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Talk:Tier/Archive 1

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Gold Silver Ethan Time Capsule.png This is a talk page archive.

It contains old discussions of topics relating to the article. Please do not add or remove any content from it.

  • NOTE*: Before you make comments on a pokemons' tier, be sure the conditions are fair. Lower ranked pokemon can beat higher ranked pokemon. This does not mean the tiers need to be fixed. Just because a Butterfree can KO Heracross with Arial Ace does not mean that either pokemon is in the wrong tier. Thank you.

Does this even belong? I mean, sure, it's a good idea to have it, but... eh, I dunno. Either way, in the current state, the article is pretty crappy. --TTEchidna 03:01, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure about this?

As far as I can tell, by watching YouTube videos of Wi-Fi PBR battles, there are not this many tiers, and some Pokémon seem to be placed wrong. I've watched hundreds of battles, and not once have I seen an Aggron or Victreebel, both of which are listed as moderately used. On the other hand, I've seen lots of Pidgeot and Pachirisu, which are both in the never-used category according to this page. Who determined this list, and how did they determine it? Zurqoxn 01:51, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

  • I believe it was based off some list posted at some website. I don't know which one. But at any rate, there are three things to consider. One, the rate at which things are used are not equal to how high something is on the tier list. Two, opinions of what goes into what tier vary. For instance, Smogon generally agrees Manaphy is uber tier. Third, technically, it is too early in the competitive battling scene to make a proper, full, tier list. In fact, for that reason alone, I believe this article should be deleted or at least changed to descriptions of each tier only until that time comes. System Error 06:22, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
The site was probably Smogon, if you're wondering. Tiers are based mostly off of base stats, types and move pools for each Pokémon. For example, Skarmory is placed in Over Used because of its ability to take a hit and stay standing, due to high Defense and the Steel/Flying types, and its varied move pool. Also, I've never really seen a moderately used tier before, but it makes sense, especially after the changes to game play Diamond and Pearl have made. As a final note, I have also noticed that tiers change rapidly, based on current trends, play styles, and new discoveries. To make the article more accurate and appropriate, we could add a section on controversies, noting such debates as whether Manaphy, Celebi or Tyranitar qualify as Uber or not, and which Pokémon seem to hover between Overused and Borderline. -DarkMazer 00:26, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Also in the recent rush of Trick-Disable pokemon, pokemon such as Kecleon and Mr. Mime have gained a significant boost. I would say MU is fitting for these pokemon. And Sceptile could easily be BL since Worry Seed on Slaking was discovered. These two examples show how in the time between the creation of this list, and now, the metagame has already changed. Also from my personal standpoint, I have seen hundreds of Castforms being used efficiently

User: KarpiFloodcheck 11:55 26 August 2007

  • Well, the Sceptile Worry seed trick, to my knowledge, only works in 2-on-2 battles right? The tier list is normally based only on single battles, and the list would have to change quite a lot to be accurate for doubles. Scarfcrosspwns 03:03, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Edits

