendary Pokémon#Other|It is there.]]--'''[[User:Dennou Zenshi|電禅]][[User talk:Dennou Zenshi|Den Zen]]''' 20:48, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

== Goodra ==

So, if Goodra is to be included, it would mean A) Goodra is the first pure type, B) Goodra has the highest Sp.Def./the only 1 with Sp.Def. its highest stat/has the lowest Att. C) Dragonite is no longer the only pseudo portrayed as friendly, D) Hydreigon is no longer the only pseudo with a type immunity via ability (Goodra's Sap Sipper), E) Goodra is the only pseudo who is not necessarily immune to a type (since it has 2 other abilities), F) Goodra is the only pseudo with additional evolutionary conditions, G) Goodra is the only pseudo whose mid-stage is available in its debut games. Anything else? --[[User:Mr. Bonding|Mr. Bonding]] ([[User talk:Mr. Bonding|talk]]) 01:34, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

<blockquote> "Dragonite is no longer the only pseudo portrayed as friendly" </blockquote>
:Wait what? I'm going to need explanation for this one. [[User:Benjabby|Benjabby]] ([[User talk:Benjabby|talk]]) 20:00, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
::Dragonite-Guides crews of shipwrecks to shore, kindhearted. Goodra-Hugs trainer. [[User:RespectThePixel|RespectThePixel]] ([[User talk:RespectThePixel|talk]]) 00:51, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

== There are seven pseudo-legendaries now ==

enough said. ~--[[User:Dapianoman|Dapianoman]] ([[User talk:Dapianoman|talk]]) 01:45, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

== Users ==

Goodra is also used by Shauna in X&Y. Just a small thing that I would add if I could :L [[User:Benjabby|Benjabby]] ([[User talk:Benjabby|talk]]) 19:44, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
:It's already in the article. --[[User:S2daam|--samm :D]] 19:55, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

== Goodra Description ==

Shall I make the description for Goodra or is someone else assigned to it? [[User:RespectThePixel|RespectThePixel]] ([[User talk:RespectThePixel|talk]]) 00:55, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

== Images for Goomy and Sligoo on the chart ==

You messed it up. Goomy's image is where Sliggoo's should be and vice versa. [[User:StongRadd|StongRadd]] ([[User talk:StongRadd|talk]]) 03:01, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

== Mega Evolutions ==

Should it be noted that Tyranitar and Garchomp both receive Mega Evolutions in Gen VI?--[[User:Darkmaster|Darkmaster]] ([[User talk:Darkmaster|talk]]) 04:58, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

== Counting error ==

With the addition of Goodra, there are now seven pseudo-legendary Pokemon, not 6. pikalax 22:44, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

== Mistaken ==

Pseudo-legendary is a fanmade term, and the definition of pseudo-legendary varies from fan to fan. So why does it say Pokémon like Flygon, Aggron, Kingdra, et cetera are mistaken for pseudo-legendaries? While they may not be pseudo-legendaries in one fan's terms, Garchomp may not be pseudo-legendary in another fan's terms. [[User:Bill Gates|Bill Gates]] ([[User talk:Bill Gates|talk]]) 21:53, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
:They are not pseudo-legendary by the definition agreed upon by Bulbapedia and metagame websites. Individual people who don't bother to look into things like stats may mistakenly think that "pseudo-legendary" is just a term that means nearly or almost legendary, when it is actually a very specific term for a very specific kind of Pokemon. [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 21:57, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
::Most metagame websites don't list Goodra as pseudo-legendary. [[User:Bill Gates|Bill Gates]] ([[User talk:Bill Gates|talk]]) 17:49, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
:::But according to Bulbapedia's description of a pseudo-legendary, and unless I am very mistaken, this wiki is indeed Bulbapedia, it is a pseudo-legendary, which is why it's on the page. ☆[[User:Solar Dragon|The]] [[User talk:Solar Dragon|Solar]] [[Special:Contributions/Solar Dragon|Dragon]]☆ 17:51, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
::::Bulbapedia's description is not the only description out there, and my point is no Pokémon can be "mistaken" for a pseudo-legendary. [[User:Bill Gates|Bill Gates]] ([[User talk:Bill Gates|talk]]) 01:14, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
:::::Yes, but this is Bulbapedia, that is the description that Bulbapedia has settled on for what a pseudo legendary is and so that is why Goodra is on the list. There are other definitions out there with some of those other Pokémon coming into them, which is why, by Bulbapedia's definition, they are mistaken. ☆[[User:Solar Dragon|The]] [[User talk:Solar Dragon|Solar]] [[Special:Contributions/Solar Dragon|Dragon]]☆ 22:45, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
::::::Pseudo-legendary is a fan term to describe an existing pattern. Goodra fits this pattern, so it is pseudo-legendary. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 03:18, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

== mainly shared weakness? ==

I've noticed every single pseudo-legendary has the fairy weakness besides metagross. That could be something to consider. {{unsigned|Nerdandrew}}
:Sure, notable trivia if all of them had the weakness. However, "All but one" is not notable trivia. ☆[[User:Solar Dragon|The]] [[User talk:Solar Dragon|Solar]] [[Special:Contributions/Solar Dragon|Dragon]]☆ 16:43, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
::I think it can be added to the "Individual characteristics" section, though.--'''[[User:Dennou Zenshi|電禅]][[User talk:Dennou Zenshi|Den Zen]]''' 16:51, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

== Information about Goodra ==

Can admins add information about Goodra since the page is locked, thank you and remember it is the only pseudo-legendary to have one type: Dragon (which it usually had). [[User:Cinday123|Cinday123]] ([[User talk:Cinday123|talk]]) 04:35, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

== "All pseudo-legendary Pokémon have appeared in the anime" ==

Which isn't true, now that we have Goodra with Gen VI. Alteration, maybe? -- [[User:Pringles|Pringles]] 05:05, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
:By the end of any given generation, all Pokemon (regardless of pseudo-legendary status) have appeared in the anime except Porygon2 and Porygon-Z, so I feel like saying that on this page is unnecessary altogether. [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 05:12, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

== Sprites into artwork ==

Can any admin turn these sprites into artwork since the page is protected. [[User:Cinday123|Cinday123]] ([[User talk:Cinday123|talk]]) 05:21, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Admins, since we're in Generation VI, could you turn sprites into artwork so that is my commet above. And turn Goodra's Dream World artwork into a Sugimori artwork. [[User:Cinday123|Cinday123]] ([[User talk:Cinday123|talk]]) 05:03, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
:Thanks, one down, six to go, can you turn Dragonite, Tyraniter, Salamence, Metagross, Garchomp and Hydreigon's sprites into artwork? [[User:Cinday123|Cinday123]] ([[User talk:Cinday123|talk]]) 05:33, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

== Only pseudo-legendary Pokémon to not have any 4× weaknesses. ==

This is false. With the introduction of Goodra, Metagross is no longer the only pseudo-legendary with 4x weaknesses. Goodra has only one type, and therefore can't have any 4x weakness. I would edit this myself, but I can't. [[User:Svolur|Svolur]] ([[User talk:Svolur|talk]]) 04:23, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

== Error regarding Sliggoo ==

"Pseudo-legendary Pokémon are obtainable in the wild strictly in their first form for the first paired games of their generation." This is not true since in X/Y there are wild Sliggoo. [[User:Shepeedy|Shepeedy]] ([[User talk:Shepeedy|talk]]) 12:59, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
:"Due to having the same typing as Dragonite, Salamence differs itself by being entirely focused on attacking prowess. It's stats are high in Attack, Special Attack, and Speed, while comparatively low in both Defense stats." Please correct that "it's" and ban whoever wrote it. [[User:Shepeedy|Shepeedy]] ([[User talk:Shepeedy|talk]]) 23:07, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
:Another typo on the page: "psuedo-legendary". --[[User:Raijinili|Raijinili]] ([[User talk:Raijinili|talk]]) 09:10, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

== A few changes... ==

:1. (3.2.8 Other) Dragonite and Tyranitar's Special Defenses of 100 pale in comparison to Goodra's 150.
:2. (3.3 Users) Last I checked, Shauna is neither an Elite 4 member nor a Champion, and so should probably be included in the second list (which, by the way, already has more than three examples, with two of them being outside of Diamond, Pearl and Platinum).
:3. (4 In the anime) "newly introduced" should be changed to "newly-introduced".
Thanks. -- [[User:EnosShayrem|EnosShayrem]][[User_talk:EnosShayrem|talk]] 02:35, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
:On that last one — it's incorrect to use a hyphen after a -ly word, per AP style guidelines. I quote from the AP Stylebook 2012, page 301 of the punctuation guide, under the entry on hyphens: ''"COMPOUND MODIFIERS: When a compound modifier — two or more words that express as single concept — precedes a noun, use hyphens to link all the words in the compound except the adverb very and all adverbs that end in -ly."'' [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 02:53, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
::Ah! You learn something new every day. Also, a few more things:
:::4. (2 Characteristics) That second paragraph needs rewriting; I propose: "The base stages of pseudo-legendary Pokémon have base stat totals of 300, while their first evolutions have base stat totals of 420, excluding Pupitar and Gabite, which have 410. In general, pseudo-legendary Pokémon have Attack as their highest stat. This is not the case with Hydreigon and Goodra, which have Special Attack and Special Defense as their highest stats, respectively."
:::5. (3.2.1 Dragonite) The last sentence should be removed, what with the very affectionate, and might I add adorable, Goodra.
:::6. (3.3 Users) It should be somehow mentioned that in Black and White 2's Challenge Mode, Caitlin's use of Metagross extends to her first battle.
::-- [[User:EnosShayrem|EnosShayrem]][[User_talk:EnosShayrem|talk]] 02:55, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
::::Did 5 and 6. I have removed the entire "Characteristics" section because it was just making statements that kept building up more and more exceptions. 1 was dealt with ages ago. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 02:37, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

== Goomy line's catch rate ==

It was confirmed that the Goomy line's catch rate is 20, not 45, will admins add information about the catch rates because this line and the Beldum line do not have a catch rate of 45. --[[User:Cinday123|Cinday123]] ''([[User talk:Cinday123|Talk]])'' 02:56, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
:Oh sorry, we don't know the Goomy line's catch rate until the catch rates of Kalos Pokémon are from the official sources, my bad. --[[User:Cinday123|Cinday123]] ''([[User talk:Cinday123|Talk]])'' 07:08, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

==Spelling and the Goomy line==
Because Legendary Pokémon are spelled as 'legendary', could someone change it to 'Legendary' according to a user's Pokémon Syntax? Also, the Goomy line are not next to the Legendary Pokémon and Sliggoo doesn't have a BST of 420, which instead had a BST of 452. --[[User:Cinday123|Cinday123]] ''([[User talk:Cinday123|Talk]])'' 07:08, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
:I'm happy to leave "psuedo-legendary" as that, since it's a fan term and doesn't necessarily have to fit the same capitalization standard as "Legendary Pokémon". This is mainly because I don't feel like going through and doing all the relinking though—it would be way easier conceptually if it was written as "pseudo-Legendary". --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 02:37, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

== Additional fact ==

Under the list of exceptions to the Elite Four and Champions being the only people to use pseudo-legendaries, can someone add that Roark uses a Tyranitar during the rematches at the Battleground in Platinum? [[User:Aggron989|''AGG'']][[User talk:Aggron989|''RON'']][[Special:Contributions/Aggron989|''989'']] 22:21, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
:That whole exceptions section was meant to be for only the three Trainers in DPPt that used pseudo-legendaries, but it just kept building up with examples from other games. I've removed it, since it is no longer accurate. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 02:37, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

== Pokédex placement ==

"With the exception of the Garchomp and Hydreigon evolutionary lines, pseudo-legendary Pokémon are usually situated adjacent to the legendary trios in the Pokédexes of their respective generations"

This line actually isn't correct anymore, the Goodra line is next to Karrablast and Quagsire in regional, with Klefki in national. And since it's only one 4/7 of the Pokémon, I don't think it's really notable anymore. -[[User:IVsaur|EVsandIVsaurs]] 15:31, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
:Correct. [[User:Pikachu Bros.|Pikachu Bros.]] ([[User talk:Pikachu Bros.|talk]]) 16:56, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
::I have removed the entire "Characteristics" section because it was just making statements that kept building up more and more exceptions. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 02:37, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

== This Page Should Be Deleted ==

<nowiki>*</nowiki>Rolls Eyes* This is a wiki, and wikis deal in factual information, not user-created lists and categories... By this logic, every wiki for game that have mod support should have an individual page for every user-created mod. I don't see a legitimate reason as to why this page should exist, as it in no way fits in with the content template every page on Bulbapedia is based off of... [[User:Ulithium Dragon|Ulithium Dragon]] ([[User talk:Ulithium Dragon|talk]]) 21:59, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
:See [[{{FULLPAGENAME}}#What???|What???]]. [[User:Pikachu Bros.|Pikachu Bros.]] ([[User talk:Pikachu Bros.|talk]]) 22:04, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
::This page desribes a clear pattern of Pokémon that Game Freak has put into the game. We just use he fan name to describe them, because there is no official one. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 02:37, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

== Does three stage evolution really matters? ==

I got a doubt, does three stage evolution really matters, because many pokemon like heracross has a base stat of 600 and is a dual Bug/Fighting type. Its signature move Megahorn is the most powerful bug type move, and it's movepool contains some powerful moves like Earthquack and Focuspunch with its base stat comes par with legendary pokemon and even has 4x damage on celebi. [[User:Tgage|Tgage]] ([[User talk:Tgage|talk]]) 12:59, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
:Yes it does, it is a vital part of the definition. By the same logic, you could ask if the 600 base stat total really matters.--'''[[User:Dennou Zenshi|電禅]][[User talk:Dennou Zenshi|Den Zen]]''' 13:12, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

== Dragonite's height ==

I saw that Tyranitar and Goodra are not the tallest non-Mega Evolved pseudo-legendary Pokémon, Dragonite is according to its height, could someone change it now? --[[User:Cinday123|Cinday123]] ''([[User talk:Cinday123|Talk]])'' 04:17, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

== Miss a trainer ==

Colress had a Metagross in his final match in Plasma Frigate --[[User:HoopsterJohn|HoopsterJohn]] ([[User talk:HoopsterJohn|talk]]) 21:22, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

== salamence ==

salamence is used by iris during rematches--[[User:Just a simple edit|Just a simple edit]] ([[User talk:Just a simple edit|talk]]) 20:13, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

== Minor fix - Bad wikilink on Garchomp ==

Should instead link to the subheading which Garchomp is under; http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/List_of_Pok%C3%A9mon_with_gender_differences#Generation_IV_Pok.C3.A9mon instead of just a link to the page.

Meteor Falls

2014-06-25T11:40:27Z

Pokepro97: /* Items */

{{Infobox location
|image=Meteor Falls exterior E.png
|image_size=290
|type=cave
|location_name=Meteor Falls
|japanese_name=りゅうせいのたき
|translated_name=Meteor Falls
|location=Between {{rt|114|Hoenn}} and {{rt|115|Hoenn}}
|region=Hoenn
|generation={{gen|III}}
}}

'''Meteor Falls''' (Japanese: '''りゅうせいのたき''' ''Meteor Falls'') is a location in [[Hoenn]]. It is a large [[cave]] west of [[Fallarbor Town]] with a waterfall inside.

In {{game2|Ruby|Sapphire|Emerald}}, [[Team Magma]]{{sup/3|R}}{{sup/3|E}} or [[Team Aqua]]{{sup/3|S}} will steal a {{key|III|meteorite}} from [[Professor Cozmo]] at Meteor Falls. Afterwards, they will go to [[Mt. Chimney]], while Professor Cozmo returns to Fallarbor Town.

[[Steven Stone]] also appears here in Pokémon Emerald, being found deep inside a new area after the {{player}} enters the [[Hall of Fame]] and his {{OBP|Pokémon|species}} are considerably stronger than {{pkmn|Champion}} [[Wallace]]'s.

==Items==
{{Itlisth|cave}}
{{Itemlist|Moon Stone|On the left side hill in the main area of 1F|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes|display={{evostone|Moon Stone}}}}
{{Itemlist|TM Dragon|In the dead-end back room (requires {{m|Surf}} and {{m|Waterfall}})|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes|display={{TM|02|Dragon Claw}}}}
{{Itemlist|TM Steel|On the uppermost left side hill in the main room, accessed via ladder from the inner cave 1F|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes|display={{TM|23|Iron Tail}}}}
{{Itemlist|PP Up|In uppermost right side hill in the main room, accessed from the inner cave 1F (requires {{m|Surf}})|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes|display={{DL|Vitamin|PP Up}}}}
{{Itemlist|Full Heal|On the hill above the entrance to {{rt|114|Hoenn}}|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes|display={{DL|Status ailment healing item|Full Heal}}}}
{{Itemlist|Dragon Fang|[[Held item|Held]] by {{tc|Dragon Tamer}} Nicholas's {{p|Shelgon}} from the fifth battle onwards|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes|display={{DL|Type-enhancing item|Dragon Fang}}}}
{{itlistfoot|cave}}

==Pokémon==
====1F 1R====
{{catch/header|cave|no}}
{{catch/entry3|041|Zubat|yes|yes|yes|Cave|14-20|80%|type1=Poison|type2=Flying}}
{{catch/entry3|337|Lunatone|no|yes|no|Cave|14, 16, 18|20%|type1=Rock|type2=Psychic}}
{{catch/entry3|338|Solrock|yes|no|yes|Cave|14, 16, 18|20%|type1=Rock|type2=Psychic}}
{{catch/div|water|Surfing}}
{{catch/entry3|041|Zubat|yes|yes|yes|Surf|5-35|90%|type1=Poison|type2=Flying}}
{{catch/entry3|338|Solrock|yes|no|yes|Surf|5-35|10%|type1=Rock|type2=Psychic}}
{{catch/entry3|337|Lunatone|no|yes|no|Surf|5-35|10%|type1=Rock|type2=Psychic}}
{{catch/div|water|Fishing}}
{{catch/entry3|118|Goldeen|yes|yes|yes|Fish Old|5-10|30%|type1=Water}}
{{catch/entry3|129|Magikarp|yes|yes|yes|Fish Old|5-10|70%|type1=Water}}
{{catch/entry3|118|Goldeen|yes|yes|yes|Fish Good|10-30|20%|type1=Water}}
{{catch/entry3|129|Magikarp|yes|yes|yes|Fish Good|10-30|60%|type1=Water}}
{{catch/entry3|339|Barboach|yes|yes|yes|Fish Good|10-30|20%|type1=Water|type2=Ground}}
{{catch/entry3|339|Barboach|yes|yes|yes|Fish Super|20-45|100%|type1=Water|type2=Ground}}
{{catch/footer|cave}}

====1F 2R & B1F 1R====
{{catch/header|cave|no}}
{{catch/entry3|042|Golbat|yes|yes|yes|Cave|33, 35, 38, 40|65%|type1=Poison|type2=Flying}}
{{catch/entry3|337|Lunatone|no|yes|no|Cave|33, 35, 37, 39|35%|type1=Rock|type2=Psychic}}
{{catch/entry3|338|Solrock|yes|no|yes|Cave|33, 35, 37, 39|35%|type1=Rock|type2=Psychic}}
{{catch/div|water|Surfing}}
{{catch/entry3|042|Golbat|yes|yes|yes|Surf|30-35|90%|type1=Poison|type2=Flying}}
{{catch/entry3|337|Lunatone|no|yes|no|Surf|5-35|10%|type1=Rock|type2=Psychic}}
{{catch/entry3|338|Solrock|yes|no|yes|Surf|5-35|10%|type1=Rock|type2=Psychic}}
{{catch/div|water|Fishing}}
{{catch/entry3|118|Goldeen|yes|yes|yes|Fish Old|5-10|30%|type1=Water}}
{{catch/entry3|129|Magikarp|yes|yes|yes|Fish Old|5-10|70%|type1=Water}}
{{catch/entry3|118|Goldeen|yes|yes|yes|Fish Good|10-30|20%|type1=Water}}
{{catch/entry3|129|Magikarp|yes|yes|yes|Fish Good|10-30|60%|type1=Water}}
{{catch/entry3|339|Barboach|yes|yes|yes|Fish Good|10-30|20%|type1=Water|type2=Ground}}
{{catch/entry3|339|Barboach|yes|yes|yes|Fish Super|20-35|80%|type1=Water|type2=Ground}}
{{catch/entry3|340|Whiscash|yes|yes|yes|Fish Super|30-45|20%|type1=Water|type2=Ground}}
{{catch/footer|cave}}

====B1F 2R====
{{catch/header|cave|no}}
{{catch/entry3|042|Golbat|yes|yes|yes|Cave|33, 35, 38, 40|50%|type1=Poison|type2=Flying}}
{{catch/entry3|337|Lunatone|no|yes|no|Cave|35, 37, 39|25%|type1=Rock|type2=Psychic}}
{{catch/entry3|338|Solrock|yes|no|yes|Cave|35, 37, 39|25%|type1=Rock|type2=Psychic}}
{{catch/entry3|371|Bagon|yes|yes|yes|Cave|25, 30, 35|25%|type1=Dragon}}
{{catch/div|water|Surfing}}
{{catch/entry3|042|Golbat|yes|yes|yes|Surf|30-35|90%|type1=Poison|type2=Flying}}
{{catch/entry3|337|Lunatone|no|yes|no|Surf|5-35|10%|type1=Rock|type2=Psychic}}
{{catch/entry3|338|Solrock|yes|no|yes|Surf|5-35|10%|type1=Rock|type2=Psychic}}
{{catch/div|water|Fishing}}
{{catch/entry3|118|Goldeen|yes|yes|yes|Fish Old|5-10|30%|type1=Water}}
{{catch/entry3|129|Magikarp|yes|yes|yes|Fish Old|5-10|70%|type1=Water}}
{{catch/entry3|118|Goldeen|yes|yes|yes|Fish Good|10-30|20%|type1=Water}}
{{catch/entry3|129|Magikarp|yes|yes|yes|Fish Good|10-30|60%|type1=Water}}
{{catch/entry3|339|Barboach|yes|yes|yes|Fish Good|10-30|20%|type1=Water|type2=Ground}}
{{catch/entry3|339|Barboach|yes|yes|yes|Fish Super|20-35|80%|type1=Water|type2=Ground}}
{{catch/entry3|340|Whiscash|yes|yes|yes|Fish Super|30-45|20%|type1=Water|type2=Ground}}
{{catch/footer|cave}}

====Steven's cave====
{{catch/header|cave|no}}
{{catch/entry3|042|Golbat|no|no|yes|Cave|33, 35, 38, 40|65%|type1=Poison|type2=Flying}}
{{catch/entry3|338|Solrock|no|no|yes|Cave|33, 35, 37, 39|35%|type1=Rock|type2=Psychic}}
{{catch/footer|cave}}

==Trainers==
===Pokémon Ruby and Sapphire===
{{trainerheader|cave}}
{{trainerentry|Spr RS Old Couple.png|Old Couple|John and Jay|3200|2|308|Medicham|♂|40||297|Hariyama|♂|40||38=Nav|36=ゲンとハツ|37=Gen and Hatsu}}
{{trainerdiv|cave}}
{{trainerentry|Spr RS Dragon Tamer.png|Dragon Tamer|Nicolas|1824|2|334|Altaria|♂|38||334|Altaria|♂|38||38=Nav|36=タケル|37=Takeru}}
{{trainerfooter|cave|3}}

===Pokémon Emerald===
{{trainerheader|cave}}
{{trainerentry|Spr RS Old Couple.png|Old Couple|John and Jay|3120|2|308|Medicham|♂|39||297|Hariyama|♂|39||38=Nav|36=ゲンとハツ|37=Gen and Hatsu}}
{{trainerdiv|cave}}
{{trainerentry|Spr RS Dragon Tamer.png|Dragon Tamer|Nicolas|1776|2|334|Altaria|♂|37||334|Altaria|♂|37||38=Nav|36=タケル|37=Takeru}}
{{trainerfooter|cave|3}}

{{Party/Single
|color={{steel color}}
|headcolor={{steel color light}}
|bordercolor={{steel color dark}}
|sprite=Spr RS Steven.png
|prize={{PDollar}}4680
|class={{PK}}{{MN}} Trainer
|classlink=Pokémon Trainer
|name={{color2|000|Steven Stone|Steven}}
|game=E
|location=Meteor Falls
|pokemon=6}}
|{{Pokémon/3
|game=Emerald
|ndex=227
|pokemon=Skarmory
|gender=male
|level=77
|type1=Steel|type2=Flying
|ability=Keen Eye
|move1=Toxic|move1type=Poison
|move2=Spikes|move2type=Ground
|move3=Steel Wing|move3type=Steel
|move4=Aerial Ace|move4type=Flying}}
|{{Pokémon/3
|game=Emerald
|ndex=346
|pokemon=Cradily
|gender=male
|level=76
|type1=Rock|type2=Grass
|ability=Suction Cups
|move1=Confuse Ray|move1type=Ghost
|move2=Ingrain|move2type=Grass
|move3=AncientPower|move3type=Rock
|move4=Giga Drain|move4type=Grass}}
|{{Pokémon/3
|game=Emerald
|ndex=344
|pokemon=Claydol
|level=75
|type1=Ground|type2=Psychic
|ability=Levitate
|move1=Earthquake|move1type=Ground
|move2=AncientPower|move2type=Rock
|move3=Light Screen|move3type=Psychic
|move4=Reflect|move4type=Psychic}}
{{Party/Div|color={{steel color}}}}
|{{Pokémon/3
|game=Emerald
|ndex=348
|pokemon=Armaldo
|gender=male
|level=76
|type1=Rock|type2=Bug
|ability=Battle Armor
|move1=Slash|move1type=Normal
|move2=AncientPower|move2type=Rock
|move3=Aerial Ace|move3type=Flying
|move4=Water Pulse|move4type=Water}}
|{{Pokémon/3
|game=Emerald
|ndex=306
|pokemon=Aggron
|gender=male
|level=76
|type1=Steel|type2=Rock
|ability=Sturdy
|move1=Earthquake|move1type=Ground
|move2=Thunder|move2type=Electric
|move3=SolarBeam|move3type=Grass
|move4=Dragon Claw|move4type=Dragon}}
|{{Pokémon/3
|game=Emerald
|ndex=376
|pokemon=Metagross
|level=78
|type1=Steel|type2=Psychic
|ability=Clear Body
|held=Sitrus Berry
|move1=Earthquake|move1type=Ground
|move2=Meteor Mash|move2type=Steel
|move3=Psychic|move3type=Psychic
|move4=Shadow Ball|move4type=Ghost}}
{{Party/Footer}}

==Layout==
===Interior===
{| class="roundy" style="margin:auto; background: #000; border: 3px solid #{{Locationcolor/dark|cave}}"
|-
! style="background:#{{Locationcolor/light|cave}}; {{roundytl|5px}}" | Version
! style="background:#{{Locationcolor/light|cave}}" | 1F 1R
! style="background:#{{Locationcolor/light|cave}}" | 1F 2R
! style="background:#{{Locationcolor/light|cave}}" | B1F 1R
! style="background:#{{Locationcolor/light|cave}}" | B1F 2R
! style="background:#{{Locationcolor/light|cave}}; {{roundytr|5px}}" | Steven's Cave
|-
! style="background:#{{ruby color}}" | {{color2|fff|Pokémon Ruby and Sapphire Versions|Ruby}}
| rowspan="2" | [[File:Meteor Falls 1F1R RS.png|140px]]
| rowspan="2" | [[File:Meteor Falls 1F2R RS.png|180px]]
| rowspan="2" | [[File:Meteor Falls B1F R1 RS.png|145px]]
| rowspan="2" | [[File:Meteor Falls B1F R2 RS.png|120px]]
|-
! style="background:#{{sapphire color}}" | {{color2|fff|Pokémon Ruby and Sapphire Versions|Sapphire}}
|-
! style="background:#{{Emerald color}}" rowspan="2" | {{color2|000|Pokémon Emerald Version|Emerald}}
| [[File:Meteor Falls 1F1R E.png|140px]]
| rowspan="2" | [[File:Meteor Falls 1F2R E.png|180px]]
| rowspan="2" | [[File:Meteor Falls B1F R1 E.png|145px]]
| rowspan="2" | [[File:Meteor Falls B1F R2 E.png|120px]]
| rowspan="2" | [[File:Meteor Falls Steven Cave E.png|180px]]
|-
| [[File:Meteor Falls 1F1R alt E.png|140px]]
|-
| colspan="6" style="background:#{{Locationcolor/light|cave}}; {{roundybottom|5px}}" |  
|}

===Exterior===
{| class="roundy" style="margin:auto; background: #000; border: 3px solid #{{locationcolor/dark|cave}}"
|-
! style="background:#{{locationcolor/light|cave}}; {{roundytl|5px}}" | Version
! style="background:#{{locationcolor/light|cave}}; {{roundytr|5px}}" | Exterior
|-
! style="background:#{{ruby color}}" | {{color2|fff|Pokémon Ruby and Sapphire Versions|Ruby}}
| rowspan="2" | [[File:Meteor Falls exterior RS.png|250px]]
|-
! style="background:#{{sapphire color}}" | {{color2|fff|Pokémon Ruby and Sapphire Versions|Sapphire}}
|-
! style="background:#{{emerald color}}" | {{color2|000|Pokémon Emerald Version|Emerald}}
| [[File:Meteor Falls exterior E.png|250px]]
|-
| colspan="2" style="background:#{{locationcolor/light|cave}}; {{roundybottom|5px}}" |  
|}

==In the TCG==
[[File:TCG Meteor Falls.png|thumb|Meteor Falls as depicted in the TCG]]
This listing is of cards mentioning or featuring Meteor Falls in the [[Pokémon Trading Card Game]].

{{cardlist/header|Related cards|Trainer|char=yes}}
{{cardlist/entry|cardname={{TCG ID|EX Deoxys|Meteor Falls|89}}|type=Trainer|type2=Stadium|enset=EX Deoxys|enrarity=Uncommon|ennum=89/107|jpsetlink=EX Deoxys|jpset=Clash of the Blue Sky|jprarity=Uncommon|jpset=079/082}}
{{cardlist/footer|Trainer}}

==In other languages==
{{Langtable|color={{locationcolor/light|cave}}|bordercolor={{locationcolor/dark|cave}}
|fr_eu=Site Météore
|de=Meteorfälle
|it=Cascate Meteora
|ko={{tt|유성의 폭포|Yuseong-yi Pokpo}} ''Meteor Falls''
|es_eu=Cascada Meteoro}}
{{-}}
{{Hoenn}} 
{{Project Locations notice}}

[[Category:Ruby and Sapphire locations]]
[[Category:Emerald locations]]
[[Category:Caves]]
[[Category:Waterfalls]]

[[de:Meteorfälle]]
[[fr:Site Météore]]
[[it:Cascate Meteora]]
[[ja:りゅうせいのたき]]
[[pt:Meteor Falls]]
[[zh:流星瀑布]]

Hoenn Route 106

2014-06-24T02:35:41Z

Pokepro97: /* Items */

{{Route infobox
|number=106
|size=290
|generation=3
|image=Hoenn Route 106 E.png
|type=ocean
|surf=yes
|north=Route 105
|regionnorth=Hoenn
|south=Dewford Town
|west=Granite Cave
|region=Hoenn
}}

'''Route 106''' (Japanese: '''１０６ばんすいどう''' ''Water Route 106'') is a [[water route]] in southern [[Hoenn]], connecting {{rt|105|Hoenn}} and [[Dewford Town]] on Dewford Island. [[Granite Cave]] is located at the center of the route.

==Route description==
[[File:Hoenn Route 106 RS.png|thumb|right|Route 106 in Ruby and Sapphire]]
Route 106 is a short and quiet route. Most of it is water, that the player can {{m|Surf}} on, while a part of it is sandy beach that is a part of the island where [[Dewford Town]] stands. The player will enter the route by surfing south of {{rt|105|Hoenn}}. The player will enter the route at the northern side, where they must surf, straight south, then east. They will reach a secluded strip of beach, where the player will find a {{DL|Vitamin|Protein}} and nothing more as there is no way to get anywhere else other than to surf again. After that, by surfing further east, the player will reach the sandy shores of an island where Dewford Town can be located by traveling further south. On this beach there will be a {{DL|Poké Ball|Poké Ball}}, along with two other Trainers, both being {{tc|Fisherman|Fishermen}}. Just west of this part is [[Granite Cave]], while south is Dewford Town. If the player was still surfing along the coast, they will reach Dewford Town and a small port.

==Items==
{{itlisth|ocean}}
{{Itemlist|Heart Scale|In the sand east of Fisherman Ned in the northeast shoreline ''(hidden)''|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes|display={{DL|Exchangeable item|Heart Scale}}}}
{{Itemlist|Stardust|On the rock northeast of Fisherman Elliot ''(hidden)''|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes|display={{DL|Valuable item|Stardust}}}}
{{Itemlist|Poké Ball|On the far left corner of the northern shore line ''(hidden)''|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes|display={{DL|Poké Ball|Poké Ball}}}}
{{Itemlist|Protein|On the far west shore line (requires {{m|Surf}})|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes|display={{DL|Vitamin|Protein}}}}
{{itlistfoot|ocean}}

==Pokémon==
{{catch/header|ocean|no}}
{{Catch/div|ocean|Surfing}}
{{Catch/entry3|072|Tentacool|yes|yes|yes|Surf|5-35|60%|type1=Water|type2=Poison}}
{{Catch/entry3|278|Wingull|yes|yes|yes|Surf|10-30|35%|type1=Water|type2=Flying}}
{{Catch/entry3|279|Pelipper|yes|yes|yes|Surf|25-30|5%|type1=Water|type2=Flying}}
{{Catch/div|ocean|Fishing}}
{{Catch/entry3|072|Tentacool|yes|yes|yes|Fish Old|5-10|30%|type1=Water|type2=Poison}}
{{Catch/entry3|129|Magikarp|yes|yes|yes|Fish Old|5-10|70%|type1=Water}}
{{Catch/entry3|072|Tentacool|yes|yes|yes|Fish Good|10-30|20%|type1=Water|type2=Poison}}
{{Catch/entry3|129|Magikarp|yes|yes|yes|Fish Good|10-30|60%|type1=Water}}
{{Catch/entry3|320|Wailmer|yes|yes|yes|Fish Good|10-30|20%|type1=Water}}
{{Catch/entry3|320|Wailmer|yes|yes|yes|Fish Super|20-45|100%|type1=Water}}
{{catch/footer|ocean}}

==Trainers==
===Pokémon Ruby and Sapphire===
{{trainerheader|ocean|3}}
{{Trainerentry|Spr RS Fisherman.png|Fisherman|Ned|480|1|072|Tentacool|♂|12||36=トモカズ|37=Tomokazu}}
{{trainerdiv|ocean}}
{{trainerentry|Spr RS Fisherman.png|Fisherman|Elliot|440|3|129|Magikarp|♂|11||072|Tentacool|♂|8||129|Magikarp|♂|11||36=アキヒコ|37=Akihiko|38=Nav}}
{{trainerdiv|ocean|Requires {{mcolor|Surf|FFF}}}}
{{trainerentry|Spr RS Swimmer M.png|Swimmer|Douglas|208|2|072|Tentacool|♂|26||072|Tentacool|♂|26||36=タツオ|37=Tatsuo}}
{{trainerdiv|ocean}}
{{trainerentry|Spr RS Swimmer F.png|Swimmer|Nicole|216|1|320|Wailmer|♀|27||36=ミズハ|37=Mizuha}}
{{trainerfooter|ocean|3}}

===Pokémon Emerald===
{{trainerheader|ocean|3}}
{{Trainerentry|Spr RS Fisherman.png|Fisherman|Ned|440|1|072|Tentacool|♂|11||36=トモカズ|37=Tomokazu}}
{{trainerdiv|ocean}}
{{trainerentry|Spr RS Fisherman.png|Fisherman|Elliot|400|3|129|Magikarp|♂|10||072|Tentacool|♂|7||129|Magikarp|♂|10||36=アキヒコ|37=Akihiko|38=Nav}}
{{trainerdiv|ocean|Requires {{mcolor|Surf|FFF}}}}
{{trainerentry|Spr RS Swimmer M.png|Swimmer|Douglas|192|2|072|Tentacool|♂|24||072|Tentacool|♂|24||36=タツオ|37=Tatsuo}}
{{trainerdiv|ocean}}
{{trainerentry|Spr RS Swimmer F.png|Swimmer|Kyla|208|1|320|Wailmer|♀|26||36=ミズハ|37=Mizuha}}
{{trainerfooter|ocean|3}}

==Trainer Tips==
{{sign|E|header}}
{{sign|E|title|TRAINER TIPS}}
{{sign|E|Advice on catching POKéMON with a}}
{{sign|E|ROD: Press the A Button if you get a bite.}}
{{sign|E|footer}}

==In the anime==
Route 106 appeared for a multiple episode arc between ''[[AG019|Sharpedo Attack!]]'' and ''[[AG031|Just One of the Geysers]]'', in which it was referred to as "[[Dewford Town#In the anime|Dewford Island]]".

==References==
* [http://www.psypokes.com Pokémon distribution]

{{Hoenn}} 
{{Project Routes notice}}

[[Category:Hoenn locations|Route 106]]
[[Category:Routes|Route 106]]
[[Category:Ruby and Sapphire locations|Route 106]]
[[Category:Emerald locations|Route 106]]

[[it:Percorso 106 (Hoenn)]]

[[de:Route 106 (Hoenn)]]
[[fr:Chenal 106]]
[[ja:106ばんすいどう]]
[[zh:106号水道（丰缘）]]

Hoenn Route 104

2014-06-24T02:31:32Z

Pokepro97: /* Items */

{{Route infobox
|number=104
|size=150
|generation=3
|image=Hoenn Route 104 E.png
|type=land
|north=Rustboro City
|south=Route 105
|regionsouth=Hoenn
|east=Petalburg City
|cut=yes
|surf=yes
|region=Hoenn
}}

'''Route 104''' (Japanese: '''１０４ばんどうろ''' ''Route 104'') is a route in west [[Hoenn]], connecting [[Petalburg City]], [[Rustboro City]], and {{rt|105|Hoenn}}. The route is divided into two halves by [[Petalburg Woods]].

==Route description==
[[File:Hoenn Route 104 RS.png|thumb|right|Route 104 in Ruby and Sapphire]]
Traveling south from Rustboro, the beaten path of the route swerves to the east for a short distance before turning south toward a bridge traversing a pond. On the north side of the pond, there is a patch of [[soft soil]] that sprouts {{b|Cheri}} and [[Leppa Berry]] trees, with space for another. Near the patch, an old woman gives out a [[Chesto Berry]] and reminds Trainers of the regenerating ability of Berries. Also, to the west of the patch, a {{tc|Fisherman}} is standing by the shore of the pond waiting for a battle.

On the bridge, which runs south for half the length of the pond, turns east, then returns south and connects with the opposite bank, the first set of [[Double Battle]] Trainers that one encounters in Hoenn, {{tc|Twins}} Gina and Mia, await to challenge Trainers that cross their path. Gina and Mia will not challenge if the Trainer only has one Pokémon.

Directly east of the bridge is the [[Pretty Petal Flower Shop]]. In this shop, there are [[plant]]s available for purchase. These plants are for decorating the interior of a [[secret base]]. Also, the {{key|III|Wailmer Pail}} can be obtained by speaking to the owner of the shop.

The path resumes, going south off the bridge then turning west; here {{tc|Lass}} Haley stands waiting for Trainers. To her east is a {{m|cut}}-able tree that blocks the way to a {{DL|Battle item|Dire Hit}}{{sup/3|E}} or an {{DL|Battle item|X Accuracy}}{{sup/3|RS}}. Down the path west of Haley, is another Trainer eager for battle, {{tc|Lady}} Cindy{{sup/3|RS}} or {{tc|Rich Boy}} Winston{{sup/3|E}}. Continuing past a [[List of Trainer tips|Trainer Tip]], the pathway reaches a junction. To the south is the entrance to Petalburg Woods. To the northwest is the [[Pretty Petal Flower Shop]], another soft patch containing {{b|Oran}} and Cheri Berries, as well as a guy who carries {{TM|09|Bullet Seed}}. Farther north, behind the flower shop, lies a sporadic patch of grass with [[wild Pokémon]]. A {{DL|Potion|Potion}}, {{DL|Potion|Super Potion}}, and {{DL|Poké Ball|Poké Ball}} can be found hidden in bare spots.

Two openings emerge from the south end of Petalburg Woods. The west opening, which is the main entrance and exit, comes out to a path where either Rich Boy Winston{{sup/3|RS}} or Lady Cindy{{sup/3|E}} is standing. The pathway, shrouded by grass here, turns east for a lengthy distance until it reaches a soft soil patch where {{b|Oran}} and {{b|Pecha}} Berries are growing, and the path promptly turns and continues south. The eastern opening leads to a ledge which runs parallel to the pathway at this point. A {{DL|Poké Ball|Poké Ball}} can be found near the edge of this ledge.

The pathway keeps south, past the cottage of Mr. Briney, then ends as it approaches a large patch of grass. Past the grass the path picks up again, going southeast shortly and finally meets the west entrance to Petalburg City. Two sets of short stairways, one southwest of the entrance, the other just outside Mr. Briney's cottage, lead down to a beach marking the southwest edge of the land, and the route takes to sea, down {{rt|105|Hoenn}}, and south towards Dewford. On the beach itself, a {{tc|Youngster}} named Billy paces around repeatedly in a square, looking for a battle. Several hidden items can also be found scattered around. The beach provides a convenient bypass to going through the grass patch.

In the game, following the early storyline, the main character is forced to take Route 104 the other way round first, traversing from Petalburg up through the Woods towards Rustboro, since the water passage blocks the way on {{rt|103|Hoenn}}.

==Items==
{{Itlisth|land}}
{{Itemlist|Potion|Beach, buried in sand in the northwestern-most corner ''(hidden)''|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes|display={{DL|Potion|Potion}}}}
{{Itemlist|Antidote|Beach, buried in sand, west from the bottom-most cliff ''(hidden)''|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes|display={{DL|Status ailment healing item|Antidote}}}}
{{Itemlist|Heart Scale|Beach, buried in sand, southwest of grass patch, halfway to the sea ''(hidden)''|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes|display={{DL|Exchangeable item|Heart Scale}}}}
{{Itemlist|TM Grass|Obtained from guy south of the Flower Shop|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes|display={{TM|09|Bullet Seed}}}}
{{Itemlist|Poké Ball|
* The ledge where the southeastern exit of Petalburg Woods leads to, near the edge
* Grass patch behind the Flower Shop ''(hidden)''|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes|display={{DL|Poké Ball|Poké Ball}} ×2}}
{{Itemlist|Potion|Grass patch behind the Flower Shop|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes|display={{DL|Potion|Potion}}}}
{{Itemlist|Super Potion|Grass patch behind the Flower Shop ''(hidden)''|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes|display={{DL|Potion|Super Potion}}}}
{{Itemlist|Wailmer Pail|Obtained from owner of Flower Shop|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes|display={{key|III|Wailmer Pail}}}}
{{Itemlist|Dire Hit|Southeast corner of the pond (requires {{m|Cut}})|E=yes|display={{DL|Battle item|Dire Hit}}}}
{{Itemlist|X Accuracy|Southeast corner of the pond (requires {{m|Cut}})|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|display={{DL|Battle item|X Accuracy}}}}
{{Itemlist|PP Up|A small break in the trees east of the pond (requires {{m|Surf}})|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes|display={{DL|Vitamin|PP Up}}}}
{{Itemlist|White Herb|Obtained from woman outside the Flower Shop after [[Dynamo Badge]]|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes|display={{DL|In-battle effect item|White Herb}}}}
{{Itemlist|Pecha Berry|In the soft soil patch south of Petalburg Woods|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes|display=[[Pecha Berry]] ×2}}
{{Itemlist|Oran Berry|In the soft soil patch south of Petalburg Woods|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes|display=[[Oran Berry]] ×2}}
{{Itemlist|Oran Berry|In the soft soil patch next to the Flower Shop|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes|display=[[Oran Berry]] ×2}}
{{Itemlist|Cheri Berry|In the soft soil patch next to the Flower Shop|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes|display=[[Cheri Berry]] ×2}}
{{Itemlist|Chesto Berry|Obtained from old woman near soft soil patch north of pond|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes}}
{{Itemlist|Cheri Berry|In the soft soil patch north of the pond|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes|display=[[Cheri Berry]] ×2}}
{{Itemlist|Leppa Berry|In the soft soil patch north of the pond|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes|display=[[Leppa Berry]] ×2}}
{{Itlistfoot|land}}

===Flower Shop===
In addition, a girl in the Flower Shop will give out a Berry once per day. These are randomly selected from the first eight Berries obtainable in Hoenn.
{{Itlisth|land}}
{{Itemlist|Cheri Berry|Received from a girl|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes}}
{{Itemlist|Chesto Berry|Received from a girl|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes}}
{{Itemlist|Pecha Berry|Received from a girl|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes}}
{{Itemlist|Rawst Berry|Received from a girl|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes}}
{{Itemlist|Aspear Berry|Received from a girl|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes}}
{{Itemlist|Leppa Berry|Received from a girl|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes}}
{{Itemlist|Oran Berry|Received from a girl|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes}}
{{Itemlist|Persim Berry|Received from a girl|Ru=yes|Sa=yes|E=yes}}
{{Itlistfoot|land}}

==Pokémon==
{{catch/header|land|no}}
{{Catch/entry3|183|Marill|no|no|yes|Grass|4-5|20%|type1=Water}}
{{Catch/entry3|261|Poochyena|no|no|yes|Grass|4-5|40%|type1=Dark}}
{{Catch/entry3|263|Zigzagoon|yes|yes|no|Grass|4-5|50%|type1=Normal}}
{{Catch/entry3|265|Wurmple|yes|yes|no|Grass|4-5|30%|type1=Bug}}
{{Catch/entry3|265|Wurmple|no|no|yes|Grass|4|20%|type1=Bug}}
{{Catch/entry3|276|Taillow|yes|yes|yes|Grass|4-5|10%|type1=Normal|type2=Flying}}
{{Catch/entry3|278|Wingull|yes|yes|yes|Grass|3-5|10%|type1=Water|type2=Flying}}
{{catch/div|water|Surfing}}
{{Catch/entry3|278|Wingull|yes|yes|yes|Surf|10-30|95%|type1=Water|type2=Flying}}
{{Catch/entry3|279|Pelipper|yes|yes|yes|Surf|25-30|5%|type1=Water|type2=Flying}}
{{catch/div|water|Fishing}}
{{Catch/entry3|129|Magikarp|yes|yes|yes|Fish Old|5-10|100%|type1=Water}}
{{Catch/entry3|129|Magikarp|yes|yes|yes|Fish Good|10-30|100%|type1=Water}}
{{Catch/entry3|129|Magikarp|yes|yes|yes|Fish Super|20-45|100%|type1=Water}}
{{catch/footer|land}}

==Trainers==
===Ruby and Sapphire===
{{trainerheader}}
{{trainerentry|Spr RS Youngster.png|Youngster|Billy|128|2|273|Seedot|♂|6||276|Taillow|♂|8||36=ケイタ|37=Keita}}
{{trainerdiv}}
{{trainerentry|Spr RS Rich Boy.png|Rich Boy|Winston|1400|1|263|Zigzagoon|♂|7|Nugget|36=ミツグ|37=Mitsugu|38=Nav}}
{{trainerdiv}}
{{trainerentry|Spr RS Lady.png|Lady|Cindy|1400|1|263|Zigzagoon|♀|7|Nugget|36=レイカ|37=Reika|38=Nav}}
{{trainerdiv}}
{{trainerentry|Spr RS Lass.png|Lass|Haley|112|2|270|Lotad|♀|7||285|Shroomish|♀|7||36=マキ|37=Maki|38=Nav}}
{{trainerdiv}}
{{trainerentry|Spr RS Twins.png|Twins|Gina & Mia|192|2|270|Lotad|♂|8||273|Seedot|♂|8||36=ナオとミオ|37= Nao and Mio}}
{{trainerdiv}}
{{trainerentry|Spr RS Fisherman.png|Fisherman|Ivan|240|3|129|Magikarp|♂|6||129|Magikarp|♂|6||129|Magikarp|♂|6||36=ヨシタカ|37=Yoshitaka}}
{{trainerfooter|land|3}}

===Emerald===
{{trainerheader}}
{{trainerentry|Spr RS Youngster.png|Youngster|Billy|112|2|263|Zigzagoon|♂|5||273|Seedot|♂|7||36=ケイタ|37=Keita}}
{{trainerdiv}}
{{trainerentry|Spr RS Fisherman.png|Fisherman|Darian|360|1|129|Magikarp|♂|9||36=ケンキチ|37=Kenkichi}}
{{trainerdiv}}
{{trainerentry|Spr RS Lady.png|Lady|Cindy|1400|1|263|Zigzagoon|♀|7|Nugget|36=レイカ|37=Reika|38=Nav}}
{{trainerdiv}}
{{trainerentry|Spr RS Rich Boy.png|Rich Boy|Winston|1400|1|263|Zigzagoon|♂|7|Nugget|36=ミツグ|37=Mitsugu|38=Nav}}
{{trainerdiv}}
{{trainerentry|Spr RS Lass.png|Lass|Haley|96|2|270|Lotad|♀|6||285|Shroomish|♀|6||36=マキ|37=Maki|38=Nav}}
{{trainerdiv}}
{{trainerentry|Spr RS Twins.png|Twins|Gina & Mia|144|2|270|Lotad|♀|6||273|Seedot|♀|6||36=ナオとミオ|37= Nao and Mio}}
{{trainerdiv}}
{{trainerentry|Spr RS Fisherman.png|Fisherman|Ivan|280|3|129|Magikarp|♂|5||129|Magikarp|♂|6||129|Magikarp|♂|7||36=ヨシタカ|37=Yoshitaka}}
{{trainerfooter|land|3}}

==Trainer tips==
{{sign|E|header}}
{{sign|E|title|TRAINER TIPS}}
{{sign|E|In the HOENN region there are pairs}}
{{sign|E|of TRAINERS who challenge others}}
{{sign|E|for 2-on-2 POKéMON battles}}
{{sign|E|DOUBLE BATTLES.}}
{{sign|E|In a DOUBLE BATTLE, the TRAINER}}
{{sign|E|must send out two POKéMON, the one at}}
{{sign|E| the left of the list and the top one.}}
{{sign|E|Watch how POKéMON are lined up.}}
{{sign|E|footer}}

==In the anime==
{{incomplete|section|image}}
{{cleanup|section}}
The northern half of Route 104 first appears in the anime in ''[[AG009|Taming of the Shroomish]]''. [[Rinshin Town]] is located right after [[Petalburg Woods]]. After Rinshin Town is another unnamed town, which houses an unofficial gym (''[[AG010|You Said a Mouthful!]]''). Past the town is a forested Pokémon Reserve (''[[AG011|A Bite to Remember]]''). The [[Pretty Petal Flower Shop]] is located after the Pokémon Reserve (''[[AG012|The Lotad Lowdown]]''). Past the Flower Shop is the [[Rustboro City]] [[Contest Hall]], which is located outside Rustboro City (''[[AG013|All Things Bright and Beautifly!]]''). A forested path connects the Contest Hall to Rustboro City. This is also where {{an|May}} and [[Jessie]] caught their {{p|Wurmple}} (''[[AG014|All in a Day's Wurmple]]'').
{{sectionstub}}

==See also==
*[[Petalburg Woods]]
*[[Pretty Petal Flower Shop]]

{{-}}
{{Hoenn}}
{{-}}
{{Project Routes notice}}

[[Category:Hoenn locations|Route 104]]
[[Category:Routes|Route 104]]
[[Category:Ruby and Sapphire locations|Route 104]]
[[Category:Emerald locations|Route 104]]

[[it:Percorso 104 (Hoenn)]]

[[de:Route 104 (Hoenn)]]
[[es:Ruta 104 (Hoenn)]]
[[fr:Route 104]]
[[ja:104ばんどうろ]]
[[zh:104号道路（丰缘）]]

Talk:Rock Blast (move)

2014-06-22T06:23:42Z

Pokepro97: /* Poor Average Damage */

==Substitute==
Is the substitute clause tested for actually ending, or does it only continue in Generation IV? [[User:Gywall|Gywall]] 15:30, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
:Noticed that it continues past Substitute in Pokemon XD, I don't know about other Gen III games ([[User:Shivafang|Shivafang]] 14:25, 19 January 2012 (UTC))

==Poor Average Damage==
Article contains average damage, but ignores accuracy, ~~making it a pointless calculation~~. Can I add on the average damage including accuracy? ~~This is very important because it is the only difference between Rock Blast and Rock Slide for a Pokemon with standard accuracy and no ability like Skill Link or Technician~~. Thanks, [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 01:47, 21 June 2014 (UTC).