I'm pretty sure Sudowoodo is UU or even MU due to his nice attack and defence stats and decent movepool. Because Porygon2 has higher defensive stats than Porygon-Z, he is still a useable option, probably MU.
Wynaut only has 95 base HP, and can usually be beaten in OU. The reason It's usually classed as Uber is because of the fact that if two Wynauts/Wobbuffets meet, the battle is an automatic draw. So the question is, do we want him out of the picture, or allowed in OU and hope that you don't see another?
There are a few decent pokemon listed as OU, that I'm pretty sure are BL, especially on this list, due to the presence of the MU category. These include:
Donphan (Good but questionable)
Dusknoir (Questionable)
Machamp (Slow, generally outclassed by Lucario and Heracross (among others)
Magnezone (4x weakness to the most common offensive type there is.)
Mamoswine (Thought he was MU to be honest)
Medicham (Not bad, but not exactly great either)
Milotic (Outclassed by Suicune.)
Ninjask (the baton passer was a Gen III fad that nobody knew how to deal with. People are wiser now.)
Slowbro (Not sure why he's BL to be honest, good stats, good movepool, and somewhat unpredictable. Suffers from "four-moveslot-syndrome though, this guy has at least ten great moves he could be using. He's probably considered too slow and it's hard to find a spare slot for Trick Room)
Staraptor (Too many weaknesses and not enough defences. He has great attack but he shares his speed with too many others and trails behind many OUs as well.)
Umbreon (This guy was near unbeatable back in Gen III, but didn't get any upgrades from the generation shift that the sweepers got. He is much tougher to use now.)
Weezing (is a good pokemon but is outclassed by Skarmory.)
~~~~

Hey, don't complain to US. We didn't come up with the crappy idea of tiers. So blah. Tina δ 03:50, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

1. As far as I'm concerned, Sudowoodo is UU
2. P2 is BL, not MU due to that fact
3. No one is really sure on Wynaut. Some say Uber, some say OU, some even say UU/NU.
4. Hi Garchomp, watch me Ice Shard AND it is one of the best Spinners in the game
5. High defense, Attack, Immunity to most spinners, and Elemental Punches to smack 'em back.
6. Have YOU ever eaten a No Guard DynamicPunch?
7. Hi Skarmory, stay a while, eat a ThunderBolt
8. Okaaaaaaaaaaay, High Attack, good Typing, and Access to two of the most offensive types. Say ByeBye
Garchomp/Salamence/others.
9. Two words. Pure. Power.
10. Rest+Marvel Scale=Not Pretty
11. So people can deal with it. Passing Speed Boost and Swords Dance can be quite scary.
12. Okay. Probably one of the best Bulky Waters in the game. SlackOff, Ice Beam, Surf, Psychic, is on of the best movesets.
Who needs Speed when you have bulk? If what you say is the case, Blissey and 'Zong should be MU also, Eh?
13. First statement that makes sense.
14. Physical dark moves isn't a bonus?
15. Only weak to psychic, Explode, Sludge Bomb. Skar. Weak to Electric and Fire, PHazer with Spikes and Roar/Whirlwind. Need I say more?

Any more Questions? Oh. And one more thing, THERE IS NO MU TIER! There is Uber, OU, UU, and NU. BL's are OU's but are used less.(This is why I loooooooooooooooooooove reading Smogon.) Midnight Celtic 16:54, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Yea, I dunno what's up with the MU tier here, but anyways:

1. Agreed

2. Prob agreed

3. Agreed

4. He is a great spinner, but so are Starmie and Claydol. Being able to counter three OUs with Ice Shard isn't enough to qualify him alone.

5. Perhaps.

6. DynamicPunch is fun on 'Champ, especially combined with Stone Edge. However, if he's using it, he gives Dusknoir/Gengar a free switch in, and then they nail him with Will-O-Wisp. Not to mention the PP problems he will encounter. And as previously stated, he is simply too slow. Even with absolute max speed, a Jolly Scarf-Champ can't outrun a Jolly/Timid Infernape (and upward) or an Adamant Weavile (among others). I suppose, however, that in BL a Scarf-Champ could devastate all opposition so maybe OU is right.

7. Yea, he tears right through Skarmory, as well as Choice Metagross after it uses Meteor Mash. Unfortunetly, he's not good at much else.

8. Mamoswine isn't bad, but his speed is mediocre and his strongest physical Ice attack is Avalanch/Ice Fang. His movepool isn't great but since I just realized that he can learn Stone Edge he may be OU after all.

9. Pure Power is nice, putting his max attack at a whopping 480 (just a notch above Rampardos), however that requires an Adamant nature, leaving him at only 284 speed. His movepool isn't great either, and he's usually stuck with High Jump Kick as his fighting STAB and Psycho Cut as his Psychic. His other two attacks can be: Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Bulk Up, or Rock Slide (No Stone Edge). Unfortunatly, he has poor defences, so a faster pokemon with Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse and good Sp Attack(Alakazam, for instance) can OHKO. Further, since Psychic resists both STABs and Medicham can't learn Night Slash (or other Ghost/Dark physical moves), bulky Psychics (like Claydol, but watch for Ice Punch, or Slowbro, barring ThunderPunch) can wall him.