Edit: I was wrong and corrected. Thanks, [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 06:23, 22 June 2014 (UTC).
:We decided not to factor in accuracy for multi-strike moves for two reasons: accuracy/evasion are wild variables in gameplay and factoring them would ignore this flux, and it's simple math: 90% of 79.2 is the same thing as 79.2 x 0.9. The only exception to this guideline is Triple Kick due to its unique, accuracy-focused mechanic. This is just conjecture, but those who can't calculate percentages probably don't care about knowing average power. —[[User:IWannaBeTheVeryBest|The]]Very[[User talk:IWannaBeTheVeryBest|Best]] 09:23, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
::Accuracy and evasion are not used in the majority of the time, and the accuracy of such moves by default is more important, however my apologies as I was under the impression that strikes could miss, hence reducing the chance of a successive hit further, so clearly the average damage is fine without as with every other move. It was a simple honest mistake and you don't have to be a smartass about it, [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 06:23, 22 June 2014 (UTC).

Pokémon breeding

2014-06-22T05:38:20Z

Pokepro97: /* Passing moves down */

{{spading|comment=How the game decides what will hatch from Nidoran or Volbeat/Illumise Egg?}}
'''Pokémon breeding''' is a method of obtaining a new {{OBP|Pokémon|species}} by producing and hatching an {{pkmn|Egg}}. In the {{pkmn|anime}}, it also refers to Pokémon grooming and caretaking.

==In the games==
===How to breed===
Pokémon can be bred by leaving two compatible Pokémon at the [[Pokémon Day Care]] in [[Generation II]] and beyond, located on {{rt|34|Johto}} in [[Johto]], {{rt|117|Hoenn}} in [[Hoenn]], {{OBP|Four Island|town}} in the [[Sevii Islands]], [[Solaceon Town]] in [[Sinnoh]], {{rt|3|Unova}} in [[Unova]] and {{rt|7|Kalos}} in [[Kalos]].

Two Pokémon are compatible if they are of the same species (or share at least one [[Egg Group]]) and are of opposite genders; alternatively, breeding is usually still possible as long as one of them is {{p|Ditto}}, even if the other parent is genderless, and in fact, genderless Pokémon can breed only with Ditto. Pokémon in the {{egg|Undiscovered}} egg group cannot breed whatsoever, and Ditto cannot breed with itself. In Generation II only, Pokémon with similar IVs cannot breed, due to the likelihood of familial relation.

====Breeding rate====
The chance of any two Pokémon producing an Egg is determined by their species (two {{p|Bulbasaur}} are the same species, while Bulbasaur and {{p|Ivysaur}} are not) and their [[Original Trainer]]s. In [[Generation III]] or later, the [[Day-Care Man]] will describe the two Pokémon's compatibility when the player speaks to him.
{| class="roundy" style="background: #83B46A; border: 5px solid #9CCD83" cellpadding="3px"
|-
! style="background:#D5CDA4; {{roundytl|5px}}" | Species
! style="background:#D5CDA4" | [[Original Trainer]]
! style="background:#D5CDA4" | Quote
! style="background:#D5CDA4; {{roundytr|5px}}" | Chance for Egg (...with [[Oval Charm]])
|- style="background:#FFF"
| Same || Different || The two seem to get along very well{{tt|!|ends in a period before Gen V}} || 69.3% (87.8%)
|- style="background:#FFF"
| Same || Same || rowspan=2 | The two seem to get along. || rowspan=2 | 49.5% (79.5%)
|- style="background:#FFF"
| Different || Different
|- style="background:#FFF"
| Different || Same || The two don't {{tt|really|Gen V+}} seem to like each other {{tt|very|Gen VI+}} much. || 19.8% (39.3%)
|-
| style="background:#FFF; {{roundybl|5px}}" colspan=2 | Different Egg Groups, same gender, or Undiscovered group
| style="background:#FFF" | The two prefer to play with other Pokémon {{tt|more|Gen IV+}} than {{tt|with|Gen IV+}} each other.
| style="background:#FFF; {{roundybr|5px}}" | 0%
|}
The chances of finding an Egg are different in Generation II, and the compatibility can be checked by interacting with the Pokémon themselves instead of with the Day-Care Man.
{| class="roundy" style="background: #83B46A; border: 5px solid #9CCD83" cellpadding="3px"
|-
! style="background:#D5CDA4; {{roundytl|5px}}" | Species
! style="background:#D5CDA4" | [[Original Trainer]]
! style="background:#D5CDA4" | Quote
! style="background:#D5CDA4; {{roundytr|5px}}" |Chance for Egg per step (equivalent per 256 steps)
|- style="background:#FFF"
| Same || Different || It appears to care for <other Pokémon's nickname>. || 0.19% (39.1%)
|- style="background:#FFF"
| Same || Same || It's friendly with <other Pokémon's nickname>. || 0.14% (29.2%)
|- style="background:#FFF"
| Different || Different || It's friendly with <other Pokémon's nickname>. || 0.1% (22.1%)
|- style="background:#FFF"
| Different || Same || It shows interest in <other Pokémon's nickname>. || 0.04% (9.5%)
|- style="background:#FFF"
| colspan=2 | Different Egg Groups, same gender, or Undiscovered group || It has no interest in <other's Pokémon nickname>. || 0%
|-
| style="background:#FFF; {{roundybl|5px}}" colspan=2 | Both Pokémon's Defense [[IV]]s are the same and their Special IVs are different by either 0 or 8
| style="background:#FFF" | It's brimming with energy.
| style="background:#FFF; {{roundybr|5px}}" | 0%
|}

====Receiving the Egg====
When there are two compatible Pokémon in the Day Care, the game will periodically decide whether the Day-Care Man has found an Egg, with the chances depending on the compatibility of the two Pokémon as detailed in the section above. In Generation III and later, the game determines whether an Egg appears after every 256 steps the player takes, while in Generation II, it checks after every step.

If an Egg was produced, the Day-Care Man will move from his default position so that the player can know he has an Egg.
*In [[Generation II]], he will appear outside of the Day Care.
*In [[Generation III]], he will step out of line with the fence.
*In {{3v2|Diamond|Pearl|Platinum}}, he will face the road instead of facing down.
*In {{2v2|HeartGold|SoulSilver}}, he will face left or right instead of down and call the player over the [[Pokégear]].
*In [[Generation V]], he will call out to the player when they are passing by on the road below.
**In {{2v2|Black|White}}, however, the Day-Care Man will not call out to the player if the player's party is full, even if he has found an Egg.
*In [[Generation VI]], he will face the road instead of in towards the Day Care.
The Day-Care Man will hand the player an {{pkmn|Egg}} if he or she replies that they want the Egg and if they have an empty slot in their party. If the player tells the Day-Care Man they do not want the Egg, he will permanently keep it. If the player says they want the Egg but does not have a spare slot, the Day-Care Man will keep it until the player returns, when he will offer it again; otherwise, there is no way to refuse the Egg and receive it later.

====What will hatch====
After walking around for a while, the Egg will hatch into a [[level]] 5 ([[Generation II]] and {{Gen|III}}) or level 1 ([[Generation IV]] onward) first-stage Pokémon of the female species' (or non-Ditto parent's) evolutionary chain.

{| class="roundy" style="margin:auto; text-align:center; background: #FFF6DE; border: 5px solid #9CCD83"
|-
! style="background:#D5CDA4; {{roundytl|5px}}" colspan="2" | Parents
! style="background:#D5CDA4; {{roundytr|5px}}" | Offspring
|-
! style="background:#D5CDA4" colspan="3" | Ditto breeding
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| [[File:445Garchomp.png|96px]]
| [[File:132Ditto.png|96px]]
| [[File:443Gible.png|96px]]
|- style="background:#9CCD83"
| {{pcolor|Garchomp|000}}
| {{pcolor|Ditto|000}}
| {{pcolor|Gible|000}}
|-
! style="background:#D5CDA4" colspan="3" | Same species breeding
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| [[File:609Chandelure.png|96px]]
| [[File:609Chandelure.png|96px]]
| [[File:607Litwick.png|96px]]
|- style="background:#9CCD83"
| {{pcolor|Chandelure|000}}{{color|0070f8|♂}}
| {{pcolor|Chandelure|000}}{{color|e82010|♀}}
| {{pcolor|Litwick|000}}
|-
! style="background:#D5CDA4" colspan="3" | Same {{color2|000|evolution}} family breeding
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| [[File:466Electivire.png|96px]]
| [[File:125Electabuzz.png|96px]]
| [[File:239Elekid.png|96px]]
|- style="background:#9CCD83"
| {{pcolor|Electivire|000}}{{color|0070f8|♂}}
| {{pcolor|Electabuzz|000}}{{color|e82010|♀}}
| {{pcolor|Elekid|000}}
|-
! style="background:#D5CDA4" colspan="3" | Same {{color2|000|Egg Group}} breeding
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| [[File:136Flareon.png|96px]]
| [[File:400Bibarel.png|96px]]
| [[File:399Bidoof.png|96px]]
|- style="background:#9CCD83"
| {{pcolor|Flareon|000}}{{color|0070f8|♂}}
| {{pcolor|Bibarel|000}}{{color|e82010|♀}}
| {{pcolor|Bidoof|000}}
|-align=center
! style="background:#D5CDA4" colspan="3" | {{color2|000|Undiscovered (Egg Group)|Undiscovered Egg Group}} breeding
|-align=center style="background:#83B46A"
| [[File:485Heatran.png|96px]]
| [[File:485Heatran.png|96px]]
| '''<sc>None</sc>'''
|-
| style="background:#9CCD83;" | {{pcolor|Heatran|000}}{{color|0070f8|♂}}
| style="background:#9CCD83" | {{pcolor|Heatran|000}}{{color|e82010|♀}}
| style="background:#9CCD83;" | '''<sc>None</sc>'''
|-align=center
! style="background:#D5CDA4" colspan="3" | Different {{color2|000|Egg Group}} breeding
|-align=center style="background:#83B46A"
| [[File:430Honchkrow.png|96px]]
| [[File:040Wigglytuff.png|96px]]
| '''<sc>None</sc>'''
|-
| style="background:#9CCD83;" | {{pcolor|Honchkrow|000}}{{color|0070f8|♂}}
| style="background:#9CCD83" | {{pcolor|Wigglytuff|000}}{{color|e82010|♀}}
| style="background:#9CCD83;" | '''<sc>None</sc>'''
|-align=center
! style="background:#D5CDA4" colspan="3" | Same {{color2|000|gender}} breeding
|-align=center style="background:#83B46A"
| [[File:192Sunflora.png|96px]]
| [[File:192Sunflora.png|96px]]
| '''<sc>None</sc>'''
|-
| style="background:#9CCD83; {{roundybl|5px}}" | {{pcolor|Sunflora|000}}{{color|0070f8|♂}}
| style="background:#9CCD83" | {{pcolor|Sunflora|000}}{{color|0070f8|♂}}
| style="background:#9CCD83; {{roundybr|5px}}" | '''<sc>None</sc>'''
|}

However, there are two pairs of Pokémon species where the male and female are treated as different Pokémon. In these cases, an Egg produced by the female species may hatch into either the male or female variant; The pairs are the following:

{| class="roundy" style="margin:auto; text-align:center; background: #FFF6DE; border: 5px solid #9CCD83"
|-
! style="background:#D5CDA4; {{roundytl|5px}}" colspan="2" | Parents
! style="background:#D5CDA4; {{roundytr|5px}}" | Offspring
|-
! style="background:#D5CDA4" colspan="3" | Poison Pin Pokémon
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| rowspan="2" | [[File:029Nidoran.png|96px]]
| rowspan="2" |
| {{MS|029}}
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| {{MS|032}}
|-
| style="background:#9CCD83;" rowspan="2" | {{pcolor|Nidoran♀|000}}
| style="background:#9CCD83;" rowspan="2" | Any compatible Pokémon
| style="background:#9CCD83;" | {{pcolor|Nidoran♀|000}}
|-
| style="background:#9CCD83;" | {{pcolor|Nidoran♂|000}}
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| rowspan="2" | [[File:032Nidoran.png|96px]]
| rowspan="2" | [[File:132Ditto.png|96px]]
| {{MS|029}}
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| {{MS|032}}
|-
| style="background:#9CCD83;" rowspan="2" | {{pcolor|Nidoran♂|000}}
| style="background:#9CCD83;" rowspan="2" | Ditto
| style="background:#9CCD83;" | {{pcolor|Nidoran♀|000}}
|-
| style="background:#9CCD83;" | {{pcolor|Nidoran♂|000}}
|-
! style="background:#D5CDA4" colspan="3" | Firefly Pokémon
|-align=center style="background:#83B46A"
| rowspan="2" | [[File:314Illumise.png|96px]]
| rowspan="2" |
| {{MS|313}}
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| {{MS|314}}
|-
| style="background:#9CCD83;" rowspan="2" | {{pcolor|Illumise|000}}
| style="background:#9CCD83" rowspan="2" | Any compatible Pokémon
| style="background:#9CCD83;" | {{pcolor|Volbeat|000}}
|-
| style="background:#9CCD83;" | {{pcolor|Illumise|000}}
|-align=center style="background:#83B46A"
| rowspan="2" | [[File:313Volbeat.png|96px]]
| rowspan="2" | [[File:132Ditto.png|96px]]
| {{MS|313}}
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| {{MS|314}}
|-
| style="background:#9CCD83; {{roundybl|5px}}" rowspan="2" | {{pcolor|Volbeat|000}}
| style="background:#9CCD83" rowspan="2" | Ditto
| style="background:#9CCD83;" | {{pcolor|Volbeat|000}}
|-
| style="background:#9CCD83; {{roundybr|5px}}" | {{pcolor|Illumise|000}}{{tt|*|Generation V onward}}
|}

There are also some Pokémon which will produce variable Eggs. The Pokémon that is in these Eggs will depend on whether or not the parents [[held item|held]] a certain type of [[incense]] while breeding.

{| class="roundy" style="margin:auto; text-align:center; background: #FFF6DE; border: 5px solid #9CCD83"
|-
! style="background:#D5CDA4; {{roundytl|5px}}" colspan="2" | Parents
! style="background:#D5CDA4;" | Item
! style="background:#D5CDA4; {{roundytr|5px}}" | Offspring
|-
! style="background:#D5CDA4" colspan="4" | Marill and Azumarill
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| rowspan="4" | [[File:183Marill.png|96px]]
| rowspan="4" | [[File:184Azumarill.png|96px]]
| height=32px | {{bag|Sea Incense}}
| rowspan="2" | {{MS|298}}
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| height=32px | Sea Incense
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| height=32px |
| rowspan="2" | {{MS|183}}
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| height=32px | No item
|- style="background:#9CCD83"
| rowspan="2" | {{pcolor|Marill|000}}
| rowspan="2" | {{pcolor|Azumarill|000}}
| colspan="2" | {{pcolor|Azurill|000}}
|- style="background:#9CCD83"
| colspan="2" | {{pcolor|Marill|000}}
|-
! style="background:#D5CDA4" colspan="4" | Wobbuffet
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| rowspan="4" colspan="2" | [[File:202Wobbuffet.png|96px]]
| height=32px | {{bag|Lax Incense}}
| rowspan="2" | {{MS|360}}
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| height=32px | Lax Incense
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| height=32px |
| rowspan="2" | {{MS|202}}
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| height=32px | No item
|- style="background:#9CCD83"
| rowspan="2" colspan="2" | {{pcolor|Wobbuffet|000}}
| colspan="2" | {{pcolor|Wynaut|000}}
|- style="background:#9CCD83"
| colspan="2" | {{pcolor|Wobbuffet|000}}
|-
! style="background:#D5CDA4" colspan="4" | Roselia and Roserade
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| rowspan="4" | [[File:315Roselia.png|96px]]
| rowspan="4" | [[File:407Roserade.png|96px]]
| height=32px | {{bag|Rose Incense}}
| rowspan="2" | {{MS|406}}
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| height=32px | Rose Incense
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| height=32px |
| rowspan="2" | {{MS|315}}
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| height=32px | No item
|- style="background:#9CCD83"
| rowspan="2" | {{pcolor|Roselia|000}}
| rowspan="2" | {{pcolor|Roserade|000}}
| colspan="2" | {{pcolor|Budew|000}}
|- style="background:#9CCD83"
| colspan="2" | {{pcolor|Roselia|000}}
|-
! style="background:#D5CDA4" colspan="4" | Chimecho
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| rowspan="4" colspan="2" | [[File:358Chimecho.png|96px]]
| height=32px | {{bag|Pure Incense}}
| rowspan="2" | {{MS|433}}
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| height=32px | Pure Incense
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| height=32px |
| rowspan="2" | {{MS|358}}
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| height=32px | No item
|- style="background:#9CCD83"
| rowspan="2" colspan="2" | {{pcolor|Chimecho|000}}
| colspan="2" | {{pcolor|Chingling|000}}
|- style="background:#9CCD83"
| colspan="2" | {{pcolor|Chimecho|000}}
|-
! style="background:#D5CDA4" colspan="4" | Sudowoodo
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| rowspan="4" colspan="2" | [[File:185Sudowoodo.png|96px]]
| height=32px | {{bag|Rock Incense}}
| rowspan="2" | {{MS|438}}
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| height=32px | Rock Incense
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| height=32px |
| rowspan="2" | {{MS|185}}
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| height=32px | No item
|- style="background:#9CCD83"
| rowspan="2" colspan="2" | {{pcolor|Sudowoodo|000}}
| colspan="2" | {{pcolor|Bonsly|000}}
|- style="background:#9CCD83"
| colspan="2" | {{pcolor|Sudowoodo|000}}
|-
! style="background:#D5CDA4" colspan="4" | Mr. Mime
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| rowspan="4" colspan="2" | [[File:122Mr._Mime.png|96px]]
| height=32px | {{bag|Odd Incense}}
| rowspan="2" | {{MS|439}}
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| height=32px | Odd Incense
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| height=32px |
| rowspan="2" | {{MS|122}}
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| height=32px | No item
|- style="background:#9CCD83"
| rowspan="2" colspan="2" | {{pcolor|Mr. Mime|000}}
| colspan="2" | {{pcolor|Mime Jr.|000}}
|- style="background:#9CCD83"
| colspan="2" | {{pcolor|Mr. Mime|000}}
|-
! style="background:#D5CDA4" colspan="4" | Chansey and Blissey
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| rowspan="4" | [[File:113Chansey.png|96px]]
| rowspan="4" | [[File:242Blissey.png|96px]]
| height=32px | {{bag|Luck Incense}}
| rowspan="2" | {{MS|440}}
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| height=32px | Luck Incense
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| height=32px |
| rowspan="2" | {{MS|113}}
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| height=32px | No item
|- style="background:#9CCD83"
| rowspan="2" | {{pcolor|Chansey|000}}
| rowspan="2" | {{pcolor|Blissey|000}}
| colspan="2" | {{pcolor|Happiny|000}}
|- style="background:#9CCD83"
| colspan="2" | {{pcolor|Chansey|000}}
|-
! style="background:#D5CDA4" colspan="4" | Mantine
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| rowspan="4" colspan="2" | [[File:226Mantine.png|96px]]
| height=32px | {{bag|Wave Incense}}
| rowspan="2" | {{MS|458}}
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| height=32px | Wave Incense
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| height=32px |
| rowspan="2" | {{MS|226}}
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| height=32px | No item
|- style="background:#9CCD83"
| rowspan="2" colspan="2" | {{pcolor|Mantine|000}}
| colspan="2" | {{pcolor|Mantyke|000}}
|- style="background:#9CCD83"
| colspan="2" | {{pcolor|Mantine|000}}
|-
! style="background:#D5CDA4" colspan="4" | Snorlax
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| rowspan="4" colspan="2" | [[File:143Snorlax.png|96px]]
| height=32px | {{bag|Full Incense}}
| rowspan="2" | {{MS|446}}
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| height=32px | Full Incense
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| height=32px |
| rowspan="2" | {{MS|143}}
|- style="background:#83B46A"
| height=32px | No item
|-
| rowspan="2" colspan="2" style="background:#9CCD83; {{roundybl|5px}}" | {{pcolor|Snorlax|000}}
| colspan="2" style="background:#9CCD83" | {{pcolor|Munchlax|000}}
|-
| colspan="2" style="background:#9CCD83; {{roundybr|5px}}" | {{pcolor|Snorlax|000}}
|}

===Hatching Eggs===
The time it takes for Eggs to hatch depends on the Pokémon's species' required number of [[Egg cycles]]. {{p|Magikarp}} is the fastest hatching Pokémon with the fewest Egg cycles required for hatching. Some baby Pokémon in the {{egg3|Fairy}}, such as {{p|Cleffa}}, {{p|Pichu}} and {{p|Igglybuff}}, hatch quickly as well. Besides these, most Pokémon take considerable time to hatch. Rare and powerful Pokémon, like {{p|Dratini}}, {{p|Bagon}}, {{p|Beldum}}, {{p|Larvitar}}, {{p|Gible}}, {{p|Aerodactyl}}, {{p|Snorlax}}, {{p|Spiritomb}}, {{p|Chansey}}, and {{p|Eevee}}, among others, take a long time to hatch due to high numbers of Egg cycles required for hatching.

"Time" is actually determined by Egg cycle completion, which is determined by in-game steps or biking. An Egg cycle is a counted number of steps that activate breeding related programs in the game. One Egg cycle lasts 256 steps in the third generation and 255 steps in the fourth generation. After 255/256 steps are taken, the game recognizes the completion of the cycle and does a few things; the step counter for the cycles is reset to zero, the game randomly decides if an Egg is to be found at the Day Care (if compatible Pokémon are present in the Day Care at the time), and all (or only a few) Eggs currently in the player's team are taken down one Egg cycle count. If the Egg cycle count for an Egg reaches zero or a negative number, the Egg will begin to hatch. If an Egg hatches, the game stops subtracting an Egg cycle count from the rest of the Eggs in the team. Due to this, since the third generation, no two Eggs can hatch at the same time.

The other way to reset the game counter is to receive an Egg from the Day-Care Man (or in the Manaphy Egg's case, from the Mystery Gift delivery man in the Poké Mart). Every time an Egg is received, the game automatically resets the Egg cycle step counter to zero, and counts as another Egg cycle completion. This can effectively cut 254 (255 in the third generation) steps off the Egg hatching process for every Egg accepted from the Day-Care Man (the Egg must be accepted, not rejected or denied due to a full team to reset the step counter). Although this detracts an Egg cycle from the Eggs, any Eggs ready to hatch upon this type of Egg cycle completion will be denied the ability to hatch until the next Egg cycle completion by steps, perhaps due to the dialogue between the player and the Day-Care Man following the pickup of an Egg.

For example, a {{p|Gligar}} Egg requires 21 Egg cycles to hatch, a minimum of 5355 steps if not interrupted by an Egg hatching or Egg pickup. After each Egg cycle is completed, this Egg will drop one Egg cycle count, down to 20, then 19, then 18, so on and so forth until the Egg count hits zero. If nothing restricts the Egg from hatching, the Egg will hatch into Gligar. If it is restricted, it will continue dropping into the negative numbers from the Egg cycles, and will continue to try hatching if the Egg is stopped from another Egg pickup.

There are ways to speed this system up. Riding a [[Bicycle]] would reduce the Egg's actual hatching time by increasing the step count faster, thus completing Egg cycles faster. From Pokémon Emerald onward, if a Pokémon with {{a|Flame Body}} or {{a|Magma Armor}} is in a player's [[party]], it doubles the Egg cycle count reduction, effectively halving the steps needed to hatch the Egg. In the Gligar example, the Egg would start at 21, and with {{p|Slugma}} in the party, the Egg would drop 2 Egg cycle counts after each Egg cycle, from 21 to 19 to 17 and so on. Multiple Pokémon with either abilities will not increase the Egg cycle reduction. {{game|Black and White|s}} introduced the {{DL|Entralink|Pass Powers|Pass Power}} Hatching Power, which increases the Egg hatch rate by 1.25×, 1.5×, or 2×, depending on the level used. [[Pokémon X and Y]] also has the Hatching Power, but instead as an [[O-Power]]. Hatching Power can also stack with the effects of either Flame Body or Magma Armor, allowing the player to further speed up hatching time.

===Passing moves down===
{{incomplete|section|needs=Results (pertaining to TM and HM inheritance when a genderless Pokémon breeds with Ditto) need to be checked in the games of Generation 4 (other than Platinum), and 5}}
The [[move]]s obtained by a Pokémon when hatching are as follows:
* By default, the baby Pokémon will start with any moves that it learns at level 1. (In [[Generation II]] and [[Generation III]], they knew all moves that are level 5 and below in their learnset.)
* If both parents know a move that the baby can learn via leveling up, the Pokémon will inherit that move.
* Prior to Generation VI, if the father knows any [[TM]] or [[HM]] moves (and in {{v2|Crystal}}, [[Move Tutor]] moves) that the baby is also compatible with, it will inherit the move. If a genderless Pokémon breeds with Ditto, the resultant baby will inherit any compatible TM or HM moves that the genderless non-Ditto Pokémon parent knows.
**Any passable moves the mother knows now take priority over the father's moves.
* If either parent (or, prior to Generation VI, the father) knows any specific [[Egg move]]s that the baby can learn, the baby will inherit the move.
* From {{game|Emerald}} onward, for a baby {{p|Pichu}}, if either parent is holding a [[Light Ball]], the Pichu will know {{m|Volt Tackle}}. Volt Tackle cannot be passed down as a normal Egg move.

If this would result in the baby possessing more than four moves, the moves take priority in the order listed: Volt Tackle, mother's Egg moves, father's Egg moves, TM and HM moves, inherited level-up moves, baby's default moveset. The moves passed down will ordered on the baby Pokémon by the priority listed above.

===Inheriting stats===
A Pokémon's [[individual values]] are also passed down. This is determined differently between generations.

====Generation II====
In Generation II games, the baby inherits its [[stats]] from the parent of the opposite gender, unless one parent is Ditto, and in that case it inherits the stats from Ditto. The Defense {{IV}} is passed, and also either the Special IV or the Special IV plus or minus 8 (plus for values in the 0-7 range; minus for values in the 8-15 range); the Special IV has a 50% chance of remaining the same. Attack and Speed IVs are determined entirely at random, whereas HP is determined by the IVs of the other four stats, using the same formula for wild Pokémon. The probability of a Pokémon having the same IVs as its opposite-gender parent is therefore 1/512.

If the Defense IVs of two partners are the same, and the Special IVs are either the same or differ by 8, they are incompatible. This is due to the high likelihood of a family relation, hence the inability to breed.

====Generation III====
In {{game3|Ruby and Sapphire|Pokémon Ruby, Sapphire|s}}, {{v2|FireRed and LeafGreen|s}}, exactly three of the baby's IVs are inherited from its parents (e.g. if one parent contributes two IVs, its mate will contribute the third). The other three are determined at random, though it is possible that some of these may coincide with those of its parents without actually being inherited.

In {{game|Emerald}}, the process is similar but more complicated. First, a random IV is passed from one of the parents to the baby. Afterwards, a random IV of any stat (other than HP) is passed from either parent to the baby; if it is the same stat (not necessarily the same IV value, depending on whether or not the same parent passed it on), it will override it. Finally, another random IV of any stat other than HP and Defense is passed from one of the parents to the baby; this IV will override any of the previous two if it is from the same stat. The remaining stats (a number ranging from 3 to 5) are determined at random, again with the possibility of one or more IVs coinciding with those of the parents.

====Generation IV====
Inheriting IVs in {{game|Diamond and Pearl|s}} is determined in the same way as in {{game|Emerald}}.

From {{game|Platinum}} on, the baby will inherit three IVs, each from a different stat and from a random parent. In addition, now if either or both parents hold an [[EV-enhancing item]] (excluding the Macho Brace), the baby will instead receive the IV of the corresponding stat from one of those parents, then inheriting two other random IVs each from a random parent. For example, if a parent is holding the Power Anklet, the baby will inherit the {{stat|Speed}} IV from that parent, and it will also inherit two other different IVs from its parents, such as Attack and Special Defense. As another example, if one parent holds a Power Anklet and the other parent holds a Power Weight, the baby will inherit either the Speed IV from the first parent or the {{stat|HP}} IV from the second parent, and it will also inherit two different IVs from its parents other than Speed or HP. This system is retained in {{2v2|HeartGold|SoulSilver}}.

====Generation V====
Inheriting IVs in Generation V is determined in the same way as in {{game|Platinum}}, {{2v2|HeartGold|SoulSilver}}.

====Generation VI====
From {{g|X and Y}} onward, if at least one parent holds a {{DL|In-battle effect item|Destiny Knot}}, the baby will inherit five IVs instead of three.

This can be combined with an [[EV-enhancing item]] to ensure that one desired IV is always inherited; however, the offspring will still inherit only a ''total'' of five IVs from its parents (one from the EV-enhancing item and four from the Destiny Knot).

===Inheriting Natures===
In {{game|Emerald}}, if the mother (in a male-female pair) or {{p|Ditto}} (in a pair that includes Ditto) is holding an {{evostone|Everstone}}, the baby has a 50% chance of inheriting that Pokémon's [[Nature]].

In Diamond, Pearl, and Platinum, inheriting Natures remains the same as in Emerald, except that passing on Natures via an Everstone will not work if the Pokémon are from different real-world countries (e.g. Argentina and Spain).

In HeartGold and SoulSilver, whichever Pokémon is holding an {{evostone|Everstone}} will have a chance of passing down its Nature, regardless of gender, or whether it is breeding with a Ditto.

In Black and White, inheriting Natures remains the same as in HeartGold and SoulSilver, except that passing on Natures via an Everstone will now work even if the Pokémon are from different real-world countries.

From {{2v2|Black|White|2}} onward, if one parent holds an {{evostone|Everstone}}, its Nature will always be passed down. If both parents are holding an {{evostone|Everstone}}, a parent's Nature will still always be passed down, but which parent's Nature is passed down is randomly determined.

===Inheriting Abilities===
{{incomplete|section|needs=Chance of Hidden Ability being passed down from a male or genderless Pokémon in Generation VI, and confirmation whether the female hidden ability transfer chance remains the same.}}
In Generation V, female Pokémon with [[Ability#Hidden Abilities|Hidden Abilities]] have a 60% chance of passing on the Hidden Ability to their offspring when bred with a male Pokémon from the same [[Egg Group]]. For example, if a female {{p|Darmanitan}} with {{a|Zen Mode}} breeds with a male {{p|Simisage}}, the offspring {{p|Darumaka}} may have {{a|Inner Focus}} instead of the usual {{a|Hustle}}, and would evolve into a Darmanitan with Zen Mode (instead of {{a|Sheer Force}}). Hidden Abilities cannot be passed down from male or genderless Pokémon, and will not be passed down if the female was paired with a {{p|Ditto}}.

In Generation VI, any Pokémon, including male and genderless Pokémon, can pass down their Hidden Ability when bred with Ditto. Ditto's Ability is irrelevant to inheritance. If the male is bred with another Pokémon from the same egg group, Hidden Abilities will not be passed down.

Starting in {{2v2|Black|White|2}}, there is an 80% chance that the [[Ability]] slot of the female will be passed to the baby. For example, when breeding a female {{p|Pinsir}} with {{a|Hyper Cutter}}, the resultant {{p|Pinsir}} has an 80% chance of having {{a|Hyper Cutter}} rather than {{a|Mold Breaker}}. This chance does not apply if Ditto is used as either parent.

===Inheriting Poké Balls===
Prior to Generation VI, all hatched Pokémon are obtained in a standard red-and-white {{ball|Poké}}.

Starting in Generation VI, the [[Poké Ball]] of the female Pokémon (other than a [[Master Ball]] and {{ball|Cherish}}, which result in the default standard Poké Ball) will be passed down to its offspring. Male and genderless Pokémon (including Ditto) have no impact on the type of Poké Ball inherited; as such, when breeding a male or genderless Pokémon with Ditto (which is the only way to breed certain species), the offspring is always obtained in a standard Poké Ball.

===Breeding for Shininess===
{{incomplete|section|needs=Generation VI}}
====Generation II====
In [[Generation II]], due to Shininess being determined by IVs and the fact that IVs are passed down through breeding, it is possible for an Egg bred from a Shiny Pokémon to have a chance as high as 1/64 of being Shiny itself, but only if the offspring is of the opposite gender as the Shiny parent. This is not possible in any later generations due to Shininess no longer being related to IVs.

====Generation III====
In [[Generation III]], a bred Pokémon always has the same chance of being Shiny as any Pokémon met in the wild.

====Generation IV====
In Generation IV, there is now a 5/8192 (~1/1639) chance of hatching a [[Shiny Pokémon]] when the parents are from games from different countries, a five times increase of the usual rate. This mechanic is known as the [[Masuda method]], after [[Junichi Masuda]].

====Generation V====
In Generation V, the [[Masuda method]]'s success rate increased from 5/8192 (~1/1639) to 6/8192 (~1/1366).

In {{game|Black and White|s|Pokémon Black 2 and White 2|2}}, the [[Shiny Charm]] was introduced, which if owned by the player will increase the chance of encountering or hatching a Shiny Pokémon by a flat 2/8192, to 3/8192 (~1/2731) for a regularly bred Pokémon, or 8/8192 (1/1024) if the parents are from games from different countries.

==In the anime==
In the {{pkmn|anime}}, Pokémon breeding refers to an entire line of work practiced by {{tc|Pokémon Breeder}}s, such as {{an|Brock}}. So far, the anime has shown and discussed little about the literal breeding of Pokémon to produce Eggs, but it is assumed this is part of a Pokémon Breeder's work. It has been shown that {{pkmn|Professor}}s get their [[starter Pokémon]] from breeders who specifically raise and breed them, like [[Old Man Swamp]] from ''[[AG025|A Mudkip Mission]]''. There are also a few farm-like facilities that produce [[Pokémon Egg]]s of various species. {{Ash}} received [[Ash's Donphan|his]] {{AP|Eggs|Scraggy}} from such locations, as did {{an|May}} and her [[May's Glaceon|Egg]].

Pokémon breeding in the anime focuses heavily on raising healthy Pokémon and keeping them in top condition by [[Pokémon groomer|grooming]] them well and feeding them nutritious {{pkmn|food}}.

==Trivia==
* Some unusual pairings of Pokémon can be found within the Egg Groups, such as {{p|Seviper}} and {{p|Zangoose}} (which are even said to be mortal enemies), and the most famous pairing [[HSOWA|Skitty and Wailord]]. However, the characters in the game make special mention of the fact that no one has seen Pokémon breed.
* {{p|Nidorina}} and {{p|Nidoqueen}} cannot breed, despite the fact that their pre-evolution {{p|Nidoran♀}} and the {{p|Nidoran♂}} line can.
* Although [[Legendary Pokémon]] except {{p|Manaphy}} (and debatably {{p|Phione}}) cannot breed in the [[core series]] games, {{pkmn|Egg}}s containing {{p|Articuno}}, {{p|Zapdos}} and {{p|Moltres}} can be hatched in [[Pokémon Snap]] and a baby {{p|Lugia}} has been seen in the {{pkmn|anime}}. Likewise, {{p|Manaphy}} can be hatched from a special Egg from {{ga|Pokémon Ranger}} in the Generation IV games.
* When a Pokémon hatches from an Egg during both [[Generation II]] and [[Generation III]], it is at [[level]] 5. However, many Pokémon from the wild can be found between levels 2 and 4, which is below the level of newly hatched Pokémon. This oddity had since been addressed from [[Generation IV]] onwards, where all hatched Pokémon start at level 1.
* The [[Pokémon Mansion journals]] (which predate Generation II's introduction of breeding) describe Mew giving birth as opposed to producing an Egg. These were not changed in {{game|FireRed and LeafGreen|s}}. It is unclear as to whether this is meant literally or metaphorically.

==External links==
* [http://www.legendarypokemon.net/breeding Legendary Pokémon's advanced breeding information]
* [http://www.smogon.com/ingame/guides/breeding_guide_part1 Smogon's detailed guide on breeding and Egg-hatching]
* [http://www.upokecenter.com/content/pokemon-gold-version-silver-version-and-crystal-version-breeding The Ultimate Pokémon Center's Generation II breeding guide]
{{-}}
{{training}} 
{{Project Games notice|game mechanic}}

[[Category:Pokémon world]]
[[Category:Game mechanics]]
[[Category:Terminology]]

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[[it:Accoppiamento Pokémon]]
[[ja:遺伝]]
[[pl:Hodowla]]
[[zh:神奇宝贝培育]]

Talk:Berry Master

2014-06-21T17:44:30Z

Pokepro97: /* Wife - Not all Berry givers mentioned */ new section

{| style="background: #EEE8AA; border: 2px solid #BDB76B; -moz-border-radius: 1em;"
|
==From merge with "Berry Master's wife"==
===Unnecessary Page?===
I just realized that most if not all of the content on this article is repeated on the Berry Master page. Should this article be merged or deleted, or is there a reason for it being like this?
--[[User:AndyPKMN|AndyPKMN]] 23:38, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
:I say DELETE!!! I'm back! ''Alpha'' [[User:CuboneKing|Cu]][[User talk:CuboneKing|bo]][[Special:Contributions/CuboneKing|ne]][[Cubone (Pokémon)|King]] 23:41, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
::Rather than deleting, I'd say Merge it. Most of the information is on the Berry Master's page. If there's an entire family related to the Berry Master, perhaps give them a combined page, like the Winstrate family?--[[User:Purimpopoie|Purimpopoie]] 00:18, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Redirected. All the information was there anyway. —'''darklord[[User talk:The dark lord trombonator|trom]]''' 00:26, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
|}

== Super ==

I'm trying to give the phrase "Super Hustle" to the Berry Master's wife, but I don't seem to have the word "super" in my easy chat. Anyone know how to get it? [[User:RS89|RS89]] ([[User talk:RS89|talk]]) 05:30, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
:I haven't been able to see anything on how new words are unlocked on this wiki, but they are in various ways. I would assume super would appear once the player has participated in a Super Rank contest, or even something as simple as using a Super Potion/Repel/Other. Can't help other than that because I had unlocked it as soon as I tried, [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 17:43, 21 June 2014 (UTC).

== Wife - Not all Berry givers mentioned ==

One Berry giver is the one at the flower shop south of Rustoborro City, this is not mentioned even though the wife mentions you should visit it at some stage. Thanks, [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 17:44, 21 June 2014 (UTC).

Talk:Berry Master

2014-06-21T17:43:02Z

Pokepro97: /* Super */

Talk:Lilycove City

2014-06-21T17:39:03Z

Pokepro97: /* Gentleman - Berry Giver */ new section

== [[Pokémon Trainer Fan Club]] ==

Well, I noticed on the deletion log that this article was removed the final day of last year. (or week) And I'm wondering why it was. [[User:TheBlazikenMaster|TheBlazikenMaster]] 13:51, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

== Population ==

If its counting people shopping in the dept. store, its probably not right as they are day trippers (if you know what i mean) [[User:Maril and Co.|Maril and Co.]] 07:29, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

== Fishing ==

Why is it that there are only % statistics for hooking certain Pokémon when using the ''Old Rod''? What happened to all of the others? [[User:FrozenStrategy|FrozenStrategy]] 22:39, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
:If you know the statistics, feel free to put them in, otherwise it's going to stay like this. —♥ [[User:Jello|Jel]][[User Talk:Jello|lo]] 23:05, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

== "Flavor Lady?" ==
In the Lilycove Pokémon Centre on Emerald there is a woman that looks like an Armoa Lady. She calls herself the "Flavor Lady" and asked me for something sticky. I had the option to give her something and chose an Oran Berry. Has anyone else met her? Does she do anything interesting? [[User:FrozenStrategy|FrozenStrategy]] 19:55, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
:That was actually the [[Favor Lady]]. —'''darklord[[User talk:The dark lord trombonator|trom]]''' 06:56, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

==Rival==
There is no data for the rival's pokemon in emerald.
I think this should be added {{unsigned|Plokool}}
:[http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Lilycove_City#Trainers Yes there is]. Also, please sign your comments with the four tildes <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>. --[[Tracey Sketchit|'''ケンジ''']][[User talk:Kenji-girl|'''の''']][[User:Kenji-girl|'''ガール''']] 01:42, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
::I recently started a new game in emerald, and the Rival in lilycove had a peliper instead of a swellow. I know this is a bit trivial but i think it should be added in none the less [[User:Plokool|Plokool]] 14:36, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

=="Fourth largest city in the Pokemon World"==

Isn't Jubilife City larger than Lilycove City? Jubilife City has population of 124 in Platinum, while Lilycove City has 123. Or is the population determinated by population in the first versions? If that's the case it should be changed. {{unsigned|Ariano}}
: Judging from article content, it goes by the first versions and not the Third Version games from generations. [[User:Frozen Fennec|Frozen Fennec]] 15:53, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
:: There propably is no standard for that... Most recent would make the most sense I think. [[User:Ariano|Ariano]] 17:29, 17 February 2012 (UTC)Ariano

== Gentleman - Berry Giver ==

There is no note to the gentleman that gives a berry each day or what berries he gives. He is mentioned on the Berry Master page here: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Berry_Master#Berry_Master.27s_wife . Thanks, [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 17:39, 21 June 2014 (UTC).

Talk:Rock Blast (move)

2014-06-21T01:47:29Z

Pokepro97: /* Poor Average Damage */ new section

Is the substitute clause tested for actually ending, or does it only continue in Generation IV? [[User:Gywall|Gywall]] 15:30, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
* Noticed that it continues past Substitute in Pokemon XD, I don't know about other Gen III games ([[User:Shivafang|Shivafang]] 14:25, 19 January 2012 (UTC))

== Poor Average Damage ==

Article contains average damage, but ignores accuracy, making it a pointless calculation. Can I add on the average damage including accuracy? This is very important because it is the only difference between Rock Blast and Rock Slide for a Pokemon with standard accuracy and no ability like Skill Link or Technician. Thanks, [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 01:47, 21 June 2014 (UTC).

Talk:Sucker Punch (move)

2014-06-15T10:53:11Z

Pokepro97: /* Used against sleeping/ frozen/paralysed/confused targets who do not wake/de-thaw/succeed move */ new section

What does it mean "''Readying an attack''" - Tesh - 21:59pm 9th July 2007
:It means that it only works if the opponent is using a damage-dealing move. '''[[User:TTEchidna|T]][[User talk:TTEchidna|T]][[wp:Echidna|Echidna]]''' 21:21, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Ah, Thanks For That. - [[User:Tesh|Tesh]] -

== Term should be included ==

"Despite being called "Sucker Punch", it isn't really a punching attack, as many Pokémon that learn this attack do not even possess arms that can deliver a punch."

This sentence is useless on it's own as it does not explain why the move is called "Sucker Punch" despite Pokémon without arms learning it. Maybe the term for a sucker punch should be included with a reference to the direct Japanese translation as proof?

:Why can't it be a punch? {{p|Gastly}} can learn {{m|Fire Punch}}, {{m|Ice Punch}} and {{m|ThunderPunch}} through breeding. It obviously has no arms. ~[[User:SaturnYoshi|'''$aturn''']][[User:SaturnYoshi|'''¥oshi''']] [[User talk:SaturnYoshi|THE VOICES]] 15:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

A sucker punch isn't limited to a punch, it can be any type of attack. The term "sucker punch" refers to a tactic used to get the upperhand in a fight unfairly usually through deception and with the foe unaware. An example would be hitting someone in the back of the head from behind. [[User:Tywddle|Tywddle]] 15:15, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Twyddle is right. A sucker punch is pretty much nothing but a "cheap shot" in a fight; it doesn't matter if you punch them, kick them, or anything like that. [[User:Diachronos|Diachronos]] 16:13, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

== Used against sleeping/ frozen/paralysed/confused targets who do not wake/de-thaw/succeed move ==

I was wondering if sucker punch worked if a sleeping, frozen, paralysed, confused, immobilised etc. targets if they select a damaging move and do not actually use the move after sucker punch is used.

I was also wondering if moves that have no effect can be hit with a sucker punch. Thanks, [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 10:53, 15 June 2014 (UTC).

Talk:Meteor Falls

2014-06-15T04:49:09Z

Pokepro97: /* Requires Waterfall */

I know there is a lot more trainers here then just Steven. There is an expert couple and one of only two dragon tamers there too [[User:Don Lark Kiin|Don Lark Kiin]] 17:34, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

== Zubat/Golbat ==

Is the Pokémon found while Surfing on 1F 2R & 2F 1R Zubat or Golbat? Zubat's name is listed, but Golbat's picture is there and Golbat is the encounter on all the other floors. [[User:Schreiber|Schrei]][[User talk:Schreiber|ber]] 02:36, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
: Right name, wrong sprite. It's been fixed. [[User:Frozen Fennec|Frozen Fennec]] 02:52, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

== Requires Waterfall ==

Nowhere on the page does it say that waterfall is required for navigation or to obtain any of the items. Such as it says Dragon Claw is obtained "In the dead-end back room (requires Surf)" when it also requires waterfall, [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 04:49, 15 June 2014 (UTC).

Edit: Forgot to sign, [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 04:49, 15 June 2014 (UTC).

Talk:Meteor Falls

2014-06-15T04:48:40Z

Pokepro97: /* Requires Waterfall */ new section

User talk:Pokepro97

2014-05-28T12:37:18Z

Pokepro97: /* Artificial Intelligence */

{| cellspacing="7" class="roundy" style="border: 1px solid #3e7614;" align="center"
| class="roundytop" style="background: #c4e673; border: 1px solid #3e7614; font-size: 160%; padding-left: 20px;" align="left" height="50px" | '''Welcome to Bulbapedia, Pokepro97!'''
|-
| valign="top" |
{| align="right" style="background: #E0F2B6; border: 1px solid #3e7614; padding:8px; {{roundy|100px}}"
| [[File:Bulbapedia bulb.png|100px|center]]
|}
By creating your account you are now able to edit pages, join discussions, and expand the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia. Before you jump in, here are some ground rules:
* Be nice to everyone. It's in the {{bp|code of conduct}}.
* Make good edits. Preview them before you save to make sure they're perfect the first time around.
* Use {{bp|wikicode}} and {{bp|link templates}} when adding content to a page.
* Use proper grammar and spelling, and read the {{bp|manual of style}}.
* You can't create a userpage until you've added to the encyclopedia. It's a privilege. See the {{bp|userspace policy}}.
* Use {{bp|Talk page policy|talk pages}} to resolve editing disputes. Don't "edit war," or constantly re-edit/undo the same thing on a page.
* If you have a question about something, be proactive. Take a look at our {{bp|FAQ}}. If you're still stuck, ask for help. The {{bp|staff}} won't bite.
* Sign all talk page posts with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>). This will turn into your name and the time you wrote the comment.
* For more handy links, see the {{bp|welcome|welcome portal}}.
|-
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|-
| class="roundybottom" style="background: #c4e673; border: 1px solid #3e7614; padding-left: 20px;" | '''<div style="float: left; font-size: 110%;">Thank you, and have a good time editing here!</div>'''<div style="float: right; height: 20px; background: white; border-left: 10px solid #f3f5f1; {{roundybr|10px}}">  [[User:Frozen Fennec|Frozen Fennec]] 13:57, 22 July 2011 (UTC)  </div><div style="float: right; height: 20px; width: 10px; background: #DFF2B1; border-left: 10px solid #D3EC95;"> </div>
|}

== A few things ==

*Please don't reply to discussions over 6 months old. Unless the conversation in question hasn't been resolved, do not reply to outdated discussions.
::Sorry, I don't always check the date. [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 09:11, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
*Sign with four tildes, you seem to have done it on some occasion but didn't do it on another occasion.
::I realised I'd forgotten and went back and added them in two cases, my apologies again. [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 09:11, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
*You cannot use your talkpage as a substitute for your userspace. To create your userpage, you must have made a certain amount of edits.
Thank you for reading.--[[User:Force Fire|'''F'''orce]][[User talk:Force Fire|'''F'''ire]] 08:53, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
::Erm, sure<strikethrough>, but is there a way I can get what I typed back?</strikethrough>. Edit: Nevermind, found and restored it now, any chance you know of a template?. I briefly thought someone pedantic might delete it, but thought it unlikely considering it will be gone in a few days... I was surprised I hadn't done enough edits, but most must've been offline, my account is about three years old after all... [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 09:11, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

== Template mistake ==

I've noticed there is an error on your page. Your usage of "User Favorite Move" has "Pison" on the end, causing the template to not display correctly. Changing this to "Poison" will fix it. Regards, [[User:Schiffy|Schiffy (瀬藤健二)]] ([[User talk:Schiffy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Schiffy|Contribs]]) 16:24, 4/9/2014 (UTC)
: Thanks a heap. Looks like its been fixed o_O [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 04:45, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

==Talk Page Comments==
Removing talk page comments, including the initial welcome template, is prohibited per Bulbapedia's {{bp|talk page policy}}. Please do not remove any comments in the future. If you wish to clean old comments away, you should archive your talk page instead. Thank you! --[[User:Funktastic~!|'''It's''' '''Funktastic~!''']][[User talk:Funktastic~!|''話してください'']] 05:56, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
:Uhh, sorry. Even useless things like minor errors which are now gone?... [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 07:55, 17 April 2014 (UTC).

== Artificial Intelligence ==

You can create a userpage on it and the admins can decide whether it is notable or not. You can create the page by making [[User:Pokepro97/Artificial Intelligence]]. Also, don't create talk pages for pages that doesn't exist, go to an admin if you have an idea for a page. --[[User:Force Fire|'''F'''orce]][[User talk:Force Fire|'''F'''ire]] 12:29, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
:Sorry, how do I contact an admin / find a list of all admins? [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 12:37, 28 May 2014 (UTC).

Talk:Tropius (Pokémon)

2014-05-28T12:18:24Z

Pokepro97: /* Incorrect Base Capture Probability */

You know, I still don't see how it can be found in the Great Marsh. Look at its Dex area in the game, it says Area Unknown. Kangaskhan doesn't, and it's one of the Post-NDex rare Pokémon.

I'm inclined to say the same about Tangela, that it can't be found in DP... '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]{{ani|155|Fire echy}}[[User:TTEchidna/GSDS|GSDS!]]''' 22:45, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

== Name ==

Isn't it possible that the name could have come (directly or indirectly) from the genuine ancient reptile [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanystropheus Tanystropheus] (Tropius is surely a homophone with the tropheus bit) which apparently means 'Long Necked One'? --[[User:NeilTarrant|NeilTarrant]] 13:47, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
:I suppose... '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]{{ani|155|Fire echy}}[[User:TTEchidna/GSDS|GSDS!]]''' 23:49, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

== Triffid ==

It seems to me that Tropius share many characteristics with the fictional animal/plant hybrids known as triffids: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:JohnWyndham_TheDayOfTheTriffids.jpg

Perhaps this article should be updated to reflect this if enough people are in agreement?
[[User:Quadropheneom|Quadropheneom]] 17:19, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

== Leaf storm. ==

Wait, why is this move listed as an egg move? I mean Tropius can learn it by level up. [[User:TheBlazikenMaster|TheBlazikenMaster]] ([[User talk:TheBlazikenMaster|talk]]) 01:04, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
:It means you don't have to train Tropius up to level 71.--'''[[User:Dennou Zenshi|電禅]][[User talk:Dennou Zenshi|Den Zen]]''' 07:45, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
::Wait a minute, can't that apply to every move learned by leveling up? I might be wrong though. [[User:TheBlazikenMaster|TheBlazikenMaster]] ([[User talk:TheBlazikenMaster|talk]]) 22:13, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

== Incorrect Base Capture Probability ==

Minimum probability is 1/3 * Base, which for tropius is 0.667, page says it is 0.261. Yet to check if it's on any other Pokemon, [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 11:33, 28 May 2014 (UTC).

Edit: Calculations directly from the catch rate formula appear to give very high catch rates, formula [[here|Stats#In_Generation_III_onward]].
Formula in my spreadsheet where each cell reference is to a cell with the appropriate data to prove my math is correct:
=MIN((((((3*$B$2-2*$B$2*F4)*$C$2*D4)/(3*$B$2))*E4)/100),(1))
[[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 12:04, 28 May 2014 (UTC).

Talk:Tropius (Pokémon)

2014-05-28T12:04:44Z

Pokepro97: /* Incorrect Base Capture Probability */

You know, I still don't see how it can be found in the Great Marsh. Look at its Dex area in the game, it says Area Unknown. Kangaskhan doesn't, and it's one of the Post-NDex rare Pokémon.

I'm inclined to say the same about Tangela, that it can't be found in DP... '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]{{ani|155|Fire echy}}[[User:TTEchidna/GSDS|GSDS!]]''' 22:45, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

== Name ==

Isn't it possible that the name could have come (directly or indirectly) from the genuine ancient reptile [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanystropheus Tanystropheus] (Tropius is surely a homophone with the tropheus bit) which apparently means 'Long Necked One'? --[[User:NeilTarrant|NeilTarrant]] 13:47, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
:I suppose... '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]{{ani|155|Fire echy}}[[User:TTEchidna/GSDS|GSDS!]]''' 23:49, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

== Triffid ==

It seems to me that Tropius share many characteristics with the fictional animal/plant hybrids known as triffids: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:JohnWyndham_TheDayOfTheTriffids.jpg

Perhaps this article should be updated to reflect this if enough people are in agreement?
[[User:Quadropheneom|Quadropheneom]] 17:19, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

== Leaf storm. ==

Wait, why is this move listed as an egg move? I mean Tropius can learn it by level up. [[User:TheBlazikenMaster|TheBlazikenMaster]] ([[User talk:TheBlazikenMaster|talk]]) 01:04, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
:It means you don't have to train Tropius up to level 71.--'''[[User:Dennou Zenshi|電禅]][[User talk:Dennou Zenshi|Den Zen]]''' 07:45, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
::Wait a minute, can't that apply to every move learned by leveling up? I might be wrong though. [[User:TheBlazikenMaster|TheBlazikenMaster]] ([[User talk:TheBlazikenMaster|talk]]) 22:13, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

== Incorrect Base Capture Probability ==

Minimum probability is 1/3 * Base, which for tropius is 0.667, page says it is 0.261. Yet to check if it's on any other pokemon, [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 11:33, 28 May 2014 (UTC).
Edit: Calculations directly from the catch rate formula appear to give very high catch rates, formula [here|Stats#In_Generation_III_onward].
Formula in my spreadsheet where each cell reference is to a cell with the appropriate data to prove my math is correct:
=MIN((((((3*$B$2-2*$B$2*F4)*$C$2*D4)/(3*$B$2))*E4)/100),(1))
[[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 12:04, 28 May 2014 (UTC).

Talk:Tropius (Pokémon)

2014-05-28T11:33:22Z

Pokepro97: /* Incorrect Base Capture Probability */ new section

You know, I still don't see how it can be found in the Great Marsh. Look at its Dex area in the game, it says Area Unknown. Kangaskhan doesn't, and it's one of the Post-NDex rare Pokémon.

I'm inclined to say the same about Tangela, that it can't be found in DP... '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]{{ani|155|Fire echy}}[[User:TTEchidna/GSDS|GSDS!]]''' 22:45, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

== Name ==

Isn't it possible that the name could have come (directly or indirectly) from the genuine ancient reptile [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanystropheus Tanystropheus] (Tropius is surely a homophone with the tropheus bit) which apparently means 'Long Necked One'? --[[User:NeilTarrant|NeilTarrant]] 13:47, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
:I suppose... '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]{{ani|155|Fire echy}}[[User:TTEchidna/GSDS|GSDS!]]''' 23:49, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

== Triffid ==

It seems to me that Tropius share many characteristics with the fictional animal/plant hybrids known as triffids: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:JohnWyndham_TheDayOfTheTriffids.jpg

Perhaps this article should be updated to reflect this if enough people are in agreement?
[[User:Quadropheneom|Quadropheneom]] 17:19, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

== Leaf storm. ==

Wait, why is this move listed as an egg move? I mean Tropius can learn it by level up. [[User:TheBlazikenMaster|TheBlazikenMaster]] ([[User talk:TheBlazikenMaster|talk]]) 01:04, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
:It means you don't have to train Tropius up to level 71.--'''[[User:Dennou Zenshi|電禅]][[User talk:Dennou Zenshi|Den Zen]]''' 07:45, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
::Wait a minute, can't that apply to every move learned by leveling up? I might be wrong though. [[User:TheBlazikenMaster|TheBlazikenMaster]] ([[User talk:TheBlazikenMaster|talk]]) 22:13, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

== Incorrect Base Capture Probability ==

Minimum probability is 1/3 * Base, which for tropius is 0.667, page says it is 0.261. Yet to check if it's on any other pokemon, [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 11:33, 28 May 2014 (UTC).

Berry

2014-05-27T08:33:09Z

Pokepro97: /* Formula */ Corrected inspecific note

{{search|class of item|the held item that heals 10 HP in Generation II|Berry (Generation II)}}
[[File:Berry Basket.png|thumb|right|A basket filled with Berries; {{b|Tamato}}, {{b|Cheri}}, {{b|Nanab}}, {{b|Bluk}}, {{b|Razz}}, {{b|Aspear}}, {{b|Sitrus}}, and {{b|Oran}} are seen]]
'''Berries''' (Japanese: '''きのみ''' ''Berries'') are small, juicy, fleshy fruit. As in the real world, a large variety exists in the Pokémon world, with a large range of [[flavor]]s, names, and effects. First found in the [[Generation II]] games, many Berries have since become critical [[held item]]s in battle, where their various effects include HP and status condition restoration, stat enhancement, and even damage negation.

==In Generation II==
[[File:GSC Berry Tree.png|frame|A Berry tree in Gen II]]
In their introductory generation, Berries were somewhat hard to obtain, with a very limited amount of trees scattered across the Kanto and Johto regions, each giving out only one Berry of one of the ten types each day. Berries regenerated at midnight every day, and could be picked at any time. Wild Pokémon often held Berries, while several could be won as prizes in certain competitions. [[Apricorn]]s are seen by many as similar to these Berries, in regards to their maturity time, availability, and other aspects.

===List of Berries===
{{main|Berry (Generation II)}}
The main Berry list from Generation II incorporated several functions of different healing items into the group of ten Berries. The names were simplistic, often describing only what the Berry itself did, with names like PRZCureBerry and PSNCureBerry standing out to many.

{| class="roundy" style="margin:auto; border: 3px solid #{{gold color}}; background: #{{silver color}};"
|-
! class="roundytl" style=" background: #{{silver color light}};" | Name
! class="roundytr" style="background: #{{silver color light}};" | Effect
|- style="background:#FFFFFF;"
| {{DL|Berry (Generation II)|Berry}}
| Restores 10 {{stat|HP}}
|- style="background:#FFFFFF;"
| {{DL|Berry (Generation II)|Gold Berry}}
| Restores 30 HP
|- style="background:#FFFFFF;"
| {{DL|Berry (Generation II)|MysteryBerry}}
| Restores 5 {{PP}}
|- style="background:#FFFFFF;"
| {{DL|Berry (Generation II)|MiracleBerry}}
| Cures any [[status condition]]
|- style="background:#FFFFFF;"
| {{DL|Berry (Generation II)|Mint Berry}}
| Cures {{status|sleep}}
|- style="background:#FFFFFF;"
| {{DL|Berry (Generation II)|Burnt Berry}}
| Cures {{status|freeze}}
|- style="background:#FFFFFF;"
| {{DL|Berry (Generation II)|Ice Berry}}
| Cures {{status|burn}}
|- style="background:#FFFFFF;"
| {{DL|Berry (Generation II)|Bitter Berry}}
| Cures {{status|confusion}}
|- style="background:#FFFFFF;"
| {{DL|Berry (Generation II)|PRZCureBerry}}
| Cures {{status|paralysis}}
|-
| class="roundybl" style="background: #FFFFFF;" | {{DL|Berry (Generation II)|PSNCureBerry}}
| class="roundybr" style="background: #FFFFFF;" | Cures {{status|poison}}
|}

==In Generation III==
[[File:RSE Berry Tree.png|frame|{{ga|Brendan}} finding {{b|Oran}} and {{b|Pecha}} trees]]
[[File:Berries.png|thumb|left|Oran and Pecha Berries artwork]]
Much as other aspects of the Pokémon franchise received their most major updates in the transition from Generation II to Generation III, the Berry system was completely overhauled in [[Generation III]]. Each of the Berries introduced in Generation III was given a number, not unlike the [[Pokédex]] numbers given to Pokémon, with the first ten in this ordering system having identical or nearly-identical effects to the Berries of Generation II. Several more Berries, found at the end of the listing, are extremely rare, with effects similar to items like {{DL|Battle item|X Attack}}. A majority of Berries, however, find their only use in being made into [[Pokéblock]]s for {{pkmn|Contest}}s. In the same way most Pokémon resemble real-world animals, these Berries typically resemble real-world fruit (though not all fruit represented are Berries, botanically or in common parlance, in real life). Descriptive tags detail some of their traits, much like a Pokédex entry, which are often shared with their real-world counterparts.

Rather than regenerating at midnight and only producing one fruit, all Berries now have specific growth times - ranging from four hours to four days - and four stages of maturity which advance at quarters of the full maturity time. The Berries can be roughly grouped into sets with similar growth times, yields, flavors profiles, and uses. Berries may also be planted wherever there is [[soft soil]] now; a picked Berry plant now disappears, leaving behind soft soil, rather than staying fixed in the same spot forever.

In this generation, soft soil only exists in [[Hoenn]], however, and is not found in the [[Kanto]] or [[Orre]] regions. Thus, in {{3v2|Ruby|Sapphire|Emerald}}, Berries that the {{player}} obtains can be repeatedly grown in any patch of soft soil, but not in {{2v2|FireRed|LeafGreen}}. However, in FireRed and LeafGreen, many varieties of Berries can be repeatedly obtained in the [[Sevii Islands]]' [[Berry Forest]], where certain Berries regularly fall off trees and [[item#recurring items|regenerate themselves]].

In {{game2|FireRed|LeafGreen|Emerald}}, Berries can be ground up into [[Berry Powder]], which can be exchanged for [[herbal medicine]] or [[vitamin]]s in [[Cerulean City]] or [[Slateport City]].

In Pokémon Emerald, six Berries that were previously only usable for making Pokéblocks were given an additional use. If used on a Pokémon, the {{b|Pomeg}}, {{b|Kelpsy}}, {{b|Qualot}}, {{b|Hondew}}, {{b|Grepa}}, and {{b|Tamato}} Berries would now lower its [[effort values]] and raise its [[friendship]].

===List of Berries===
The Generation III Berry list has its core in the first ten Berries in order, with the ones coming last in sequence being among the most rare and sought after for their in-battle effect. A majority of these Berries are used solely for Pokéblock making, falling between those with other effects in the listing.

{{berrylist/h|3}}
{{berrylist|3|01|Cheri|Cures {{status|Paralysis}}}}
{{berrylist|3|02|Chesto|Cures {{status|Sleep}}}}
{{berrylist|3|03|Pecha|Cures {{status|Poison}}}}
{{berrylist|3|04|Rawst|Cures {{status|Burn}}}}
{{berrylist|3|05|Aspear|Cures {{status|Freeze}}}}
{{berrylist|3|06|Leppa|Restores 10 [[Power points|PP]]}}
{{berrylist|3|07|Oran|Restores 10 {{stat|Hit Points|HP}}}}
{{berrylist|3|08|Persim|Cures {{status|Confusion}}}}
{{berrylist|3|09|Lum|Cures any [[status condition]]}}
{{berrylist|3|10|Sitrus| Restores 30 {{stat|HP}}}}
{{berrylist|3|11|Figy|Restores 12.5% {{stat|Hit Points|HP}}, confuses Pokémon that dislike [[Flavor|spicy]] food}}
{{berrylist|3|12|Wiki|Restores 12.5% {{stat|Hit Points|HP}}, confuses Pokémon that dislike [[Flavor|dry]] food}}
{{berrylist|3|13|Mago|Restores 12.5% {{stat|Hit Points|HP}}, confuses Pokémon that dislike [[Flavor|sweet]] food}}
{{berrylist|3|14|Aguav|Restores 12.5% {{stat|Hit Points|HP}}, confuses Pokémon that dislike [[Flavor|bitter]] food}}
{{berrylist|3|15|Iapapa|Restores 12.5% {{stat|Hit Points|HP}}, confuses Pokémon that dislike [[Flavor|sour]] food}}
{{berrylist|3|16|Razz|[[Pokéblock]] ingredient only}}
{{berrylist|3|17|Bluk|[[Pokéblock]] ingredient only}}
{{berrylist|3|18|Nanab|[[Pokéblock]] ingredient only}}
{{berrylist|3|19|Wepear|[[Pokéblock]] ingredient only}}
{{berrylist|3|20|Pinap|[[Pokéblock]] ingredient only}}
{{berrylist|3|21|Pomeg|[[Pokéblock]] ingredient only{{sup/3|RS}} Lowers {{stat|HP}} {{EV}}s, raises [[friendship]]{{sup/3|E}}}}
{{berrylist|3|22|Kelpsy|[[Pokéblock]] ingredient only{{sup/3|RS}} Lowers {{stat|Attack}} {{EV}}s, raises [[friendship]]{{sup/3|E}}}}
{{berrylist|3|23|Qualot|[[Pokéblock]] ingredient only{{sup/3|RS}} Lowers {{stat|Defense}} {{EV}}s, raises [[friendship]]{{sup/3|E}}}}
{{berrylist|3|24|Hondew|[[Pokéblock]] ingredient only{{sup/3|RS}} Lowers {{stat|Special Attack}} {{EV}}s, raises [[friendship]]{{sup/3|E}}}}
{{berrylist|3|25|Grepa|[[Pokéblock]] ingredient only{{sup/3|RS}} Lowers {{stat|Special Defense}} {{EV}}s, raises [[friendship]]{{sup/3|E}}}}
{{berrylist|3|26|Tamato|[[Pokéblock]] ingredient only{{sup/3|RS}} Lowers {{stat|Speed}} {{EV}}s, raises [[friendship]]{{sup/3|E}}}}
{{berrylist|3|27|Cornn|[[Pokéblock]] ingredient only}}
{{berrylist|3|28|Magost|[[Pokéblock]] ingredient only}}
{{berrylist|3|29|Rabuta|[[Pokéblock]] ingredient only}}
{{berrylist|3|30|Nomel|[[Pokéblock]] ingredient only}}
{{berrylist|3|31|Spelon|[[Pokéblock]] ingredient only}}
{{berrylist|3|32|Pamtre|[[Pokéblock]] ingredient only}}
{{berrylist|3|33|Watmel|[[Pokéblock]] ingredient only}}
{{berrylist|3|34|Durin|[[Pokéblock]] ingredient only}}
{{berrylist|3|35|Belue|[[Pokéblock]] ingredient only}}
{{berrylist|3|36|Liechi|Raises {{stat|Attack}} when {{stat|HP}} falls below 25%}}
{{berrylist|3|37|Ganlon|Raises {{stat|Defense}} when {{stat|HP}} falls below 25%}}
{{berrylist|3|38|Salac|Raises {{stat|Speed}} when {{stat|HP}} falls below 25%}}
{{berrylist|3|39|Petaya|Raises {{stat|Special Attack}} when {{stat|HP}} falls below 25%}}
{{berrylist|3|40|Apicot|Raises {{stat|Special Defense}} when {{stat|HP}} falls below 25%}}
{{berrylist|3|41|Lansat|Raises {{DL|Damage modification|critical hit}} ratio when {{stat|HP}} falls below 25%}}
{{berrylist|3|42|Starf|Sharply raises a random [[Stats|stat]] when {{stat|HP}} falls below 25%}}
{{berrylist|3|43|Enigma|Placeholder for [[e-Reader]] Berries}}
|}

====e-Reader Berries====
The following Berries exist only in the games if the specific [[e-Reader]] card is swiped while the e-Reader is linked to a Ruby or Sapphire game cartridge. These Berries cannot be traded to other Generation III games, and if held by a Pokémon sent to Generation IV through [[Pal Park]], it will become an [[Enigma Berry]] when the Pokémon is recaught. As the e-Reader's lifespan was much shorter than expected by Nintendo, only two series of these special Berry e-cards were released, [[Pokémon Battle e: Series 1|the first]] both in Japan and internationally, and [[Pokémon Battle e: Series 2|the second]] only in Japan.

=====Series 1=====
{| class="roundy" style="margin:auto; border: 3px solid #{{ruby color}}; background: #{{sapphire color}};"
|-
! class="roundytl" style="background: #{{sapphire color light}};" | No.
! style="background: #{{sapphire color light}};" | Spr
! style="background: #{{sapphire color light}};" | Name
! class="roundytr" style="background: #{{sapphire color light}};" | Effect
|- style="background:#FFFFFF;"
! 43
| [[File:TagPumkin.png]]
| [[Pumkin Berry]]
| Cures {{status|freeze}}
|- style="background:#FFFFFF;"
! 43
| [[File:TagDrash.png]]
| [[Drash Berry]]
| Cures {{status|poison}}
|- style="background:#FFFFFF;"
! 43
| [[File:TagEggant.png]]
| [[Eggant Berry]]
| Cures {{status|infatuation}}
|- style="background:#FFFFFF;"
! 43
| [[File:TagStrib.png]]
| [[Strib Berry]]
| [[Pokéblock]] ingredient only
|- style="background:#FFFFFF;"
! 43
| [[File:TagChilanIII.png]]
| {{gdis|Chilan Berry|III}}
| [[Pokéblock]] ingredient only
|-
! class="roundybl" style="background:#FFFFFF;" | 43
| style="background:#FFFFFF;" | [[File:TagNutpea.png]]
| style="background:#FFFFFF;" | [[Nutpea Berry]]
| class="roundybr" style="background:#FFFFFF;" | [[Pokéblock]] ingredient only
|}

=====Series 2=====
These Berries were only available to players of Japanese games, as the second series of e-cards was never released outside of Japan. All names used are transliterated Japanese names, as these Berries do not have English names.

{| class="roundy" style="margin:auto; border: 3px solid #{{ruby color}}; background: #{{sapphire color}};"
|-
! class="roundytl" style="background: #{{sapphire color light}};" | No.
! style="background: #{{sapphire color light}};" | Spr
! style="background: #{{sapphire color light}};" | Name
! class="roundytr" style="background: #{{sapphire color light}};" | Effect
|- style="background:#FFFFFF;"
! 43
| [[File:TagGinema.png]]
| [[Ginema Berry]]
| Raises a lowered [[Stats|stat]]
|- style="background:#FFFFFF;"
! 43
| [[File:TagKuo.png]]
| [[Kuo Berry]]
| Cures {{status|burn}}
|- style="background:#FFFFFF;"
! 43
| [[File:TagYago.png]]
| [[Yago Berry]]
| [[Pokéblock]] ingredient only
|- style="background:#FFFFFF;"
! 43
| [[File:TagTouga.png]]
| [[Touga Berry]]
| Cures {{status|confusion}}
|- style="background:#FFFFFF;"
! 43
| [[File:TagNiniku.png]]
| [[Niniku Berry]]
| [[Pokéblock]] ingredient only
|-
! class="roundybl" style="background:#FFFFFF;" | 43
| style="background:#FFFFFF;" | [[File:TagTopo.png]]
| style="background:#FFFFFF;" | [[Topo Berry]]
| class="roundybr" style="background:#FFFFFF;" | [[Pokéblock]] ingredient only
|}

==In Generation IV==
[[File:DPPt Berry Tree.png|frame|{{ga|Dawn}} poses with her {{b|Razz}} and {{b|Bluk}} trees]]
Much like most other aspects of Generation III, Berries remained very much the same in Generation IV, with the main set of 43 carried over to the new games. The e-Reader Berries, perhaps due to their relative obscurity and exclusivity to Ruby and Sapphire (as the e-Reader was incompatible with the international releases of FireRed, LeafGreen, and Emerald), are not present in this generation, though {{gdis|Chilan Berry|III|one of them}} shares its name in all languages with one of the newly introduced Berries.

A total of 21 new Berries were introduced in Generation IV, with 16 of them weakening a {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} move of a certain type used on the holder, and a 17th weakening any {{type|Normal}} move used on the holder. The remaining four are exclusive to [[Event Pokémon|events]], being held by event Pokémon given out in conjunction with the four {{series|Diamond & Pearl}} {{pkmn|movie}}s. This brings the total number of Berries to 64.

Several Berries' growth times were changed in Generation IV, most notably that of the [[Tamato Berry]], which formerly grew in the same amount of time as the others in its flavor group, now grows in the same amount of time as the rest of the EV Berries. Other Berries whose growth times changed remained with the same growth times as the rest of their flavor group. Many Berries also received edits to their tree styles, with different palettes used to give each tree a more unique appearance, rather than the similar appearance several, most notably {{b|Razz}} and {{b|Bluk}}, had.
[[File:HGSS Berry Tree.png|left|frame|Miniature {{b|Wacan}} and {{b|Yache}} plants grow in the [[Berry Planter]]]]
[[File:Berry Pot.png|thumb|120px|A Berry Pot with a {{b|Leppa}} plant growing inside]]
In addition to the base growth time changes, caring for Berries now involves maintaining moist soil. When first planted, the soil will be fully moist. Each hour, the Berry plant will lose moisture based on its drying rate, turning orange when half dry, and sandy when completely dry. Watering a Berry plant makes it completely moist again.

Special [[mulch]] was introduced that could be spread over a patch of soft soil to alter the growth rate, drying rate, the length of time Berries stay on the plant, and then number of times the plant will regrow. This mulch is available only at the [[Berry Master]]'s house in [[Sinnoh]] or at the flower shop in [[Goldenrod City]] in [[Johto]].

Similar to how Berries were used in Generation III to make Pokéblocks, Berries can be used to make [[Poffin]]s, which achieves a similar [[condition]]-enhancing effect. Aside from this, those which have no in-battle effect can be traded in for [[Accessory|Accessories]] to be used to dress up Pokémon for {{pkmn|Super Contest}}s and pictures.

While in {{game2|Diamond|Pearl|Platinum}}, [[soft soil]] could be found in most places in [[Sinnoh]], much like in {{game2|Ruby|Sapphire|Emerald}}, no soft soil exists in [[Johto]] or [[Kanto]], visited in {{game|HeartGold and SoulSilver|s}}. The {{key|IV|Berry Pots}}, however, holds four portable patches of soft soil, allowing the player to carry their Berry trees with them anywhere.

===List of Berries===
The Generation IV Berry list is exactly the same as the Generation III list, but with all Berries falling after {{b|Belue}} moved back 17 places, to accommodate the type-resistant Berries. The other four event Berries are added to the end, after the [[Enigma Berry]]. All Berries now have some in-battle or out-of-battle use, but can also be used to make [[Poffin]]s.

{{berrylist/h|4}}
{{berrylist|4|01|Cheri|Cures {{status|Paralysis}}}}
{{berrylist|4|02|Chesto|Cures {{status|Sleep}}}}
{{berrylist|4|03|Pecha|Cures {{status|Poison}}}}
{{berrylist|4|04|Rawst|Cures {{status|Burn}}}}
{{berrylist|4|05|Aspear|Cures {{status|Freeze}}}}
{{berrylist|4|06|Leppa|Restores 10 [[Power points|PP]]}}
{{berrylist|4|07|Oran|Restores 10 {{stat|Hit Points|HP}}}}
{{berrylist|4|08|Persim|Cures {{status|Confusion}}}}
{{berrylist|4|09|Lum|Cures any [[status condition]]}}
{{berrylist|4|10|Sitrus|Restores 25% {{stat|Hit Points|HP}}}}
{{berrylist|4|11|Figy|Restores 12.5% {{stat|Hit Points|HP}}, confuses Pokémon that dislike [[Flavor|spicy]] food}}
{{berrylist|4|12|Wiki|Restores 12.5% {{stat|Hit Points|HP}}, confuses Pokémon that dislike [[Flavor|dry]] food}}
{{berrylist|4|13|Mago|Restores 12.5% {{stat|Hit Points|HP}}, confuses Pokémon that dislike [[Flavor|sweet]] food}}
{{berrylist|4|14|Aguav|Restores 12.5% {{stat|Hit Points|HP}}, confuses Pokémon that dislike [[Flavor|bitter]] food}}
{{berrylist|4|15|Iapapa|Restores 12.5% {{stat|Hit Points|HP}}, confuses Pokémon that dislike [[Flavor|sour]] food}}
{{berrylist|4|16|Razz|Able to be traded for [[Accessory|Accessories]]}}
{{berrylist|4|17|Bluk|Able to be traded for [[Accessory|Accessories]]}}
{{berrylist|4|18|Nanab|Able to be traded for [[Accessory|Accessories]]}}
{{berrylist|4|19|Wepear|Able to be traded for [[Accessory|Accessories]]}}
{{berrylist|4|20|Pinap|Able to be traded for [[Accessory|Accessories]]}}
{{berrylist|4|21|Pomeg|Lowers {{stat|Hit Points|HP}} [[Effort values|EV]]s, raises [[friendship]]}}
{{berrylist|4|22|Kelpsy|Lowers {{stat|Attack}} [[Effort values|EV]]s, raises [[friendship]]}}
{{berrylist|4|23|Qualot|Lowers {{stat|Defense}} [[Effort values|EV]]s, raises [[friendship]]}}
{{berrylist|4|24|Hondew|Lowers {{stat|Special Attack}} [[Effort values|EV]]s, raises [[friendship]]}}
{{berrylist|4|25|Grepa|Lowers {{stat|Special Defense}} [[Effort values|EV]]s, raises [[friendship]]}}
{{berrylist|4|26|Tamato|Lowers {{stat|Speed}} [[Effort values|EV]]s, raises [[friendship]]}}
{{berrylist|4|27|Cornn|Able to be traded for [[Accessory|Accessories]]}}
{{berrylist|4|28|Magost|Able to be traded for [[Accessory|Accessories]]}}
{{berrylist|4|29|Rabuta|Able to be traded for [[Accessory|Accessories]]}}
{{berrylist|4|30|Nomel|Able to be traded for [[Accessory|Accessories]]}}
{{berrylist|4|31|Spelon|Able to be traded for [[Accessory|Accessories]]}}
{{berrylist|4|32|Pamtre|Able to be traded for [[Accessory|Accessories]]}}
{{berrylist|4|33|Watmel|Able to be traded for [[Accessory|Accessories]]}}
{{berrylist|4|34|Durin|Able to be traded for [[Accessory|Accessories]]}}
{{berrylist|4|35|Belue|Able to be traded for [[Accessory|Accessories]]}}
{{berrylist|4|36|Occa|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Fire}} move}}
{{berrylist|4|37|Passho|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Water}} move}}
{{berrylist|4|38|Wacan|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Electric}} move}}
{{berrylist|4|39|Rindo|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Grass}} move}}
{{berrylist|4|40|Yache|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Ice}} move}}
{{berrylist|4|41|Chople|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Fighting}} move}}
{{berrylist|4|42|Kebia|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Poison}} move}}
{{berrylist|4|43|Shuca|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Ground}} move}}
{{berrylist|4|44|Coba|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Flying}} move}}
{{berrylist|4|45|Payapa|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Psychic}} move}}
{{berrylist|4|46|Tanga|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Bug}} move}}
{{berrylist|4|47|Charti|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Rock}} move}}
{{berrylist|4|48|Kasib|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Ghost}} move}}
{{berrylist|4|49|Haban|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Dragon}} move}}
{{berrylist|4|50|Colbur|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Dark}} move}}
{{berrylist|4|51|Babiri|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Steel}} move}}
{{berrylist|4|52|Chilan|Weakens foe's {{type|Normal}} move}}
{{berrylist|4|53|Liechi|Raises {{stat|Attack}} when {{stat|Hit Points|HP}} falls below 25%}}
{{berrylist|4|54|Ganlon|Raises {{stat|Defense}} when {{stat|Hit Points|HP}} falls below 25%}}
{{berrylist|4|55|Salac|Raises {{stat|Speed}} when {{stat|Hit Points|HP}} falls below 25%}}
{{berrylist|4|56|Petaya|Raises {{stat|Special Attack}} when {{stat|Hit Points|HP}} falls below 25%}}
{{berrylist|4|57|Apicot|Raises {{stat|Special Defense}} when {{stat|Hit Points|HP}} falls below 25%}}
{{berrylist|4|58|Lansat|Raises {{DL|Damage modification|critical hit}} ratio when {{stat|Hit Points|HP}} falls below 25%}}
{{berrylist|4|59|Starf|Sharply raises a random [[stats|stat]] when {{stat|Hit Points|HP}} falls below 25%}}
{{berrylist|4|60|Enigma|Restores holder's {{stat|Hit Points|HP}} if hit by a {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} move}}
{{berrylist|4|61|Micle|Raises the accuracy of one move when {{stat|Hit Points|HP}} falls below 25%}}
{{berrylist|4|62|Custap|Causes the holder to go first once when {{stat|Hit Points|HP}} falls below 25%}}
{{berrylist|4|63|Jaboca|Causes recoil on foe if holder is hit by a [[physical move]]}}
{{berrylist|4|64|Rowap|Causes recoil on foe if holder is hit by a [[special move]]}}
|}

==In Generation V==
[[File:DW Garden.png|thumb|300px|right|{{p|Mew}} visiting the {{pkmn|Dream World}} Garden, where a blooming {{b|Sitrus}} tree can be spotted.]]

Unlike most games since Ruby and Sapphire, when the mechanic of growing Berries was introduced, Black and White does not allow players to plant and grow Berries in [[Unova]]. Berries cannot be transferred from another region using the [[Poké Transfer]], but some wild Unova Pokémon (like {{p|Minccino}}) can be found holding them, and the player may obtain them as gifts from NPCs or Trainers (such as {{tc|Pokémon Ranger}}s), or purchase them from Florist shops at [[Join Avenue]] in {{2v2|Black|White|2}}.

Players were able to plant Berries in the [[Pokémon Dream World]] using the garden found in the area to the left of their Dream World home. Berries took 50% longer to grow in the Dream World compared to their growth rates in Generation IV. Two rows were available from the beginning for players to plant their Berries in, with each row containing spaces for three Berries. As the player accumulated Dream Points {{p|Diglett}} would show up to expand the garden by plowing a new row (starting with a third row added at 900 points), up to a maximum of ten rows.

As with Generation IV, the Berry plots required watering or they would dry out; a player could water their own Berries as often as needed (any time the garden soil is not described as "very moist"), and when visiting another player's home could water their Berries as well (up to 20 times for each voyage to the Dream World). This process of growing Berries in concentrated patches made growing and cultivating more efficient as a counterbalance to the slower growth rate. Berry plants never died and resprouted in the Dream World—they remained in their fruit-bearing stage until the Berries were picked.

Berries may be sold to an [[item maniac]] on {{rt|5|Unova}} for various amounts, depending on the kind of Berry. This is also the sole use for Berries that do not serve a purpose in battles.
* Berries that can be sold for {{pdollar}}30000 include: {{b|Lansat}}, {{b|Starf}}, {{b|Enigma}}, {{b|Micle}}, {{b|Custap}}, {{b|Jaboca}}, and {{b|Rowap}}.
* Berries that can be sold for {{pdollar}}500 include: {{b|Razz}}, {{b|Bluk}}, {{b|Nanab}}, {{b|Wepear}}, {{b|Pinap}}, {{b|Cornn}}, {{b|Magost}}, {{b|Rabuta}}, {{b|Nomel}}, {{b|Spelon}}, {{b|Pamtre}}, {{b|Watmel}}, {{b|Durin}}, and {{b|Belue}}.
* Berries that can be sold for {{pdollar}}20 include any Berry not listed above.

Within the Dream World, combinations of Berries could be traded for [[Décor]].

If the [[bag]] is sorted, it uses the same order of Berries in Generation IV except that all Berries that do not serve a purpose are moved to the end of the list.

==In Generation VI==

{{main|Berry fields}}

In [[Pokémon X and Y]], Berry farming is managed from one location: A Berry farm located just south of [[Kalos Route 7]]. The field contains six rows with six plots each, allowing the player to cultivate a large number of Berry plants at once. It also contains two composters, into which the player can insert combinations of three Berries to acquire [[Mulch]] with varying effects on Berry growth.

Berries themselves can be acquired from large Berry trees growing along the various Kalos routes, from certain NPCs, and from [[natural objects]]. The large Berry trees will drop a new Berry for the player to pick up on midnight of the day a week after the last Berry was picked up.

A few new Berries are introduced this generation.

===List of Berries===

{{incomplete|section}}
{{berrylist/h|6}}
{{berrylist|6||Cheri|Cures {{status|Paralysis}}}}
{{berrylist|6||Chesto|Cures {{status|Sleep}}}}
{{berrylist|6||Pecha|Cures {{status|Poison}}}}
{{berrylist|6||Rawst|Cures {{status|Burn}}}}
{{berrylist|6||Aspear|Cures {{status|Freeze}}}}
{{berrylist|6||Leppa|Restores 10 [[Power points|PP]]}}
{{berrylist|6||Oran|Restores 10 {{stat|Hit Points|HP}}}}
{{berrylist|6||Persim|Cures {{status|Confusion}}}}
{{berrylist|6||Lum|Cures any [[status condition]]}}
{{berrylist|6||Sitrus|Restores 25% {{stat|Hit Points|HP}}}}
{{berrylist|6||Figy|Restores 12.5% {{stat|Hit Points|HP}}, confuses Pokémon that dislike [[Flavor|spicy]] food}}
{{berrylist|6||Wiki|Restores 12.5% {{stat|Hit Points|HP}}, confuses Pokémon that dislike [[Flavor|dry]] food}}
{{berrylist|6||Mago|Restores 12.5% {{stat|Hit Points|HP}}, confuses Pokémon that dislike [[Flavor|sweet]] food}}
{{berrylist|6||Aguav|Restores 12.5% {{stat|Hit Points|HP}}, confuses Pokémon that dislike [[Flavor|bitter]] food}}
{{berrylist|6||Iapapa|Restores 12.5% {{stat|Hit Points|HP}}, confuses Pokémon that dislike [[Flavor|sour]] food}}
{{berrylist|6||Pomeg|Lowers {{stat|Hit Points|HP}} [[Effort values|EV]]s, raises [[friendship]]}}
{{berrylist|6||Kelpsy|Lowers {{stat|Attack}} [[Effort values|EV]]s, raises [[friendship]]}}
{{berrylist|6||Qualot|Lowers {{stat|Defense}} [[Effort values|EV]]s, raises [[friendship]]}}
{{berrylist|6||Hondew|Lowers {{stat|Special Attack}} [[Effort values|EV]]s, raises [[friendship]]}}
{{berrylist|6||Grepa|Lowers {{stat|Special Defense}} [[Effort values|EV]]s, raises [[friendship]]}}
{{berrylist|6||Tamato|Lowers {{stat|Speed}} [[Effort values|EV]]s, raises [[friendship]]}}
{{berrylist|6||Occa|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Fire}} move}}
{{berrylist|6||Passho|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Water}} move}}
{{berrylist|6||Wacan|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Electric}} move}}
{{berrylist|6||Rindo|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Grass}} move}}
{{berrylist|6||Yache|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Ice}} move}}
{{berrylist|6||Chople|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Fighting}} move}}
{{berrylist|6||Kebia|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Poison}} move}}
{{berrylist|6||Shuca|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Ground}} move}}
{{berrylist|6||Coba|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Flying}} move}}
{{berrylist|6||Payapa|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Psychic}} move}}
{{berrylist|6||Tanga|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Bug}} move}}
{{berrylist|6||Charti|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Rock}} move}}
{{berrylist|6||Kasib|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Ghost}} move}}
{{berrylist|6||Haban|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Dragon}} move}}
{{berrylist|6||Colbur|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Dark}} move}}
{{berrylist|6||Babiri|Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Steel}} move}}
{{berrylist|6||Chilan|Weakens foe's {{type|Normal}} move}}
{{berrylist|6||Liechi|Raises {{stat|Attack}} when {{stat|Hit Points|HP}} falls below 25%}}
{{berrylist|6||Ganlon|Raises {{stat|Defense}} when {{stat|Hit Points|HP}} falls below 25%}}
{{berrylist|6||Salac|Raises {{stat|Speed}} when {{stat|Hit Points|HP}} falls below 25%}}
{{berrylist|6||Petaya|Raises {{stat|Special Attack}} when {{stat|Hit Points|HP}} falls below 25%}}
{{berrylist|6||Apicot|Raises {{stat|Special Defense}} when {{stat|Hit Points|HP}} falls below 25%}}
{{berrylist|6||Lansat|Raises [[critical hit]] ratio when {{stat|Hit Points|HP}} falls below 25%}}
{{berrylist|6||Starf|Sharply raises a random [[stats|stat]] when {{stat|Hit Points|HP}} falls below 25%}}
{{berrylist|6||Enigma|Restores holder's {{stat|Hit Points|HP}} if hit by a {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} move}}
{{berrylist|6||Micle|Raises the accuracy of one move when {{stat|Hit Points|HP}} falls below 25%}}
{{berrylist|6||Custap|Causes the holder to go first once when {{stat|Hit Points|HP}} falls below 25%}}
{{berrylist|6||Jaboca|Causes recoil on foe if holder is hit by a [[physical move]]}}
{{berrylist|6||Rowap|Causes recoil on foe if holder is hit by a [[special move]]}}
|- style="background:#FFFFFF;"
!
|[[File:Bag Roseli Berry Sprite.png]] || [[Roseli Berry]] || Weakens foe's {{DL|Damage modification|super effective}} {{type|Fairy}} move || || || || ||
|- style="background:#FFFFFF;"
!
|[[File:Bag Kee Berry Sprite.png]] || [[Kee Berry]] ||Raises {{stat|Defense}} if holder is hit by a [[physical move]]|| || || || ||
|- style="background:#FFFFFF;"
!
|[[File:Bag Maranga Berry Sprite.png]] || [[Maranga Berry]] ||Raises {{stat|Special Defense}} if holder is hit by a [[special move]]|| || || || ||
|}

==Proper care of Berry plants==
After a Berry is planted in soft soil, a player can ignore it until it bears fruit, which will often yield more Berries than initially planted, as most Berry trees will bear more than one fruit at minimum. Truly effective care, however, requires that the player pay close attention to the growing times, watering it, and picking it when it bears fruit so as to reap the benefit.

===In Generation III===
In general, plants must be watered at least once per growth period in order to get the maximum yield. When a plant is fully-grown, the player has an amount of time equal to the full growth time of the plant to pick the Berry; otherwise the plant will return to its "sprouting" stage. This can be done up to 9 times (for a total of 10 plantings) before the plant is permanently lost.

====Formula====
[[File:Berry Math Formula.png|frame|right|Berry formula]]
The formula that the games use to decide how many fruits a specific Berry tree will bear is to the right of the page. This formula is calculated as follows:
*''a'' is the maximum number of Berries that can appear on the plant
*''b'' is the minimum number of Berries that can appear on the plant
*''c'' is a integer randomly chosen between ''a'' and ''b'', inclusive
*''d'' is the number of growth stages during which the plant was watered

This formula is only used if the player has watered the plant ''at least once'' during its growth. If the plant is left to its own devices, it will ''always'' bear the minimum number of fruit.

====Stages====
After they are planted in soft soil, all Berries have four stages of growth before reaching their final, harvestable stage. Each stage of growth lasts a quarter of the Berry's full growth time. When the player interacts with a Berry plant, a message will display describing the Berry's current stage of growth.

The table below is based on a Lum Berry (planted with no [[Mulch]], for Generation IV).
{| class="roundy" style="border: 3px solid #1E90FF; background: #A6D4FF; margin:auto"
|-
! style="background: #1E90FF; {{roundytl|5px}}" | Tree
! style="background: #1E90FF" | Time
! style="background: #1E90FF" | Generation III message
! style="background: #1E90FF; {{roundytr|5px}}" | Generation IV message
|- style="background:#fff"
! {{Tree|All|Seed}}
| 00:00 - 11:59
| One [[Lum Berry]] was planted here.
| A Lum Berry was planted here.
|- style="background:#fff"
! {{Tree|All|Sprout}}
| 12:00 - 23:59
| Lum has sprouted.
| The Lum Berry has sprouted.
|- style="background:#fff"
! {{Tree|Lum|Taller}}
| 24:00 - 35:59
| This Lum plant is growing taller.
| The Lum Berry plant is growing bigger.
|- style="background:#fff"
! {{Tree|Lum|Bloom}}
| 36:00 - 47:59
| These Lum flowers are blooming {{tt|cutely|if watered in one stage or if not watered at all}}/{{tt|prettily|if watered in two stages}}/{{tt|very beautifully|if watered in all previous stages and the blooming stage}}.
| This Lum Berry plant is in bloom!
|-
! style="background:#fff; {{roundybl|5px}}" | {{Tree|Lum|Berry}}
| style="background:#fff" | 48:00 - 96:00
| style="background:#fff" | There are (number) Lum Berries!
| style="background:#fff; {{roundybr|5px}}" | There are (number) Lum Berries!
|}

===In Generation IV===
[[File:Dryberries.png|thumb|right|The left three plants (Razz, Bluk, and Nanab) have, in order: very dry soil, dry soil, and moist soil. They have been unwatered for 4, 2, and 0 hours]]
The mechanics of Berry growth was expanded in Generation IV, where it is no longer sufficient to water a plant in each stage of growth for some Berries (conversely, for some Berries it is sufficient to water every two stages of growth). This is due to a new moisture mechanic introduced in these games.

Each plant has a moisture rating that ranges from 0 to 100. When a Berry is planted or watered, the moisture rating will be reset to 100. Every hour afterwards, the moisture rating is deducted by a value specific to the Berry that is planted; this value is increased by 50% with the {{DL|Mulch|Growth Mulch}} and decreased by 50% with the {{DL|Mulch|Damp Mulch}}. Should the moisture rating be 0 when this occurs, however, the maximum yield of the plant is decreased by 1 (to a minimum of 2). Players are given a visual indication of the moisture rating of the plant, as the soil will lighten once the moisture rating falls below 50, and will appear to be dry once the moisture rating is 0.

As with Generation III, players have an amount of time equal to the full growth time of the Berry before a fully-grown plant returns to its "sprouting stage". This time is raised by 50% if the player uses {{DL|Mulch|Stable Mulch}}. The use of {{DL|Mulch|Gooey Mulch}} will allow a total of 14 resproutings (for a total of 15 plantings) instead of 9 before the plant is permanently lost.

===In Generation VI===
In [[Generation VI]], some new mechanics were added and some were tweaked.

The primary change is the introduction of new complications: weeds and [[Berry fields#Pokémon|pests]]. Every 2 hours after a Berry was planted, weeds may appear around it. Once a Berry grows past its seedling stage, pests may also appear on the plant every 2 hours (as indicated by the plant shaking). Weeds and pests may appear on the same plant (at the same time, even), but more weeds or pests will never appear until the previous ones are removed.

The more often weeds or pests are removed from a Berry plant, the greater its yield will be, but weeds and pests do not strictly harm a plant. Any uncared-for Berry plant will always produce the same minimum yield (depending on the Mulch used and watering done), whether that plant never got any weeds or pests in the first place - never had a ''chance'' to be cared for - or if it got weeds or pests (or both) that were simply never removed.

The other significant addition is {{DL|Berry fields|mutation}}s. In special cases, planting different types of Berries in adjacent plots may result in a spontaneous mutation, with one Berry on the tree (or trees) being a different variety than was planted. For example, cultivating Oran and Pecha Berries next to each other may yield Qualot Berries in addition to the expected Oran and Pecha harvest. The first time this occurs, a scientist will arrive to document the phenomenon, and will remain on the farm to record any additional mutations the player discovers (when the player speaks to them).

Soil is now either moist or dry, with no point in between. All Berries now dry out in the same time if the same Mulch is used on them. With no Mulch, {{DL|Mulch|Rich Mulch}}, or {{DL|Mulch|Surprise Mulch}}, the drying time is 24 hours, while with {{DL|Mulch|Boost Mulch}} or {{DL|Mulch|Amaze Mulch}} it is 4 hours.

There is also no way to shorten a Berry's growth time now. All [[Mulch]]es either affect yield or the chance of mutation (or both).

The player can estimate a plant's Berry yield as soon as it starts budding, based on the number of buds or blossoms it shows. Depending on the care the plant receives, that number may change. A normal Berry yield will always show an odd number of buds, but if there is a mutation, an extra bud will appear, making the number even.

====Stages====
Berries now have six stages of growth before they reach their final, harvestable stage. Each stage of growth lasts one-sixth of the Berry's total growth time.

The table below is based on an [[Oran Berry]], which grows in 24 hours.
{| class="roundy" style="border: 3px solid #1E90FF; background: #A6D4FF; margin:auto"
|-
! style="background: #1E90FF; {{roundytl|5px}}" | Tree
! style="background: #1E90FF" | Time
! style="background: #1E90FF; {{roundytr|5px}}" | Message
|- style="background:#fff"
!
| 00:00 - 03:59
| This is where you planted the Oran Berry!
|- style="background:#fff"
!
| 04:00 - 07:59
| The Oran is sprouting!
|- style="background:#fff"
!
| 08:00 - 11:59
| The Oran's seedling is growing well!
|- style="background:#fff"
!
| 12:00 - 15:59
| The Oran's trunk is getting bigger!
|- style="background:#fff"
!
| 16:00 - 19:59
| The Oran tree has buds!
|-
|- style="background:#fff"
!
| 20:00 - 23:59
| The Oran tree is in bloom!
|-
! style="background:#fff; {{roundybl|5px}}" |
| style="background:#fff" | 24:00 - ...
| style="background:#fff; {{roundybr|5px}}" | The Oran Berry tree has <X> Berries!
|}

If the Berry tree includes a mutated Berry in its final stage, the message will instead say:
:''"The tree also has a Berry crop caused by a sudden mutation! They are:
:''<Planted> Berries: <X>
:''<Mutation> Berries: <Y>"

If any Berry plant is left untouched for a month after it has fully matured, it will become withered, but examining the plant will reveal a new sprout beneath it.

==In side games==
===In the Pokémon Mystery Dungeon series===
[[File:Oren Berry.png|thumb|right|100px|Oren Berry]]
{{incomplete|section|Explorers & Gates to Infinity Sitrus buy price, locations}}

In the [[Pokémon Mystery Dungeon]] series, Berries fill the same role as regular medicine does in the [[core series|core games]]. Due to this, the Oran and Sitrus Berry behave slightly different.

Berries can be found in dungeons or bought from shops in all games in the series.

{{Item
|name=Cheri Berry
|jp=クラボのみ
|jpt=Kurabo Fruit
|gen=III
|mdex=yes
|bag=MD
|sprite=Cheri Berry
|buyable=yes
|buy=120{{tt|*|Red Rescue Team and Blue Rescue Team}}
|buy2=80{{tt|*|Explorers of Time, Darkness, and Sky}}
|buy3=50{{tt|*|Gates to Infinity}}
|sellable=yes
|sell=20
|sellnotes=Red Rescue Team and Blue Rescue Team
|sell2=8
|sellnotes2=Explorers of Time, Darkness, and Sky
|sell3=5
|sellnotes3=Gates to Infinity
|effect=A food item that heals [[Status ailments in Mystery Dungeon#Major status conditions|Paralysis]] and fills Belly by 5
|descmdrb=A food item that heals the Pokémon from [[Status ailments in Mystery Dungeon#Major status conditions|paralysis]]. It also slightly fills the Pokémon's Belly.
|descmdtds=A food item that heals a [[Status ailments in Mystery Dungeon#Major status conditions|Paralysis]] status condition. It also slightly fills the Pokémon's Belly.
|descmdgti=Eating it heals the [[Status ailments in Mystery Dungeon#Major status conditions|Paralysis]] status condition.
|locmdrb=Various dungeons, [[Pokémon Square]] shop
|locmdtds=Various dungeons
|locmdgti=[[Post Town]] merchants, [[Paradise#Shops 2|Paradise Facilities]], Various dungeons
}}
{{Item
|name=Chesto Berry
|jp=カゴのみ
|jpt=Kago Fruit
|gen=III
|mdex=yes
|bag=MD
|sprite=Chesto Berry
|buyable=yes
|sellable=yes
|sell=15
|sellnotes=Red Rescue Team and Blue Rescue Team
|sell2=3
|sellnotes2=Explorers of Time, Darkness, and Sky
|sell3=5
|sellnotes3=Gates to Infinity
|effect=A food item that wakes up Pokémon and fills Belly by 5. If Pokémon is not sleeping, it will instead give the [[Status ailments in Mystery Dungeon#Sleep-related conditions|Sleepless]] status for 9-10 turns.
|descmdrb=A food item that causes the Pokémon to become [[Status ailments in Mystery Dungeon#Sleep-related conditions|sleepless]]. The Pokémon will not be able to go to sleep. It also slightly fills the Pokémon's Belly.
|descmdtds=A food item that gives [[Status ailments in Mystery Dungeon#Sleep-related conditions|Sleepless]] status to the user, which prevents sleep. It also slightly fills the Pokémon's Belly.
|descmdgti=Eating it gives you the [[Status ailments in Mystery Dungeon#Sleep-related conditions|Sleepless]] status condition. It prevents the Sleep status condition or other sleep-related status condition.
|locmdrb=Various dungeons
|locmdtds=Various dungeons
|locmdgti=[[Post Town]] merchants, [[Paradise#Shops 2|Paradise Facilities]], Various dungeons
}}
{{Item
|name=Oran Berry
|jp=オレンのみ
|jpt=Oran Fruit
|gen=III
|mdex=yes
|bag=MD
|sprite=Oran Berry
|buyable=yes
|buy=50
|buy2=100{{tt|*|Gates to Infinity}}
|sellable=yes
|sell=25
|sellnotes=Red Rescue Team and Blue Rescue Team
|sell2=5
|sellnotes2=Explorers of Time, Darkness, and Sky
|sell3=10
|sellnotes3=Gates to Infinity
|effect=A food item that restored HP by 100 and Belly by 5.
|descmdrb=A food item that restores HP. It also slightly fills the Pokémon's Belly.
|descmdtds=A food item that restores HP. It also fills the Pokémon's Belly slightly.
|descmdgti=Eating it restores HP.
|locmdrb=Various dungeons
|locmdtds=Various dungeons
|locmdgti=[[Post Town]] merchants, [[Paradise#Shops 2|Paradise Facilities]], Various dungeons
}}
{{Item
|name=Oren Berry
|jp=オレソのみ
|jpt={{tt|Oreso Fruit|<nowiki>One character away from "Oran Berry (Oren Berry)", replacing the character for "n" (ン) with the very similar "so" (ソ)</nowiki>}}
|gen=IV
|genex=yes
|mdex=yes
|sprite=Oran Berry
|bag=MD
|buyable=no
|sell=5
|effect=A food item that deals 10 damage and restores 5 [[Belly]]. Look-alike for Oran Berry.
|descmds=A food item that deals damage. It also somewhat fills the Pokémon's [[Belly]]. It is a Lookalike Item for the [[Oran Berry]], so be careful!
|locmds=[[Drenched Bluff]], [[Mt. Bristle]], [[Waterfall Cave]], [[Apple Woods]], [[Steam Cave]], [[Upper Steam Cave]], [[Amp Plains]], [[Far Amp Plains]], [[Crystal Cave]], [[Crystal Crossing]], [[Chasm Cave]], [[Dark Hill]], [[Brine Cave]], [[Lower Brine Cave]], [[Hidden Land]], [[Hidden Highland]], [[Temporal Tower]], [[Temporal Spire]], [[Mystifying Forest]], [[Sky Peak Station Passes|Sky Peak]], [[Blizzard Island]], [[Crevice Cave]], [[Lower Crevice Cave]], [[Surrounded Sea]], [[Miracle Sea]], [[Deep Miracle Sea]], [[Concealed Ruins]], [[Mt. Travail]], [[The Nightmare]], [[Spacial Rift]], [[Deep Spacial Rift]], [[Dark Crater]], [[Deep Dark Crater]], [[Marine Resort]], [[Lake Afar]], [[Happy Outlook]], [[Mt. Mistral]], [[Shimmer Hill]], [[Lost Wilderness]], [[Midnight Forest]], [[Bottomless Sea]], [[Mt. Avalanche]], [[Sky Stairway]], [[Mystery Jungle]], [[Oblivion Forest]], [[Treacherous Waters]], [[Southeastern Islands]], [[Inferno Cave]], [[Zero Isle North]], [[Zero Isle East]], [[Zero Isle West]], [[Zero Isle South]], [[Zero Isle Center]], [[Destiny Tower]]
}}
{{Item
|name=Pecha Berry
|jp=モモンのみ
|jpt=Momon Fruit
|gen=III
|mdex=yes
|bag=MD
|sprite=Pecha Berry III
|sprite2=Pecha Berry
|buyable=yes
|buy=80{{tt|*|Red Rescue Team and Blue Rescue Team}}
|buy2=60{{tt|*|Explorers of Time, Darkness, and Sky}}
|buy3=50{{tt|*|Gates to Infinity}}
|sellable=yes
|sell=5
|sellnotes=Red Rescue Team and Blue Rescue Team
|sell2=6
|sellnotes2=Explorers of Time, Darkness and Sky
|sell3=5
|sellnotes3=Gates to Infinity
|effect=A food item that heals the [[Status ailments in Mystery Dungeon#Major status conditions|poisoned]] and [[Status ailments in Mystery Dungeon#Major status conditions|badly poisoned]] status conditions and fills Belly by 5.
|descmdrb=A food item that heals the Pokémon when [[Status ailments in Mystery Dungeon#Major status conditions|poisoned]] or [[Status ailments in Mystery Dungeon#Major status conditions|badly poisoned]]. It also slightly fills the Pokémon's Belly.
|descmdtds=A food item that heals a [[Status ailments in Mystery Dungeon#Major status conditions|Poisoned]] status condition or a [[Status ailments in Mystery Dungeon#Major status conditions|Badly Poisoned]] status condition. It also slightly fills the Pokémon's Belly.
|descmdtds=Eating it heals the [[Status ailments in Mystery Dungeon#Major status conditions|Poisoned]] and [[Status ailments in Mystery Dungeon#Major status conditions|Badly Poisoned]] status conditions.
|locmdrb=Various dungeons
|locmdtds=Various dungeons
|locmdgti=[[Post Town]] merchants, [[Paradise#Shops 2|Paradise Facilities]], Various dungeons
}}
{{Item
|name=Rawst Berry
|jp=チーゴのみ
|jpt=Chīgo Fruit
|gen=III
|mdex=yes
|bag=MD
|sprite=Rawst Berry III
|sprite2=Rawst Berry
|buyable=yes
|buy=150{{tt|*|Red Rescue Team and Blue Rescue Team}}
|buy2=90{{tt|*|Explorers of Time, Darkness, and Sky}}
|buy3=50{{tt|*|Gates to Infinity}}
|sellable=yes
|sell=20
|sellnotes=Red Rescue Team and Blue Rescue Team
|sell2=9
|sellnotes2=Explorers of Time, Darkness, and Sky
|sell3=5
|sellnotes3=Gates to Infinity
|effect=A food item that heals the [[Status ailments in Mystery Dungeon#Major status conditions|burn]] status condition and fills Belly by 5.
|descmdrb=A food item that heals the Pokémon's [[Status ailments in Mystery Dungeon#Major status conditions|burn]]. It also slightly fills the Pokémon's Belly.
|descmdtds=A food item that heals a [[Status ailments in Mystery Dungeon#Major status conditions|Burn]] status condition. It also slightly fills the Pokémon's Belly.
|descmdgti=Eating it heals the [[Status ailments in Mystery Dungeon#Major status conditions|Burn]] status condition.
|locmdrb=[[Pokémon Square]] shop, Various dungeons
|locmdtds=Various dungeons
|locmdgti=[[Post Town]] merchants, [[Paradise#Shops 2|Paradise Facilities]], Various dungeons
}}
{{Item
|name=Sitrus Berry
|jp=オボンのみ
|jpt=Obon Fruit
|gen=III
|mdex=yes
|bag=MD
|sprite=Sitrus Berry
|buyable=yes
|buy=4000{{tt|*|Red Rescue Team and Blue Rescue Team}}
|buy2=?{{tt|*|Explorers of Time, Darkness, and Sky}}
|buy3=?{{tt|*|Gates to Infinity}}
|sellable=yes
|sell=100
|sellnotes=Red Rescue Team and Blue Rescue Team
|sell2=?
|sellnotes2=Explorers of Time, Darkness, and Sky
|sell3=200
|sellnotes3=Gates to Infinity
|effect=A food item that completely restores HP and fills Belly by 5. If eaten at full HP, maximum HP will raise by 2.
|descmdrb=A food item that restores HP. If the Pokémon has full HP, eating this item will slightly boost its Maximum HP. It also slightly fills the Pokémon's Belly.
|descmdgti=Eating it restores HP. If you already have full HP, it will slightly boost your Maximum HP.
|locmdrb=Various dungeons
|locmdtds=Various dungeons
|locmdgti=Various dungeons
}}

===In the PokéPark series===
[[File:PokePark Berry.png|thumb|A Berry from [[PokéPark Wii: Pikachu's Adventure]].]]
In [[PokéPark Wii: Pikachu's Adventure]], Berries are used as a form of [[currency]] to pay for Attractions or training. One can earn Berries by clearing Skill Games or by earning the Bonus in an Attraction. When found on the field, green Berries are worth 10, red Berries are worth 50, and golden Berries are worth 100. There also exists a Big Berry, which some Pokémon desire to eat. They will become friends with Pikachu if one is carried to them. One Pokémon that eats Big Berries is Munchlax.

Berries return as a form of currency in [[PokéPark 2: Wonders Beyond]], with minor changes. Attractions are now free, but now items can be bought and sold for Berries, and other Pokémon will give the player Berries upon befriending, often as a token for beating them in certain challenges. Pokémon can also be re-challenged after befriending them, and they will continue to give the player Berries provided the player continues to win. On the field, Green Berries are worth 1, Red Berries are worth 30, and Gold Berries are worth 100. Big Berries are replaced by [[Items in PokéPark 2#Stinkberry|Stinkberries]], which displease most Pokémon (including the one carrying it), but Munchlax loves them.

===In Pokémon Battrio===
{{main|Special Abilities (Battrio)#Berries|Special Abilities (Battrio) → Berries}}

==In the TCG==
Berries were introduced in the {{pkmn|Trading Card Game}} in the {{TCG|Neo Genesis}} expansion, released shortly after {{game|Gold and Silver|s}} themselves. All of them are Pokémon Tools, a special subclass of {{TCG|Trainer card}} that may be attached to a Pokémon in play, much in the same way that items can be held by Pokémon in the games. Most of the TCG Berries are in fact Berries from the games, however, several of them are unique to the TCG.

There are also Basic Pokémon cards that have Berries as held items, which were introduced in the {{TCG|Mysterious Treasures}} expansion. These held items work in the same fashion as Poké-Bodies, in that the effect the item provides is active whenever the Pokémon is in play.

{{cardlist/header|Berry cards|Trainer|char=yes}}
{{cardlist/entry|cardname={{TCG ID|Neo Genesis|Berry|99}}|type=Trainer|type2=Pokémon Tool|enset=Neo Genesis|enrarity=Common|ennum=99/111|jpsetlink=Neo Genesis|jpset=Gold, Silver, to a New World...|jprarity=Common|jpset2=Unnumbered Promotional cards|jpsetlink3=Intro Pack Neo|jpse3=Chikorita Side Deck|jpsetlink4=Intro Pack Neo|jpse4=Totodile Side Deck}}
{{cardlist/entry|cardname={{TCG ID|Neo Genesis|Gold Berry|93}}|type=Trainer|type2=Pokémon Tool|enset=Neo Genesis|enrarity=Uncommon|ennum=93/111|jpsetlink=Neo Genesis|jpset=Gold, Silver, to a New World...|jprarity=Uncommon}}
{{cardlist/entry|cardname={{TCG ID|Neo Genesis|Miracle Berry|94}}|type=Trainer|type2=Pokémon Tool|enset=Neo Genesis|enrarity=Uncommon|ennum=94/111|jpsetlink=Neo Genesis|jpset=Gold, Silver, to a New World...|jprarity=Uncommon}}
{{cardlist/entry|cardname={{TCG ID|Neo Revelation|Balloon Berry|60}}|type=Trainer|type2=Pokémon Tool|enset=Neo Revelation|enrarity=Uncommon|ennum=60/64|jpsetlink=Neo Revelation|jpset=Awakening Legends|jprarity=Uncommon|enset2=EX Dragon|enrarity2=Uncommon|ennum2=82/97|jpsetlink2=EX Dragon|jpset2=Rulers of the Heavens|jprarity2=Uncommon|jpnum2=053/054|jpset3=Flygon Constructed Starter Deck|jpnum3=018/019|jpset4=Salamence Constructed Starter Deck|jpnum4=018/019|enset5=EX Deoxys|enrarity5=Uncommon|ennum5=84/107|jpset5=Rayquaza Constructed Starter Deck|jpnum5=015/015}}
{{cardlist/entry|cardname={{TCG ID|Aquapolis|Healing Berry|125}}|type=Trainer|type2=Pokémon Tool|enset=Aquapolis|enrarity=Uncommon|ennum=125/147|jpsetlink=Aquapolis|jpset=Wind from the Sea|jprarity=Uncommon|jpnum=081/087}}
{{cardlist/entry|cardname={{TCG ID|Aquapolis|Memory Berry|128}}|type=Trainer|type2=Pokémon Tool|enset=Aquapolis|enrarity=Uncommon|ennum=128/147|jpsetlink=Aquapolis|jpset=Wind from the Sea|jprarity=Uncommon|jpnum=080/087|enset2=EX Crystal Guardians|enrarity2=Uncommon|ennum2=80/100|jpsetlink2=EX Crystal Guardians|jpset2=Miracle Crystal|jprarity2=Uncommon|jpnum2=069/075|enset3=Platinum|enrarity3=Uncommon|ennum3=110/127|jpsetlink3=Platinum|jpset3=Galactic's Conquest|jprarity3=Uncommon|jpnum3=087/096}}
{{cardlist/entry|cardname={{TCG ID|EX Ruby & Sapphire|Lum Berry|84}}|type=Trainer|type2=Pokémon Tool|enset=EX Ruby & Sapphire|enrarity=Uncommon|ennum=84/109|jpset=Treecko Constructed Starter Deck|jpnum=019/019|jpset2=Torchic Constructed Starter Deck|jpnum2=019/019|jpset3=Mudkip Constructed Starter Deck|jpnum3=019/019|enset4=EX Emerald|enrarity4=Uncommon|ennum4=78/106}}
{{cardlist/entry|cardname={{TCG ID|EX Ruby & Sapphire|Oran Berry|85}}|type=Trainer|type2=Pokémon Tool|enset=EX Ruby & Sapphire|enrarity=Uncommon|ennum=85/109|jpsetlink=EX Ruby & Sapphire|jpset=Expansion Pack|jpnum=055/055|jpset2=ADV-P Promotional cards|jpnum2=043/ADV-P|enset3=EX Emerald|enrarity3=Uncommon|ennum3=80/106|jpsetlink3=Master Kit|jpset3=Side Deck|jpnum3=008/012}}
{{cardlist/entry|cardname={{TCG ID|EX Unseen Forces|Fluffy Berry|85}}|type=Trainer|type2=Pokémon Tool|enset=EX Unseen Forces|enrarity=Uncommon|ennum=85/115|jpsetlink=EX Unseen Forces|jpset=Golden Sky, Silvery Ocean|jprarity=Uncommon|jpnum=103/106|jpset2=Meganium Constructed Starter Deck|jpnum2=015/016|jpset3=Typhlosion Constructed Starter Deck|jpnum3=015/016|jpset4=Feraligatr Constructed Starter Deck|jpnum4=015/016}}
{{cardlist/entry|cardname={{TCG ID|EX Unseen Forces|Sitrus Berry|91}}|type=Trainer|type2=Pokémon Tool|enset=EX Unseen Forces|enrarity=Uncommon|ennum=91/115|jpsetlink=EX Unseen Forces|jpset=Golden Sky, Silvery Ocean|jprarity=Uncommon|jpnum=100/106}}
{{cardlist/div|Pokémon cards with Berries as held items|Trainer}}
{{cardlist/entry|cardname={{TCG ID|Mysterious Treasures|Bidoof|73}}{{tt|*|Wacan Berry}}|type=Colorless|enset=Mysterious Treasures|enrarity=Common|ennum=73/123|jpsetlink=Mysterious Treasures|jpset=Secret of the Lakes|jprarity=Common}}
{{cardlist/entry|cardname={{TCG ID|Mysterious Treasures|Buizel|75}}{{tt|*|Chesto Berry}}|type=Water|enset=Mysterious Treasures|enrarity=Common|ennum=75/123|jpsetlink=Mysterious Treasures|jpset=Secret of the Lakes|jprarity=Common}}
{{cardlist/entry|cardname={{TCG ID|Mysterious Treasures|Shinx|98}}{{tt|*|Rawst Berry}}|type=Lightning|enset=Mysterious Treasures|enrarity=Common|ennum=98/123|jpsetlink=Mysterious Treasures|jpset=Secret of the Lakes|jprarity=Common}}
{{cardlist/entry|cardname={{TCG ID|POP Series 6|Gible|7}}{{tt|*|Oran Berry}}|type=Colorless|enset=POP Series 6|enrarity=Uncommon|ennum=7/17|jpset=DP-P Promotional cards|jpnum=026/DP-P}}
{{cardlist/entry|cardname={{TCG ID|POP Series 6|Pikachu|9}}{{tt|*|Oran Berry}}|type=Lightning|enset=POP Series 6|enrarity=Uncommon|ennum=9/17|jpset=DP-P Promotional cards|jpnum=025/DP-P}}
{{cardlist/entry|cardname={{TCG ID|Majestic Dawn|Chimchar|57}}{{tt|*|Cheri Berry}}|type=Fire|enset=Majestic Dawn|enrarity=Common|ennum=57/100|jpset=PPP Promotional cards|jpnum=002/PPP|jpsetlink2=Collection Packs|jpset2=Shaymin LV.X Collection Pack|jpnum2=004/012}}
{{cardlist/entry|cardname={{TCG ID|Majestic Dawn|Piplup|72}}{{tt|*|Pecha Berry}}|type=Water|enset=Majestic Dawn|enrarity=Common|ennum=72/100|jpset=PPP Promotional cards|jpnum=003/PPP|jpsetlink2=Collection Packs|jpset2=Mewtwo LV.X Collection Pack|jpnum2=002/012}}
{{cardlist/entry|cardname={{TCG ID|Majestic Dawn|Turtwig|78}}{{tt|*|Persim Berry}}|type=Grass|enset=Majestic Dawn|enrarity=Common|ennum=78/100|jpset=PPP Promotional cards|jpnum=001/PPP|jpsetlink2=Collection Packs|jpset2=Regigigas LV.X Collection Pack|jpnum2=001/012}}
{{cardlist/entry|cardname={{TCG ID|DP Promo|Darkrai|24}}{{tt|*|Enigma Berry}}|type=Darkness|enset=DP Black Star Promos|ennum=DP24|jpset=DP-P Promotional cards|jpnum=046/DP-P}}
{{cardlist/footer|Trainer}}

==In the anime==
[[File:Pinkan Berry.png|thumb|Pinkan Berries]]
In the anime, while several ordinary fruits from the real world have and continue to be featured, Berries have appeared on occasion as well, suggesting that the Berries are not the only fruit in the Pokémon world. Additionally, the Berries that have made an appearance in the games are not the only Berries featured. [[Pinkan Berry|Pinkan Berries]] appeared, central to the plot of ''[[EP088|In the Pink]]'', where they had the amazing property of changing a Pokémon's coloration completely to pink, and due to the rarity of strangely-colored Pokémon, only grew on an isolated island in the [[Orange Archipelago]] that was kept secret to prevent poachers from stealing Pokémon who lived there. A {{p|Snover}} was also shown to grow Berries on its body in ''[[DP121|The Lonely Snover!]]'', though they had no strange effects when consumed by humans or Pokémon. [[Rinka Berry|Rinka Berries]] were central to the plot in the [[Pikachu shorts|Pikachu short]] [[PK23]]. These Berries were said to clear one's throat and restore the consumer's voice.

==See also==
* [[List of Berries by growth time]]
* [[List of Berries by flavor]]
* {{m|Natural Gift}}
* [[Apricorn]]
{{-}}
{{items}}
{{Held}}
{{-}}
{{DoubleProjectTag|BerryDex|ItemDex|each Berry and on all [[item]]s in the Pokémon series.}}

[[Category:Pokémon world]]
[[Category:Items]]
[[Category:Berries|*]]
[[Category:Food]]

[[de:Beeren]]
[[es:Bayas]]
[[fr:Liste des baies]]
[[it:Bacche]]
[[ja:きのみ]]
[[pl:Jagoda]]
[[pt:Berry]]
[[zh:树果]]

Talk:Charizard (Pokémon)

2014-05-17T11:09:35Z

Pokepro97: /* Contradiction in Type Effectiveness */

{{Rotating art}}
==Um, o.O==
"The most spectacular behavior of the Charizard occurs during the breeding season. In the wild, a male in control of a territory will send blasts of fire-breath into the sky. This is a signal to females and rivals alike that the resident male is fit, strong, and confident enough to use his fire for a mere display. When a female accepts the male, the two fly high into the sky, lock talons and plummet into a dizzying dive. They break apart only a few meters from the ground, combining the passion of mating with the thrill of freefall. After the female lays her eggs, the two parents take turns guarding them and keeping them warm with their flame."

Is it just me, or does that passage sound suspiciously like a segment from that Animal Planet special about dragons? Anyone know the one I'm talking about? -- [[User:Umbee|Umbee]] 18:23, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

:Lol. It DOES sound like a show about dragons. XD; [[User:TinaTheKirlia|TinaTheKirlia]] [[User talk:TinaTheKirlia|♪]][[User:TinaTheKirlia/Sandbox|☆]] 18:25, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

So Charizard is a Dragon. [[User:Cerberus|Cerberus]] 09:27, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
:Last time I checked, Charizard was never featured on Animal Planet. -- [[User:Umbee|Umbee]] 12:26, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
::Yeah, I honestly think it should be removed then. This is an encyclopedia for serious Pokémon fans, right? So we should only keep truth. I honestly think that info that can't be reached on the official Pokémon cards, the anime, the movies, or the games should be removed, unless sourced. Hmm, come to think of it, is it a good idea to make a template similar to ''[citation needed]'' tag on Wikipedia? [[User:TheBlazikenMaster|TheBlazikenMaster]] 21:09, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
:::I was going to make one myself if nobody else did. XD -- [[User:Umbee|Umbee]] 21:56, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
::::Nevermind, I realized we already have one. <nowiki>{{fact}}</nowiki> is there. [[User:TheBlazikenMaster|TheBlazikenMaster]] 13:08, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

|; I saw a show on Dragon's once, and i'll pretty sure it said exactly that. It was called "The Last Dragon" [[User:Takoto|Takoto タコト]]| サソデイ = 愛 15:57, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, that sounds exactly like what this one kind of seabird does. Excluding the firebreath, of course.--[[User:Shard1697|Shard1697]] 22:33, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
:Bald Eagles do everything listed with the exception of, um...breathing fire. And I'm pretty sure all this stuff was pulled from that Discovery Channel dragon special anyway.--[[User:Urutapu|Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？]] ([[User talk:Urutapu|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Urutapu|contribs]]) 22:47, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

But pokémon don't lay eggs, do they?Glitchym1[[User:Glitchym1|Mglitch]] 19:37, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

== Jersey Devil ==

Really??? The page on Wikipedia shows the Jersey Devil looking like a skinny horse with bat-like wings. Charizard doesn't really reflect this... ~[[User:SaturnYoshi|'''$aturn''']][[User:SaturnYoshi|'''¥oshi''']] [[User talk:SaturnYoshi|THE VOICES]] 02:42, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

WHAT????Glitchym1[[User:Glitchym1|Mglitch]] 19:39, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

== Wonderin' ==

I'm thinking of writing that Charizard is a very known trademark....... I mean, come on, right? You guys would know that it IS a very known Pokémon trademark. So, well, I wrote it on the top part, where it says it's cover appearances........... and it got erased......... Do you guys think it should be written in trivia? I'm just WONDERIN'............. I think I should get you guys' appinions' on this........ [[User:Dragonbeastx|Dragonbeastx]] 03:51, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
:Well, I don't see the point of pointing it out... Articles are written for info on a determined Pokémon species, not its trademarks and stuff like that. '''[[User:Hfc2x|hfc]][[User talk:Hfc2x|2X]]''' 04:22, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Okay...Still Charizard.......He, he.......[[User:Dragonbeastx|Dragonbeastx]] 17:12, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

== Trapinch ==

How is it fail? I did just say that not all Pokemon are introduced in the next generation following when they were designed... The Gastrodons are evidence of that, having been designed in third generation and introduced in fourth. The same is true for Trapinch, which was originally intended to be the pre-evolution of Charizard, but was discarded and reintroduced later on as a Bug type. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 06:01, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
:Umm... Proof??? --[[Tracey Sketchit|'''ケンジ''']][[User talk:Kenji-girl|'''の''']][[User:Kenji-girl|'''ガール''']] 06:08, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

:The thing is, they ''said so'' in an interview that Shellos and Gastrodon were initially to be in Gen III. Nothing at all indicates Trapinch is related in any way to Charizard, especially considering the fact that, as the starters, it's highly likely they were among the first evolutionary lines finalized. Pokémon Red and Green came out in 1996, and were being worked on for six whole years beforehand. Ruby and Sapphire came out in 2003. Sure, there's possibility that maybe Trapinch was intended for Gen I, but there's possibility Ambipom was too. There's possibility that Mewthree really exists, and that Missingno. is really a SUPER HYPER LEGENDARYYYYYY. Except not. We didn't even acknowledge Giratina as part of the dragon trio until shortly before Platinum.
:Now, where's this concept art with Trapinch and Charizard together? Hm? Any proof at all? Because going by the Red and Green sprites is just... no.
:And by the way, Trapinch is a {{type|Ground}}. It doesn't become Ground/Bug until it evolves. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 06:10, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
::It's Ground/Dragon actually. It never was a Bug-type. --[[Tracey Sketchit|'''ケンジ''']][[User talk:Kenji-girl|'''の''']][[User:Kenji-girl|'''ガール''']] 06:13, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
:::I never said that there was concept art of them together, just concept art that highly suggests a relationship between the two... I also never said I was going by sprites, so I don't know where you got that from, and whether or not it's a Bug type in its first stage or second is semantics and shouldn't be brought up at all. We're not here to argue, but to discuss. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 06:15, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
::::Can we see it, please? At the moment this sounds kinda.... suspect. —'''darklord[[User talk:The dark lord trombonator|trom]]''' 06:16, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Sh Kenji I knew that... >>
:::Anyway, look at {{wp|File:Euroleon fg02.jpg|this}} and {{wp|File:Distoleon tetragrammicus01.jpg|this}}. That's the antlion in its larval stage and its adult stage. First looks (and acts) like Trapinch, second is like Flygon (even called a "sand dragon" by some because it resembles a dragonfly). '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 06:19, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

== Preliminary Shot ==

I remember my friend had firered, and he had a charizard and i seem to remember it would attack the oponent upon sending it out, as ash's charizard would. is this true or am i remembering wrong?--[[User:Ben7229|Ben7229]] 16:50, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
:Um... no. There is probably something wrong with the game. [[User:CuboneKing|Cu]][[User talk:CuboneKing|bo]][[Special:Contributions/CuboneKing|ne]][[Cubone (Pokémon)|King]] 16:53, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
::The other possibility is that your friend may have hacked or something. I highly doubt that Firered's coding and programming would so much as ''allow'' that to happen in the first place. [[User:Superbreeder|Super]][[User talk:Superbreeder|breeder]] 20:32, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

== Charizard Picture ==

Hey, is it just me or did the "artwork from FR/LG" picture change? It seems a lot more detailed than before. ----GEN1[[User:Gen1king|KING]] ''([[User talk:TALK]])'' 06:26, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
:[http://archives.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:006Charizard.png Yes]. —'''darklord[[User talk:The dark lord trombonator|trom]]''' 03:46, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
::And yet this one is the fanart. Look it up on TPC's and TPCi's online Dexes and you'll see that the previous artwork was in fact the official one. [[User:Pokemon lover|ポケモン]][[User talk:Pokemon lover|あいこうか]] 18:40, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
:::Scratch what I said. I spoke from ignorance. The pics of the artwork are being converted, not altered, so there is no problem with the changes. ;-) [[User:Pokemon lover|ポケモン]][[User talk:Pokemon lover|あいこうか]] 10:13, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

== My fav Pokémon ==
Charizard is my favorite Pokémon. If Charizard were real, then it would be cool to fly on one. But hey. Will they change the sprite on Black and White? I like this icon! Plz Black and White! Don't delete the amazing Charizard! I hope it's still here in Isshu!
([[User:Charchargrl123|Charchargrl123]] 22:06, 14 July 2010 (UTC))
:This is more suitable for your user page. [[User:Turtwig A|Turtwig's]] [[Turtwig (Pokémon)|A-B-Cs]] ([[User talk:Turtwig A|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Turtwig A|contribs]]) 22:10, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

==HeartGold/SoulSilver Sprites==
We have the moving sprites for these images, is there a reason they are not being used? If there is no reason, can someone please put them in place of the static ones. [[User:CoolDudeAl|CoolDudeAl]]
:Because any moving sprites shown on trailers are subject to change. They will only be added once the game is released and someone rips them from the game. [[User:Malake256|Malake256]] 22:15, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
:Actually, HeartGold and SoulSilver have been released for four months now. [[User:Turtwig A|Turtwig's]] [[Turtwig (Pokémon)|A-B-Cs]] ([[User talk:Turtwig A|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Turtwig A|contribs]]) 22:17, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

== Shinyzard ==

Is it common among shiny Pokémon not to retain the previous shiny color upon evolving while non-shiny Pokémon do? Or is Charizard an exception? Should it be mentioned in trivia?--[[User:Kirochi|'''K'''IROCHI''')''']] ([[User talk:Kirochi|talk]]) 14:25, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
:{{p|Starmie|It's}} {{p|Ninetales|extremely}} {{p|Gyarados|common}}. The entire Flygon line {{p|Trapinch|is a}} {{p|Vibrava|freaking}} {{p|Flygon|rainbow}} in their shiny forms. [[Typhlosion|★]][[User:Jo The Marten|Jo the Marten]][[Flygon|★]] [[User_talk:Jo The Marten|ಠ_ಠ]] 15:41, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
::Okay, thanks, I get it, trying to guess colors from younger forms is irrelevant :-P--[[User:Kirochi|'''K'''IROCHI''')''']] ([[User talk:Kirochi|talk]]) 20:23, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
:::He said "while non-shiny Pokémon do." Staryu and Starmie aren't normally the same color, nor are Vulpix and Ninetales, Magikarp and Gyarados, or any two members of the Trapinch line. Off the top of my head I can think of a couple cases like Charizard's here... Poliwrath... [[User:BP|BP]] 07:22, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
::::Oh, now that's a more accurate answer, thanks! This is the confirmation I needed.--[[User:Kirochi|'''K'''IROCHI''')''']] ([[User talk:Kirochi|talk]]) 11:20, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

== Brawl Info ==

In the section about Charizard's other appearances, it says that it's up-special move is [[Fly]]. It looks a lot more like {{m|Flare Blitz}} to me. anyone up for changing this?
- ''unsigned comment from {{u|Fimbulwinter2012}} ([[User talk:Fimbulwinter2012|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fimbulwinter2012|contribs]]) ''
:I'm pretty sure the attack names for Brawl characters are official.--[[User:Cold|Cold]] ([[User talk:Cold|talk]]) 22:03, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
==IGN's contest thing==
Should we add to the trivia that Charizard won the contest out of all the Pokemon? I think its a pretty big deal.--[[User:Baroque|Baroque]] 12:47, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
:That could be a trivia mention, but maybe not, since ign isnt even a fansite. {{unsigned|Leafgreener in 2010}}
::This was considered before, but it was decided that fan contests are not notable. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 07:12, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

== Charla ==

Can someone do in major appearances or minor, something like Liza's charizard or Charla as a main article, there's already one. And Charla is nowhere mentioned on the in the anime section.[[User:Emeraldben|Emeraldben]] 12:34, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

== Question about trivia ==

"Charizard shares its exact base stats with {{p|Typhlosion}}. They are one of several Pokémon that have same of base stats which do not have same in each stat, such as common [[Legendary Pokémon]] with straight-100 base stats. One example is between {{p|Tornadus}} and {{p|Thundurus}}." and "Charizard shares the same [[species]] name as {{p|Charmeleon}}, {{p|Flareon}}, {{p|Moltres}}, and {{p|Infernape}}. They are all known as Flame Pokémon." I was wondering if these two pieces of trivia were notable, since they both refer to fairly sizable number of Pokémon. Thanks! [[User:Crystal Talian|Crystal]] [[User talk:Crystal Talian|Talian]] 04:29, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

==TCG Dark Charizard==

Isn't there a Dark Charizard TCG card somewhere that depicts a shiny Charizard, and if so, is this a good trivia point? [[User:Aggron989|Aggron989]] ([[User talk:Aggron989|talk]]) 17:09, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
:Wait... I might be thinking about Charizard ☆ δ. Never mind. [[User:Aggron989|Aggron989]] ([[User talk:Aggron989|talk]]) 17:17, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

==Bandai D-Arts==
Charizard and [[Mewtwo]] are both the first Pokémon to début in the Bandai D-Arts range of high-quality merchandise. Trivia-worthy? [[User:Me, Hurray!|Me, Hurray!]] ([[User talk:Me, Hurray!|talk]]) 20:19, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

== Gen IV sprites ==

Is there a difference between the Gen IV general (presumably D/P/Pt) sprites and those of HG/SS? I couldn't see one. --[[User:WyndFox|Wynd]] [[User talk:WyndFox|Fox]] 03:43, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
:I don't know if there's a difference in-game, but this page is using the same file twice, which is why you couldn't see one. [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 04:00, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
::The Archives imply that they use the same sprites, so I removed the redundancy. --[[User:WyndFox|Wynd]] [[User talk:WyndFox|Fox]] 04:14, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

== No Mention of Red's Charizard? ==

*Judging by the section under {{p|Mewtwo}}'s page, there will be more mentions from [[Pokémon Origins]] on Pokémon's pages now. Just not sure if I should just go and add stuff on the pages without any confirmation first. ----[[User:NateVirus|NateVirus]]''([[User talk:NateVirus|Talk]]''|''[[Special:Contributions/NateVirus|Contributions]]'') 21:21, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

== Trivia ==

Someone please add that due to its Type change as Mega Charizard X Charizard becomes the first starter Pokemon to be a Dragon-type as well. [[User:Hitmonchan107|Hitmonchan107]] ([[User talk:Hitmonchan107|talk]]) 22:18, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
:How is that trivia? If we're using that kind of trivia, Venusaur is the first starter to be grass and poison, Charizard is the first starter to be fire and flying, Blastoise is the first starter to be water, Blaziken is the first starter to be Fighting, Swampert is the first starter to be Ground... well, you get my point. It's not trivia-worthy. ☆[[User:Solar Dragon|The]] [[User talk:Solar Dragon|Solar]] [[Special:Contributions/Solar Dragon|Dragon]]☆ 22:23, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

==Minor appearances==
The first minor appearance says "however, it was a fake mechanical robot." I think "fake, mechanical Charizard," or something like that, reads and sounds much better. However, there's already been a fair bit of editing regarding this, so I'd like to bring it up for discussion before making further changes. --[[User:WyndFox|Wynd]] [[User talk:WyndFox|Fox]] 04:42, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
: I'd say "it was actually a robot" is clear and simple. It can't be a fake robot because it actually was one, nor can it be a mechanical Charizard, and "mechanical robot" is redundant. --[[User:IWannaBeTheVeryBest|The]]Very[[User talk:IWannaBeTheVeryBest|Best]] 05:58, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
::I agree with you, actually. That seems best. --[[User:WyndFox|Wynd]] [[User talk:WyndFox|Fox]] 22:58, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

== Contradiction in Type Effectiveness ==

From type effectiveness:

"
If Gravity is in effect, this Pokémon is given an Iron Ball (in Generation IV) or a Ring Target, or it is affected by Smack Down or Ingrain, the effectiveness of Ground-type moves is 2×.

In Generation V, if this Pokémon is given an Iron Ball, the effectiveness of Ground-type moves is 1×.
.
"

In gen 5, would a charizard holding an iron ball hit by a ground attack take 2x damage (2x from fire, 1x from removed flying) or 1x damage (2x from fire, 1/2x from removed flying) [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 11:09, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Edit: Added signature. [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 11:09, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Charizard (Pokémon)

2014-05-17T11:08:48Z

Pokepro97: /* Contradiction in Type Effectiveness */ new section

Grotle (Pokémon)

2014-04-25T14:44:06Z

Pokepro97: /* Type effectiveness */

{{PokémonPrevNextHead | species=Grotle | type=grass | prevnum=387 | nextnum=389 | prev=Turtwig | next=Torterra }}
{{Pokémon Infobox |
name=Grotle |
jname=ハヤシガメ |
tmname=Hayashigame |
ndex=388 |
sdex=002 |
abrow=053 |
obrow=140 |
opbrow=040 |
typebox=1 |
type1=Grass |
species=Grove |
height-ftin=3'07" |
height-m=1.1 |
weight-lbs=213.8 |
weight-kg=97.0 |
abilityn=d |
ability1=Overgrow |
abilityd=Shell Armor |
egggroupn=2 |
egggroup1=Monster |
egggroup2=Grass |
eggcycles=21 |
evtotal=2 |
evat=1 |
evde=1 |
expyield=142 |
oldexp=141 |
lv100exp=1,059,860 |
gendercode=31 |
color=Green |
catchrate=45 |
body=08 |
pokefordex=grotle |
generation=4 |
friendship=70 |
}}
'''Grotle''' ([[List of Japanese Pokémon names|Japanese]]: '''ハヤシガメ''' ''Hayashigame'') is a {{type|Grass}} Pokémon.

It [[Evolution|evolves]] from {{p|Turtwig}} starting at [[level]] 18 and evolves into {{p|Torterra}} starting at level 32.

==Biology==
[[File:Grotle acorn.png|Grotle with acorns|220px|thumb|left]]
Grotle is a quadruped Pokémon with light green skin and a large shell covering its back. The shell is composed of hardened soil and conforms to the shape of Grotle's body, extending from its forehead to the tip of its short tail. The shell appears sectioned and is yellow with three long, brown ridges atop it. There are two bush-like trees growing around the outermost ridges. Grotle's lower jaw is yellow and has triangular extensions on the cheeks, while its upper jaw has a hooked tip. Its feet are yellow and have three claws each.

Grotle has the ability to sense where pure water wells up, and will carry other Pokémon on its back to these sources. Grotle lives in forests, but leaves during the day to allow more sunlight on its trees. Berries grow on the trees, attracting some species of Pokémon. In the anime, Grotle is seen to produce acorn-like nuts instead.

==In the anime==
[[File:Ash Grotle.png|thumb|left|230px|Grotle in the anime]]
===Major appearances===
====[[Ash's Grotle]]====
{{Ash}}'s Turtwig evolved into Grotle in ''[[DP100|Aiding the Enemy!]]''. This marked Grotle's debut appearance in the anime. In ''[[DP166|The Fleeing Tower of Sunyshore!]]'', Grotle evolved into {{p|Torterra}}.

===Minor appearances===
A Grotle appeared in the opening scenes of ''[[M13|Zoroark: Master of Illusions]]''.

Multiple Grotle appeared in [[Alexa]]'s magazine in ''[[BW134|The Journalist from Another Region!]].''
{{-}}

===Pokédex entries===
{{Animedexheader|Sinnoh}}
{{Animedexbody|DP100|Grotle|Ash's Pokédex|Grotle, the Grove Pokémon and the evolved form of {{p|Turtwig}}. Grotle lives near water in forests, and leaves the forest during the {{DL|Time|day}} to {{m|Synthesis|allow light to shine}} on the tree on its shell.}}
{{Animedexfooter/Pokémon|''Diamond & Pearl''|Sinnoh}}

==In the manga==
[[File:Tru Grotle.png|thumb|125px|Grotle in Pokémon Adventures]]
===In the Pokémon Adventures manga===
{{main|Tru}}
{{adv|Diamond}} had a Grotle named Tru, which is his {{p|Turtwig}}'s evolved form. It became stronger and (slightly) faster in this new form, but was scarcely used for battles, as it would have been ineffective against [[Gardenia]]'s {{type|Grass}} Pokémon, though it still helped {{adv|Platinum}} train for future Gym battles. Soon afterwards, the Grotle became a {{p|Torterra}} alongside [[Chimler]] in [[Veilstone City]] fighting a legion of {{tc|Galactic Grunt}}s, and its power and endurance grew tremendously.

===In the Pokémon Diamond and Pearl Adventure! manga===
{{OBP|Jun|DPA}}'s Turtwig evolved into a Grotle off-screen and later into Torterra.

==In the TCG==
{{main|Grotle (TCG)}}

==Game data==
===Pokédex entries===
{{Dex
|gen=4
|type=grass
|diamonddex=It lives along water in forests. In the daytime, it leaves the forest to sunbathe its treed shell.
|pearldex=The shell is hardened soil. Some Pokémon come to peck the berries growing on the trees on its back.
|platinumdex=It knows where pure water wells up. It carries fellow Pokémon there on its back.
|hgssdex=A Grotle that lives in the forest is said to have its own secret springwater.
|bwdex=It knows where pure water wells up. It carries fellow Pokémon there on its back.
|b2w2dex=It knows where pure water wells up. It carries fellow Pokémon there on its back.
|xdex=It lives along water in forests. In the daytime, it leaves the forest to sunbathe its treed shell.
|ydex=It knows where pure water wells up. It carries fellow Pokémon there on its back.
}}

===Game locations===
{{Availability|
type=grass |
gen=4 |
dparea=[[Evolution|Evolve]] {{p|Turtwig}} |
ptarea=[[Evolution|Evolve]] {{p|Turtwig}} |
hgssex=pal|
hgssarea=[[Trade]] |
gen5ex=none |
bwarea=[[Evolution|Evolve]] [[List of Pokémon Global Link promotions/Pokémon#Turtwig|Global Link event]] {{p|Turtwig}} |
b2w2ex=none |
b2w2area=[[Evolution|Evolve]] [[List of Pokémon Global Link promotions/Pokémon#Turtwig|Global Link event]] {{p|Turtwig}} |
gen6ex=none |
xyarea=[[Poké Transporter]] |
}}

====In side games====
{{SidegameAvail
|type=Grass
|ranger2=[[Vien Forest]]
|md2=[[Starter Pokémon]] [[Mystifying Forest]] (B1-B13) [[Mystery Jungle]] (B1-B29)
|scramble=[[Silent Forest]] Advanced Mode C & A
|ranger3=[[Canal Ruins]]
|rumble2=Desert: [[Sunny Seashore]]
}}

===Stats===
====Base stats====
{{BaseStats|
type=grass |
HP= 75 |
Attack= 89 |
Defense=85 |
SpAtk= 55 |
SpDef= 65 |
Speed= 36 }}

====Pokéathlon stats====
{{Pokéthlon
|type=Grass
|Speed=2
|SpeedMax=3
|Power=4
|PowerMax=4
|Technique=3
|TechniqueMax=3
|Stamina=4
|StaminaMax=5
|Jump=2
|JumpMax=3
}}

===Type effectiveness===
{{TypeEffectiveness|
type1=grass|
Normal= 100 |
Fighting=100 |
Flying= 200 |
Poison= 200 |
Ground= 50 |
Rock= 100 |
Bug= 200 |
Ghost= 100 |
Steel= 100 |

Fire= 200 |
Water= 50 |
Grass= 50 |
Electric= 50 |
Psychic= 100 |
Ice= 200 |
Dragon= 100 |
Dark= 100 |
Fairy= 100}}

===Learnset===
====By [[Level|leveling up]]====
{{learnlist/levelh|Grotle|Grass|Grass|5|4}}
{{learnlist/level5|Start|Tackle|Normal|Physical|50|100|35}}
{{learnlist/level5|Start|Withdraw|Water|Status|—|—|40}}
{{learnlist/level5|5|Withdraw|Water|Status|—|—|40}}
{{learnlist/level5|9|Absorb|Grass|Special|20|100|25||'''}}
{{learnlist/level5|13|Razor Leaf|Grass|Physical|55|95|25||'''}}
{{learnlist/level5|17|Curse|Ghost|Status|—|—|10}}
{{learnlist/level5|22|Bite|Dark|Physical|60|100|25}}
{{learnlist/level5|27|Mega Drain|Grass|Special|40|100|15||'''}}
{{learnlist/level5|32|Leech Seed|Grass|Status|—|90|10}}
{{learnlist/level5|37|Synthesis|Grass|Status|—|—|5}}
{{learnlist/level5|42|Crunch|Dark|Physical|80|100|15}}
{{learnlist/level5|47|Giga Drain|Grass|Special|75|100|10||'''}}
{{learnlist/level5|52|Leaf Storm|Grass|Special|140|90|5||'''}}
{{learnlist/levelf|Grotle|Grass|Grass|5|4}}

====By [[TM]]/[[HM]]====
{{learnlist/tmh|Grotle|Grass|Grass|5|4}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM06|Toxic|Poison|Status|—|90|10}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM10|Hidden Power|Normal|Special|—|100|15}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM11|Sunny Day|Fire|Status|—|—|5}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM16|Light Screen|Psychic|Status|—|—|30}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM17|Protect|Normal|Status|—|—|10}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM20|Safeguard|Normal|Status|—|—|25}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM21|Frustration|Normal|Physical|—|100|20}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM22|SolarBeam|Grass|Special|120|100|10||'''}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM27|Return|Normal|Physical|—|100|20}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM32|Double Team|Normal|Status|—|—|15}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM33|Reflect|Psychic|Status|—|—|20}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM42|Facade|Normal|Physical|70|100|20}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM44|Rest|Psychic|Status|—|—|10}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM45|Attract|Normal|Status|—|100|15}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM48|Round|Normal|Special|60|100|15}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM53|Energy Ball|Grass|Special|80|100|10||'''}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM70|Flash|Normal|Status|—|100|20}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM75|Swords Dance|Normal|Status|—|—|30}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM86|Grass Knot|Grass|Special|—|100|20||'''}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM87|Swagger|Normal|Status|—|90|15}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM90|Substitute|Normal|Status|—|—|10}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM94|Rock Smash|Fighting|Physical|40|100|15}}
{{learnlist/tm5|HM01|Cut|Normal|Physical|50|95|30}}
{{learnlist/tm5|HM04|Strength|Normal|Physical|80|100|15}}
{{learnlist/tmf|Grotle|Grass|Grass|5|4}}

====By {{pkmn|breeding}}====
{{learnlist/breedh/6|Grotle|Grass|Grass|4}}
{{learnlist/breed5|{{MSP|043|Oddish}}{{MSP|044|Gloom}}{{MSP|114|Tangela}}{{MSP|407|Roserade}}{{MSP|465|Tangrowth}}|Grassy Terrain|Grass|Status|—|—|10}}
{{learnlist/breed5|{{MSP|258|Mudkip}}|Wide Guard|Rock|Status|—|—|10|||*}}
{{learnlist/breedf/6|Grotle|Grass|Grass|2}}

====By [[Move Tutor|tutoring]]====
{{learnlist/tutorh/6|Grotle|Grass|Grass|4}}
{{learnlist/tutor6|Grass Pledge|Grass|Special|80|100|10||'''|yes}}
{{learnlist/tutorf/6|Grotle|Grass|Grass|4}}

====By a prior [[evolution]]====
{{Learnlist/prevoh|Grotle|Grass|Grass|5|4}}
{{Learnlist/prevo5null}}
{{Learnlist/prevof|Grotle|Grass|Grass|5|4}}

===Side game data===
{{Sidegame|
type=grass |
ndex=388 |
Dungeon2=yes |
body2=1 |
rate2=-10 |
iq=E |
Ranger2=yes |
group2=Grass |
assist2=Grass |
field2=Tackle |
field2power=2 |
browser2=It attacks by {{m|Razor Leaf|launching leaves}} like daggers. |
Ranger3=yes |
group3=Grass |
assist3=Grass |
field3=Tackle |
field3power=3 |
browser3=It creates vines around itself that make Pokémon Slowed. |
rumble=yes|
rumbleattack=3|
rumbledefense=3|
rumblespeed=3|
rumble2=yes|
rumble2attack=3|
rumble2defense=3|
rumble2speed=3|
}}

===Evolution===
{{Evobox-3
|type1=Grass
|pictype=art
|no1=387
|name1=Turtwig
|type1-1=Grass
|evo1={{bag|Rare Candy}} {{color2|000|Level|Level 18}}
|no2=388
|name2=Grotle
|type1-2=Grass
|evo2={{bag|Rare Candy}} {{color2|000|Level|Level 32}}
|no3=389
|name3=Torterra
|type1-3=Grass
|type2-3=Ground}}

===Sprites===
{{Sprite|
type=grass|
gen=4|
gender=none|
ndex=388|
name=Grotle|
}}
====Other sprites====
{| style="margin:auto; text-align:center; font-size: 80%; {{roundy|20px}} border: 2px solid #{{grass color dark}}; background: #{{grass color}};"
|-
| style="{{roundy|80px}} border: 2px solid #{{grass color dark}}; background: #{{grass color light}}; width:160px"| [[File:Spr 4p Grotle intro.png]]
|-
| Platinum intro's sprite
|}

==Trivia==
* Grotle is the heaviest of the second-stage [[starter Pokémon]].
* Grotle is the only second-stage [[Sinnoh]] starter Pokémon to [[Evolution|evolve]] at [[level]] 32. {{p|Monferno}} and {{p|Prinplup}} both evolve at level 36.
* When Grotle evolves into {{p|Torterra}}, all of its stats increase by 20 points.

===Origin===
{{Bulbanews|On the Origin of Species: Turtwig, Grotle and Torterra}}
Grotle is based on a {{wp|Chelydridae|snapping turtle}}, but may also originate from a {{wp|World Turtle}}, most likely Akūpāra. The ''{{wp|Cultural depictions of turtles and tortoises#Japan|minogame}}'' could be another inspiration.

====Name origin====
Grotle is a combination of ''{{wp|grove (nature)|grove}}'' and ''{{wp|turtle}}''. It may also derive from ''{{wp|grotto}}'' or ''grow'', referring to its Grass type.

Hayashigame is a combination of 林 ''hayashi'' (grove) and 亀 ''kame'' (turtle).

==In other languages==
{{Other languages|type=grass|type2=grass
|ja=ハヤシガメ ''Hayashigame''|jameaning=From {{tt|林 ''hayashi''|grove}} and {{tt|亀 ''kame''|turtle}}
|fr=Boskara|frmeaning=From ''{{tt|bosquet|forest}}'' and ''{{tt|carapace|shell}}''
|es=Grotle|esmeaning=Same as English name
|de=Chelcarain|demeaning=From {{tt|''Chelonia''|Greek for turtle}}, ''{{tt|Carapax|carapace}}'', and ''{{tt|Hain|grove}}''
|it=Grotle|itmeaning=Same as English name
|ko=수풀부기 ''Supulbugi''|komeaning=From {{tt|수풀 ''supul''|bushes}} and {{tt|거북이 ''geobugi''|turtle}}
|zh_cmn=樹林龜 / 树林龟 ''Shùlínguī''|zh_cmnmeaning=Literally "Forest turtle"

}}
 

==Related articles==
* [[Tru]]
* [[Paul's Torterra|Paul's Grotle]]
* [[Ash's Torterra|Ash's Grotle]]

==External links==
{{PokémonPrevNextFoot | type=grass | prevnum=387 | nextnum=389 | prev=Turtwig | next=Torterra }}
{{-}}
{{Project Pokédex notice}}

[[it:Grotle]]
[[pt:Grotle (pokémon)]]

[[de:Chelcarain]]
[[es:Grotle]]
[[fr:Boskara]]
[[ja:ハヤシガメ]]
[[pl:Grotle]]
[[zh:树林龟]]

Grotle (Pokémon)

2014-04-25T14:43:15Z

Pokepro97: /* Type effectiveness */

{{PokémonPrevNextHead | species=Grotle | type=grass | prevnum=387 | nextnum=389 | prev=Turtwig | next=Torterra }}
{{Pokémon Infobox |
name=Grotle |
jname=ハヤシガメ |
tmname=Hayashigame |
ndex=388 |
sdex=002 |
abrow=053 |
obrow=140 |
opbrow=040 |
typebox=1 |
type1=Grass |
species=Grove |
height-ftin=3'07" |
height-m=1.1 |
weight-lbs=213.8 |
weight-kg=97.0 |
abilityn=d |
ability1=Overgrow |
abilityd=Shell Armor |
egggroupn=2 |
egggroup1=Monster |
egggroup2=Grass |
eggcycles=21 |
evtotal=2 |
evat=1 |
evde=1 |
expyield=142 |
oldexp=141 |
lv100exp=1,059,860 |
gendercode=31 |
color=Green |
catchrate=45 |
body=08 |
pokefordex=grotle |
generation=4 |
friendship=70 |
}}
'''Grotle''' ([[List of Japanese Pokémon names|Japanese]]: '''ハヤシガメ''' ''Hayashigame'') is a {{type|Grass}} Pokémon.

It [[Evolution|evolves]] from {{p|Turtwig}} starting at [[level]] 18 and evolves into {{p|Torterra}} starting at level 32.

==Biology==
[[File:Grotle acorn.png|Grotle with acorns|220px|thumb|left]]
Grotle is a quadruped Pokémon with light green skin and a large shell covering its back. The shell is composed of hardened soil and conforms to the shape of Grotle's body, extending from its forehead to the tip of its short tail. The shell appears sectioned and is yellow with three long, brown ridges atop it. There are two bush-like trees growing around the outermost ridges. Grotle's lower jaw is yellow and has triangular extensions on the cheeks, while its upper jaw has a hooked tip. Its feet are yellow and have three claws each.

Grotle has the ability to sense where pure water wells up, and will carry other Pokémon on its back to these sources. Grotle lives in forests, but leaves during the day to allow more sunlight on its trees. Berries grow on the trees, attracting some species of Pokémon. In the anime, Grotle is seen to produce acorn-like nuts instead.

==In the anime==
[[File:Ash Grotle.png|thumb|left|230px|Grotle in the anime]]
===Major appearances===
====[[Ash's Grotle]]====
{{Ash}}'s Turtwig evolved into Grotle in ''[[DP100|Aiding the Enemy!]]''. This marked Grotle's debut appearance in the anime. In ''[[DP166|The Fleeing Tower of Sunyshore!]]'', Grotle evolved into {{p|Torterra}}.

===Minor appearances===
A Grotle appeared in the opening scenes of ''[[M13|Zoroark: Master of Illusions]]''.

Multiple Grotle appeared in [[Alexa]]'s magazine in ''[[BW134|The Journalist from Another Region!]].''
{{-}}

===Pokédex entries===
{{Animedexheader|Sinnoh}}
{{Animedexbody|DP100|Grotle|Ash's Pokédex|Grotle, the Grove Pokémon and the evolved form of {{p|Turtwig}}. Grotle lives near water in forests, and leaves the forest during the {{DL|Time|day}} to {{m|Synthesis|allow light to shine}} on the tree on its shell.}}
{{Animedexfooter/Pokémon|''Diamond & Pearl''|Sinnoh}}

==In the manga==
[[File:Tru Grotle.png|thumb|125px|Grotle in Pokémon Adventures]]
===In the Pokémon Adventures manga===
{{main|Tru}}
{{adv|Diamond}} had a Grotle named Tru, which is his {{p|Turtwig}}'s evolved form. It became stronger and (slightly) faster in this new form, but was scarcely used for battles, as it would have been ineffective against [[Gardenia]]'s {{type|Grass}} Pokémon, though it still helped {{adv|Platinum}} train for future Gym battles. Soon afterwards, the Grotle became a {{p|Torterra}} alongside [[Chimler]] in [[Veilstone City]] fighting a legion of {{tc|Galactic Grunt}}s, and its power and endurance grew tremendously.

===In the Pokémon Diamond and Pearl Adventure! manga===
{{OBP|Jun|DPA}}'s Turtwig evolved into a Grotle off-screen and later into Torterra.

==In the TCG==
{{main|Grotle (TCG)}}

==Game data==
===Pokédex entries===
{{Dex
|gen=4
|type=grass
|diamonddex=It lives along water in forests. In the daytime, it leaves the forest to sunbathe its treed shell.
|pearldex=The shell is hardened soil. Some Pokémon come to peck the berries growing on the trees on its back.
|platinumdex=It knows where pure water wells up. It carries fellow Pokémon there on its back.
|hgssdex=A Grotle that lives in the forest is said to have its own secret springwater.
|bwdex=It knows where pure water wells up. It carries fellow Pokémon there on its back.
|b2w2dex=It knows where pure water wells up. It carries fellow Pokémon there on its back.
|xdex=It lives along water in forests. In the daytime, it leaves the forest to sunbathe its treed shell.
|ydex=It knows where pure water wells up. It carries fellow Pokémon there on its back.
}}

===Game locations===
{{Availability|
type=grass |
gen=4 |
dparea=[[Evolution|Evolve]] {{p|Turtwig}} |
ptarea=[[Evolution|Evolve]] {{p|Turtwig}} |
hgssex=pal|
hgssarea=[[Trade]] |
gen5ex=none |
bwarea=[[Evolution|Evolve]] [[List of Pokémon Global Link promotions/Pokémon#Turtwig|Global Link event]] {{p|Turtwig}} |
b2w2ex=none |
b2w2area=[[Evolution|Evolve]] [[List of Pokémon Global Link promotions/Pokémon#Turtwig|Global Link event]] {{p|Turtwig}} |
gen6ex=none |
xyarea=[[Poké Transporter]] |
}}

====In side games====
{{SidegameAvail
|type=Grass
|ranger2=[[Vien Forest]]
|md2=[[Starter Pokémon]] [[Mystifying Forest]] (B1-B13) [[Mystery Jungle]] (B1-B29)
|scramble=[[Silent Forest]] Advanced Mode C & A
|ranger3=[[Canal Ruins]]
|rumble2=Desert: [[Sunny Seashore]]
}}

===Stats===
====Base stats====
{{BaseStats|
type=grass |
HP= 75 |
Attack= 89 |
Defense=85 |
SpAtk= 55 |
SpDef= 65 |
Speed= 36 }}

====Pokéathlon stats====
{{Pokéthlon
|type=Grass
|Speed=2
|SpeedMax=3
|Power=4
|PowerMax=4
|Technique=3
|TechniqueMax=3
|Stamina=4
|StaminaMax=5
|Jump=2
|JumpMax=3
}}

===Type effectiveness===
{{TypeEffectiveness|
type1=grass|
Normal= 100 |
Fighting=100 |
Flying= 200 |
Poison= 200 |
Ground= 50 |
Rock= 100 |
Bug= 200 |
Ghost= 100 |
Steel= 100 |

Fire= 200 |
Water= 50 |
Grass= 50 |
Electric= 50 |
Psychic= 100 |
Ice= 400 |
Dragon= 100 |
Dark= 100 |
Fairy= 100}}

===Learnset===
====By [[Level|leveling up]]====
{{learnlist/levelh|Grotle|Grass|Grass|5|4}}
{{learnlist/level5|Start|Tackle|Normal|Physical|50|100|35}}
{{learnlist/level5|Start|Withdraw|Water|Status|—|—|40}}
{{learnlist/level5|5|Withdraw|Water|Status|—|—|40}}
{{learnlist/level5|9|Absorb|Grass|Special|20|100|25||'''}}
{{learnlist/level5|13|Razor Leaf|Grass|Physical|55|95|25||'''}}
{{learnlist/level5|17|Curse|Ghost|Status|—|—|10}}
{{learnlist/level5|22|Bite|Dark|Physical|60|100|25}}
{{learnlist/level5|27|Mega Drain|Grass|Special|40|100|15||'''}}
{{learnlist/level5|32|Leech Seed|Grass|Status|—|90|10}}
{{learnlist/level5|37|Synthesis|Grass|Status|—|—|5}}
{{learnlist/level5|42|Crunch|Dark|Physical|80|100|15}}
{{learnlist/level5|47|Giga Drain|Grass|Special|75|100|10||'''}}
{{learnlist/level5|52|Leaf Storm|Grass|Special|140|90|5||'''}}
{{learnlist/levelf|Grotle|Grass|Grass|5|4}}

====By [[TM]]/[[HM]]====
{{learnlist/tmh|Grotle|Grass|Grass|5|4}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM06|Toxic|Poison|Status|—|90|10}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM10|Hidden Power|Normal|Special|—|100|15}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM11|Sunny Day|Fire|Status|—|—|5}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM16|Light Screen|Psychic|Status|—|—|30}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM17|Protect|Normal|Status|—|—|10}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM20|Safeguard|Normal|Status|—|—|25}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM21|Frustration|Normal|Physical|—|100|20}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM22|SolarBeam|Grass|Special|120|100|10||'''}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM27|Return|Normal|Physical|—|100|20}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM32|Double Team|Normal|Status|—|—|15}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM33|Reflect|Psychic|Status|—|—|20}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM42|Facade|Normal|Physical|70|100|20}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM44|Rest|Psychic|Status|—|—|10}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM45|Attract|Normal|Status|—|100|15}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM48|Round|Normal|Special|60|100|15}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM53|Energy Ball|Grass|Special|80|100|10||'''}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM70|Flash|Normal|Status|—|100|20}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM75|Swords Dance|Normal|Status|—|—|30}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM86|Grass Knot|Grass|Special|—|100|20||'''}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM87|Swagger|Normal|Status|—|90|15}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM90|Substitute|Normal|Status|—|—|10}}
{{learnlist/tm5|TM94|Rock Smash|Fighting|Physical|40|100|15}}
{{learnlist/tm5|HM01|Cut|Normal|Physical|50|95|30}}
{{learnlist/tm5|HM04|Strength|Normal|Physical|80|100|15}}
{{learnlist/tmf|Grotle|Grass|Grass|5|4}}

====By {{pkmn|breeding}}====
{{learnlist/breedh/6|Grotle|Grass|Grass|4}}
{{learnlist/breed5|{{MSP|043|Oddish}}{{MSP|044|Gloom}}{{MSP|114|Tangela}}{{MSP|407|Roserade}}{{MSP|465|Tangrowth}}|Grassy Terrain|Grass|Status|—|—|10}}
{{learnlist/breed5|{{MSP|258|Mudkip}}|Wide Guard|Rock|Status|—|—|10|||*}}
{{learnlist/breedf/6|Grotle|Grass|Grass|2}}

====By [[Move Tutor|tutoring]]====
{{learnlist/tutorh/6|Grotle|Grass|Grass|4}}
{{learnlist/tutor6|Grass Pledge|Grass|Special|80|100|10||'''|yes}}
{{learnlist/tutorf/6|Grotle|Grass|Grass|4}}

====By a prior [[evolution]]====
{{Learnlist/prevoh|Grotle|Grass|Grass|5|4}}
{{Learnlist/prevo5null}}
{{Learnlist/prevof|Grotle|Grass|Grass|5|4}}

===Side game data===
{{Sidegame|
type=grass |
ndex=388 |
Dungeon2=yes |
body2=1 |
rate2=-10 |
iq=E |
Ranger2=yes |
group2=Grass |
assist2=Grass |
field2=Tackle |
field2power=2 |
browser2=It attacks by {{m|Razor Leaf|launching leaves}} like daggers. |
Ranger3=yes |
group3=Grass |
assist3=Grass |
field3=Tackle |
field3power=3 |
browser3=It creates vines around itself that make Pokémon Slowed. |
rumble=yes|
rumbleattack=3|
rumbledefense=3|
rumblespeed=3|
rumble2=yes|
rumble2attack=3|
rumble2defense=3|
rumble2speed=3|
}}

===Evolution===
{{Evobox-3
|type1=Grass
|pictype=art
|no1=387
|name1=Turtwig
|type1-1=Grass
|evo1={{bag|Rare Candy}} {{color2|000|Level|Level 18}}
|no2=388
|name2=Grotle
|type1-2=Grass
|evo2={{bag|Rare Candy}} {{color2|000|Level|Level 32}}
|no3=389
|name3=Torterra
|type1-3=Grass
|type2-3=Ground}}

===Sprites===
{{Sprite|
type=grass|
gen=4|
gender=none|
ndex=388|
name=Grotle|
}}
====Other sprites====
{| style="margin:auto; text-align:center; font-size: 80%; {{roundy|20px}} border: 2px solid #{{grass color dark}}; background: #{{grass color}};"
|-
| style="{{roundy|80px}} border: 2px solid #{{grass color dark}}; background: #{{grass color light}}; width:160px"| [[File:Spr 4p Grotle intro.png]]
|-
| Platinum intro's sprite
|}

==Trivia==
* Grotle is the heaviest of the second-stage [[starter Pokémon]].
* Grotle is the only second-stage [[Sinnoh]] starter Pokémon to [[Evolution|evolve]] at [[level]] 32. {{p|Monferno}} and {{p|Prinplup}} both evolve at level 36.
* When Grotle evolves into {{p|Torterra}}, all of its stats increase by 20 points.

===Origin===
{{Bulbanews|On the Origin of Species: Turtwig, Grotle and Torterra}}
Grotle is based on a {{wp|Chelydridae|snapping turtle}}, but may also originate from a {{wp|World Turtle}}, most likely Akūpāra. The ''{{wp|Cultural depictions of turtles and tortoises#Japan|minogame}}'' could be another inspiration.

====Name origin====
Grotle is a combination of ''{{wp|grove (nature)|grove}}'' and ''{{wp|turtle}}''. It may also derive from ''{{wp|grotto}}'' or ''grow'', referring to its Grass type.

Hayashigame is a combination of 林 ''hayashi'' (grove) and 亀 ''kame'' (turtle).

==In other languages==
{{Other languages|type=grass|type2=grass
|ja=ハヤシガメ ''Hayashigame''|jameaning=From {{tt|林 ''hayashi''|grove}} and {{tt|亀 ''kame''|turtle}}
|fr=Boskara|frmeaning=From ''{{tt|bosquet|forest}}'' and ''{{tt|carapace|shell}}''
|es=Grotle|esmeaning=Same as English name
|de=Chelcarain|demeaning=From {{tt|''Chelonia''|Greek for turtle}}, ''{{tt|Carapax|carapace}}'', and ''{{tt|Hain|grove}}''
|it=Grotle|itmeaning=Same as English name
|ko=수풀부기 ''Supulbugi''|komeaning=From {{tt|수풀 ''supul''|bushes}} and {{tt|거북이 ''geobugi''|turtle}}
|zh_cmn=樹林龜 / 树林龟 ''Shùlínguī''|zh_cmnmeaning=Literally "Forest turtle"

}}
 

==Related articles==
* [[Tru]]
* [[Paul's Torterra|Paul's Grotle]]
* [[Ash's Torterra|Ash's Grotle]]

==External links==
{{PokémonPrevNextFoot | type=grass | prevnum=387 | nextnum=389 | prev=Turtwig | next=Torterra }}
{{-}}
{{Project Pokédex notice}}

[[it:Grotle]]
[[pt:Grotle (pokémon)]]

[[de:Chelcarain]]
[[es:Grotle]]
[[fr:Boskara]]
[[ja:ハヤシガメ]]
[[pl:Grotle]]
[[zh:树林龟]]

User talk:Pokepro97

2014-04-17T07:55:54Z

Pokepro97: /* Talk Page Comments */

User:Pokepro97

2014-04-17T05:32:13Z

Pokepro97:

<div class="userbox">
== About ==
{{User Join Date|date=22 July 2011|MainSeriesStarters.png|}}
{{User Male}}
{{User Chinese Year|128|Ox|FFFF80|0000FF}}
{{User Template|This user contributes using|wp:Mozilla|Mozilla Firefox.|037.png|black|gold|heartgold|red}}

== Favourite Pokemon ==
{{User Favorite Normal|143|Snorlax}}
{{User Favorite Fire|004|Charmander}}
{{User Favorite Fighting|057|Primeape}}
{{User Favorite Water|130|Gyarados}}
{{User:Schiffy/User Helix}}
{{User Favorite Water|139|Omastar|Lord Helix / Omastar / Our Master}}
{{User Favorite Flying|022|Fearow}}
{{User Favorite Grass|001|Bulbasaur}}

Missing: Poison

{{User Favorite Electric|145|Zapdos}}
{{User Favorite Ground|027|Sandshrew}}
{{User Favorite Psychic|097|Hypno}}
{{User Favorite Rock|185|Sudowoodo}}
{{User Favorite Ice|131|Lapras}}
{{User Favorite Bug|047|Parasect}}
{{User Favorite Dragon|149|Dragonite}}
{{User Favorite Ghost|094|Gengar}}
{{User Favorite Dark|197|Umbreon|575757|474747}}
{{User Favorite Dragon|149|Dragonite}}

Missing: Steel

{{User Favorite Fairy|175|Togepi}}
{{User Favorite Glitch|000|Missingno.}}

Okay... I couldn't stick to use primary types, I didn't have a favourite bug and Parasect's my favourite Grass and I figured I'd throw in Bulbasaur (at least I didn't pick another grass and use Bulbasaur as poison). I had to pick Lord Helix to pledge my alegiance, so that's why I have two waters. Bird and ??? types weren't within favourite types, so I couldn't pick a favourite with either, did Missingno. as favourite Glitch instead.

== Other Favourites ==

{{User Favorite Move|047|Toxic|Poison}}
</div>

== My Favourite Pokémon ==

If anyone sees this and knows how to add a template with the fancy box for Pokémon, it would be greatly appreciated if you tell me and place an example.

Mostly Gen 1 / 3^(FR/LG) and some Gen 2 (and one Gen 3). All excluding the Gen 2 ones are also obtainable in Pokémon Fire Red, my favourite Pokémon game and I may or may not've got them all to level 100 at some point before...

[[Zapdos]]

[[Charmander]]/[[Charizard]] (Don't like chameleon)

[[Bulbasaur]]

[[Squirtle]]/[[Wartortle]]/[[Blastoise]]

[[Eevee]]/[[Umbreon]]/[[Jolteon]] (Don't like Espeon or other [[Eeveelution|Eeveelutions]])

[[Totodile]]

[[Cyndaquil]]

[[Kadabra]]/[[Alakazam]]

[[Drowzee]]/[[Hypno]]

[[Fearow]]

[[Magikarp]]/[[Gyarados]]

[[Parasect]]

[[Growlithe]]/[[Arcanine]]

[[Suicune]]

[[Mankey]]/[[Primeape]]

[[Lapras]]

[[Omanyte]]/[[Omastar]](Our Master/Lord Helix)

...[[Pikachu]] (Who doesn't?)

[[Hitmonlee]]

[[Ninetales]]

[[Absol]]

== My Favourite Moves ==

Again, mostly Gen 1 / 3(FR/LG)

Curiously my favourites are mostly those even though my first game was Gen 3 - Pokémon Ruby.

[[Toxic]]

[[Sky_Attack|Sky Attack]]/[[Fly]]

[[Blast_Burn|Blast Burn]]

[[Fire_Blast|Fire Blast]]

[[Spore]]/[[Hypnosis]]/[[Sleep Powder]]/[[Sing]]

[[Dream_Eater|Dream Eater]]

[[Nightmare]]

[[Snore]]

[[Sleep_Talk|Sleep Talk]]

[[Surf]]/[[Waterfall]]

[[Earthquake]]/[[Blizzard]]/[[Heat_Wave|Heat Wave]]

[[Slash]]

[[Drill_Peck]]/[[Drill Peck]]

[[Psychic]]

[[Sand_Attack|Sand Attack]]/[[Smokescreen]]/[[Mud_Slap|Mud Slap]]

[[Payday]]

[[Double_Edge|Double Edge]]

[[Tri_Attack|Tri Attack]]

User:Pokepro97

2014-04-17T05:27:15Z

Pokepro97: /* My Favourite Pokémon */

<div class="userbox">
== About ==
{{User Join Date|date=22 July 2011|MainSeriesStarters.png|}}
{{User Male}}
{{User Chinese Year|128|Ox|FFFF80|0000FF}}
{{User Firefox}}
{{User Template|This user contributes using|wp:Mozilla|Mozilla Firefox.|037.png|black|gold|heartgold|red}}

== Favourite Pokemon ==
{{User Favorite Normal|143|Snorlax}}
{{User Favorite Fire|004|Charmander}}
{{User Favorite Fighting|057|Primeape}}
{{User Favorite Water|130|Gyarados}}
{{User:Schiffy/User Helix}}
{{User Favorite Water|139|Omastar|Lord Helix / Omastar / Our Master}}
{{User Favorite Flying|022|Fearow}}
{{User Favorite Grass|001|Bulbasaur}}

Missing: Poison

{{User Favorite Electric|145|Zapdos}}
{{User Favorite Ground|027|Sandshrew}}
{{User Favorite Psychic|097|Hypno}}
{{User Favorite Rock|185|Sudowoodo}}
{{User Favorite Ice|131|Lapras}}
{{User Favorite Bug|047|Parasect}}
{{User Favorite Dragon|149|Dragonite}}
{{User Favorite Ghost|094|Gengar}}
{{User Favorite Dark|197|Umbreon|575757|474747}}
{{User Favorite Dragon|149|Dragonite}}

Missing: Steel

{{User Favorite Fairy|175|Togepi}}
{{User Favorite Glitch|000|Missingno.}}

Okay... I couldn't stick to use primary types, I didn't have a favourite bug and Parasect's my favourite Grass and I figured I'd throw in Bulbasaur (at least I didn't pick another grass and use Bulbasaur as poison). I had to pick Lord Helix to pledge my alegiance, so that's why I have two waters. Bird and ??? types weren't within favourite types, so I couldn't pick a favourite with either, did Missingno. as favourite Glitch instead.

== Other Favourites ==

{{User Favorite Move|047|Toxic|Poison}}
</div>

== My Favourite Pokémon ==

If anyone sees this and knows how to add a template with the fancy box for Pokémon, it would be greatly appreciated if you tell me and place an example.

Mostly Gen 1 / 3^(FR/LG) and some Gen 2 (and one Gen 3). All excluding the Gen 2 ones are also obtainable in Pokémon Fire Red, my favourite Pokémon game and I may or may not've got them all to level 100 at some point before...

[[Zapdos]]

[[Charmander]]/[[Charizard]] (Don't like chameleon)

[[Bulbasaur]]

[[Squirtle]]/[[Wartortle]]/[[Blastoise]]

[[Eevee]]/[[Umbreon]]/[[Jolteon]] (Don't like Espeon or other [[Eeveelution|Eeveelutions]])

[[Totodile]]

[[Cyndaquil]]

[[Kadabra]]/[[Alakazam]]

[[Drowzee]]/[[Hypno]]

[[Fearow]]

[[Magikarp]]/[[Gyarados]]

[[Parasect]]

[[Growlithe]]/[[Arcanine]]

[[Suicune]]

[[Mankey]]/[[Primeape]]

[[Lapras]]

[[Omanyte]]/[[Omastar]](Our Master/Lord Helix)

...[[Pikachu]] (Who doesn't?)

[[Hitmonlee]]

[[Ninetales]]

[[Absol]]

== My Favourite Moves ==

Again, mostly Gen 1 / 3(FR/LG)

Curiously my favourites are mostly those even though my first game was Gen 3 - Pokémon Ruby.

[[Toxic]]

[[Sky_Attack|Sky Attack]]/[[Fly]]

[[Blast_Burn|Blast Burn]]

[[Fire_Blast|Fire Blast]]

[[Spore]]/[[Hypnosis]]/[[Sleep Powder]]/[[Sing]]

[[Dream_Eater|Dream Eater]]

[[Nightmare]]

[[Snore]]

[[Sleep_Talk|Sleep Talk]]

[[Surf]]/[[Waterfall]]

[[Earthquake]]/[[Blizzard]]/[[Heat_Wave|Heat Wave]]

[[Slash]]

[[Drill_Peck]]/[[Drill Peck]]

[[Psychic]]

[[Sand_Attack|Sand Attack]]/[[Smokescreen]]/[[Mud_Slap|Mud Slap]]

[[Payday]]

[[Double_Edge|Double Edge]]

[[Tri_Attack|Tri Attack]]

User:Pokepro97

2014-04-17T05:26:35Z

Pokepro97: /* My Favourite Moves */

<div class="userbox">
== About ==
{{User Join Date|date=22 July 2011|MainSeriesStarters.png|}}
{{User Male}}
{{User Chinese Year|128|Ox|FFFF80|0000FF}}
{{User Firefox}}
{{User Template|This user contributes using|wp:Mozilla|Mozilla Firefox.|037.png|black|gold|heartgold|red}}

== Favourite Pokemon ==
{{User Favorite Normal|143|Snorlax}}
{{User Favorite Fire|004|Charmander}}
{{User Favorite Fighting|057|Primeape}}
{{User Favorite Water|130|Gyarados}}
{{User:Schiffy/User Helix}}
{{User Favorite Water|139|Omastar|Lord Helix / Omastar / Our Master}}
{{User Favorite Flying|022|Fearow}}
{{User Favorite Grass|001|Bulbasaur}}

Missing: Poison

{{User Favorite Electric|145|Zapdos}}
{{User Favorite Ground|027|Sandshrew}}
{{User Favorite Psychic|097|Hypno}}
{{User Favorite Rock|185|Sudowoodo}}
{{User Favorite Ice|131|Lapras}}
{{User Favorite Bug|047|Parasect}}
{{User Favorite Dragon|149|Dragonite}}
{{User Favorite Ghost|094|Gengar}}
{{User Favorite Dark|197|Umbreon|575757|474747}}
{{User Favorite Dragon|149|Dragonite}}

Missing: Steel

{{User Favorite Fairy|175|Togepi}}
{{User Favorite Glitch|000|Missingno.}}

Okay... I couldn't stick to use primary types, I didn't have a favourite bug and Parasect's my favourite Grass and I figured I'd throw in Bulbasaur (at least I didn't pick another grass and use Bulbasaur as poison). I had to pick Lord Helix to pledge my alegiance, so that's why I have two waters. Bird and ??? types weren't within favourite types, so I couldn't pick a favourite with either, did Missingno. as favourite Glitch instead.

== Other Favourites ==

{{User Favorite Move|047|Toxic|Poison}}
</div>

== My Favourite Pokémon ==

If anyone sees this and knows how to add a template with the fancy box for Pokémon, it would be greatly appreciated if you tell me and place an example, I will move this to the user page when I am given permission to create it.

Mostly Gen 1 / 3^(FR/LG) and some Gen 2 (and one Gen 3). All excluding the Gen 2 ones are also obtainable in Pokémon Fire Red, my favourite Pokémon game and I may or may not've got them all to level 100 at some point before...

[[Zapdos]]

[[Charmander]]/[[Charizard]] (Don't like chameleon)

[[Bulbasaur]]

[[Squirtle]]/[[Wartortle]]/[[Blastoise]]

[[Eevee]]/[[Umbreon]]/[[Jolteon]] (Don't like Espeon or other [[Eeveelution|Eeveelutions]])

[[Totodile]]

[[Cyndaquil]]

[[Kadabra]]/[[Alakazam]]

[[Drowzee]]/[[Hypno]]

[[Fearow]]

[[Magikarp]]/[[Gyarados]]

[[Parasect]]

[[Growlithe]]/[[Arcanine]]

[[Suicune]]

[[Mankey]]/[[Primeape]]

[[Lapras]]

[[Omanyte]]/[[Omastar]](Our Master/Lord Helix)

...[[Pikachu]] (Who doesn't?)

[[Hitmonlee]]

[[Ninetales]]

[[Absol]]

== My Favourite Moves ==

Again, mostly Gen 1 / 3(FR/LG)

Curiously my favourites are mostly those even though my first game was Gen 3 - Pokémon Ruby.

[[Toxic]]

[[Sky_Attack|Sky Attack]]/[[Fly]]

[[Blast_Burn|Blast Burn]]

[[Fire_Blast|Fire Blast]]

[[Spore]]/[[Hypnosis]]/[[Sleep Powder]]/[[Sing]]

[[Dream_Eater|Dream Eater]]

[[Nightmare]]

[[Snore]]

[[Sleep_Talk|Sleep Talk]]

[[Surf]]/[[Waterfall]]

[[Earthquake]]/[[Blizzard]]/[[Heat_Wave|Heat Wave]]

[[Slash]]

[[Drill_Peck]]/[[Drill Peck]]

[[Psychic]]

[[Sand_Attack|Sand Attack]]/[[Smokescreen]]/[[Mud_Slap|Mud Slap]]

[[Payday]]

[[Double_Edge|Double Edge]]

[[Tri_Attack|Tri Attack]]

User talk:Pokepro97

2014-04-17T05:26:01Z

Pokepro97: /* Template mistake */

User talk:Pokepro97

2014-04-17T05:25:48Z

Pokepro97: /* A few things */

Talk:Kris (game)

2014-04-17T05:24:54Z

Pokepro97: /* Missing Overworld Sprites */

[[Image:Kris.png|thumb|right]]
Just a question, but where exactly is "Kris" the official spelling? "Crys" or "Crystal" make more sense to me, considering the names of the other heroes.--[[User:Biccy|Biccy]] 19:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
:It's in the list of available names. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]{{ani|155|Fire echy}}[[User:TTEchidna/GSDS|GSDS!]]''' 20:01, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

::Additionally, the back of the US [[Pokémon Crystal|Crystal]] box says in one area, "New female trainer '''Kris''' faces the {{p|Unown}}." If that and the screenshot are not confirmation enough, I don't know what is. --[[User:Shiningpikablu252|Shiningpikablu252]] 21:18, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
:::>>; It's been many a year since I looked at the box, but gotcha.--[[User:Biccy|Biccy]] 19:44, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

== Is this worth adding? ==

Is it worth adding? [[User:Takoto|~~Takoto]] - [[User_talk:Takoto|サソデイ]] 11:21, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
:Stretched, enlarged GBC overworld sprite? Think not... --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] 12:02, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
:Isn't it darker than usual? [[User:Tc26/Anime Predictions|tc]][[User:Tc26|²₆]][[User talk:Tc26|tc]][[User:Tc26/Sandbox|26]] 12:03, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
::Yes, and it's just an overworld sprite. I don't think it's worth adding. --'''[[Johto|☆]][[User:Alpha Totodile|A]][[User talk:Alpha Totodile|T]][[Special:Contributions/Alpha Totodile|♂]]''' 12:06, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
:::Ah sorry, I let my brother mess around on my account because he said he wanted to do some editing (but was too lazy to make his own). Sorry for the trouble. [[User:Takoto|~~Takoto]] - [[User_talk:Takoto|サソデイ]] 16:29, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

== MERGE TIIIIME ==

Yes or no. Soul is Kris. Merge it here? '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 19:28, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
:Source? - [[User:Pokéman|Pokéman]] 21:58, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
::Look at bulbanews. If you need a link, top of the news stuff on the main page. --[[Gallade|'''エ''']][[User:Galladeon|'''ルレ''']][[User talk:Galladeon|'''イ''''''ド''']] 21:59, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
:::How does that confirm that Soul is Kris? - [[User:Pokéman|Pokéman]] 22:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
::::Ask the Echidna. You ''do'' realize that he's the Editor-in-Chief, right? --[[Gallade|'''エ''']][[User:Galladeon|'''ルレ''']][[User talk:Galladeon|'''イ''''''ド''']] 22:05, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
:::::Yeah, but what does that have to do with this? - [[User:Pokéman|Pokéman]] 22:09, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
::::::No. Don't merge. One thing from Crystal does not mean everything from Crystal. --[[Tracey Sketchit|'''ケンジ''']][[User talk:Kenji-girl|'''の''']][[User:Kenji-girl|'''ガール''']] 22:21, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Seconded. - [[User:Pokéman|Pokéman]] 22:26, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
::::::::Let's just say hypothetically that she is Soul, but the game drops the name Kris but keeps Soul. Does that mean we start calling her Soul? --[[Tracey Sketchit|'''ケンジ''']][[User talk:Kenji-girl|'''の''']][[User:Kenji-girl|'''ガール''']] 22:43, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::Pretty much, yea. If there's no concrete evidence relating her to Kris, then she's a completely new character. '''[[User:TheChrisD|TheChrisD]]''' [[User_talk:TheChrisD|Rants]]•[[Special:Contributions/TheChrisD|Edits]] 14:45, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

== Do we know for sure? ==

The article's "Trivia" section clearly states that Kris "is ''not'' the female choice" in [[Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver Versions|HeartGold and SoulSilver]]. However, it is not clear whether she and Soul are the same character or not. In addition, all other articles with information pertaining to the subject are in [[King of Pokélantis|possession]] of far greater neutrality. I suggest that this text be changed to read "is ''believed'' not to be the female choice". I'd do it myself, but it seems that the article has been Protected, and therefore, only an Administrator can make the suggested change. Anyone agree with me? [[User:Glitchipedia|This message brought to you by Glitchipedia, the falsified encyclopedia]] 03:17, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

== Should we add? ==

Since some people don't know about Soul yet, can't there be a link to Soul(game) at the top?--[[User:The Bulb's Master|The Bulb's Master]] 01:06, 16 August 2009 (UTC) Master of Bulbasaur and Turtwig♀
:Why? It's at the bottom. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 03:45, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't see that! But shouldn't we put like: ''This is about the female hero of Crystal. If your'e looking for the female hero of HeartGold and SoulSilver, Please click here.''
--[[User:The Bulb's Master|The Bulb's Master is the Master of Bulbasaur, Turtwig, and, most reacently, Chikorita.]] 16:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Can't someone talk!?!--[[User:The Bulb's Master|The Bulb's Master is the Master of Bulbasaur, Turtwig♀, and most reacently, Chikorita♂]] 13:03, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

:I don't see the point in even having a separate article for the HG/SS design. It's the same storyline and they're both the female player character in it, so it makes more sense to put them into a single article regardless of whether they are the same character or not.[[User:Jeff|-Jeff]][[User talk:Jeff|(talk)]] 16:46, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

==Err==
I was going to add Kris' backsprite (KrisBack.png) to the article, not realizing the page was protected... could somebody do this for me or should I just wait until after HGSS come out? T_T [[User:Zesty Cactus|'''Zesty''''''Cactus''']] 04:55, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

==Kotone/Soul==
This should probably be updated to reflect Soul's real name (Kotone) and how she is definitely a new character/Kris' replacement/etc, I'd do it myself but the page is still protected. :P [[User:Zesty Cactus|'''Zesty''''''Cactus''']] 00:18, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
:I was just about to add a section about this myself. But seriously, Admin's you need to get on the ball when it comes to Relinking! I would do it myself as well, but; like Zesty said; It's protected. [[User talk: ShinyPikachu|Shiny]][[User:ShinyPikachu|'''Pika''']] 03:28, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

== Confirmation that Soul and Kris are separate chars ==

I just looked at Serebii and noticed that Soul is present in the preview pics for the next episode in Japan. When that episode airs, we should know for sure whether or not Soul and Kris are the same character, as we have seen Marina (Kris's anime counterpart) in the past. --[[Gallade|'''エ''']][[User:Galladeon|'''ルレ''']][[User talk:Galladeon|'''イ''''''ド''']] 21:26, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
:That's kinda... [[Kotone_(anime)|old news]]. D: also, her official name according to Pokémon Sunday is actually Kotone, not Soul. :P [[User:Zesty Cactus|'''Zesty''''''Cactus''']] 21:59, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

== Unblock the page ==

It's not like anything needs to be protected, what with Kotone's revelation and all. {{color|28E228|--[[User:Bulbafan|Bulbafan]] 00:12, 27 September 2009 (UTC) [[User talk:Bulbafan|My talk page]]}}

== The lookalike? ==

Is it a trainer class, NPC in Pokémon Stadium 2, it needs to be more specific.--'''[[User:Midnight Blue|Midnight]] [[User talk:Midnight Blue|''Blue'']]''' 01:04, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
:You're right. Does anyone have a pic of it? By the way MB, you did your sig twice... [[User:CuboneKing|Cu]][[User talk:CuboneKing|bo]][[Special:Contributions/CuboneKing|ne]][[Cubone (Pokémon)|King]] 01:05, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
::Oh I did?, I'm sorry, did not mean to. Anyways, can we trace back to whoever wrote it in and get more info? To see if there is a lookalike.--'''[[User:Midnight Blue|Midnight]] [[User talk:Midnight Blue|''Blue'']]''' 01:07, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
:::It was Zesty. [[User:CuboneKing|Cu]][[User talk:CuboneKing|bo]][[Special:Contributions/CuboneKing|ne]][[Cubone (Pokémon)|King]] 01:10, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
::::[[File:S2_Heroine.png]] This is the Stadium 2 girl when you use a Crystal game with Kris selected as the player character. Not very alike other than the hair... vaguely... →''[[User:Tina|'''T'''inā]]'' [[User talk:Tina|♫]][[Special:Contributions/Tina|δ]] 01:22, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
:::::That looks nothing like Kris. I'm removing the trivia. [[User:CuboneKing|Cu]][[User talk:CuboneKing|bo]][[Special:Contributions/CuboneKing|ne]][[Cubone (Pokémon)|King]] 01:24, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

::::::The only place I saw Kris's picture (i.e. an actual Kris picture) in Stadium 2 was in the credits against the rival. --[[User:Shiningpikablu252|Shiningpikablu252]] 03:08, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Can you provide a screen shot?--'''[[User:Midnight Blue|Midnight]] [[User talk:Midnight Blue|''Blue'']]''' 03:39, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
::::::::In retrospect she's more of a female Red lookalike than a Kris lookalike, but she still only appears if you're playing as Kris... so I reworded it as more of a side note. [[User:Zesty Cactus|'''Zesty''']][[User talk:Zesty Cactus|'''Cactus''']] 05:10, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::I'd say that she's more similar to Kotone. But it's just me. But she's as much Kris's "counterpart" as the player boy is both Red's and Gold's counterpart. Why don't we have them mentioned on their respective pages? However, the thing on her icon appearing in Stadium 2 credits is TOTALLY worth noting. I'll try to beat Silver and get the screenshot of credits. --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] 18:14, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

== Kris in Pokemon Stadium 2 ==

[[File:Kris PS2.png]]
This is the only thing I can do, if it's not good enough, then, is there a way to get it from the game? It's in the credits just to add.--'''[[User:Midnight Blue|Midnight]] [[User talk:Midnight Blue|''Blue'']]''' 02:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
:Do you have a way of taking screenshots? [[User:CuboneKing|Cu]][[User talk:CuboneKing|bo]][[Special:Contributions/CuboneKing|ne]][[Cubone (Pokémon)|King]] 02:03, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
::Well, i took that from my computer from a youtube video, and I cropped it just to show that she appears in the game. But, I have no other way to get a pic of her.--'''[[User:Midnight Blue|Midnight]] [[User talk:Midnight Blue|''Blue'']]''' 02:07, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
:::I can hopefully get a better screenshot, I just need to know where exactly in the game that image appears. Does it appear anywhere else in the game besides the credits? —♥ [[User:Jello|Jel]][[User Talk:Jello|lo]] 02:09, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
::::I'm not sure, i was watching the ending and just noticed her. If you can get a better pic, it would be nice. I might look at the ending again to see if there anything else useful.--'''[[User:Midnight Blue|Midnight]] [[User talk:Midnight Blue|''Blue'']]''' 02:11, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

:::::Well, I wouldn't recommend capturing off a Youtube video, but a Youtube video does make a good reference for time code references. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wba6WwOj5IM Try this video] around the 3:48 mark; bottom right of the battle scene, Kris's icon appears in her original {{v2|Crystal}} incarnation (for obvious reasons; odds are her {{2v2|HeartGold|SoulSilver}} redesign probably wasn't even on the drawing board yet), with the opposite corner having the [[Generation II]] [[Silver (game)|rival]]. It's the second-to-last such scene played in the credits (the last such scene, the one after Kris's appearance, has an interesting anime allusion involving {{ga|Blue}} and {{ga|Red}}). --[[User:Shiningpikablu252|Shiningpikablu252]] 02:27, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
::::::Kris appears there because... Stadium 2 was Generation II. Duh? That's like saying that Ash in his Kanto/Orange/Johto clothes in an old episode is because they hadn't thought of the Hoenn or Sinnoh outfits yet. It's... because that's what he wore. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 02:32, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

== Merger tiems ==

So {{adv|Crystal}} is dressed in Lyra's outfit in the HGSS chapter, just like how {{adv|Green}} was dressed as Leaf. Like the RGB girl who never made it in is Leaf, the GSC girl who never made it in until Crystal ''is'' Lyra. Lyra is Kris, and Ethan is Gold. Maxim, you can feel free to blow a gasket now, but the fact that she has two anime counterparts means nothing, because so does Red. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 06:14, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
: There is one difference here, there is early RGB game art that features Green, which proves that she was indeed a planned character in the RGB story. No such hints exist for Kris as far as I know (?), and since the games are the ultimate canon in the franchise, it would be more assuring to have concrete evidence from the game canon that Lyra is Kris. This could be a case like Adventure's confirmation that Giovanni was Silver's father, but as I recall, we didn't take that as 100% confirmed canon until we got confirmation via HGSS. [[User:Trainer-c|Trainer-c]] 06:36, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::I don't see why it would be impossible for them to be separate characters in the games, yet the same character in ''Adventures'' on the basis that the artists are lazy. Interested persons may also wish to see [[Talk: Lyra (game)]]. —'''darklord[[User talk:The dark lord trombonator|trom]]''' 06:50, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

is it just mere stupidity or a matter of unacceptability that people here cannot face the fact that lyra is indeed kris reasons:

:1) lyra is a vast design of kris which infact shown on how the manga artist of adventures doesn't use a color blue hair for kris but brown.
:2) kris is indeed a beta design for lyra because during that time the color scheme for lyra's hair was not available for gameboy color.
:3) how the f*** told you that this character's name is kris is it just fan name like how ethan was named gold before he was officially named.
:4) look at her clothes does it clearly resembles the one lyra was wearing even the hair style they just add a ribbon on her hat you didn't recognize her.
:5) and lastly she could have two anime counterpart like how ash and ritchie is based on red.
[[User:Badwolf1234|Badwolf1234]] 08:58, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Eh... I've seen that coming. There is one thing that makes me mad. That Ritchie is saw as Red's counterpart here. Ritchie is a counterpart of Ash, there's nothing in him that could be based directly on Red. His team is pretty much Ash's team, the clothes are even less similar to Red's ones than Ash's. Ash is the only real Red's countepart. Also, look at what Kusaka have done with the Team Rocket Executives. This makes his decision on Lyra/Kris even less reliable. We've got two contradicting ones. I don't see how we should trust Special but not the anime - I can see why people think that Special is better and conveys the game world much better than anime. But it's still not the same thing. We've got no proof on the game's side on who "Lyra" really is (or rather, who Kris really is). It's also annoying how so many people compare this situation to Blue/"Leaf". She was just a beta design for RGB. We don't even know if they really wanted to put her in the game. Kris, on the other side, was a FINAL thing. And she had her blue hair even in the artwork. It doesn't have anything to do with the GBC pallette. We should not judge the games by other canons, since if we ignore them, there is nothing that could confirm either scenario (aside from some fan-worked "patterns"). It's simply safer to consider them separate for the games. The "battle" between New-Lyra and Old-Lyra is now 1:1. It's a draw. And draw means, that we must not change anything. --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] 11:23, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

:Usually I sit back and mind my own buisness, but this time... I'll have to disagree with you TTE. Look, Lyra and Kris. Both got their own ''official'' names. Also, they have different looks. Very different. Two different anime counterparts as well, although you say that doesn't count. Pokemon Adventures does not matter, they just did that because they didn't have a name for Lyra. They can't name her after the recent games, because they are basically Gold and Silver. Also, what about in the Gold and Silver arc? With Chermaine and Keane. Does that mean we have to fuse their articles with Archer and Arianna? Maybe they just dropped Krys to add a new spin for HG/SS? Either way, I don't think that they are the same person. [[User:Littlmiget123|Littlmiget123]] 12:45, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::I kind of feel the same way about keeping the articles apart. Crystal winding up in Lyra's clothing isn't conclusive on the matter at all. I could say the reason it was done so was because the "versions" of HG and SS are already covered in {{adv|Gold}} and {{adv|Silver}} and so as to not create a protagonist that would fall out of the version name theme. It's one thing to create a character for a version, such as Emerald and Yellow, but to need to sort out a version issue for a new character? Better to go with the easy way out (by amalgamating the two), than having to wage war on what to call the new character that continues the theme (when there's no possible way to). [[User:ArcToraphim|Luna Tiger]] * [[User talk:ArcToraphim|the Arc Toraph]] 13:39, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:::I think the games and anime should stay apart still. [[Marina (Johto)]] and [[Lyra (anime)]] are completely different characters, and [[Kris (game)]] and [[Lyra (game)]] are completely different characters. Just because the manga was too lazy to make a new character doesn't mean anything. The manga is hardly official cannon, as stated above. While it does give good second opinions, it does not trump the games and anime. '''[[User:Blake|Blake]]''' [[User talk:Blake#top|Talk]]·[[Special:Contributions/Blake|Edits]] 13:57, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::::The anime doesn't trump the manga either. They're too different to compare. And since there's no proof between collaborative effort between anyone from GF and Kusaka, no one can use it as proof that he's doing what GF meant for it to be all along: that they are the same. Honestly though, if they meant for Lyra to be Kris, why is Ethan still retain the major traits of Hiro, but Lyra get nothing from Kris...except maybe her short-shorts and redecoed pigtails? [[User:ArcToraphim|Luna Tiger]] * [[User talk:ArcToraphim|the Arc Toraph]] 15:05, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::The anime appears on Pokemon.com. The manga doesn't. That sort of makes the anime more official then Adventures. Plus, really, if you look at both of them, they don't really look anything alike. Gold and Ethan look alike 5x more then Kris and Lyra do. '''[[User:Blake|Blake]]''' [[User talk:Blake#top|Talk]]·[[Special:Contributions/Blake|Edits]] 15:14, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::No manga appears on Pokemon.com that isn't based on the anime. Which is the point. They're an entirely different venture. [[User:ArcToraphim|Luna Tiger]] * [[User talk:ArcToraphim|the Arc Toraph]] 15:33, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::I think the only thing this proves is that a hypothetical "Adventures Lyra" does not exist, with Crystal taking the role on. Adventures also seems less apt to just go out and retcon things in the continuity, where, obviously, Gamefreak doesn't mind retconning various things in the games if the Johto Regional Pokédex means anything. And didn't Pokémon Sunday say that they were different characters, or is that a fandom myth?--[[User:Purimpopoie|Purimpopoie]] 16:23, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

:::::::Either it's a fandom myth, or Gold and Ethan are also different characters. Nobody in their right mind would think one was a redesign and the other is a replacement--the only reasons anyone would buy would either be "if Gold is Ethan then Kris is Lyra" or "if Kris is not Lyra then Gold is not Ethan". Nobody in their right mind would buy "Gold is Ethan but Kris is not Lyra"; it would also take a loony to claim that "Gold is not Ethan but Kris is Lyra". Do keep in mind that several Crystal elements made their way into the game as well; as far as I'm concerned, the female player character is one of them. --[[User:Shiningpikablu252|Shiningpikablu252]] 16:34, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::::No, it's entirely possible to think "Ethan = Gold but Lyra =/= Kris," because Kris and Lyra look nothing alike, compared to Ethan and Gold, who basically got his same clothing upgrade, and doesn't stray far ''at all'' from his original design. All the Crystal elements in the world do not prove one way or another that Lyra is, in fact, ''meant'' to be Kris (and it's only our opinion [at this point] if she is or isn't), on the principle that neither Silver nor Gold got so completely retcon'd in their 2.0 appearance. Also, if she was meant to be the epitome of Kris, why isn't she being treated like Kris? Why does Lyra exist as a separate entity from Ethan, when Kris and Hiro were interchangeable (akin to Red and Leaf)? [[User:ArcToraphim|Luna Tiger]] * [[User talk:ArcToraphim|the Arc Toraph]] 17:39, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::First off, let me say, Pikablu, that you shouldn't be going around and calling users insane or looney. That's just mean, and is technically cyber-bullying.
:::::::::Also, Luna Tiger is right. Gold ''is'' Ethan. Gold wasn't his official name and HG/SS gave him one. Obviously Gold and Ethan are the same person. Lyra and Marina (I call her Marina, so if you see Marina, I mean Krys) have a huge difference between each other. Like I said before, if you fuse Lyra and Marina, that'd be like fusing Chermaine with Arianna, even though they are two different characters. [[User:Littlmiget123|Littlmiget123]] 18:19, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::Wah, cyber-bullying. I see that... ''term'', to use the word loosely, I think instantly one of two things: user is not to be taken seriously, or user is a complete wimp. It's the internets, grow a thicker skin.
::::::::::As for Gold not being his official name... well look at the first dang page of the instruction book for Gold. Ta dah! Gold! And it's one N, dammit. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 21:13, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::I was just stating that for his sake, not for mine. Honestly, I could care less what people call me, but he's gotten in trouble for this before. And I'm sorry, but does it really matter how to spell it, though? You know who I'm talking about XD [[User:Littlmiget123|Littlmiget123]] 21:18, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::Just to point it out, the "official" naming of Kris as "Kris" was only on the US box from what I can tell. The back of the Japanese box (seen [http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/customer-media/product-gallery/B00005OVBL/ref=cm_ciu_pdp_images_1?ie=UTF8&index=1 here]) doesn't refer to her as "{{tt|クリス|Kris}}" at all, but as "{{tt|女の子の主人公|Girl Protagonist}}" (the full sentence includes Gold, who is merely called {{tt|男の子[の主人公]|Boy [Protagonist]}}, the "主人公" part implied by the use of the {{tt|と|and}} particle). However, I have no access to the manual to say it wasn't in there either. Either way, "Gold" became Hibiki/Ethan despite being referred to as "Gold" in the manual, and yet similar evidence is used to keep "Kris" separate from Kotone/Lyra? Kotone is not ''completely'' different from "Kris" as people are claiming, so I don't get why these characters with the same situation as Gold/Hibiki/Ethan are being kept separate. The only place these two are ''confirmed'' to be separate people is in the anime. --[[User:NyaChan|NyaChan]] 21:57, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
(reset indent) Mind if I butt in? I think that they gave Kris Lyra's clothes in Adventures because if they made a new character, what were they going to name her? "HeartGold" or "SoulSilver"? [[User:CuboneKing|Cu]][[User talk:CuboneKing|bo]][[Special:Contributions/CuboneKing|ne]][[Cubone (Pokémon)|King]] 22:02, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:Indent reset~
:Just because they're the same in the manga doesn't make them the same in the games. If this is "proof" they're the same, then Lyra in the anime is ''just as much'' proof that they're different. [[User:Reign|Reign]] 22:15, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::I'm pretty sure ハート/Heart or ソウル/Soul. It's not like the fandom didn't call her one of the two before her name was revealed. They gave Kris Kotone's clothes because she's ''supposed'' to be a redesign of Kris, not a new character. Her hair is a clear show of that. Yes, it's not blue nor does it have that wacky 90-degree bend, but can anyone really say it's ''completely'' different? After all, PokéSpe HGSS Kris looks like what a PokéSpe Kotone would probably look like, with slightly darker hair.
::But still, personally I don't like how Gold = Hibiki/Ethan when we can say he was called "Gold" in the manuals while Kris =/= Kotone/Lyra because her name was on the back of the box. They're similar situations, so I don't get why one merges and the other doesn't. And that has ''nothing'' to do with the anime/manga. :/ --[[User:NyaChan|NyaChan]] 22:19, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:::If they're meant to be the same, then why didn't the anime make them the same as well? Manga canon and game canon are seperate, and just because it's true in one does not mean it's true in the other. [[User:Reign|Reign]] 22:22, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::::As are game canon and anime canon. What I think the reasoning is for calling Kotone/Lyra by her game name rather than "Marina" is because of the game name = anime name that they seem to like doing these days. Also, "Marina" and "Jimmy" can be point to why "Kris" and "Gold" weren't real names for them, but I won't go into that. However, my second point still stands. Ignoring both anime and manga canon, Gold/Hibiki/Ethan was in similar situation as Kris/Kotone/Lyra. He was called "Gold" in the manual while she was called "Kris" on the back of the box. Why is one joined and the other not? --[[User:NyaChan|NyaChan]] 22:37, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::Because Gold and Ethan look almost exactly the same. If they meant for Gold and Ethan to be different, they would have given the male player a completely new design, which they didn't. However, Kris and Lyra look ''nothing'' alike. [[User:CuboneKing|Cu]][[User talk:CuboneKing|bo]][[Special:Contributions/CuboneKing|ne]][[Cubone (Pokémon)|King]] 22:41, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::I'm aware game and anime canon are seperate as well. The point with Ethan is he's pretty clearly Gold, his design hasn't changed much at all. Lyra, however, only has the hair to go by. It's never made clear in the games if they're the same, they are the same in the manga, and they're clearly different in the anime. Sooo I think we shouldn't assume either way and leave them seperate until someone at GameFreak pretty much outright says it. [[User:Reign|Reign]] 22:44, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::::You can't really say they are the same character because their hair looks alike. Their hair is not really similar at all. As you sated, I think Lyra in the anime and games is a whole different character. Just because Crystal dresses as Lyra, doesn't mean they are, in other cannon, the same character. Pokemon Adventures =/= official cannon for everything. It is written by a third party. '''[[User:Blake|Blake]]''' [[User talk:Blake#top|Talk]]·[[Special:Contributions/Blake|Edits]] 22:50, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::Urgh, I really hate this argument because it's really clear Kotone is just a vast redesign of Kris. Why does the fact she got a larger overhaul than Hibiki mean she's a new person. She's not. Kotone's design is ''clearly'' based off Kris, no matter how vastly redesigned. Seriously, why does this make her a brand new character. It's not just the hair, her outfit shares a similar color scheme, she still has the hoodie part, and her overalls have shorts rather than a skirt they could have opted for, and her shirt is red as well. I find it funny people were quick to call her a Mario clone, but fail to see the similarities to a character design ''in the same franchise''. --[[User:NyaChan|NyaChan]] 22:51, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:What harm is it to keep them separate, when official they have not been announced as the same character? It does not help anything to merge them. '''[[User:Blake|Blake]]''' [[User talk:Blake#top|Talk]]·[[Special:Contributions/Blake|Edits]] 22:53, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::I'm of the same opinion Blake's got. And NyaChan, believe me, I wanted Lyra ot be Kris when she was first revealed. But I'm not seeing any of those similarities you're listing at all beyond hair - and even then, the color is different. [[User:Reign|Reign]] 22:56, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:::I'm got the same opinion as you two. It's not officially announced, and there are hardly any similarities. [[User:CuboneKing|Cu]][[User talk:CuboneKing|bo]][[Special:Contributions/CuboneKing|ne]][[Cubone (Pokémon)|King]] 22:59, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::::Nor does it harm to merge it. =3= The only problem I see is people will whine about how they think Kotone is "toooootally different from 'Kris'". As for the blue hair thing: Blue hair is no longer relevant (since blue = signature color for Crystal version), thus they changed it to brown. And wasn't it mentioned somewhere between this and Kotone's talk page that prototype designs for "Kris" had her with brown hair anyways? As for you not seeing the similarities: You seriously can't see both girls have a red shirt, have some form of shorts and have white/red as prominent colors in their outfit? Huh, guess I must be going even more blind. --[[User:NyaChan|NyaChan]] 23:00, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::Okay, so there's some similarities in color, but I wouldn't sya enough to support it. And Kris only ever had brown hair in the manga, if I remember right. But back to the point I was making: Confirmation in the manga does not equal confirmation in the games. And until someone at GameFreak comes out and says "Lyra and Kris are the same", then I don't believe they should be merged. [[User:Reign|Reign]] 23:07, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::And it '''does''' harm to merge the two, because what if it turns out they /are/ separate characters? Then you have to unmerge them. Whereas leaving them unmerged only to learn of sure they are the same person...less work and not guess work (because wouldn't it be silly if we were right the first time, and wrong the second, only to correct it?). There is no solid, indisputable proof she is or isn't meant to be Kris. We're not talking Crystal, we're not talking Marina; we're talking Kris, and game canon is game canon, and no manga or anime canon is going to have a same in what game canon is. Because we can argue this left and right, there's no standing why they should be merged. They should be treated as two different people until otherwise stated. [[User:ArcToraphim|Luna Tiger]] * [[User talk:ArcToraphim|the Arc Toraph]] 23:35, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::::Also, what exactly makes the Pokemon Adventures manga cannon? Because Satoshi Tajiri said "This is the comic that most resembles the world I was trying to convey."? He said that over 10 years ago. That doesn't mean everything in it is 100% cannon. '''[[User:Blake|Blake]]''' [[User talk:Blake#top|Talk]]·[[Special:Contributions/Blake|Edits]] 00:12, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::::"Game canon is not anime/manga canon". Yeah. Well then Kris ''never'' existed, nor did Leaf. Deletion time. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 00:51, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::No, it's "Anime/manga canon isn't game canon." Special says they are, anime says they aren't, and the games vouch for neither. What's the justification when the manga isn't proof? Because otherwise, Leaf would be Green, now wouldn't she? Since Special ''must'' be right. [[User:ArcToraphim|Luna Tiger]] * [[User talk:ArcToraphim|the Arc Toraph]] 01:04, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

There were only 2 reasons that Lyra wasn't Kris. One was because they had two separate anime counterparts. However, Crystal was the counterpart that they both shared. So both cancel each other out. Another reason is that they look vastly redesigned as opposed to Ethan and Silver. But Morty and Sabrina were also vastly redesigned as opposed to their fellow Gym Leaders. Kris/Lyra play the same role and have similar enough features. They're as about as recognizable to each other as RGBY!Red is to FRLG!Red. [[User:Pocketfanmk|Pocketfanmk]] 02:55, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
:The "similar features" being gender and hairstyle...
:The difference between Lyra and the Red or Gym Leaders is there is absolutely no doubt the Gym Leaders and Red are meant to be who they are. The games pretty clearly state it. But the only evidence that Kris and Lyra are the same is in the manga, and the manga one isn't the same characters as the game ones. Whereas game-wise it doesn't say anything either way. And to coutner the manga, the anime has them as two distinct people.
:Until someone at GF comes out and says "Lyra is Kris", then the merge should nt tbe done.[[User:Reign|Reign]] 03:09, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

::Sorry if anyone was offended by my "loony" comment. Wasn't aimed at anyone specific, mind you. Gotta remain in good standing so I don't end up the second sysop ever to end up on probation, despite all this fire getting tossed around...

::Anyway, what's keeping said Game Freak staffer from explicitly saying Gold is not Ethan? Maybe we ought to get wind of this argument over to Game Freak's ears, then we'll probably get something...--[[User:Shiningpikablu252|Shiningpikablu252]] 03:20, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

::What do you mean there is no other evidence? They play the same role: the Johto female protagonist. Other Crystal elements were retained; why wouldn't she be retained too? Plus, if she was really a new character, wouldn't she have been advertised as such when her artwork first surfaced?
:::Let's also keep this in mind. They renamed the Tin Tower, added two routes and a Safari Zone, changed Kanto's into Pal Park... What's so strange about renaming a girl who had a version-name (Kris, from Crystal) in Gen II a normal name in Gen IV? Ethan did it. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 09:03, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
::::Nothing, if there was more than a single manga series saying it. I'm not saying Lyra couldn't be Kris, but unless it's actually confirmed for the game character, I don't believe they should be merged. Isn't that Bulbapedia's policy anyway? Don't add it unitl we're 100%, and as far as the game versions of these characters go we ''aren't''. [[User:Reign|Reign]] 09:57, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::Yes. Exactly. And this is also why I'm against any kind of voting about the matter. Because in this case voting will be merely a battle of opinions, not any officially confirmed stuff, which the policy tells us to follow. Having them in separate articles is simply safer. We don't insist that [[Brock (anime)]] is a separate character from [[Brock]], do we? As long as there's no official word about the identity of her in the games. It's currently a draw between the anime and PokeSpe. And draw isn't deciding. I know, TTE, that you want this to be moved desperately but what's the sense of Bulbapedia's existence when it becomes an admin's personal playground of his crazy theories about fandom, instead of a reliable source of information? "Why couldn't rename and redesign her, if they did X, Y, Z before" isn't a reason. "Why not" is never a reason. As long as we don't get any more official "hints" about the matter, then we can talk about the change. As for now, we should leave everything as-is. Also, if we state that Kris MAY be an old version of Lyra (as she is in PokeSpe) clearly on the main head of the article, no one should really get offended. Bulbapedia isn't a place where heated battles of opinions should happen (especially when started by admins). Let's try to be objective and chill the hell out. --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] 12:02, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::Maxim, I totally 100% agree with you. We should keep the articles separate until ''official'' sources say so (keyword = official). Bulbapedia is all about true informomation, unlike the Pokemon wiki, who last time I visited, said that there was a over 200 new Pokemon, and an article on each one. Reason why I came here, it had true stuff about Pokemon! It got rid of all 'fan speculation' and all that crap that was out there. I understand that TTE is an admin and all, but to me, he's a regular person right now. If we merge the article of Krys and Lyra, then we'll turn into Pokemon wiki. Honestly, I don't want that to happen. [[User:Littlmiget123|Littlmiget123]] 12:14, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
:What, are you kidding me? All you guys are just whiners that HGSS isn't exactly the same game as GSC. ''Wah they moved Suicune'', ''wah Bell Tower'', ''wah Johto dex'', ''wah Lyra's not Kris''. If Lyra is not Kris, then Leaf is not based on the unreleased Gen I girl. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 18:32, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
::We aren't whining, so stop acting silly. The difference is, Kris was a real character. Green/pre-leaf was just a few pieces of art. '''[[User:Blake|Blake]]''' [[User talk:Blake#top|Talk]]·[[Special:Contributions/Blake|Edits]] 18:47, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
:::I could care less about HG/SS. That's not what this discussion is about. It's about keeping characters separate. And I dunno about you, but I've never seen any pics with Green's face? Just her back with Blastoise on R/B/G. For all we know, her face could have looked like a wooly mammoth, but that's beside the point. I would say something, but it's not my right to say it. [[User:Littlmiget123|Littlmiget123]] 19:17, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
::::I'm not whining, I'm saying we follow Bulbapedia's policy. You know, don't add until we're absolutely, no-doubt certain. And the thing is, as far as the game versions of these characters go, we aren't. I thought an admin of all people would be trying to enforce this policy, TTE, not directly go against it. [[User:Reign|Reign]] 19:19, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::You know what, TTE? You just revealed your true colors. You just showed everyone that you're a whiner who wants everything on Bulbapedia to be as he wants. All that I used in this discussion were rational reasons. So did most people who agreed with me. And then, when a discussion seemed to shape up and a bud of a reasonable consensus was forming, you just came in baaaawing and whining and accusing OTHER PEOPLE of whining. It was miserable, man. What you just did is funny and sad at the same time. Go on, TTE. Merge the pages. You can even ban me if you want. You just want to merge the pages so there's nothing we can do. But why did you even start the discussion if you just wanted to merge the pages uncompromisingly from the start? I'm disappointed at you, TTE. I'm disappointed on Bulbapedia. I might have been whining about HGSS in the past, sure. But for this matter, you are the only whiner that I can see around. --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] 19:40, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::W-wait a minute! Let's keep this civilized, people, please? This is a discussion, we don't need to be name calling. Although I am slightly confused at why TTE would abandon his own rules like this, there is still no need for name calling! [[User:Littlmiget123|Littlmiget123]] 19:47, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::::Okay. But how can I treat a person whose only reason is "You're all just stupid whiners, so you must all STFU" in the middle of a sensible discussion? It's a blatant proof that someone has no true reasons. And I think it should be also the end of this comedy. I just said how I see TTE's last activity in this talk. And I tried to do this calmly and clearly at the same time. I didn't mean for any "name-calling", I just wanted to make him get rid of the whiny emotions that restrain his mind. --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] 19:53, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

:To lighten the mood a bit, what's this about Betagirl looking like a woolly mammoth?
:http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3330177/woollymammoth.png
:[[User:Umeko|梅子]][[User talk:Umeko|❀]][[Special:Contributions/Umeko|✿]] 19:49, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
::Lmao! Umeko, you are now my most favorite person. Lol, that's so funny! At least now I know where to go if I'm down. Would you mind if I asked you to send that to me by my e-mail? {{unsigned|Littlmiget123}}
:::Haha, it was my pleasure. :3 Not sure why you need it sent by email, if you want to save it you can just right-click→save as...
:::And to actually contribute something to the conversation here, I don't think the two should be merged. Kris was at least notable in that she was the very first female PC implemented into the game, if nothing else. :/ [[User:Umeko|梅子]][[User talk:Umeko|❀]][[Special:Contributions/Umeko|✿]] 20:00, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
::::Lol, I'm still laughing about that. I started crying I was laughing so hard. You made me forget to sign XP. Oh, okay then. I saved it, that's so awesome! And that's true about the first playable female character. You can't really put that on a page called 'Lyra'? I don't know this discussion is getting ridiculous. Plus, the bottom section proves that this was just a bunch of baloney. [[User:Littlmiget123|Littlmiget123]] 20:06, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

== Word from Game Freak about Kris and Lyra's identity problem ==

Regarding the identity debate that has resurfaced in light of the latest manga development, I believe that Game Freak may not have been so vague, after all. According to the bottom of this page [[http://outdoor.geocities.jp/twnfh640/pokemon2.ds.html]], [[Takao Unno]] (HeartGold and SoulSilver's art director) was quoted in a Nintendo Dream interview as saying that "Lyra is a new character that was not designed with the female player character from Pokémon Crystal in mind". I've been aware of this page for some time now, but I've refrained from mentioning it until now since it also claims that some (possibly the same) interview clarified that the programmers of Pokéwalker did not recognize its resemblance to the Pocket Pikachu pedometer. This claim is refuted by the famous "Iwata Asks" interview [[http://www.nintendo.co.uk/NOE/en_GB/news/iwata/iwata_asks_-_pokmon_heartgold_version__soulsilver_version_16288_16289.html], where Ishihara states that the Pokéwalker is the successor to Pocket Pikachu (it was Nintendo and Creatures that had forgotten about Pocket Pikachu when they developed a pedometer game called Activity Meter).

That said, I'm inclined to take the quote about Kris and Lyra at face value, but I don't want to see it misused until we can verify the source (which I believe is the Nintendo Dream issue released in last September). It does make one wonder what Ken Sugimori's role in all of this was; is it possible that Lyra's illustration was drawn by Takao Unno instead? -[[User:Unown Lord|Unown Lord]] 20:01, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
:Amen! --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] 20:05, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
::And I hope that's the end of that.[[User:Reign|Reign]] 20:08, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
:::I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship. --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] 20:10, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
::::I want fellow members to help me find that interview, as opposed to patting themselves on the back for (probably) being right. -[[User:Unown Lord|Unown Lord]] 20:18, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::Thank you very much, Unown Lord. You just saved us about 2 more days worth of fighting. I'd read the article, but I can't read japanese XD [[User:Littlmiget123|Littlmiget123]] 20:21, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::[http://pokemon-memo.com/tag/unno-takao/ 1]. Another source stating the interview. As far as I can read and make something out of electronical translations, it seems like "The Female Protagonist of HeartGold/SoulSilver was created from scratch, without the consciousness of Crystal Female". Though, I'd like someone who can understand Japanese better than me to confirm it. But I feel the sweet smell of an ending... --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] 21:00, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::::"According to Unno Takao-shi, the female protagonist of HeartGold/SoulSilver was designed from scratch, without taking mind of the female protagonist from Crystal," pretty much.
:::::::The article also says that the male and female protagonists for HGSS were not designed by Sugimori as all previous ones have been, but by Unno under Sugimori's supervision. [[User:Umeko|梅子]][[User talk:Umeko|❀]][[Special:Contributions/Umeko|✿]] 22:53, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::::So that's that, then? It's just a matter of finding where this interview came from, which shouldn't be too hard it can't be that o;ld. [[User:Reign|Reign]] 23:15, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::The second article says that the interview is from the November 2009 issue of Nintendo Dream, which was released in September around the remakes' release (I don't know why the magazine's naming system is two months ahead). -[[User:Unown Lord|Unown Lord]]
:::::::::...still doesn't explain Lyra having such short shorts, but it does explain Dawn. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 02:44, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::I think that the far more pertinent question is why Sugimori agreed to Lyra being designed from scratch and his own character, Kris, not being carried over to the remakes. That Kris was not playable in Gold and Silver is merely an excuse, and the quote doesn't say that directly. -[[User:Unown Lord|Unown Lord]] 05:38, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
So now that this has been settled, should we remove the merger templates from this and Lyra's pages? [[User:Reign|Reign]] 07:50, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
:Jeez, I don't look at my watchlist in a couple of days and -bam-, all this occurs. Looking at the two sources posted, it does seem as if they specifically say that Lyra was designed from scratch and is not the same as Kris. So merging the two articles would be pretty pointless.
:Also, TTE, you've just proven to all of us that you pretty much don't give two shits about sticking to rules, guidelines and the like, and instead want everything to be your way. First your wild reasoning of "hey, PokéSpecial did it like this, so let's apply the manga to the entire canon!", when everyone knows Special is completely separate to everything else; and secondly, your selfish edit protecting of this page for a month just so no-one would remove the merge template. That's just damn childish. You really shouldn't abuse your position as a 'pedia admin like that. You've done it enough in other places over the past few months just to get your way... '''[[User:TheChrisD|TheChrisD]]''' [[User_talk:TheChrisD|Rants]]•[[Special:Contributions/TheChrisD|Edits]] 12:45, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
::I protected the page so that no one, mid-argument, could come in and say "NUH UH LYERS NOT CHRIS". I figured we'd not reach consensus this early. And considering the fact that Adventures is ''based on the games'' and the previous remakes' female protagonist's clothing was used by the third-version-named girl in Adventures... yeah, it was possible that we had been wrong to make Lyra and Kris separate pages. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 00:27, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

== Don't believe that guy ==

Since I'm banned from Bulbagarden (by the way, dear admins, isn't it the time to lift that undeserved and insane ban from me? I've been away from Bulbagarden just long enough to atone for my "crime") and I can't answer there, the only thing that I can do is protect Bulbapedia from further harm that some random guy on Bulbagarden Forums may do. [http://bmgf.bulbagarden.net/showpost.php?p=1593797&postcount=69 In this post on Bulbagarden Forums] one guy (random and seemingly inexperienced) tries to convince people that what Unno says is supposed to prove the otherwise of our consensus. This is, that Kris and Lyra are same characters. However, his "translation" (allegedly done by his "Japanese-fluent girlfriend") is nothing more than a misinterpretation. It's a wishful interpretation of someone who can't admit that the two aren't same and one characters. First, he cites the "crucial" sentence totally out of context, obscuring its meaning. Unno doesn't says anything about "redesign". What Unno really says that Crystal female character and HGSS female character were designed independently. 意識 means "consciousness" or "senses" (not "concern"), I've checked that in multiple dictionaries. There's no way that the word could be misinterpreted. Also, the particle せず means "without". So, do the maths. Also, he completely ignored the word 新規, which means "new" or "original". Unno used this word in relation to Lyra, very obviously. He also completely ignored what Unno said about Ethan. It's very easy to obscure the intended meaning of out-of-context sentence in a foreign language. And this guy seems to be a master at this. But don't believe him. All he's doing is setting an additional, illegal hurdle on the last metre of our long way to consensus. There are always stubborn people who can't admit the truth and argue with the facts. Some people simply can't understand that the Earth isn't flat and even taking them into space won't convince them. So, for your own sanity and the sanity of Bulbapedia, ignore this guy. He's not a person to be believed. --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] 19:05, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
:Oh lord, is this really not done yet? That guy's just grasping at straws now. [[User:Reign|Reign]] 19:13, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
::We have ended this. Just because the manga says they are the same, doesn't mean they are. They don't even look that similar. I don't see any resemblance at all, other then they have pigtails sticking out the sides, and they both have shorts instead of skirts. [[May (game)|May]] has hair coming out the sides, and wears shorts. Does that mean she is Kris also? Just because Kris and Lyra have the same roles, doesn't mean they are the same person. The manga just didn't want to go through the trouble of making a new character for the HGSS volumes. '''[[User:Blake|Blake]]''' [[User talk:Blake#top|Talk]]·[[Special:Contributions/Blake|Edits]] 20:45, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
:::You don't need to keep restating that, Blake. The interview already confirmed they're seperate, the guy on the forums is making up translations that don't exist. [[User:Reign|Reign]] 22:18, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

== Her name. ==

No, this isn't about her and Lyra. Though I do think they're one in the same..Anyway, isn't "Kris" just a nickname or shortening of her name, Crystal? Is that note-worthy? Or is her name literally "Kris"? There really hasn't been anything on her name other then the english Crystal manuals and box art, which listed her as "Kris". [[User:Lovely Rose|Lovely Rose]] 20:03, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
:I think it is the default name. Plus, it is the first choice. '''[[User:Blake|Blake]]''' [[User talk:Blake#top|Talk]]·[[Special:Contributions/Blake|Edits]] 22:09, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
::I believe the "Kris/Crys is short for Crystal" only appears in the Pokémon Adventures manga (which does NOT consitute game canon, on the record...) --[[User:Zesty Cactus|'''Zesty''']][[User talk:Zesty Cactus|'''Cactus''']] 02:43, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
:::She's called it in "Golden Boys" too. Then again, that manga calls Silver "Black". So I'm guessing "Kris" is simply a reference to "Crystal" rather then a nickname. [[User:Lovely Rose|Lovely Rose]] 17:21, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

== The anime is no longer credible concerning Kris/Lyra's identity ==

Ethan got a new counterpart in the 13th movie despite Jimmy already being Gold's counterpart. This proves that the anime isn't above recreating existing characters, unless you want to argue that Gold and Ethan aren't the same person either. Of course, this doesn't prove Kris being Lyra, but between the anime's loss of credibility and the article about Lyra's design having questionable credibility as well, the whole "Kris isn't Lyra" argument isn't solid either. {{unsigned|Legendary Rotom}}

== Kris originally in HGSS ==

My friend had tried to hack into the HeartGold ROM and he found some old files for the PokeGear, which proves that Kris was originally going to appears in HGSS. http://i46.tinypic.com/29apf86.png

Thought it would be nice to include in trivia. [[User:Mattii|Mattii]] ([[User talk:Mattii|talk]]) 16:18, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

== STADIUM 2 Portrait? ==

I saw that there was one above, If there is one someone should try to get it because it would be an awesome addition to BP. Anyone think they can do it? {{unsigned|AnimeMagic}}

== Missing Overworld Sprites ==

It seems there is only one Overworld sprite for Kris which is when she is facing forwards. Are the side and upward facing sprites generic or just missing? There also don't appear to be any sprites for Kris in HG or SS. {{unsigned|Pokepro97}}
:Why would we need images of overworld kris facing left, right or up? it's unnecessary. Kris wasn't in HGSS, so naturally she wouldn't have overworld sprites from those games.--[[User:Force Fire|'''F'''orce]][[User talk:Force Fire|'''F'''ire]] 08:48, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
::Because she is in Generation II and people use the sprites to identify them. If I saw the sideways sprites, I might actually recogise if I remember her ingame or not and whether I am on the right page or not. {{unsigned|Pokepro97}}
:::How do you not know if the player character is in the game? [[User:Glik|glik]][[User talk:Glik|glak]] 02:07, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
::::So... people won't recognize the sprite of Kris facing the screen? And there are plenty of images on this [age to make you realize that you're on the right page.--[[User:Force Fire|'''F'''orce]][[User talk:Force Fire|'''F'''ire]] 03:28, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
:::::More than one picture helps. Overall, they are images from the game and there is no harm in having them on there, even if just a link to the archives to make the article complete. [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 05:24, 17 April 2014 (UTC).

== {{template|unknown name}}? ==

Why is it that Kris has this template at the top of her page when all other player characters are considered to have their default name as their "official name"? [[User:Schiffy|Schiffy (瀬藤健二)]] ([[User talk:Schiffy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Schiffy|Contribs]]) 17:18, 4/6/2014 (UTC)
:Most of the other characters are either in the as a rival character, which only uses one name (the player characters in RSE/DPPt/HGSS/BW/BW2/XY), from internal data (Leaf), or they show up in other games (Red and Blue). Kris' name isn't used in anything besides on box art. --[[User:Funktastic~!|'''It's''' '''Funktastic~!''']][[User talk:Funktastic~!|''話してください'']] 17:32, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
::How is that ''not'' official? That's the closest '''any''' core series player character has to an official name, even if it is only on the English releases. Everybody's chomping at the bit to change things to "official" names that're only words used to refer to things ''without'' naming them (base stats/EVs), how is something that explicitly shows us the company named her something considered "not official"? [[User:Glik|glik]][[User talk:Glik|glak]] 17:54, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
:::I actually get what Funk is saying. Kris, Leaf, and Silver only ever use a player-chosen name in all their appearances (even Hilbert and Hilda show up with those names in the Subway). Because of this, they have no "official" name as an NPC, the most we really have is the first option on the list if there even is one. [[User:Schiffy|Schiffy (瀬藤健二)]] ([[User talk:Schiffy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Schiffy|Contribs]]) 17:58, 4/6/2014 (UTC)
::::I understand it too, but that doesn't change the fact that she was given a name by somebody in charge of the game in some form. [[User:Glik|glik]][[User talk:Glik|glak]] 18:30, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Waterfall (move)

2014-04-15T01:31:37Z

Pokepro97: /* Special in Generation III */

I'd think Rayquaza gets the strongest Waterfall, because of the 150 Attack (higher than 125, for sure), but that's just me. :P [[User:TinaTheKirlia|Tina]][[User talk:TinaTheKirlia|The]][[Kirlia (Pokémon)|Kirlia]] ♥ 18:07, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

...Waterfall is different from the other moves in that this one '''doesn't flinch'''... [[User:Ht14|ht14]] 01:32, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

If you traded a Gen 1 to Gen 2 game, would it be allowed as it knows waterfall? Becuase it wasnt a HM them turned into one.--[[User:David aipom|Davidaipom]] 15:22, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

: Waterfall exists in both generations, so it doesn't matter if a Pokémon has Waterfall in Gen II and you want to trade it back to Gen I. The same is true of Bite, even though Bite became Dark type in Gen II. [[User:Yenreb|Yenreb]] 19:58, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

== Waterfall in HGSS ==
You do not need it to go back down a waterfall. {{unsigned|Atomic Boom22}}

Agreed. --[[User:Veggieman|veggieman]] [[User talk:Veggieman|(leave a message after the click?)]] 00:34, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

== Mewtwo? ==

Does Mewtwo learn Waterfall? This page says it does, but {{p|Mewtwo|this page}} says it doesn't. Which one is right? [[User:Missingno. Master|Missingno. Master]] wants YOU! [[User:Missingno. Master/The Order of the Glitch/Bulbapedia Branch|Join the Order of the Glitch!]] [[User talk: Missingno. Master|(my talk page)]] 19:19, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
:Mewtwo's article is correct, according to various other sources. — [[User talk:The dark lord trombonator|THE TROM]] — 20:08, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

== Move appearance in other generations section ==

I think we should remove the bad image tag from that section. Sure, the Generation I animation is blurry, but so are a lot of others – yet this is the first time I have seen the tag being used for this purpose. Since no one else saw an issue with the other move pages afflicted by blurry Generation I animations, why this?

I'll remove it if others agree, or otherwise add that tag to *all* other Generation I move pages with blurry images. Thoughts? '''[[User:Haxorus|Hax]][[User talk:Haxorus|or]][[Special:MyContributions/Haxorus|us]]''' 13:41, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
:I agree with you on this. The image looks fine to me.--[[User:Force Fire|'''F'''orce]][[User talk:Force Fire|'''F'''ire]] 13:54, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

== Trivia worthy? ==

I was thinking of putting something about how a few descriptions say something about Waterfall being fast, but it doesn't have an increased priority. Would that be Trivia worthy? [[User:Zarthga|Zarthga]] ([[User talk:Zarthga|talk]]) 08:26, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

== those moves aren't variations ==

With the exception of dark pulse none of those moves that are listed as variations are actually variations. dark pulse's secondary effect has a 20% chance while scald, lava plume etc have a 30% chance.[[User:0danmaster0|0danmaster0]] ([[User talk:0danmaster0|talk]]) 20:23, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

== Doesn't Alomomola get Waterfall too? ==

I was going over a list of which Water Pokemon didn't learn Waterfall, and as I went down the 'Dex comparing Pokemon, I noticed that Alomomola wasn't on the page for Waterfall. But I'm pretty sure it can learn the move. Just wanna check with someone else to verify before just adding it in. {{unsigned|Coronation}}
:Looks like there was an oversight. Added Alomomola. --[[User:Super goku|Super goku]] ([[User talk:Super goku|talk]]) 01:17, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

== Special in Generation III ==

Playing generation three, I noticed that an opponent using [[Light Screen]] (Doubles *Special Defence*) appeared to half the damage by waterfall. I have also noticed that my Gyarados which has a much higher Attack than Special Attack seems to do more damage with a similarly powered move to waterfall while he gets [[STAB]] from waterfall, yet waterfall is doing less damage in most cases. I have added this to the main page accordingly. [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 15:01, 14 April 2014 (UTC).
:Waterfall was special in Gen 3 and prior, as were all Water-type moves, since whether a move was physical or special was determined by type until Gen 4. Which moves were changed are already listed [[List of modified moves#Generation III to Generation IV 4|here]]. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|'''Miles''']] ([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|talk]]) 15:05, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
::The only move which is notable on this matter is {{m|Bite}}, being physical type in G1, special type in G2 and G3, and reclassified as physical move in G4. [[User:Eridanus|Eridanus]] ([[User talk:Eridanus|talk]]) 16:05, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
:::Okay, the fact I was unaware of this after a lot of time on this wiki shows it isn't very clearly mentioned, I'm sure its not under the article on Type, which it should be. Correct me if I'm wrong, [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 01:29, 15 April 2014 (UTC). Edit: Nevermind, it appears to be there. Sorry for that confusion, [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 01:31, 15 April 2014 (UTC).

Talk:Soft-Boiled (move)

2014-04-15T01:30:54Z

Pokepro97: /* Amount Healed Outside Battle */

==Espeon==

On Espeon's Gen III page, it says that it can learn Softboiled through FireRed, LeafGreen, and Emerald tutor. Is that true, or is it false?
Orcalapras 20:00, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
:Without trading, Espeon cannot be obtained in FR/LG, so I can't tell you about that. Emerald however I may be able to test for you, [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 01:22, 15 April 2014 (UTC).
::My bad, thought this was new, ignore reply to old comment, [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 01:24, 15 April 2014 (UTC).

== B2W2 animation ==

In B2/W2 the animation is different than in B/W. The egg's design is different, so this needs to be updated. '''[[User:Hfc2x|hfc]][[User talk:Hfc2x|2X]]''' 20:00, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

== Trivia confirmation ==

"In Generation III, if this move is used immediately after Brick Break, the egg that appears will be transparent rather than solid. This doesn't affect the execution of the move, however." Can someone upload a video onto YouTube or an image from the Archives to confirm this? [[User:Ht14|'''''ht''''']][[User talk:Ht14|''14'']] 04:38, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

== Amount Healed Outside Battle ==

There appears to be no information on the amounts healed and HP lost outside battle. Off brief testing in Gen 3 Kanto, it appears that the user loses about an eighth of their health to heal the number of hit points of an ally's health. Confirmation needed, thanks [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 01:03, 14 April 2014 (UTC).

Edited. [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 01:30, 15 April 2014 (UTC).

Talk:Waterfall (move)

2014-04-15T01:29:03Z

Pokepro97: /* Special in Generation III */

Talk:Rollout (move)

2014-04-15T01:27:05Z

Pokepro97: /* Base Power After x Moves */

== Defense Curl ==
So if a Pokémon uses Defense curl then rollout, on the fifth turn the attack will have a base power of 960? That seems kinda high. [[User:Derian|Derian]] 18:55, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

:I was wondering about this too. Even without defense curl, the 5th turn has a power of 480. That seems a bit ridiculous. --[[User:Legollama|Legollama]] 20:26, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

::According to [http://pokemondb.net/pokebase/58536/baton-passing-a-defence-curl-to-a-pokemon-with-rollout a question and answer on PokeBase], the rollout-boosting effect of defense curl is not baton passed, so apparently not. The answer doesn't include any details on how they performed the test, but I'm guessing based on the date that it was most likely in a 5th gen game. [[User:Grumbledwarfskin|Grumbledwarfskin]] ([[User talk:Grumbledwarfskin|talk]]) 01:02, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

== Baton Pass ==

If Defense Curl is used and Baton Pass is used, the effect of Rollout is still enhanced, yes? [[User:Ht14|'''''ht''''']][[User talk:Ht14|''14'']] 22:23, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

== Base Power After x Moves ==

This page seems a bit underlooked. There have already been several discussions about the power of rollout after x moves. The behaviour shown on the page seems wildly unlikely.

Here is some data without defense curl after a certain number of moves as the page says (x2 starting from 30):
* 1 - 30
* 2 - 60
* 3 - 120
* 4 - 240
* 5 - 480

Here is some data with defense curl after a certain number of moves as the page says (x2 starting from 60):
* 1 - 60
* 2 - 120
* 3 - 240
* 4 - 480
* 5 - 960

My theory: the page is wrong and the power doesn't double each successful hit, it adds 30 to the power each successful hit.

With my theory without defense curl [y = 30x + 30]:
* 1 - 30
* 2 - 60
* 3 - 90
* 4 - 120
* 5 - 150

With my theory with defense curl [y=30x+2x30, or y = 30x + 60]:
* 1 - 60
* 2 - 90
* 3 - 120
* 4 - 150
* 5 - 180

With my theory with defense curl [y=2(30+30x), or y = 60x + 60]:
* 1 - 60
* 2 - 90
* 3 - 180
* 4 - 240
* 5 - 300

With the BEDMAS I used above, I realised that the page doesn't state whether the base power or the total power is doubled (which is irrelevant in the clearly wrong information on the page).

Let's compare how balanced the power of the fifth successful strike is. First we should look at the probability of getting this far to show the relevance the figure. For this we will exclude any variables that will stop the strikes from being unsuccessful other than their base power (such as a protect move, disable, forced switchout, fainting, running out of pokemon etc.). The probability of all of the previous and the fifth strike hitting is 0.9^5 = 0.59049. Multiplying the accuracy probability with the final strike's power gives the average power. This shows that the page's incorrect data still does the whooping average power of 566.8704 and 265.7205 with and without defense curl first respectively. This is more than [[Explosion]] which is one of the most powerful moves because it requires sacrificing yourself. Other than slightly low accuracy, rollout has no disadvantages, not even recoil. Alternately, with the averages from the final results from my more likely formulae, without defense curl gives 88.5735 and with my two different formulae for with defense curl give 106.2882 (underpowered) and 177.147 (balanced).

In conclusion, the main page is wrong in terms of power accumulation for [[Rollout_(move)]] and instead of double in power each successful strike starting from 30, the power goes up by 30 each successful strike (y = 30x). Using [[Defense_Curl]] before rollout most likely doubles the base power (y = 60x) as increasing each strike by 30 would not be worth it (just use rollout once more after it finishes). If anyone disagrees with this conclusion, they will need to show evidence in favour of the main page's theory, as this is is more conclusive than the page which has no source. Thanks [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 23:31, 13 April 2014 (UTC).

I'm worried nobody will see this and it will rot with the page continuing to be wrong, so if there is no response tomorrow, I will fix the page and hopefully that'll get someone's attention. Thanks [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 16:59, 13 April 2014 (UTC).
:I don't fully understand everything you're trying to say above, but it sounds like you're just guessing. Editing a page on a mere theory, lacking any actual supporting facts, would not be appropriate. It shouldn't be ''that'' hard to test. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 20:52, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
:: Not guessing, writing an appropriate hypothesis, testing it in comparison with rough experimental data (past experience with rollout) and showing what is clearly incorrect.{{unsigned|Pokepro97}}
:::I don't see any "experimental data". I don't even see you mentioning any "past experience" with Rollout. All I see is you saying, "According to the page currently, Rollout is more powerful than I consider plausible." That doesn't cut it; that's pure opinion. Until you can cite damage numbers supporting your theory over the page's current theory, it would be wrong for you to change it. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 00:16, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
::: Rough experimental data - past experience. I've used rollout a lot and it seems to increase in power in a linear fashion and not exponential. {{unsigned|Pokepro97}}
::::I had a suspicion that was your meaning. I also suspect these observations are not even recent; in particular, not at any time when you explicitly had this theory. If that's the case, they must be viewed with suspicion and you should attempt to observe it anew (on the exact same Pokemon with the exact same stats the whole time). In ''either'' case, though, it would still be much preferable if you could give definite damage numbers, so that anyone can check for themselves what sort of calculations they match up to. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 01:20, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
:::::Alright, I am unable to test that for myself, could anyone please do this for me? Thanks, [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 01:27, 15 April 2014 (UTC).

Talk:Snatch (move)

2014-04-15T01:25:55Z

Pokepro97: /* Rest */

[[User:Mikewolf|Mikewolf]] [[User:Mikewolf|Mikewolf]] 02:57, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
I don't like the picture for snatch (with liepard on it) because it doesn't show the actural animation of snacth.

== Targets for Snatch ==
I'm not sure if this changed since the game that I have done it on, but I've managed to use Snatch successfully with my own pokemon in Colosseum (they're all double battles). I had my Umbreon use Snatch, and then my Meganium used Synthesis, resulting in my Umbreon snatching the effects of Synthesis and using it on itself. I didn't realize that this was possible when it first occurred and since then, I was able to repeat it without fail. However, I do not have a DS, so I wouldn't be able to try it on the newer generations, and I'll admit that I never tried emulating the same effects on Pokemon Emerald. Can someone confirm that the targets for Snatch is only the opponent's pokemon and that a friendly pokemon's effects cannot be snatched? [[User:Samuikion|Samuikion]] 18:51, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

== Rest ==

Can Snatch steal the healing ability of [[Rest]]? Thanks [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 02:14, 14 April 2014 (UTC).
:Yes. [[User:Glik|glik]][[User talk:Glik|glak]] 02:26, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
:: Does it also steal the sleeping, or just the healing? Should this be added to the article as it is a healing ability with a secondary effect and they should be elaborated on.

Talk:Soft-Boiled (move)

2014-04-15T01:24:38Z

Pokepro97: /* Espeon */

==Espeon==

On Espeon's Gen III page, it says that it can learn Softboiled through FireRed, LeafGreen, and Emerald tutor. Is that true, or is it false?
Orcalapras 20:00, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
:Without trading, Espeon cannot be obtained in FR/LG, so I can't tell you about that. Emerald however I may be able to test for you, [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 01:22, 15 April 2014 (UTC).
::My bad, thought this was new, ignore reply to old comment, [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 01:24, 15 April 2014 (UTC).

== B2W2 animation ==

In B2/W2 the animation is different than in B/W. The egg's design is different, so this needs to be updated. '''[[User:Hfc2x|hfc]][[User talk:Hfc2x|2X]]''' 20:00, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

== Trivia confirmation ==

"In Generation III, if this move is used immediately after Brick Break, the egg that appears will be transparent rather than solid. This doesn't affect the execution of the move, however." Can someone upload a video onto YouTube or an image from the Archives to confirm this? [[User:Ht14|'''''ht''''']][[User talk:Ht14|''14'']] 04:38, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

== Amount Healed Outside Battle ==

There appears to be no information on the amounts healed and HP lost outside battle. Off brief testing in Gen 3 Kanto, it appears that the user loses about an eights of their health to heal about a quarter of an ally's health. Confirmation needed, thanks [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 01:03, 14 April 2014 (UTC).

Talk:Soft-Boiled (move)

2014-04-15T01:22:06Z

Pokepro97: /* Espeon */

==Espeon==

On Espeon's Gen III page, it says that it can learn Softboiled through FireRed, LeafGreen, and Emerald tutor. Is that true, or is it false?
Orcalapras 20:00, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
:Without trading, Espeon cannot be obtained in FR/LG, so I can't tell you about that. Emerald however I may be able to test for you, [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 01:22, 15 April 2014 (UTC).

== B2W2 animation ==

In B2/W2 the animation is different than in B/W. The egg's design is different, so this needs to be updated. '''[[User:Hfc2x|hfc]][[User talk:Hfc2x|2X]]''' 20:00, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

== Trivia confirmation ==

"In Generation III, if this move is used immediately after Brick Break, the egg that appears will be transparent rather than solid. This doesn't affect the execution of the move, however." Can someone upload a video onto YouTube or an image from the Archives to confirm this? [[User:Ht14|'''''ht''''']][[User talk:Ht14|''14'']] 04:38, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

== Amount Healed Outside Battle ==

There appears to be no information on the amounts healed and HP lost outside battle. Off brief testing in Gen 3 Kanto, it appears that the user loses about an eights of their health to heal about a quarter of an ally's health. Confirmation needed, thanks [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 01:03, 14 April 2014 (UTC).

Selphy

2014-04-15T01:20:21Z

Pokepro97: /* Rewards given */

'''Lady Selphy''' (Japanese: '''アキホ''' ''Akiho'') is a {{tc|Lady|rich girl}} who lives in a house in [[Resort Gorgeous]]. However, her house is empty when the {{player}} first arrives, and the player needs to find her in [[Lost Cave]] before doing anything else. After finding her, she will fight the player with her two {{p|Persian}}.

After her defeat, she returns to her house, where she and her butler '''Sebastian''' live. After that, she will ask the player to show her a specific species of Pokémon. If the player does, she gives an expensive item. However, if the player takes more than 250 before showing her the Pokémon, she will be disappointed and ask for a new Pokémon to see. She can ask for any Pokémon registered as seen or caught in the player's [[Pokédex]].

==Pokémon==
{{Party/Single
|color={{normal color}}
|headcolor={{normal color light}}
|bordercolor={{normal color dark}}
|sprite=Spr FRLG Lady.png
|prize={{PDollar}}9800
|class=Lady
|name={{color2|000|Selphy}}
|game=FRLG
|location=Lost Cave
|pokemon=2}}
|{{Pokémon/3
|game=FireRed
|ndex=053
|pokemon=Persian
|gender=male
|level=49
|type1=Normal
|ability=Limber
|held=Nugget
|move1=Taunt|move1type=Dark
|move2=Bite|move2type=Dark
|move3=Torment|move3type=Dark
|move4=Pay Day|move4type=Normal}}
|{{Pokémon/3
|game=FireRed
|ndex=053
|pokemon=Persian
|gender=male
|level=49
|type1=Normal
|ability=Limber
|held=Nugget
|move1=Taunt|move1type=Dark
|move2=Scratch|move2type=Normal
|move3=Torment|move3type=Dark
|move4=Pay Day|move4type=Normal}}
{{Party/Footer}}

==Rewards given==
{{itlisth|ocean}}
{{itemlist|Luxury Ball|Reward from [[Selphy]]|FR=yes|LG=yes|display={{ball|Luxury}}}}
{{itemlist|Nugget|Reward from [[Selphy]]|FR=yes|LG=yes|display={{DL|Valuable item|Nugget}}}}
{{itemlist|Pearl|Reward from [[Selphy]]|FR=yes|LG=yes|display={{DL|Valuable item|Pearl}}}}
{{itemlist|Big Pearl|Reward from [[Selphy]]|FR=yes|LG=yes|display={{DL|Valuable item|Big Pearl}}}}
{{itemlist|Stardust|Reward from [[Selphy]]|FR=yes|LG=yes|display={{DL|Valuable item|Stardust}}}}
{{itemlist|Star Piece|Reward from [[Selphy]]|FR=yes|LG=yes|display={{DL|Valuable item|Star Piece}}}}
{{itemlist|Rare Candy|Reward from [[Selphy]]|FR=yes|LG=yes|display={{DL|Vitamin|Rare Candy}}}}
{{itlistfoot|ocean}}

Note that there is no correlation between the Pokémon shown to Selphy and the reward given.

==Quotes==
'''[[Lost Cave]]'''
* Before battle
:''"W-what do you intend to do with me?"''

* Being defeated
:''"Oh...I was afraid that you meant to harm me."''

* After being defeated
:''"I am so glad that you happened here. I grew rather bored of walking, and I am feeling fatigued. May I ask you to take me home from here?"''

'''[[Resort Gorgeous]]'''
* Upon arrival
:''"Thank you. You may go now."''

* Upon talking to her in her home
:''"Oh? Do I know you from somewhere? Oh, but that doesn't matter. I am exquisitely bored. Please, hear my wish."''
:''"I wish to see a <sc>Pokémon</sc>. A darling <Pokémon>. I want to see one right away. Please, make my wish come true."''

* If the player takes too long
:''"Oh, I'm tired of this. I'm tired of waiting for you. I'll forgive you this time, but please don't fail me next time."''

* Upon returning with the specified Pokémon
:''"Oh, hello, there. Oh, my gracious. That must be the <Pokémon> you caught for me. Giggle... I see a resemblance to you. Thank you so kindly.''
:''... ... ... ... ... ... Is something the matter? You may leave.''
:''... ... ... ... ... ... Oh, fine. I understand now. <sc>Sebastian</sc>! I need you here this instant!"''

* Speaking to Sebastian
:''"See to it that this person is given a token of appreciation."''

==Sprites==
{| style="margin:auto; text-align:center; {{roundy|20px}} border: 2px solid #{{normal color dark}}; background: #{{normal color}}"
|-
| style="{{roundy|20px}} border: 2px solid #{{normal color dark}}; background: #{{normal color light}}; width:96px; height:96px"| [[File:Spr FRLG Lady.png]]
| style="{{roundy|20px}} border: 2px solid #{{normal color dark}}; background: #{{normal color light}}; width:96px; height:96px"| [[File:Selphy OD.png]]
|- style="font-size: 80%"
| Sprite from {{color2|000|Generation III}}
| Overworld sprite from {{color2|000|Generation III}}
|}

==Trivia==
* [[James]], [[Juan]], and {{adv|Platinum}} also have butlers named [[Sebastian]].

===Names===
{| class="roundy" style="background: #{{normal color light}}; border: 3px solid #{{normal color}}"
|-
! style="{{roundytl|5px}}" | Language
! Name
! style="{{roundytr|5px}}" | Origin
|- style="background:#FFF"
|Japanese
|お嬢様のアキホ ''O-jōsama Akiho''
|
|- style="background:#FFF"
|English
|Lady Selphy
|Similar to ''selfish''.
|- style="background:#FFF"
|French
|Themis
|
|- style="background:#FFF"
|German
|Kea
|
|- style="background:#FFF"
|Italian
|Noianna
|From ''noia'', boredom.
|- style="background:#FFF"
|Spanish
|Consu
|From ''consentida'', spoiled.
|}
{{-}}

{{NPC|sevii|kanto=yes}}
{{Project CharacterDex notice}}
[[Category:Game characters]]
[[Category:FireRed and LeafGreen characters]]
[[Category:Female characters]]

[[de:Lady Kea]]
[[it:Noianna]]
[[ja:アキホ]]
[[zh:秋穗]]

Talk:Selphy

2014-04-15T01:18:03Z

Pokepro97: /* Item rewards */

== Item rewards ==

I think we should try to get a list of the items and maybe an approximate probability. I doubt there is any correlation with the difficulty of the pokemon asked for and the reward, but that should be stated too.

Items known of so far:

* [[Poké_Ball#Luxury_Ball|Luxury Ball]]
* [[Valuable item#Big_Pearl|Big Pearl]]
* [[Valuable_item#Stardust|Stardust]]
* [[Valuable_item#Star_Piece|Star Piece]]

Thanks and please help with contributing [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 05:18, 13 April 2014 (UTC).
:We actually know all the items she can give. They were on the [[Resort Gorgeous]] page, but I've added them to Selphy's page too. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|'''Snorlax''']][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|'''Monster''']] 06:29, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
:: Awesome, thanks, [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 01:18, 15 April 2014 (UTC).

Talk:Kris (game)

2014-04-15T01:17:50Z

Pokepro97: /* Missing Overworld Sprites */

[[Image:Kris.png|thumb|right]]
Just a question, but where exactly is "Kris" the official spelling? "Crys" or "Crystal" make more sense to me, considering the names of the other heroes.--[[User:Biccy|Biccy]] 19:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
:It's in the list of available names. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]{{ani|155|Fire echy}}[[User:TTEchidna/GSDS|GSDS!]]''' 20:01, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

::Additionally, the back of the US [[Pokémon Crystal|Crystal]] box says in one area, "New female trainer '''Kris''' faces the {{p|Unown}}." If that and the screenshot are not confirmation enough, I don't know what is. --[[User:Shiningpikablu252|Shiningpikablu252]] 21:18, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
:::>>; It's been many a year since I looked at the box, but gotcha.--[[User:Biccy|Biccy]] 19:44, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

== Is this worth adding? ==

Is it worth adding? [[User:Takoto|~~Takoto]] - [[User_talk:Takoto|サソデイ]] 11:21, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
:Stretched, enlarged GBC overworld sprite? Think not... --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] 12:02, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
:Isn't it darker than usual? [[User:Tc26/Anime Predictions|tc]][[User:Tc26|²₆]][[User talk:Tc26|tc]][[User:Tc26/Sandbox|26]] 12:03, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
::Yes, and it's just an overworld sprite. I don't think it's worth adding. --'''[[Johto|☆]][[User:Alpha Totodile|A]][[User talk:Alpha Totodile|T]][[Special:Contributions/Alpha Totodile|♂]]''' 12:06, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
:::Ah sorry, I let my brother mess around on my account because he said he wanted to do some editing (but was too lazy to make his own). Sorry for the trouble. [[User:Takoto|~~Takoto]] - [[User_talk:Takoto|サソデイ]] 16:29, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

== MERGE TIIIIME ==

Yes or no. Soul is Kris. Merge it here? '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 19:28, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
:Source? - [[User:Pokéman|Pokéman]] 21:58, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
::Look at bulbanews. If you need a link, top of the news stuff on the main page. --[[Gallade|'''エ''']][[User:Galladeon|'''ルレ''']][[User talk:Galladeon|'''イ''''''ド''']] 21:59, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
:::How does that confirm that Soul is Kris? - [[User:Pokéman|Pokéman]] 22:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
::::Ask the Echidna. You ''do'' realize that he's the Editor-in-Chief, right? --[[Gallade|'''エ''']][[User:Galladeon|'''ルレ''']][[User talk:Galladeon|'''イ''''''ド''']] 22:05, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
:::::Yeah, but what does that have to do with this? - [[User:Pokéman|Pokéman]] 22:09, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
::::::No. Don't merge. One thing from Crystal does not mean everything from Crystal. --[[Tracey Sketchit|'''ケンジ''']][[User talk:Kenji-girl|'''の''']][[User:Kenji-girl|'''ガール''']] 22:21, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Seconded. - [[User:Pokéman|Pokéman]] 22:26, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
::::::::Let's just say hypothetically that she is Soul, but the game drops the name Kris but keeps Soul. Does that mean we start calling her Soul? --[[Tracey Sketchit|'''ケンジ''']][[User talk:Kenji-girl|'''の''']][[User:Kenji-girl|'''ガール''']] 22:43, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::Pretty much, yea. If there's no concrete evidence relating her to Kris, then she's a completely new character. '''[[User:TheChrisD|TheChrisD]]''' [[User_talk:TheChrisD|Rants]]•[[Special:Contributions/TheChrisD|Edits]] 14:45, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

== Do we know for sure? ==

The article's "Trivia" section clearly states that Kris "is ''not'' the female choice" in [[Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver Versions|HeartGold and SoulSilver]]. However, it is not clear whether she and Soul are the same character or not. In addition, all other articles with information pertaining to the subject are in [[King of Pokélantis|possession]] of far greater neutrality. I suggest that this text be changed to read "is ''believed'' not to be the female choice". I'd do it myself, but it seems that the article has been Protected, and therefore, only an Administrator can make the suggested change. Anyone agree with me? [[User:Glitchipedia|This message brought to you by Glitchipedia, the falsified encyclopedia]] 03:17, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

== Should we add? ==

Since some people don't know about Soul yet, can't there be a link to Soul(game) at the top?--[[User:The Bulb's Master|The Bulb's Master]] 01:06, 16 August 2009 (UTC) Master of Bulbasaur and Turtwig♀
:Why? It's at the bottom. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 03:45, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't see that! But shouldn't we put like: ''This is about the female hero of Crystal. If your'e looking for the female hero of HeartGold and SoulSilver, Please click here.''
--[[User:The Bulb's Master|The Bulb's Master is the Master of Bulbasaur, Turtwig, and, most reacently, Chikorita.]] 16:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Can't someone talk!?!--[[User:The Bulb's Master|The Bulb's Master is the Master of Bulbasaur, Turtwig♀, and most reacently, Chikorita♂]] 13:03, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

:I don't see the point in even having a separate article for the HG/SS design. It's the same storyline and they're both the female player character in it, so it makes more sense to put them into a single article regardless of whether they are the same character or not.[[User:Jeff|-Jeff]][[User talk:Jeff|(talk)]] 16:46, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

==Err==
I was going to add Kris' backsprite (KrisBack.png) to the article, not realizing the page was protected... could somebody do this for me or should I just wait until after HGSS come out? T_T [[User:Zesty Cactus|'''Zesty''''''Cactus''']] 04:55, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

==Kotone/Soul==
This should probably be updated to reflect Soul's real name (Kotone) and how she is definitely a new character/Kris' replacement/etc, I'd do it myself but the page is still protected. :P [[User:Zesty Cactus|'''Zesty''''''Cactus''']] 00:18, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
:I was just about to add a section about this myself. But seriously, Admin's you need to get on the ball when it comes to Relinking! I would do it myself as well, but; like Zesty said; It's protected. [[User talk: ShinyPikachu|Shiny]][[User:ShinyPikachu|'''Pika''']] 03:28, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

== Confirmation that Soul and Kris are separate chars ==

I just looked at Serebii and noticed that Soul is present in the preview pics for the next episode in Japan. When that episode airs, we should know for sure whether or not Soul and Kris are the same character, as we have seen Marina (Kris's anime counterpart) in the past. --[[Gallade|'''エ''']][[User:Galladeon|'''ルレ''']][[User talk:Galladeon|'''イ''''''ド''']] 21:26, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
:That's kinda... [[Kotone_(anime)|old news]]. D: also, her official name according to Pokémon Sunday is actually Kotone, not Soul. :P [[User:Zesty Cactus|'''Zesty''''''Cactus''']] 21:59, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

== Unblock the page ==

It's not like anything needs to be protected, what with Kotone's revelation and all. {{color|28E228|--[[User:Bulbafan|Bulbafan]] 00:12, 27 September 2009 (UTC) [[User talk:Bulbafan|My talk page]]}}

== The lookalike? ==

Is it a trainer class, NPC in Pokémon Stadium 2, it needs to be more specific.--'''[[User:Midnight Blue|Midnight]] [[User talk:Midnight Blue|''Blue'']]''' 01:04, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
:You're right. Does anyone have a pic of it? By the way MB, you did your sig twice... [[User:CuboneKing|Cu]][[User talk:CuboneKing|bo]][[Special:Contributions/CuboneKing|ne]][[Cubone (Pokémon)|King]] 01:05, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
::Oh I did?, I'm sorry, did not mean to. Anyways, can we trace back to whoever wrote it in and get more info? To see if there is a lookalike.--'''[[User:Midnight Blue|Midnight]] [[User talk:Midnight Blue|''Blue'']]''' 01:07, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
:::It was Zesty. [[User:CuboneKing|Cu]][[User talk:CuboneKing|bo]][[Special:Contributions/CuboneKing|ne]][[Cubone (Pokémon)|King]] 01:10, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
::::[[File:S2_Heroine.png]] This is the Stadium 2 girl when you use a Crystal game with Kris selected as the player character. Not very alike other than the hair... vaguely... →''[[User:Tina|'''T'''inā]]'' [[User talk:Tina|♫]][[Special:Contributions/Tina|δ]] 01:22, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
:::::That looks nothing like Kris. I'm removing the trivia. [[User:CuboneKing|Cu]][[User talk:CuboneKing|bo]][[Special:Contributions/CuboneKing|ne]][[Cubone (Pokémon)|King]] 01:24, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

::::::The only place I saw Kris's picture (i.e. an actual Kris picture) in Stadium 2 was in the credits against the rival. --[[User:Shiningpikablu252|Shiningpikablu252]] 03:08, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Can you provide a screen shot?--'''[[User:Midnight Blue|Midnight]] [[User talk:Midnight Blue|''Blue'']]''' 03:39, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
::::::::In retrospect she's more of a female Red lookalike than a Kris lookalike, but she still only appears if you're playing as Kris... so I reworded it as more of a side note. [[User:Zesty Cactus|'''Zesty''']][[User talk:Zesty Cactus|'''Cactus''']] 05:10, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::I'd say that she's more similar to Kotone. But it's just me. But she's as much Kris's "counterpart" as the player boy is both Red's and Gold's counterpart. Why don't we have them mentioned on their respective pages? However, the thing on her icon appearing in Stadium 2 credits is TOTALLY worth noting. I'll try to beat Silver and get the screenshot of credits. --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] 18:14, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

== Kris in Pokemon Stadium 2 ==

[[File:Kris PS2.png]]
This is the only thing I can do, if it's not good enough, then, is there a way to get it from the game? It's in the credits just to add.--'''[[User:Midnight Blue|Midnight]] [[User talk:Midnight Blue|''Blue'']]''' 02:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
:Do you have a way of taking screenshots? [[User:CuboneKing|Cu]][[User talk:CuboneKing|bo]][[Special:Contributions/CuboneKing|ne]][[Cubone (Pokémon)|King]] 02:03, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
::Well, i took that from my computer from a youtube video, and I cropped it just to show that she appears in the game. But, I have no other way to get a pic of her.--'''[[User:Midnight Blue|Midnight]] [[User talk:Midnight Blue|''Blue'']]''' 02:07, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
:::I can hopefully get a better screenshot, I just need to know where exactly in the game that image appears. Does it appear anywhere else in the game besides the credits? —♥ [[User:Jello|Jel]][[User Talk:Jello|lo]] 02:09, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
::::I'm not sure, i was watching the ending and just noticed her. If you can get a better pic, it would be nice. I might look at the ending again to see if there anything else useful.--'''[[User:Midnight Blue|Midnight]] [[User talk:Midnight Blue|''Blue'']]''' 02:11, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

:::::Well, I wouldn't recommend capturing off a Youtube video, but a Youtube video does make a good reference for time code references. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wba6WwOj5IM Try this video] around the 3:48 mark; bottom right of the battle scene, Kris's icon appears in her original {{v2|Crystal}} incarnation (for obvious reasons; odds are her {{2v2|HeartGold|SoulSilver}} redesign probably wasn't even on the drawing board yet), with the opposite corner having the [[Generation II]] [[Silver (game)|rival]]. It's the second-to-last such scene played in the credits (the last such scene, the one after Kris's appearance, has an interesting anime allusion involving {{ga|Blue}} and {{ga|Red}}). --[[User:Shiningpikablu252|Shiningpikablu252]] 02:27, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
::::::Kris appears there because... Stadium 2 was Generation II. Duh? That's like saying that Ash in his Kanto/Orange/Johto clothes in an old episode is because they hadn't thought of the Hoenn or Sinnoh outfits yet. It's... because that's what he wore. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 02:32, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

== Merger tiems ==

So {{adv|Crystal}} is dressed in Lyra's outfit in the HGSS chapter, just like how {{adv|Green}} was dressed as Leaf. Like the RGB girl who never made it in is Leaf, the GSC girl who never made it in until Crystal ''is'' Lyra. Lyra is Kris, and Ethan is Gold. Maxim, you can feel free to blow a gasket now, but the fact that she has two anime counterparts means nothing, because so does Red. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 06:14, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
: There is one difference here, there is early RGB game art that features Green, which proves that she was indeed a planned character in the RGB story. No such hints exist for Kris as far as I know (?), and since the games are the ultimate canon in the franchise, it would be more assuring to have concrete evidence from the game canon that Lyra is Kris. This could be a case like Adventure's confirmation that Giovanni was Silver's father, but as I recall, we didn't take that as 100% confirmed canon until we got confirmation via HGSS. [[User:Trainer-c|Trainer-c]] 06:36, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::I don't see why it would be impossible for them to be separate characters in the games, yet the same character in ''Adventures'' on the basis that the artists are lazy. Interested persons may also wish to see [[Talk: Lyra (game)]]. —'''darklord[[User talk:The dark lord trombonator|trom]]''' 06:50, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

is it just mere stupidity or a matter of unacceptability that people here cannot face the fact that lyra is indeed kris reasons:

:1) lyra is a vast design of kris which infact shown on how the manga artist of adventures doesn't use a color blue hair for kris but brown.
:2) kris is indeed a beta design for lyra because during that time the color scheme for lyra's hair was not available for gameboy color.
:3) how the f*** told you that this character's name is kris is it just fan name like how ethan was named gold before he was officially named.
:4) look at her clothes does it clearly resembles the one lyra was wearing even the hair style they just add a ribbon on her hat you didn't recognize her.
:5) and lastly she could have two anime counterpart like how ash and ritchie is based on red.
[[User:Badwolf1234|Badwolf1234]] 08:58, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Eh... I've seen that coming. There is one thing that makes me mad. That Ritchie is saw as Red's counterpart here. Ritchie is a counterpart of Ash, there's nothing in him that could be based directly on Red. His team is pretty much Ash's team, the clothes are even less similar to Red's ones than Ash's. Ash is the only real Red's countepart. Also, look at what Kusaka have done with the Team Rocket Executives. This makes his decision on Lyra/Kris even less reliable. We've got two contradicting ones. I don't see how we should trust Special but not the anime - I can see why people think that Special is better and conveys the game world much better than anime. But it's still not the same thing. We've got no proof on the game's side on who "Lyra" really is (or rather, who Kris really is). It's also annoying how so many people compare this situation to Blue/"Leaf". She was just a beta design for RGB. We don't even know if they really wanted to put her in the game. Kris, on the other side, was a FINAL thing. And she had her blue hair even in the artwork. It doesn't have anything to do with the GBC pallette. We should not judge the games by other canons, since if we ignore them, there is nothing that could confirm either scenario (aside from some fan-worked "patterns"). It's simply safer to consider them separate for the games. The "battle" between New-Lyra and Old-Lyra is now 1:1. It's a draw. And draw means, that we must not change anything. --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] 11:23, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

:Usually I sit back and mind my own buisness, but this time... I'll have to disagree with you TTE. Look, Lyra and Kris. Both got their own ''official'' names. Also, they have different looks. Very different. Two different anime counterparts as well, although you say that doesn't count. Pokemon Adventures does not matter, they just did that because they didn't have a name for Lyra. They can't name her after the recent games, because they are basically Gold and Silver. Also, what about in the Gold and Silver arc? With Chermaine and Keane. Does that mean we have to fuse their articles with Archer and Arianna? Maybe they just dropped Krys to add a new spin for HG/SS? Either way, I don't think that they are the same person. [[User:Littlmiget123|Littlmiget123]] 12:45, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::I kind of feel the same way about keeping the articles apart. Crystal winding up in Lyra's clothing isn't conclusive on the matter at all. I could say the reason it was done so was because the "versions" of HG and SS are already covered in {{adv|Gold}} and {{adv|Silver}} and so as to not create a protagonist that would fall out of the version name theme. It's one thing to create a character for a version, such as Emerald and Yellow, but to need to sort out a version issue for a new character? Better to go with the easy way out (by amalgamating the two), than having to wage war on what to call the new character that continues the theme (when there's no possible way to). [[User:ArcToraphim|Luna Tiger]] * [[User talk:ArcToraphim|the Arc Toraph]] 13:39, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:::I think the games and anime should stay apart still. [[Marina (Johto)]] and [[Lyra (anime)]] are completely different characters, and [[Kris (game)]] and [[Lyra (game)]] are completely different characters. Just because the manga was too lazy to make a new character doesn't mean anything. The manga is hardly official cannon, as stated above. While it does give good second opinions, it does not trump the games and anime. '''[[User:Blake|Blake]]''' [[User talk:Blake#top|Talk]]·[[Special:Contributions/Blake|Edits]] 13:57, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::::The anime doesn't trump the manga either. They're too different to compare. And since there's no proof between collaborative effort between anyone from GF and Kusaka, no one can use it as proof that he's doing what GF meant for it to be all along: that they are the same. Honestly though, if they meant for Lyra to be Kris, why is Ethan still retain the major traits of Hiro, but Lyra get nothing from Kris...except maybe her short-shorts and redecoed pigtails? [[User:ArcToraphim|Luna Tiger]] * [[User talk:ArcToraphim|the Arc Toraph]] 15:05, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::The anime appears on Pokemon.com. The manga doesn't. That sort of makes the anime more official then Adventures. Plus, really, if you look at both of them, they don't really look anything alike. Gold and Ethan look alike 5x more then Kris and Lyra do. '''[[User:Blake|Blake]]''' [[User talk:Blake#top|Talk]]·[[Special:Contributions/Blake|Edits]] 15:14, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::No manga appears on Pokemon.com that isn't based on the anime. Which is the point. They're an entirely different venture. [[User:ArcToraphim|Luna Tiger]] * [[User talk:ArcToraphim|the Arc Toraph]] 15:33, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::I think the only thing this proves is that a hypothetical "Adventures Lyra" does not exist, with Crystal taking the role on. Adventures also seems less apt to just go out and retcon things in the continuity, where, obviously, Gamefreak doesn't mind retconning various things in the games if the Johto Regional Pokédex means anything. And didn't Pokémon Sunday say that they were different characters, or is that a fandom myth?--[[User:Purimpopoie|Purimpopoie]] 16:23, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

:::::::Either it's a fandom myth, or Gold and Ethan are also different characters. Nobody in their right mind would think one was a redesign and the other is a replacement--the only reasons anyone would buy would either be "if Gold is Ethan then Kris is Lyra" or "if Kris is not Lyra then Gold is not Ethan". Nobody in their right mind would buy "Gold is Ethan but Kris is not Lyra"; it would also take a loony to claim that "Gold is not Ethan but Kris is Lyra". Do keep in mind that several Crystal elements made their way into the game as well; as far as I'm concerned, the female player character is one of them. --[[User:Shiningpikablu252|Shiningpikablu252]] 16:34, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::::No, it's entirely possible to think "Ethan = Gold but Lyra =/= Kris," because Kris and Lyra look nothing alike, compared to Ethan and Gold, who basically got his same clothing upgrade, and doesn't stray far ''at all'' from his original design. All the Crystal elements in the world do not prove one way or another that Lyra is, in fact, ''meant'' to be Kris (and it's only our opinion [at this point] if she is or isn't), on the principle that neither Silver nor Gold got so completely retcon'd in their 2.0 appearance. Also, if she was meant to be the epitome of Kris, why isn't she being treated like Kris? Why does Lyra exist as a separate entity from Ethan, when Kris and Hiro were interchangeable (akin to Red and Leaf)? [[User:ArcToraphim|Luna Tiger]] * [[User talk:ArcToraphim|the Arc Toraph]] 17:39, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::First off, let me say, Pikablu, that you shouldn't be going around and calling users insane or looney. That's just mean, and is technically cyber-bullying.
:::::::::Also, Luna Tiger is right. Gold ''is'' Ethan. Gold wasn't his official name and HG/SS gave him one. Obviously Gold and Ethan are the same person. Lyra and Marina (I call her Marina, so if you see Marina, I mean Krys) have a huge difference between each other. Like I said before, if you fuse Lyra and Marina, that'd be like fusing Chermaine with Arianna, even though they are two different characters. [[User:Littlmiget123|Littlmiget123]] 18:19, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::Wah, cyber-bullying. I see that... ''term'', to use the word loosely, I think instantly one of two things: user is not to be taken seriously, or user is a complete wimp. It's the internets, grow a thicker skin.
::::::::::As for Gold not being his official name... well look at the first dang page of the instruction book for Gold. Ta dah! Gold! And it's one N, dammit. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 21:13, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::I was just stating that for his sake, not for mine. Honestly, I could care less what people call me, but he's gotten in trouble for this before. And I'm sorry, but does it really matter how to spell it, though? You know who I'm talking about XD [[User:Littlmiget123|Littlmiget123]] 21:18, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::Just to point it out, the "official" naming of Kris as "Kris" was only on the US box from what I can tell. The back of the Japanese box (seen [http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/customer-media/product-gallery/B00005OVBL/ref=cm_ciu_pdp_images_1?ie=UTF8&index=1 here]) doesn't refer to her as "{{tt|クリス|Kris}}" at all, but as "{{tt|女の子の主人公|Girl Protagonist}}" (the full sentence includes Gold, who is merely called {{tt|男の子[の主人公]|Boy [Protagonist]}}, the "主人公" part implied by the use of the {{tt|と|and}} particle). However, I have no access to the manual to say it wasn't in there either. Either way, "Gold" became Hibiki/Ethan despite being referred to as "Gold" in the manual, and yet similar evidence is used to keep "Kris" separate from Kotone/Lyra? Kotone is not ''completely'' different from "Kris" as people are claiming, so I don't get why these characters with the same situation as Gold/Hibiki/Ethan are being kept separate. The only place these two are ''confirmed'' to be separate people is in the anime. --[[User:NyaChan|NyaChan]] 21:57, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
(reset indent) Mind if I butt in? I think that they gave Kris Lyra's clothes in Adventures because if they made a new character, what were they going to name her? "HeartGold" or "SoulSilver"? [[User:CuboneKing|Cu]][[User talk:CuboneKing|bo]][[Special:Contributions/CuboneKing|ne]][[Cubone (Pokémon)|King]] 22:02, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:Indent reset~
:Just because they're the same in the manga doesn't make them the same in the games. If this is "proof" they're the same, then Lyra in the anime is ''just as much'' proof that they're different. [[User:Reign|Reign]] 22:15, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::I'm pretty sure ハート/Heart or ソウル/Soul. It's not like the fandom didn't call her one of the two before her name was revealed. They gave Kris Kotone's clothes because she's ''supposed'' to be a redesign of Kris, not a new character. Her hair is a clear show of that. Yes, it's not blue nor does it have that wacky 90-degree bend, but can anyone really say it's ''completely'' different? After all, PokéSpe HGSS Kris looks like what a PokéSpe Kotone would probably look like, with slightly darker hair.
::But still, personally I don't like how Gold = Hibiki/Ethan when we can say he was called "Gold" in the manuals while Kris =/= Kotone/Lyra because her name was on the back of the box. They're similar situations, so I don't get why one merges and the other doesn't. And that has ''nothing'' to do with the anime/manga. :/ --[[User:NyaChan|NyaChan]] 22:19, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:::If they're meant to be the same, then why didn't the anime make them the same as well? Manga canon and game canon are seperate, and just because it's true in one does not mean it's true in the other. [[User:Reign|Reign]] 22:22, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::::As are game canon and anime canon. What I think the reasoning is for calling Kotone/Lyra by her game name rather than "Marina" is because of the game name = anime name that they seem to like doing these days. Also, "Marina" and "Jimmy" can be point to why "Kris" and "Gold" weren't real names for them, but I won't go into that. However, my second point still stands. Ignoring both anime and manga canon, Gold/Hibiki/Ethan was in similar situation as Kris/Kotone/Lyra. He was called "Gold" in the manual while she was called "Kris" on the back of the box. Why is one joined and the other not? --[[User:NyaChan|NyaChan]] 22:37, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::Because Gold and Ethan look almost exactly the same. If they meant for Gold and Ethan to be different, they would have given the male player a completely new design, which they didn't. However, Kris and Lyra look ''nothing'' alike. [[User:CuboneKing|Cu]][[User talk:CuboneKing|bo]][[Special:Contributions/CuboneKing|ne]][[Cubone (Pokémon)|King]] 22:41, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::I'm aware game and anime canon are seperate as well. The point with Ethan is he's pretty clearly Gold, his design hasn't changed much at all. Lyra, however, only has the hair to go by. It's never made clear in the games if they're the same, they are the same in the manga, and they're clearly different in the anime. Sooo I think we shouldn't assume either way and leave them seperate until someone at GameFreak pretty much outright says it. [[User:Reign|Reign]] 22:44, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::::You can't really say they are the same character because their hair looks alike. Their hair is not really similar at all. As you sated, I think Lyra in the anime and games is a whole different character. Just because Crystal dresses as Lyra, doesn't mean they are, in other cannon, the same character. Pokemon Adventures =/= official cannon for everything. It is written by a third party. '''[[User:Blake|Blake]]''' [[User talk:Blake#top|Talk]]·[[Special:Contributions/Blake|Edits]] 22:50, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::Urgh, I really hate this argument because it's really clear Kotone is just a vast redesign of Kris. Why does the fact she got a larger overhaul than Hibiki mean she's a new person. She's not. Kotone's design is ''clearly'' based off Kris, no matter how vastly redesigned. Seriously, why does this make her a brand new character. It's not just the hair, her outfit shares a similar color scheme, she still has the hoodie part, and her overalls have shorts rather than a skirt they could have opted for, and her shirt is red as well. I find it funny people were quick to call her a Mario clone, but fail to see the similarities to a character design ''in the same franchise''. --[[User:NyaChan|NyaChan]] 22:51, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:What harm is it to keep them separate, when official they have not been announced as the same character? It does not help anything to merge them. '''[[User:Blake|Blake]]''' [[User talk:Blake#top|Talk]]·[[Special:Contributions/Blake|Edits]] 22:53, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::I'm of the same opinion Blake's got. And NyaChan, believe me, I wanted Lyra ot be Kris when she was first revealed. But I'm not seeing any of those similarities you're listing at all beyond hair - and even then, the color is different. [[User:Reign|Reign]] 22:56, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:::I'm got the same opinion as you two. It's not officially announced, and there are hardly any similarities. [[User:CuboneKing|Cu]][[User talk:CuboneKing|bo]][[Special:Contributions/CuboneKing|ne]][[Cubone (Pokémon)|King]] 22:59, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::::Nor does it harm to merge it. =3= The only problem I see is people will whine about how they think Kotone is "toooootally different from 'Kris'". As for the blue hair thing: Blue hair is no longer relevant (since blue = signature color for Crystal version), thus they changed it to brown. And wasn't it mentioned somewhere between this and Kotone's talk page that prototype designs for "Kris" had her with brown hair anyways? As for you not seeing the similarities: You seriously can't see both girls have a red shirt, have some form of shorts and have white/red as prominent colors in their outfit? Huh, guess I must be going even more blind. --[[User:NyaChan|NyaChan]] 23:00, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::Okay, so there's some similarities in color, but I wouldn't sya enough to support it. And Kris only ever had brown hair in the manga, if I remember right. But back to the point I was making: Confirmation in the manga does not equal confirmation in the games. And until someone at GameFreak comes out and says "Lyra and Kris are the same", then I don't believe they should be merged. [[User:Reign|Reign]] 23:07, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::And it '''does''' harm to merge the two, because what if it turns out they /are/ separate characters? Then you have to unmerge them. Whereas leaving them unmerged only to learn of sure they are the same person...less work and not guess work (because wouldn't it be silly if we were right the first time, and wrong the second, only to correct it?). There is no solid, indisputable proof she is or isn't meant to be Kris. We're not talking Crystal, we're not talking Marina; we're talking Kris, and game canon is game canon, and no manga or anime canon is going to have a same in what game canon is. Because we can argue this left and right, there's no standing why they should be merged. They should be treated as two different people until otherwise stated. [[User:ArcToraphim|Luna Tiger]] * [[User talk:ArcToraphim|the Arc Toraph]] 23:35, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::::Also, what exactly makes the Pokemon Adventures manga cannon? Because Satoshi Tajiri said "This is the comic that most resembles the world I was trying to convey."? He said that over 10 years ago. That doesn't mean everything in it is 100% cannon. '''[[User:Blake|Blake]]''' [[User talk:Blake#top|Talk]]·[[Special:Contributions/Blake|Edits]] 00:12, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::::"Game canon is not anime/manga canon". Yeah. Well then Kris ''never'' existed, nor did Leaf. Deletion time. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 00:51, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::No, it's "Anime/manga canon isn't game canon." Special says they are, anime says they aren't, and the games vouch for neither. What's the justification when the manga isn't proof? Because otherwise, Leaf would be Green, now wouldn't she? Since Special ''must'' be right. [[User:ArcToraphim|Luna Tiger]] * [[User talk:ArcToraphim|the Arc Toraph]] 01:04, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

There were only 2 reasons that Lyra wasn't Kris. One was because they had two separate anime counterparts. However, Crystal was the counterpart that they both shared. So both cancel each other out. Another reason is that they look vastly redesigned as opposed to Ethan and Silver. But Morty and Sabrina were also vastly redesigned as opposed to their fellow Gym Leaders. Kris/Lyra play the same role and have similar enough features. They're as about as recognizable to each other as RGBY!Red is to FRLG!Red. [[User:Pocketfanmk|Pocketfanmk]] 02:55, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
:The "similar features" being gender and hairstyle...
:The difference between Lyra and the Red or Gym Leaders is there is absolutely no doubt the Gym Leaders and Red are meant to be who they are. The games pretty clearly state it. But the only evidence that Kris and Lyra are the same is in the manga, and the manga one isn't the same characters as the game ones. Whereas game-wise it doesn't say anything either way. And to coutner the manga, the anime has them as two distinct people.
:Until someone at GF comes out and says "Lyra is Kris", then the merge should nt tbe done.[[User:Reign|Reign]] 03:09, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

::Sorry if anyone was offended by my "loony" comment. Wasn't aimed at anyone specific, mind you. Gotta remain in good standing so I don't end up the second sysop ever to end up on probation, despite all this fire getting tossed around...

::Anyway, what's keeping said Game Freak staffer from explicitly saying Gold is not Ethan? Maybe we ought to get wind of this argument over to Game Freak's ears, then we'll probably get something...--[[User:Shiningpikablu252|Shiningpikablu252]] 03:20, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

::What do you mean there is no other evidence? They play the same role: the Johto female protagonist. Other Crystal elements were retained; why wouldn't she be retained too? Plus, if she was really a new character, wouldn't she have been advertised as such when her artwork first surfaced?
:::Let's also keep this in mind. They renamed the Tin Tower, added two routes and a Safari Zone, changed Kanto's into Pal Park... What's so strange about renaming a girl who had a version-name (Kris, from Crystal) in Gen II a normal name in Gen IV? Ethan did it. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 09:03, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
::::Nothing, if there was more than a single manga series saying it. I'm not saying Lyra couldn't be Kris, but unless it's actually confirmed for the game character, I don't believe they should be merged. Isn't that Bulbapedia's policy anyway? Don't add it unitl we're 100%, and as far as the game versions of these characters go we ''aren't''. [[User:Reign|Reign]] 09:57, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::Yes. Exactly. And this is also why I'm against any kind of voting about the matter. Because in this case voting will be merely a battle of opinions, not any officially confirmed stuff, which the policy tells us to follow. Having them in separate articles is simply safer. We don't insist that [[Brock (anime)]] is a separate character from [[Brock]], do we? As long as there's no official word about the identity of her in the games. It's currently a draw between the anime and PokeSpe. And draw isn't deciding. I know, TTE, that you want this to be moved desperately but what's the sense of Bulbapedia's existence when it becomes an admin's personal playground of his crazy theories about fandom, instead of a reliable source of information? "Why couldn't rename and redesign her, if they did X, Y, Z before" isn't a reason. "Why not" is never a reason. As long as we don't get any more official "hints" about the matter, then we can talk about the change. As for now, we should leave everything as-is. Also, if we state that Kris MAY be an old version of Lyra (as she is in PokeSpe) clearly on the main head of the article, no one should really get offended. Bulbapedia isn't a place where heated battles of opinions should happen (especially when started by admins). Let's try to be objective and chill the hell out. --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] 12:02, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::Maxim, I totally 100% agree with you. We should keep the articles separate until ''official'' sources say so (keyword = official). Bulbapedia is all about true informomation, unlike the Pokemon wiki, who last time I visited, said that there was a over 200 new Pokemon, and an article on each one. Reason why I came here, it had true stuff about Pokemon! It got rid of all 'fan speculation' and all that crap that was out there. I understand that TTE is an admin and all, but to me, he's a regular person right now. If we merge the article of Krys and Lyra, then we'll turn into Pokemon wiki. Honestly, I don't want that to happen. [[User:Littlmiget123|Littlmiget123]] 12:14, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
:What, are you kidding me? All you guys are just whiners that HGSS isn't exactly the same game as GSC. ''Wah they moved Suicune'', ''wah Bell Tower'', ''wah Johto dex'', ''wah Lyra's not Kris''. If Lyra is not Kris, then Leaf is not based on the unreleased Gen I girl. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 18:32, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
::We aren't whining, so stop acting silly. The difference is, Kris was a real character. Green/pre-leaf was just a few pieces of art. '''[[User:Blake|Blake]]''' [[User talk:Blake#top|Talk]]·[[Special:Contributions/Blake|Edits]] 18:47, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
:::I could care less about HG/SS. That's not what this discussion is about. It's about keeping characters separate. And I dunno about you, but I've never seen any pics with Green's face? Just her back with Blastoise on R/B/G. For all we know, her face could have looked like a wooly mammoth, but that's beside the point. I would say something, but it's not my right to say it. [[User:Littlmiget123|Littlmiget123]] 19:17, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
::::I'm not whining, I'm saying we follow Bulbapedia's policy. You know, don't add until we're absolutely, no-doubt certain. And the thing is, as far as the game versions of these characters go, we aren't. I thought an admin of all people would be trying to enforce this policy, TTE, not directly go against it. [[User:Reign|Reign]] 19:19, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::You know what, TTE? You just revealed your true colors. You just showed everyone that you're a whiner who wants everything on Bulbapedia to be as he wants. All that I used in this discussion were rational reasons. So did most people who agreed with me. And then, when a discussion seemed to shape up and a bud of a reasonable consensus was forming, you just came in baaaawing and whining and accusing OTHER PEOPLE of whining. It was miserable, man. What you just did is funny and sad at the same time. Go on, TTE. Merge the pages. You can even ban me if you want. You just want to merge the pages so there's nothing we can do. But why did you even start the discussion if you just wanted to merge the pages uncompromisingly from the start? I'm disappointed at you, TTE. I'm disappointed on Bulbapedia. I might have been whining about HGSS in the past, sure. But for this matter, you are the only whiner that I can see around. --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] 19:40, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::W-wait a minute! Let's keep this civilized, people, please? This is a discussion, we don't need to be name calling. Although I am slightly confused at why TTE would abandon his own rules like this, there is still no need for name calling! [[User:Littlmiget123|Littlmiget123]] 19:47, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::::Okay. But how can I treat a person whose only reason is "You're all just stupid whiners, so you must all STFU" in the middle of a sensible discussion? It's a blatant proof that someone has no true reasons. And I think it should be also the end of this comedy. I just said how I see TTE's last activity in this talk. And I tried to do this calmly and clearly at the same time. I didn't mean for any "name-calling", I just wanted to make him get rid of the whiny emotions that restrain his mind. --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] 19:53, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

:To lighten the mood a bit, what's this about Betagirl looking like a woolly mammoth?
:http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3330177/woollymammoth.png
:[[User:Umeko|梅子]][[User talk:Umeko|❀]][[Special:Contributions/Umeko|✿]] 19:49, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
::Lmao! Umeko, you are now my most favorite person. Lol, that's so funny! At least now I know where to go if I'm down. Would you mind if I asked you to send that to me by my e-mail? {{unsigned|Littlmiget123}}
:::Haha, it was my pleasure. :3 Not sure why you need it sent by email, if you want to save it you can just right-click→save as...
:::And to actually contribute something to the conversation here, I don't think the two should be merged. Kris was at least notable in that she was the very first female PC implemented into the game, if nothing else. :/ [[User:Umeko|梅子]][[User talk:Umeko|❀]][[Special:Contributions/Umeko|✿]] 20:00, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
::::Lol, I'm still laughing about that. I started crying I was laughing so hard. You made me forget to sign XP. Oh, okay then. I saved it, that's so awesome! And that's true about the first playable female character. You can't really put that on a page called 'Lyra'? I don't know this discussion is getting ridiculous. Plus, the bottom section proves that this was just a bunch of baloney. [[User:Littlmiget123|Littlmiget123]] 20:06, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

== Word from Game Freak about Kris and Lyra's identity problem ==

Regarding the identity debate that has resurfaced in light of the latest manga development, I believe that Game Freak may not have been so vague, after all. According to the bottom of this page [[http://outdoor.geocities.jp/twnfh640/pokemon2.ds.html]], [[Takao Unno]] (HeartGold and SoulSilver's art director) was quoted in a Nintendo Dream interview as saying that "Lyra is a new character that was not designed with the female player character from Pokémon Crystal in mind". I've been aware of this page for some time now, but I've refrained from mentioning it until now since it also claims that some (possibly the same) interview clarified that the programmers of Pokéwalker did not recognize its resemblance to the Pocket Pikachu pedometer. This claim is refuted by the famous "Iwata Asks" interview [[http://www.nintendo.co.uk/NOE/en_GB/news/iwata/iwata_asks_-_pokmon_heartgold_version__soulsilver_version_16288_16289.html], where Ishihara states that the Pokéwalker is the successor to Pocket Pikachu (it was Nintendo and Creatures that had forgotten about Pocket Pikachu when they developed a pedometer game called Activity Meter).

That said, I'm inclined to take the quote about Kris and Lyra at face value, but I don't want to see it misused until we can verify the source (which I believe is the Nintendo Dream issue released in last September). It does make one wonder what Ken Sugimori's role in all of this was; is it possible that Lyra's illustration was drawn by Takao Unno instead? -[[User:Unown Lord|Unown Lord]] 20:01, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
:Amen! --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] 20:05, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
::And I hope that's the end of that.[[User:Reign|Reign]] 20:08, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
:::I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship. --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] 20:10, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
::::I want fellow members to help me find that interview, as opposed to patting themselves on the back for (probably) being right. -[[User:Unown Lord|Unown Lord]] 20:18, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::Thank you very much, Unown Lord. You just saved us about 2 more days worth of fighting. I'd read the article, but I can't read japanese XD [[User:Littlmiget123|Littlmiget123]] 20:21, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::[http://pokemon-memo.com/tag/unno-takao/ 1]. Another source stating the interview. As far as I can read and make something out of electronical translations, it seems like "The Female Protagonist of HeartGold/SoulSilver was created from scratch, without the consciousness of Crystal Female". Though, I'd like someone who can understand Japanese better than me to confirm it. But I feel the sweet smell of an ending... --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] 21:00, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::::"According to Unno Takao-shi, the female protagonist of HeartGold/SoulSilver was designed from scratch, without taking mind of the female protagonist from Crystal," pretty much.
:::::::The article also says that the male and female protagonists for HGSS were not designed by Sugimori as all previous ones have been, but by Unno under Sugimori's supervision. [[User:Umeko|梅子]][[User talk:Umeko|❀]][[Special:Contributions/Umeko|✿]] 22:53, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::::So that's that, then? It's just a matter of finding where this interview came from, which shouldn't be too hard it can't be that o;ld. [[User:Reign|Reign]] 23:15, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::The second article says that the interview is from the November 2009 issue of Nintendo Dream, which was released in September around the remakes' release (I don't know why the magazine's naming system is two months ahead). -[[User:Unown Lord|Unown Lord]]
:::::::::...still doesn't explain Lyra having such short shorts, but it does explain Dawn. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 02:44, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::I think that the far more pertinent question is why Sugimori agreed to Lyra being designed from scratch and his own character, Kris, not being carried over to the remakes. That Kris was not playable in Gold and Silver is merely an excuse, and the quote doesn't say that directly. -[[User:Unown Lord|Unown Lord]] 05:38, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
So now that this has been settled, should we remove the merger templates from this and Lyra's pages? [[User:Reign|Reign]] 07:50, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
:Jeez, I don't look at my watchlist in a couple of days and -bam-, all this occurs. Looking at the two sources posted, it does seem as if they specifically say that Lyra was designed from scratch and is not the same as Kris. So merging the two articles would be pretty pointless.
:Also, TTE, you've just proven to all of us that you pretty much don't give two shits about sticking to rules, guidelines and the like, and instead want everything to be your way. First your wild reasoning of "hey, PokéSpecial did it like this, so let's apply the manga to the entire canon!", when everyone knows Special is completely separate to everything else; and secondly, your selfish edit protecting of this page for a month just so no-one would remove the merge template. That's just damn childish. You really shouldn't abuse your position as a 'pedia admin like that. You've done it enough in other places over the past few months just to get your way... '''[[User:TheChrisD|TheChrisD]]''' [[User_talk:TheChrisD|Rants]]•[[Special:Contributions/TheChrisD|Edits]] 12:45, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
::I protected the page so that no one, mid-argument, could come in and say "NUH UH LYERS NOT CHRIS". I figured we'd not reach consensus this early. And considering the fact that Adventures is ''based on the games'' and the previous remakes' female protagonist's clothing was used by the third-version-named girl in Adventures... yeah, it was possible that we had been wrong to make Lyra and Kris separate pages. '''[[User:TTEchidna|''TTE'']][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 00:27, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

== Don't believe that guy ==

Since I'm banned from Bulbagarden (by the way, dear admins, isn't it the time to lift that undeserved and insane ban from me? I've been away from Bulbagarden just long enough to atone for my "crime") and I can't answer there, the only thing that I can do is protect Bulbapedia from further harm that some random guy on Bulbagarden Forums may do. [http://bmgf.bulbagarden.net/showpost.php?p=1593797&postcount=69 In this post on Bulbagarden Forums] one guy (random and seemingly inexperienced) tries to convince people that what Unno says is supposed to prove the otherwise of our consensus. This is, that Kris and Lyra are same characters. However, his "translation" (allegedly done by his "Japanese-fluent girlfriend") is nothing more than a misinterpretation. It's a wishful interpretation of someone who can't admit that the two aren't same and one characters. First, he cites the "crucial" sentence totally out of context, obscuring its meaning. Unno doesn't says anything about "redesign". What Unno really says that Crystal female character and HGSS female character were designed independently. 意識 means "consciousness" or "senses" (not "concern"), I've checked that in multiple dictionaries. There's no way that the word could be misinterpreted. Also, the particle せず means "without". So, do the maths. Also, he completely ignored the word 新規, which means "new" or "original". Unno used this word in relation to Lyra, very obviously. He also completely ignored what Unno said about Ethan. It's very easy to obscure the intended meaning of out-of-context sentence in a foreign language. And this guy seems to be a master at this. But don't believe him. All he's doing is setting an additional, illegal hurdle on the last metre of our long way to consensus. There are always stubborn people who can't admit the truth and argue with the facts. Some people simply can't understand that the Earth isn't flat and even taking them into space won't convince them. So, for your own sanity and the sanity of Bulbapedia, ignore this guy. He's not a person to be believed. --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] 19:05, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
:Oh lord, is this really not done yet? That guy's just grasping at straws now. [[User:Reign|Reign]] 19:13, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
::We have ended this. Just because the manga says they are the same, doesn't mean they are. They don't even look that similar. I don't see any resemblance at all, other then they have pigtails sticking out the sides, and they both have shorts instead of skirts. [[May (game)|May]] has hair coming out the sides, and wears shorts. Does that mean she is Kris also? Just because Kris and Lyra have the same roles, doesn't mean they are the same person. The manga just didn't want to go through the trouble of making a new character for the HGSS volumes. '''[[User:Blake|Blake]]''' [[User talk:Blake#top|Talk]]·[[Special:Contributions/Blake|Edits]] 20:45, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
:::You don't need to keep restating that, Blake. The interview already confirmed they're seperate, the guy on the forums is making up translations that don't exist. [[User:Reign|Reign]] 22:18, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

== Her name. ==

No, this isn't about her and Lyra. Though I do think they're one in the same..Anyway, isn't "Kris" just a nickname or shortening of her name, Crystal? Is that note-worthy? Or is her name literally "Kris"? There really hasn't been anything on her name other then the english Crystal manuals and box art, which listed her as "Kris". [[User:Lovely Rose|Lovely Rose]] 20:03, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
:I think it is the default name. Plus, it is the first choice. '''[[User:Blake|Blake]]''' [[User talk:Blake#top|Talk]]·[[Special:Contributions/Blake|Edits]] 22:09, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
::I believe the "Kris/Crys is short for Crystal" only appears in the Pokémon Adventures manga (which does NOT consitute game canon, on the record...) --[[User:Zesty Cactus|'''Zesty''']][[User talk:Zesty Cactus|'''Cactus''']] 02:43, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
:::She's called it in "Golden Boys" too. Then again, that manga calls Silver "Black". So I'm guessing "Kris" is simply a reference to "Crystal" rather then a nickname. [[User:Lovely Rose|Lovely Rose]] 17:21, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

== The anime is no longer credible concerning Kris/Lyra's identity ==

Ethan got a new counterpart in the 13th movie despite Jimmy already being Gold's counterpart. This proves that the anime isn't above recreating existing characters, unless you want to argue that Gold and Ethan aren't the same person either. Of course, this doesn't prove Kris being Lyra, but between the anime's loss of credibility and the article about Lyra's design having questionable credibility as well, the whole "Kris isn't Lyra" argument isn't solid either. {{unsigned|Legendary Rotom}}

== Kris originally in HGSS ==

My friend had tried to hack into the HeartGold ROM and he found some old files for the PokeGear, which proves that Kris was originally going to appears in HGSS. http://i46.tinypic.com/29apf86.png

Thought it would be nice to include in trivia. [[User:Mattii|Mattii]] ([[User talk:Mattii|talk]]) 16:18, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

== STADIUM 2 Portrait? ==

I saw that there was one above, If there is one someone should try to get it because it would be an awesome addition to BP. Anyone think they can do it? {{unsigned|AnimeMagic}}

== Missing Overworld Sprites ==

It seems there is only one Overworld sprite for Kris which is when she is facing forwards. Are the side and upward facing sprites generic or just missing? There also don't appear to be any sprites for Kris in HG or SS. {{unsigned|Pokepro97}}
:Why would we need images of overworld kris facing left, right or up? it's unnecessary. Kris wasn't in HGSS, so naturally she wouldn't have overworld sprites from those games.--[[User:Force Fire|'''F'''orce]][[User talk:Force Fire|'''F'''ire]] 08:48, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
::Because she is in Generation II and people use the sprites to identify them. If I saw the sideways sprites, I might actually recogise if I remember her ingame or not and whether I am on the right page or not.

== {{template|unknown name}}? ==

Why is it that Kris has this template at the top of her page when all other player characters are considered to have their default name as their "official name"? [[User:Schiffy|Schiffy (瀬藤健二)]] ([[User talk:Schiffy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Schiffy|Contribs]]) 17:18, 4/6/2014 (UTC)
:Most of the other characters are either in the as a rival character, which only uses one name (the player characters in RSE/DPPt/HGSS/BW/BW2/XY), from internal data (Leaf), or they show up in other games (Red and Blue). Kris' name isn't used in anything besides on box art. --[[User:Funktastic~!|'''It's''' '''Funktastic~!''']][[User talk:Funktastic~!|''話してください'']] 17:32, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
::How is that ''not'' official? That's the closest '''any''' core series player character has to an official name, even if it is only on the English releases. Everybody's chomping at the bit to change things to "official" names that're only words used to refer to things ''without'' naming them (base stats/EVs), how is something that explicitly shows us the company named her something considered "not official"? [[User:Glik|glik]][[User talk:Glik|glak]] 17:54, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
:::I actually get what Funk is saying. Kris, Leaf, and Silver only ever use a player-chosen name in all their appearances (even Hilbert and Hilda show up with those names in the Subway). Because of this, they have no "official" name as an NPC, the most we really have is the first option on the list if there even is one. [[User:Schiffy|Schiffy (瀬藤健二)]] ([[User talk:Schiffy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Schiffy|Contribs]]) 17:58, 4/6/2014 (UTC)
::::I understand it too, but that doesn't change the fact that she was given a name by somebody in charge of the game in some form. [[User:Glik|glik]][[User talk:Glik|glak]] 18:30, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Selphy

2014-04-15T01:16:00Z

Pokepro97: /* Item rewards */

Waterfall (move)

2014-04-14T15:04:32Z

Pokepro97: /* Generation I-III */

{{search|move Waterfall|the stage in [[Pokémon Battle Revolution]]|Waterfall Colosseum}}
----
{{MoveInfobox|
n=127 |
name=Waterfall |
jname=たきのぼり |
jtrans=Waterfall Climb |
jtranslit=Taki Nobori |
gameimage=Waterfall B2W2.png |
gameimage2=Waterfall V OW.png |
type=Water |
damagecategory=Physical |
basepp=15 |
maxpp=24 |
power=80 |
accuracy=100 |
gen=I|
hm2=yes|
hm#2=07|
hm3=yes|
hm#3=07|
hm4=yes|
hm#4=07|
hm5=yes|
hm#5=05|
hm6=yes|
hm#6=05|
na=no|
bdesc=Has a 20% chance of making the opponent flinch. |
category=Tough |
appeal=2 |
jam=0 |
cdesc=The appeal works great if performed last. |
appealsc=3 |
scdesc=A basic performance using a move known by the Pokémon. |
pokefordex=waterfall |
touches=yes |
protect=yes |
magiccoat=no |
snatch=no |
brightpowder=yes |
kingsrock=yes |
flag7=no |
flag8=yes |
sound=no |
field=yes|
target=anyadjacent |
footnotes= }}
'''Waterfall''' (Japanese: '''たきのぼり''' ''Waterfall Climb'') is a damage-dealing {{type|Water}} [[move]] introduced in [[Generation I]]. It is [[HM07]] in [[Generation II|Generations II]], {{gen|III}}, and {{gen|IV}}; it is [[HM05]] as of [[Generation V]]. Prior to Generation II, it was the [[signature move]] of {{p|Goldeen}} and {{p|Seaking}}.

==Effect==
===In battle===
====Generation I-III====
Waterfall does special damage and has no secondary effect.

====Generation IV onwards====
Along with damage, Waterfall now also has a 20% chance of causing the target to {{status|flinch}}. Waterfall was changed to a physical move from being a special move.

===Outside of battle===
====Generation II and on====
Waterfall has an effect outside battle that allows players to climb waterfalls. Note that in Generations {{Gen|II}} and {{Gen|III}}, the HM move Waterfall is not required to go down waterfalls, whereas in {{3v2|Diamond|Pearl|Platinum}} versions, it is required. This is probably to prevent players from getting stuck from accidentally going down a waterfall and being unable to get back up. Despite this, in {{2v2|HeartGold|SoulSilver}} versions, it is no longer required to go down waterfalls, likely because of a lack of accessible down falls without first climbing up one.

==Description==
{{movedesc|Water}}
{{movedescentry|{{gameabbrev3|Stad}}{{gameabbrev3|Stad2}}|The target is hit with a blow packing the power of fish traveling up waterfalls.}}
{{movedescentry|{{gameabbrev3|GSC}}|An aquatic charge attack.}}
{{movedescentry|{{gameabbrev3|RSE}}|Attacks the foe with enough power to climb waterfalls.}}
{{movedescentry|{{gameabbrev3|FRLG}}|A powerful charge attack. It can also be used to climb a waterfall.}}
{{movedescentry|{{gameabbrev3|Colo}}{{gameabbrev3|XD}}|Charges the target with speed to climb waterfalls.}}
{{movedescentry|PMD{{color2|{{md red color}}|Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Red Rescue Team and Blue Rescue Team|R}}{{color2|{{md blue color}}|Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Red Rescue Team and Blue Rescue Team|B}}|Inflicts damage on the target.}}
{{movedescentry|{{gameabbrev3|DPPt}}|The user charges the foe at an awesome speed. It can also be used to climb a waterfall.}}
{{movedescentry|{{gameabbrev3|HGSS}}|The user charges at the foe rapidly, and may make it flinch. It can also be used to climb a waterfall.{{tt|*|Move}} The user charges the foe at an awesome speed. It can also be used to climb a waterfall.{{tt|*|HM}}}}
{{movedescentry|{{gameabbrev3|BWB2W2}}|The user charges at the target and may make it flinch. It can also be used to climb a waterfall.{{tt|*|Move}} The user charges the target at an awesome speed. It can also be used to climb a waterfall.{{tt|*|HM}}}}
{{movedescentry|{{gameabbrev3|XY}}|The user charges at the target and may make it flinch. This can also be used to climb a waterfall.}}
|}
|}{{left clear}}

==Learnset==
{{outdated|section|needs=remaining Pokémon that can learn this move via HM in Gen VI games}}
===By [[Level|leveling up]]===
{{Moveheader/Level|Water|1}}
{{Moveentry/Level1|118|Goldeen|1|Water|Water|37|38|38|37|37|37|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/Level1|119|Seaking|1|Water|Water|39|41|41|40|40|40|STAB='''}}
{{Movefooter|Water|1}}

===By [[HM]]===
{{Moveheader/TM|Water|1|no|HM07|HM07|HM07|HM05|HM05}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|007|Squirtle|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|008|Wartortle|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|009|Blastoise|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|054|Psyduck|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|055|Golduck|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|060|Poliwag|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|061|Poliwhirl|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|062|Poliwrath|2|Water|Fighting|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|072|Tentacool|2|Water|Poison|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|073|Tentacruel|2|Water|Poison|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|086|Seel|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|087|Dewgong|2|Water|Ice|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|116|Horsea|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|117|Seadra|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|118|Goldeen|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|119|Seaking|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|120|Staryu|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|121|Starmie|2|Water|Psychic|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|130|Gyarados|2|Water|Flying|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|131|Lapras|2|Water|Ice|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|134|Vaporeon|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|138|Omanyte|2|Rock|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|139|Omastar|2|Rock|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|140|Kabuto|2|Rock|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|141|Kabutops|2|Rock|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|147|Dratini|1|Dragon|Dragon|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|148|Dragonair|1|Dragon|Dragon|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|149|Dragonite|2|Dragon|Flying|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|151|Mew|1|Psychic|Psychic|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|158|Totodile|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|159|Croconaw|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|160|Feraligatr|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|170|Chinchou|2|Water|Electric|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|171|Lanturn|2|Water|Electric|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|183|Marill|2|Water|Fairy|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|184|Azumarill|2|Water|Fairy|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|186|Politoed|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|194|Wooper|2|Water|Ground|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|195|Quagsire|2|Water|Ground|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|211|Qwilfish|2|Water|Poison|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|223|Remoraid|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|224|Octillery|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|226|Mantine|2|Water|Flying|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|230|Kingdra|2|Water|Dragon|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|245|Suicune|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|249|Lugia|2|Psychic|Flying|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|258|Mudkip|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|259|Marshtomp|2|Water|Ground|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|260|Swampert|2|Water|Ground|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|271|Lombre|2|Water|Grass|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|272|Ludicolo|2|Water|Grass|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|298|Azurill|2|Normal|Fairy|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB=''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|318|Carvanha|2|Water|Dark|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|319|Sharpedo|2|Water|Dark|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|320|Wailmer|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|321|Wailord|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|339|Barboach|2|Water|Ground|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|340|Whiscash|2|Water|Ground|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|341|Corphish|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|342|Crawdaunt|2|Water|Dark|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|349|Feebas|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|350|Milotic|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|363|Spheal|2|Ice|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|364|Sealeo|2|Ice|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|365|Walrein|2|Ice|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|366|Clamperl|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|367|Huntail|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|368|Gorebyss|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|369|Relicanth|2|Water|Rock|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|370|Luvdisc|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|380|Latias|2|Dragon|Psychic|no|no|yes|yes|yes}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|381|Latios|2|Dragon|Psychic|no|no|yes|yes|yes}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|382|Kyogre|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|384|Rayquaza|2|Dragon|Flying|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|393|Piplup|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|394|Prinplup|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|395|Empoleon|2|Water|Steel|no|no|no|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|400|Bibarel|2|Normal|Water|no|no|no|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|418|Buizel|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|419|Floatzel|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|423|Gastrodon|2|Water|Ground|no|no|no|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|456|Finneon|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|457|Lumineon|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|458|Mantyke|1|Water|Flying|no|no|no|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|489|Phione|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|490|Manaphy|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|493|Arceus|1|Normal|Normal|no|no|no|yes|yes|yes|STAB=''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|501|Oshawott|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|502|Dewott|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|503|Samurott|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|515|Panpour|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|516|Simipour|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|550|Basculin|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|564|Tirtouga|2|Water|Rock|no|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|565|Carracosta|2|Water|Rock|no|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|592|Frillish|2|Water|Ghost|no|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|593|Jellicent|2|Water|Ghost|no|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|594|Alomomola|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|656|Froakie|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|no|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|657|Frogadier|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|no|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|658|Greninja|2|Water|Dark|no|no|no|no|no|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|690|Skrelp|2|Poison|Water|no|no|no|no|no|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|691|Dragalge|2|Poison|Dragon|no|no|no|no|no|yes}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|692|Clauncher|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|no|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|693|Clawitzer|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|no|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Movefooter|Water|1}}

==In other games==
===[[Super Smash Bros. Brawl]]===
[[Image:SSBB Waterfall.png|left|200px|thumb|{{DL|Pokémon Trainer (Super Smash Bros.)|Squirtle}} using '''Waterfall'''.]]
 
In ''[[Super Smash Bros. Brawl]]'', Waterfall is {{DL|Pokémon Trainer (Super Smash Bros.)|Squirtle}}'s Special Up move. It can be used by Squirtle as a recovery move and offers high knockback at the very end of the move.

==In the anime==
{{moveanime|type=water|exp=yes|gen=The user charges the foe at an awesome speed. It can also be used to climb a waterfall.|image1=Zoey Finneon Waterfall glowing.png|image1p=Eyes glowing|image2=Zoey Finneon Waterfall.png|image2p=Finneon}}
{{movep|type=water|ms=456|pkmn=Finneon|method=Finneon's eyes glow light blue and a column of water rises from the water, and Finneon swims up the column in a fast, spiraling motion.}}
{{movebtm|type=water|user=Zoey|user1=Zoey's Finneon|startcode=DP077|startname=Staging a Heroes' Welcome!|notes=Debut}}

==In the manga==
===In the Pokémon Adventures manga===
{{movemanga|type=water|exp=yes|gen=The user fires a blast of water from their mouth at the opponent. The water also stays in the air long enough for the user to ride on it.|image1=Misty Goldeen Waterfall Adventures.png|image1p=Goldeen|image2=Dahlia Ludicolo Waterfall Adventures.png|image2p=Ludicolo}}
{{movep|type=water|ms=118|pkmn=Goldeen|method=Goldeen releases a stream of water at the opponent from its mouth. The water can stay in the air long enough for Goldeen to swim across the top of it as well.}}
{{movemid|type=water|user=Misty's Goldeen|startcode=PS066|startname=Punching Poliwrath|notes=Debut}}
{{movep|type=water|ms=230|pkmn=Kingdra|method=Kingdra swims up the middle of a waterfall and staying at the top, opening a hole in the middle of it.}}
{{movemid|type=water|user=Silver (Adventures)|user1=Silver's Kingdra|startcode=PS149|startname=Curious Kingdra}}
{{movep|type=water|ms=171|pkmn=Lanturn|method=Lanturn swims up a waterfall while its Trainer holds onto its back.}}
{{movemid|type=water|user=Misty|user1=Misty's Lanturn|startcode=PS151|startname=Lovely Lanturn}}
{{movep|type=water|ms=272|pkmn=Ludicolo|method=Ludicolo motions its hands up into the air and a geyser of water comes out of the ground and over the opponent.}}
{{movebtmManga|type=water|user=Arcade Star Dahlia|user1=Dahlia's Ludicolo|startcode=PS424|startname=Exit Empoleon}}

==In other generations==

===In battle===
{{Movegen|
type=water|
genI=Waterfall I|
genII=Waterfall II|
genIII=Waterfall III|
genIV=Waterfall IV|
}}
{{Movegen|
type=water|
BW=Waterfall BW|
}}
{{Movegen|
type=water|
Stad2=Waterfall Stad2|
}}

===Outside of battle===
{{Movegen|
type=water|
genII=Waterfall II OW|
genIII=Waterfall III OW|
genIV=Waterfall IV OW|
}}

==Trivia==
* Waterfall was the first move to gain HM status in a generation after it was introduced, doing so in [[Generation II]]. Only {{m|Rock Smash}} shares this trait, although it does not remain an HM in all subsequent generations.

==In other languages==
{{Langtable|color={{water color}}|bordercolor={{water color dark}}
|zh_cmn=魚躍龍門 ''{{tt|Yú Yuè Lóngmén|Fish Leaps Over the Dragon Gate}}''
|da=Vandfald
|nl=Waterval
|fr=Cascade
|de=Kaskade
|el=Καταρράκτης
|it=Cascata
|ko={{tt|폭포|Waterfall}}{{tt|오르기|Rise}} ''Pokpó-Olŭki''
|pt_br=Cascata
|pt_eu=Cascata
|sr=Vodopad
|es_la= Cascada
|es_eu=Cascada}}
{{-}}

{{Waterfall}}
{{Generation II TMs}}
{{Generation III TMs}}
{{Generation IV TMs}}
{{Generation V TMs}}
{{Generation VI TMs}}
{{-}}
{{Project Moves and Abilities notice}}

[[Category:Moves that can cause flinching]]
[[Category:Generation II HM moves]]
[[Category:Generation III HM moves]]
[[Category:Generation IV HM moves]]
[[Category:Generation V HM moves]]

[[de:Kaskade]]
[[es:Cascada]]
[[fr:Cascade]]
[[it:Cascata (mossa)]]
[[ja:たきのぼり]]
[[pl:Waterfall]]
[[pt:Waterfall]]
[[zh:鱼跃龙门（技能）]]

Waterfall (move)

2014-04-14T15:03:38Z

Pokepro97: /* Generation IV onwards */

{{search|move Waterfall|the stage in [[Pokémon Battle Revolution]]|Waterfall Colosseum}}
----
{{MoveInfobox|
n=127 |
name=Waterfall |
jname=たきのぼり |
jtrans=Waterfall Climb |
jtranslit=Taki Nobori |
gameimage=Waterfall B2W2.png |
gameimage2=Waterfall V OW.png |
type=Water |
damagecategory=Physical |
basepp=15 |
maxpp=24 |
power=80 |
accuracy=100 |
gen=I|
hm2=yes|
hm#2=07|
hm3=yes|
hm#3=07|
hm4=yes|
hm#4=07|
hm5=yes|
hm#5=05|
hm6=yes|
hm#6=05|
na=no|
bdesc=Has a 20% chance of making the opponent flinch. |
category=Tough |
appeal=2 |
jam=0 |
cdesc=The appeal works great if performed last. |
appealsc=3 |
scdesc=A basic performance using a move known by the Pokémon. |
pokefordex=waterfall |
touches=yes |
protect=yes |
magiccoat=no |
snatch=no |
brightpowder=yes |
kingsrock=yes |
flag7=no |
flag8=yes |
sound=no |
field=yes|
target=anyadjacent |
footnotes= }}
'''Waterfall''' (Japanese: '''たきのぼり''' ''Waterfall Climb'') is a damage-dealing {{type|Water}} [[move]] introduced in [[Generation I]]. It is [[HM07]] in [[Generation II|Generations II]], {{gen|III}}, and {{gen|IV}}; it is [[HM05]] as of [[Generation V]]. Prior to Generation II, it was the [[signature move]] of {{p|Goldeen}} and {{p|Seaking}}.

==Effect==
===In battle===
====Generation I-III====
Waterfall does physcial damage and has no secondary effect.

====Generation IV onwards====
Along with damage, Waterfall now also has a 20% chance of causing the target to {{status|flinch}}. Waterfall was changed to a physical move from being a special move.

===Outside of battle===
====Generation II and on====
Waterfall has an effect outside battle that allows players to climb waterfalls. Note that in Generations {{Gen|II}} and {{Gen|III}}, the HM move Waterfall is not required to go down waterfalls, whereas in {{3v2|Diamond|Pearl|Platinum}} versions, it is required. This is probably to prevent players from getting stuck from accidentally going down a waterfall and being unable to get back up. Despite this, in {{2v2|HeartGold|SoulSilver}} versions, it is no longer required to go down waterfalls, likely because of a lack of accessible down falls without first climbing up one.

==Description==
{{movedesc|Water}}
{{movedescentry|{{gameabbrev3|Stad}}{{gameabbrev3|Stad2}}|The target is hit with a blow packing the power of fish traveling up waterfalls.}}
{{movedescentry|{{gameabbrev3|GSC}}|An aquatic charge attack.}}
{{movedescentry|{{gameabbrev3|RSE}}|Attacks the foe with enough power to climb waterfalls.}}
{{movedescentry|{{gameabbrev3|FRLG}}|A powerful charge attack. It can also be used to climb a waterfall.}}
{{movedescentry|{{gameabbrev3|Colo}}{{gameabbrev3|XD}}|Charges the target with speed to climb waterfalls.}}
{{movedescentry|PMD{{color2|{{md red color}}|Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Red Rescue Team and Blue Rescue Team|R}}{{color2|{{md blue color}}|Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Red Rescue Team and Blue Rescue Team|B}}|Inflicts damage on the target.}}
{{movedescentry|{{gameabbrev3|DPPt}}|The user charges the foe at an awesome speed. It can also be used to climb a waterfall.}}
{{movedescentry|{{gameabbrev3|HGSS}}|The user charges at the foe rapidly, and may make it flinch. It can also be used to climb a waterfall.{{tt|*|Move}} The user charges the foe at an awesome speed. It can also be used to climb a waterfall.{{tt|*|HM}}}}
{{movedescentry|{{gameabbrev3|BWB2W2}}|The user charges at the target and may make it flinch. It can also be used to climb a waterfall.{{tt|*|Move}} The user charges the target at an awesome speed. It can also be used to climb a waterfall.{{tt|*|HM}}}}
{{movedescentry|{{gameabbrev3|XY}}|The user charges at the target and may make it flinch. This can also be used to climb a waterfall.}}
|}
|}{{left clear}}

==Learnset==
{{outdated|section|needs=remaining Pokémon that can learn this move via HM in Gen VI games}}
===By [[Level|leveling up]]===
{{Moveheader/Level|Water|1}}
{{Moveentry/Level1|118|Goldeen|1|Water|Water|37|38|38|37|37|37|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/Level1|119|Seaking|1|Water|Water|39|41|41|40|40|40|STAB='''}}
{{Movefooter|Water|1}}

===By [[HM]]===
{{Moveheader/TM|Water|1|no|HM07|HM07|HM07|HM05|HM05}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|007|Squirtle|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|008|Wartortle|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|009|Blastoise|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|054|Psyduck|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|055|Golduck|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|060|Poliwag|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|061|Poliwhirl|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|062|Poliwrath|2|Water|Fighting|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|072|Tentacool|2|Water|Poison|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|073|Tentacruel|2|Water|Poison|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|086|Seel|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|087|Dewgong|2|Water|Ice|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|116|Horsea|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|117|Seadra|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|118|Goldeen|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|119|Seaking|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|120|Staryu|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|121|Starmie|2|Water|Psychic|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|130|Gyarados|2|Water|Flying|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|131|Lapras|2|Water|Ice|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|134|Vaporeon|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|138|Omanyte|2|Rock|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|139|Omastar|2|Rock|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|140|Kabuto|2|Rock|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|141|Kabutops|2|Rock|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|147|Dratini|1|Dragon|Dragon|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|148|Dragonair|1|Dragon|Dragon|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|149|Dragonite|2|Dragon|Flying|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|151|Mew|1|Psychic|Psychic|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|158|Totodile|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|159|Croconaw|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|160|Feraligatr|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|170|Chinchou|2|Water|Electric|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|171|Lanturn|2|Water|Electric|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|183|Marill|2|Water|Fairy|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|184|Azumarill|2|Water|Fairy|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|186|Politoed|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|194|Wooper|2|Water|Ground|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|195|Quagsire|2|Water|Ground|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|211|Qwilfish|2|Water|Poison|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|223|Remoraid|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|224|Octillery|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|226|Mantine|2|Water|Flying|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|230|Kingdra|2|Water|Dragon|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|245|Suicune|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|249|Lugia|2|Psychic|Flying|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|258|Mudkip|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|259|Marshtomp|2|Water|Ground|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|260|Swampert|2|Water|Ground|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|271|Lombre|2|Water|Grass|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|272|Ludicolo|2|Water|Grass|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|298|Azurill|2|Normal|Fairy|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB=''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|318|Carvanha|2|Water|Dark|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|319|Sharpedo|2|Water|Dark|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|320|Wailmer|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|321|Wailord|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|339|Barboach|2|Water|Ground|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|340|Whiscash|2|Water|Ground|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|341|Corphish|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|342|Crawdaunt|2|Water|Dark|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|349|Feebas|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|350|Milotic|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|363|Spheal|2|Ice|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|364|Sealeo|2|Ice|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|365|Walrein|2|Ice|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|366|Clamperl|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|367|Huntail|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|368|Gorebyss|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|369|Relicanth|2|Water|Rock|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|370|Luvdisc|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|380|Latias|2|Dragon|Psychic|no|no|yes|yes|yes}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|381|Latios|2|Dragon|Psychic|no|no|yes|yes|yes}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|382|Kyogre|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|384|Rayquaza|2|Dragon|Flying|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|393|Piplup|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|394|Prinplup|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|395|Empoleon|2|Water|Steel|no|no|no|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|400|Bibarel|2|Normal|Water|no|no|no|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|418|Buizel|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|419|Floatzel|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|423|Gastrodon|2|Water|Ground|no|no|no|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|456|Finneon|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|457|Lumineon|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|458|Mantyke|1|Water|Flying|no|no|no|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|489|Phione|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|490|Manaphy|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|493|Arceus|1|Normal|Normal|no|no|no|yes|yes|yes|STAB=''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|501|Oshawott|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|502|Dewott|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|503|Samurott|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|515|Panpour|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|516|Simipour|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|550|Basculin|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|564|Tirtouga|2|Water|Rock|no|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|565|Carracosta|2|Water|Rock|no|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|592|Frillish|2|Water|Ghost|no|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|593|Jellicent|2|Water|Ghost|no|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|594|Alomomola|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|656|Froakie|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|no|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|657|Frogadier|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|no|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|658|Greninja|2|Water|Dark|no|no|no|no|no|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|690|Skrelp|2|Poison|Water|no|no|no|no|no|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|691|Dragalge|2|Poison|Dragon|no|no|no|no|no|yes}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|692|Clauncher|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|no|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|693|Clawitzer|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|no|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Movefooter|Water|1}}

==In other games==
===[[Super Smash Bros. Brawl]]===
[[Image:SSBB Waterfall.png|left|200px|thumb|{{DL|Pokémon Trainer (Super Smash Bros.)|Squirtle}} using '''Waterfall'''.]]
 
In ''[[Super Smash Bros. Brawl]]'', Waterfall is {{DL|Pokémon Trainer (Super Smash Bros.)|Squirtle}}'s Special Up move. It can be used by Squirtle as a recovery move and offers high knockback at the very end of the move.

==In the anime==
{{moveanime|type=water|exp=yes|gen=The user charges the foe at an awesome speed. It can also be used to climb a waterfall.|image1=Zoey Finneon Waterfall glowing.png|image1p=Eyes glowing|image2=Zoey Finneon Waterfall.png|image2p=Finneon}}
{{movep|type=water|ms=456|pkmn=Finneon|method=Finneon's eyes glow light blue and a column of water rises from the water, and Finneon swims up the column in a fast, spiraling motion.}}
{{movebtm|type=water|user=Zoey|user1=Zoey's Finneon|startcode=DP077|startname=Staging a Heroes' Welcome!|notes=Debut}}

==In the manga==
===In the Pokémon Adventures manga===
{{movemanga|type=water|exp=yes|gen=The user fires a blast of water from their mouth at the opponent. The water also stays in the air long enough for the user to ride on it.|image1=Misty Goldeen Waterfall Adventures.png|image1p=Goldeen|image2=Dahlia Ludicolo Waterfall Adventures.png|image2p=Ludicolo}}
{{movep|type=water|ms=118|pkmn=Goldeen|method=Goldeen releases a stream of water at the opponent from its mouth. The water can stay in the air long enough for Goldeen to swim across the top of it as well.}}
{{movemid|type=water|user=Misty's Goldeen|startcode=PS066|startname=Punching Poliwrath|notes=Debut}}
{{movep|type=water|ms=230|pkmn=Kingdra|method=Kingdra swims up the middle of a waterfall and staying at the top, opening a hole in the middle of it.}}
{{movemid|type=water|user=Silver (Adventures)|user1=Silver's Kingdra|startcode=PS149|startname=Curious Kingdra}}
{{movep|type=water|ms=171|pkmn=Lanturn|method=Lanturn swims up a waterfall while its Trainer holds onto its back.}}
{{movemid|type=water|user=Misty|user1=Misty's Lanturn|startcode=PS151|startname=Lovely Lanturn}}
{{movep|type=water|ms=272|pkmn=Ludicolo|method=Ludicolo motions its hands up into the air and a geyser of water comes out of the ground and over the opponent.}}
{{movebtmManga|type=water|user=Arcade Star Dahlia|user1=Dahlia's Ludicolo|startcode=PS424|startname=Exit Empoleon}}

==In other generations==

===In battle===
{{Movegen|
type=water|
genI=Waterfall I|
genII=Waterfall II|
genIII=Waterfall III|
genIV=Waterfall IV|
}}
{{Movegen|
type=water|
BW=Waterfall BW|
}}
{{Movegen|
type=water|
Stad2=Waterfall Stad2|
}}

===Outside of battle===
{{Movegen|
type=water|
genII=Waterfall II OW|
genIII=Waterfall III OW|
genIV=Waterfall IV OW|
}}

==Trivia==
* Waterfall was the first move to gain HM status in a generation after it was introduced, doing so in [[Generation II]]. Only {{m|Rock Smash}} shares this trait, although it does not remain an HM in all subsequent generations.

==In other languages==
{{Langtable|color={{water color}}|bordercolor={{water color dark}}
|zh_cmn=魚躍龍門 ''{{tt|Yú Yuè Lóngmén|Fish Leaps Over the Dragon Gate}}''
|da=Vandfald
|nl=Waterval
|fr=Cascade
|de=Kaskade
|el=Καταρράκτης
|it=Cascata
|ko={{tt|폭포|Waterfall}}{{tt|오르기|Rise}} ''Pokpó-Olŭki''
|pt_br=Cascata
|pt_eu=Cascata
|sr=Vodopad
|es_la= Cascada
|es_eu=Cascada}}
{{-}}

{{Waterfall}}
{{Generation II TMs}}
{{Generation III TMs}}
{{Generation IV TMs}}
{{Generation V TMs}}
{{Generation VI TMs}}
{{-}}
{{Project Moves and Abilities notice}}

[[Category:Moves that can cause flinching]]
[[Category:Generation II HM moves]]
[[Category:Generation III HM moves]]
[[Category:Generation IV HM moves]]
[[Category:Generation V HM moves]]

[[de:Kaskade]]
[[es:Cascada]]
[[fr:Cascade]]
[[it:Cascata (mossa)]]
[[ja:たきのぼり]]
[[pl:Waterfall]]
[[pt:Waterfall]]
[[zh:鱼跃龙门（技能）]]

Waterfall (move)

2014-04-14T15:02:25Z

Pokepro97: /* Generation I-III */

{{search|move Waterfall|the stage in [[Pokémon Battle Revolution]]|Waterfall Colosseum}}
----
{{MoveInfobox|
n=127 |
name=Waterfall |
jname=たきのぼり |
jtrans=Waterfall Climb |
jtranslit=Taki Nobori |
gameimage=Waterfall B2W2.png |
gameimage2=Waterfall V OW.png |
type=Water |
damagecategory=Physical |
basepp=15 |
maxpp=24 |
power=80 |
accuracy=100 |
gen=I|
hm2=yes|
hm#2=07|
hm3=yes|
hm#3=07|
hm4=yes|
hm#4=07|
hm5=yes|
hm#5=05|
hm6=yes|
hm#6=05|
na=no|
bdesc=Has a 20% chance of making the opponent flinch. |
category=Tough |
appeal=2 |
jam=0 |
cdesc=The appeal works great if performed last. |
appealsc=3 |
scdesc=A basic performance using a move known by the Pokémon. |
pokefordex=waterfall |
touches=yes |
protect=yes |
magiccoat=no |
snatch=no |
brightpowder=yes |
kingsrock=yes |
flag7=no |
flag8=yes |
sound=no |
field=yes|
target=anyadjacent |
footnotes= }}
'''Waterfall''' (Japanese: '''たきのぼり''' ''Waterfall Climb'') is a damage-dealing {{type|Water}} [[move]] introduced in [[Generation I]]. It is [[HM07]] in [[Generation II|Generations II]], {{gen|III}}, and {{gen|IV}}; it is [[HM05]] as of [[Generation V]]. Prior to Generation II, it was the [[signature move]] of {{p|Goldeen}} and {{p|Seaking}}.

==Effect==
===In battle===
====Generation I-III====
Waterfall does physcial damage and has no secondary effect.

====Generation IV onwards====
Along with damage, Waterfall now also has a 20% chance of causing the target to {{status|flinch}}.

===Outside of battle===
====Generation II and on====
Waterfall has an effect outside battle that allows players to climb waterfalls. Note that in Generations {{Gen|II}} and {{Gen|III}}, the HM move Waterfall is not required to go down waterfalls, whereas in {{3v2|Diamond|Pearl|Platinum}} versions, it is required. This is probably to prevent players from getting stuck from accidentally going down a waterfall and being unable to get back up. Despite this, in {{2v2|HeartGold|SoulSilver}} versions, it is no longer required to go down waterfalls, likely because of a lack of accessible down falls without first climbing up one.

==Description==
{{movedesc|Water}}
{{movedescentry|{{gameabbrev3|Stad}}{{gameabbrev3|Stad2}}|The target is hit with a blow packing the power of fish traveling up waterfalls.}}
{{movedescentry|{{gameabbrev3|GSC}}|An aquatic charge attack.}}
{{movedescentry|{{gameabbrev3|RSE}}|Attacks the foe with enough power to climb waterfalls.}}
{{movedescentry|{{gameabbrev3|FRLG}}|A powerful charge attack. It can also be used to climb a waterfall.}}
{{movedescentry|{{gameabbrev3|Colo}}{{gameabbrev3|XD}}|Charges the target with speed to climb waterfalls.}}
{{movedescentry|PMD{{color2|{{md red color}}|Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Red Rescue Team and Blue Rescue Team|R}}{{color2|{{md blue color}}|Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Red Rescue Team and Blue Rescue Team|B}}|Inflicts damage on the target.}}
{{movedescentry|{{gameabbrev3|DPPt}}|The user charges the foe at an awesome speed. It can also be used to climb a waterfall.}}
{{movedescentry|{{gameabbrev3|HGSS}}|The user charges at the foe rapidly, and may make it flinch. It can also be used to climb a waterfall.{{tt|*|Move}} The user charges the foe at an awesome speed. It can also be used to climb a waterfall.{{tt|*|HM}}}}
{{movedescentry|{{gameabbrev3|BWB2W2}}|The user charges at the target and may make it flinch. It can also be used to climb a waterfall.{{tt|*|Move}} The user charges the target at an awesome speed. It can also be used to climb a waterfall.{{tt|*|HM}}}}
{{movedescentry|{{gameabbrev3|XY}}|The user charges at the target and may make it flinch. This can also be used to climb a waterfall.}}
|}
|}{{left clear}}

==Learnset==
{{outdated|section|needs=remaining Pokémon that can learn this move via HM in Gen VI games}}
===By [[Level|leveling up]]===
{{Moveheader/Level|Water|1}}
{{Moveentry/Level1|118|Goldeen|1|Water|Water|37|38|38|37|37|37|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/Level1|119|Seaking|1|Water|Water|39|41|41|40|40|40|STAB='''}}
{{Movefooter|Water|1}}

===By [[HM]]===
{{Moveheader/TM|Water|1|no|HM07|HM07|HM07|HM05|HM05}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|007|Squirtle|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|008|Wartortle|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|009|Blastoise|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|054|Psyduck|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|055|Golduck|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|060|Poliwag|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|061|Poliwhirl|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|062|Poliwrath|2|Water|Fighting|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|072|Tentacool|2|Water|Poison|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|073|Tentacruel|2|Water|Poison|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|086|Seel|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|087|Dewgong|2|Water|Ice|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|116|Horsea|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|117|Seadra|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|118|Goldeen|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|119|Seaking|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|120|Staryu|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|121|Starmie|2|Water|Psychic|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|130|Gyarados|2|Water|Flying|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|131|Lapras|2|Water|Ice|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|134|Vaporeon|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|138|Omanyte|2|Rock|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|139|Omastar|2|Rock|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|140|Kabuto|2|Rock|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|141|Kabutops|2|Rock|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|147|Dratini|1|Dragon|Dragon|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|148|Dragonair|1|Dragon|Dragon|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|149|Dragonite|2|Dragon|Flying|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|151|Mew|1|Psychic|Psychic|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|158|Totodile|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|159|Croconaw|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|160|Feraligatr|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|170|Chinchou|2|Water|Electric|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|171|Lanturn|2|Water|Electric|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|183|Marill|2|Water|Fairy|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|184|Azumarill|2|Water|Fairy|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|186|Politoed|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|194|Wooper|2|Water|Ground|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|195|Quagsire|2|Water|Ground|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|211|Qwilfish|2|Water|Poison|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|223|Remoraid|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|224|Octillery|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|226|Mantine|2|Water|Flying|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|230|Kingdra|2|Water|Dragon|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|245|Suicune|1|Water|Water|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|249|Lugia|2|Psychic|Flying|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|258|Mudkip|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|259|Marshtomp|2|Water|Ground|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|260|Swampert|2|Water|Ground|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|271|Lombre|2|Water|Grass|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|272|Ludicolo|2|Water|Grass|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|298|Azurill|2|Normal|Fairy|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB=''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|318|Carvanha|2|Water|Dark|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|319|Sharpedo|2|Water|Dark|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|320|Wailmer|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|321|Wailord|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|339|Barboach|2|Water|Ground|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|340|Whiscash|2|Water|Ground|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|341|Corphish|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|342|Crawdaunt|2|Water|Dark|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|349|Feebas|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|350|Milotic|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|363|Spheal|2|Ice|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|364|Sealeo|2|Ice|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|365|Walrein|2|Ice|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|366|Clamperl|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|367|Huntail|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|368|Gorebyss|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|369|Relicanth|2|Water|Rock|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|370|Luvdisc|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|380|Latias|2|Dragon|Psychic|no|no|yes|yes|yes}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|381|Latios|2|Dragon|Psychic|no|no|yes|yes|yes}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|382|Kyogre|1|Water|Water|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|384|Rayquaza|2|Dragon|Flying|no|no|yes|yes|yes|yes|yes}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|393|Piplup|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|394|Prinplup|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|395|Empoleon|2|Water|Steel|no|no|no|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|400|Bibarel|2|Normal|Water|no|no|no|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|418|Buizel|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|419|Floatzel|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|423|Gastrodon|2|Water|Ground|no|no|no|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|456|Finneon|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|457|Lumineon|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|458|Mantyke|1|Water|Flying|no|no|no|yes|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|489|Phione|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|490|Manaphy|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|493|Arceus|1|Normal|Normal|no|no|no|yes|yes|yes|STAB=''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|501|Oshawott|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|502|Dewott|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|503|Samurott|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|515|Panpour|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|516|Simipour|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|550|Basculin|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|564|Tirtouga|2|Water|Rock|no|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|565|Carracosta|2|Water|Rock|no|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|592|Frillish|2|Water|Ghost|no|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|593|Jellicent|2|Water|Ghost|no|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|594|Alomomola|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|yes|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|656|Froakie|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|no|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|657|Frogadier|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|no|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|658|Greninja|2|Water|Dark|no|no|no|no|no|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|690|Skrelp|2|Poison|Water|no|no|no|no|no|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|691|Dragalge|2|Poison|Dragon|no|no|no|no|no|yes}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|692|Clauncher|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|no|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Moveentry/TM1|693|Clawitzer|1|Water|Water|no|no|no|no|no|yes|STAB='''}}
{{Movefooter|Water|1}}

==In other games==
===[[Super Smash Bros. Brawl]]===
[[Image:SSBB Waterfall.png|left|200px|thumb|{{DL|Pokémon Trainer (Super Smash Bros.)|Squirtle}} using '''Waterfall'''.]]
 
In ''[[Super Smash Bros. Brawl]]'', Waterfall is {{DL|Pokémon Trainer (Super Smash Bros.)|Squirtle}}'s Special Up move. It can be used by Squirtle as a recovery move and offers high knockback at the very end of the move.

==In the anime==
{{moveanime|type=water|exp=yes|gen=The user charges the foe at an awesome speed. It can also be used to climb a waterfall.|image1=Zoey Finneon Waterfall glowing.png|image1p=Eyes glowing|image2=Zoey Finneon Waterfall.png|image2p=Finneon}}
{{movep|type=water|ms=456|pkmn=Finneon|method=Finneon's eyes glow light blue and a column of water rises from the water, and Finneon swims up the column in a fast, spiraling motion.}}
{{movebtm|type=water|user=Zoey|user1=Zoey's Finneon|startcode=DP077|startname=Staging a Heroes' Welcome!|notes=Debut}}

==In the manga==
===In the Pokémon Adventures manga===
{{movemanga|type=water|exp=yes|gen=The user fires a blast of water from their mouth at the opponent. The water also stays in the air long enough for the user to ride on it.|image1=Misty Goldeen Waterfall Adventures.png|image1p=Goldeen|image2=Dahlia Ludicolo Waterfall Adventures.png|image2p=Ludicolo}}
{{movep|type=water|ms=118|pkmn=Goldeen|method=Goldeen releases a stream of water at the opponent from its mouth. The water can stay in the air long enough for Goldeen to swim across the top of it as well.}}
{{movemid|type=water|user=Misty's Goldeen|startcode=PS066|startname=Punching Poliwrath|notes=Debut}}
{{movep|type=water|ms=230|pkmn=Kingdra|method=Kingdra swims up the middle of a waterfall and staying at the top, opening a hole in the middle of it.}}
{{movemid|type=water|user=Silver (Adventures)|user1=Silver's Kingdra|startcode=PS149|startname=Curious Kingdra}}
{{movep|type=water|ms=171|pkmn=Lanturn|method=Lanturn swims up a waterfall while its Trainer holds onto its back.}}
{{movemid|type=water|user=Misty|user1=Misty's Lanturn|startcode=PS151|startname=Lovely Lanturn}}
{{movep|type=water|ms=272|pkmn=Ludicolo|method=Ludicolo motions its hands up into the air and a geyser of water comes out of the ground and over the opponent.}}
{{movebtmManga|type=water|user=Arcade Star Dahlia|user1=Dahlia's Ludicolo|startcode=PS424|startname=Exit Empoleon}}

==In other generations==

===In battle===
{{Movegen|
type=water|
genI=Waterfall I|
genII=Waterfall II|
genIII=Waterfall III|
genIV=Waterfall IV|
}}
{{Movegen|
type=water|
BW=Waterfall BW|
}}
{{Movegen|
type=water|
Stad2=Waterfall Stad2|
}}

===Outside of battle===
{{Movegen|
type=water|
genII=Waterfall II OW|
genIII=Waterfall III OW|
genIV=Waterfall IV OW|
}}

==Trivia==
* Waterfall was the first move to gain HM status in a generation after it was introduced, doing so in [[Generation II]]. Only {{m|Rock Smash}} shares this trait, although it does not remain an HM in all subsequent generations.

==In other languages==
{{Langtable|color={{water color}}|bordercolor={{water color dark}}
|zh_cmn=魚躍龍門 ''{{tt|Yú Yuè Lóngmén|Fish Leaps Over the Dragon Gate}}''
|da=Vandfald
|nl=Waterval
|fr=Cascade
|de=Kaskade
|el=Καταρράκτης
|it=Cascata
|ko={{tt|폭포|Waterfall}}{{tt|오르기|Rise}} ''Pokpó-Olŭki''
|pt_br=Cascata
|pt_eu=Cascata
|sr=Vodopad
|es_la= Cascada
|es_eu=Cascada}}
{{-}}

{{Waterfall}}
{{Generation II TMs}}
{{Generation III TMs}}
{{Generation IV TMs}}
{{Generation V TMs}}
{{Generation VI TMs}}
{{-}}
{{Project Moves and Abilities notice}}

[[Category:Moves that can cause flinching]]
[[Category:Generation II HM moves]]
[[Category:Generation III HM moves]]
[[Category:Generation IV HM moves]]
[[Category:Generation V HM moves]]

[[de:Kaskade]]
[[es:Cascada]]
[[fr:Cascade]]
[[it:Cascata (mossa)]]
[[ja:たきのぼり]]
[[pl:Waterfall]]
[[pt:Waterfall]]
[[zh:鱼跃龙门（技能）]]

Talk:Waterfall (move)

2014-04-14T15:01:38Z

Pokepro97: /* Special in Generation III */ new section

Talk:Snatch (move)

2014-04-14T02:14:58Z

Pokepro97: /* Rest */ new section

Talk:Soft-Boiled (move)

2014-04-14T01:03:11Z

Pokepro97: /* Amount Healed Outside Battle */ new section

===Espeon===

On Espeon's Gen III page, it says that it can learn Softboiled through FireRed, LeafGreen, and Emerald tutor. Is that true, or is it false?
Orcalapras 20:00, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

== B2W2 animation ==

In B2/W2 the animation is different than in B/W. The egg's design is different, so this needs to be updated. '''[[User:Hfc2x|hfc]][[User talk:Hfc2x|2X]]''' 20:00, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

== Trivia confirmation ==

"In Generation III, if this move is used immediately after Brick Break, the egg that appears will be transparent rather than solid. This doesn't affect the execution of the move, however." Can someone upload a video onto YouTube or an image from the Archives to confirm this? [[User:Ht14|'''''ht''''']][[User talk:Ht14|''14'']] 04:38, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

== Amount Healed Outside Battle ==

There appears to be no information on the amounts healed and HP lost outside battle. Off brief testing in Gen 3 Kanto, it appears that the user loses about an eights of their health to heal about a quarter of an ally's health. Confirmation needed, thanks [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 01:03, 14 April 2014 (UTC).

== Amount Healed Outside Battle ==

There appears to be no information on the amounts healed and HP lost outside battle. Off brief testing in Gen 3 Kanto, it appears that the user loses about an eights of their health to heal about a quarter of an ally's health. Confirmation needed, thanks [[User:Pokepro97|Pokepro97]] ([[User talk:Pokepro97|talk]]) 01:03, 14 April 2014 (UTC).

Talk:Soft-Boiled (move)

2014-04-14T01:03:10Z

Pokepro97: /* Amount Healed Outside Battle */ new section

Talk:Rollout (move)

2014-04-14T00:58:13Z

Pokepro97: /* Base Power After x Moves */

Talk:Rollout (move)

2014-04-13T23:31:30Z

Pokepro97: /* Base Power After x Moves */

Talk:Rollout (move)

2014-04-13T23:01:29Z

Pokepro97: /* Base Power After x Moves */