10. Rest has the unfortunate side effect of putting Milotic to sleep. Giving the opponent two turns to do whatever he wants to your Milotic is never healthy. I can already see the Gyrarados switching in, taunting and Ddancing.

11. The problem with Ninjask using swords dance is that he can be OHKOd by any solid attack, due to his miserable defences. It is therefore tricky to get the Swords Dance in without taking a big hit. He can be used well with a set like this, however: Baton Pass, Protect, Substitute, X-Scissor. This is normally passed to a pokemon with nice Attack/Sp. Attack, but poor Speed (such as Heracross).

12. Yea, Slowbro is super-cool, but defensively, he has quite a few common weaknesses: Electric, Grass, and Ghost/Dark. Your set doesn't have Calm Mind, and most Special attackers carry at least one of those types. Slowbro just can't voer everything it needs to with only four move-slots. However, it is certainly possible for him to be OU.

13. Yea, to me it seems a lot of people overrate this guy.

14. Physical dark move isn't a bonus when your base attack is 65.

15. Attacking isn't his specialty, due to low speed and mediocre offenses. Used defensively, he is too easy to beat with Special attacks because of 65 base HP and Pain Split as his best recovery move.

Also got a new one for you. Articuno. He is a real dipstick as a pokemon of course, however he learns the devastating combo Mind Reader + Sheer Cold. I believe he is usually classed BL (or MU here) but with this combo, many people say he can be used fairly in the Uber environment, because most Ubers can normally KO him with two attacks anyway. What do you think? Scarfcrosspwns 18:11, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

4. However, Its weaknessess, Grass, Water ,and Ice. Starmie: Grass, Electric, Ghost, Dark, and Bug. Claydol: Bug, Ghost, Grass, Dark, Water, and Ice. See a trend?

6. Maybe BL, but I look at the Definition. "BL Pokémon are stong enough to compete in OU, but the only difference is usage."

7. BL maybe, since it isn't used much. However, Magnezone has the defense to withstand a couple physical attacks and 13 resistances.

9. Or 426, since it is EXTREMELY RARE to see a 'cham sans scarf

10. Do you know what Marvel Scale does? 'dos doesn't have a Physical SE attack. It can learn Thunder/bolt, but wait! 60 Base Sp. Atk? I don't think so. Oh. And there is this wonderful Move called Sleep Talk. Helps bunches.

11. Magical Item, Focus Sash. Swords dance, get the speed boost, and get the heck out!

12. OR: Calm Mind, Surf, Psychic, Slackoff, you lose your coverage against Dragons, but Ice Beam is so common anyway.

14. Better than 60 Sp. Atk. It can wish, Toxic, and Annoy beyond recognition.

15. Yes, but One weakness sans Gravity/Iron orb helps bunches

Articuno. You know, most tourneys don't allow that kind of crud. Articuno is a one trick pony, with its trick being banned 99.9% of the time.

Good day Midnight Celtic 18:41, 31 December 2007 (UTC)


Milotic's Marvel Scale doubles his defence, it's true; however, after a few Ddances, Dos will have insane Att and Speed, and after a Taunt, Milotic won't be able to use rest or recover anyway (will he be allowed Sleep Talk? Unsure). He'll be forced to use Surf or Ice beam (or whatever, she doesn't learn any Electric attacks anyway) against Gyrados' good HP and SP Def.

Ninjask with Focus Sash could be interesting... but he'll only be useable once. Also, if the opponent has any priority move, 'Jask will be KOd before it can BPass.

For Umbreon, is 65 Attack really any better than 60 Sp Attack? Either way, your attacks won't do any damage. This guy is used exactly the way he was in the previous generation:Mean Look, BPass, Toxic, Wish/Moonlight. He's another guy who could use ten moveslots, for things like Taunt, Substitute and Confuse Ray.

Agreed on Articuno lol. But I do think he's allowed in Ubers with Mind Reader + Sheer Cold. Maybe he should be on the list twice with a footnote? Scarfcrosspwns 19:56, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Milotic would still probably be BL though.

There are 8 or nine priority moves. Most Ninjask are leads. I'm a little curious. How common are priority moves on leads? What are the chances? If it's not a lead, UU definitely, but Ninjask that AREN'T leads are slim to none.

Like I said, "ANNOYER"!

IF, and that is a mighty big IF, Crud like that is allowed, Smeargle, believe it or not does a better job, since it can trap, sleep, read, and OHKO. ANYTHING with Mind Reader/OHKO Move could be considered Uber due to your logic.

Midnight Celtic 20:21, 31 December 2007 (UTC)


Milotic: At least BL, no argument there.

I don't know exactly how common priotity moves are on leads, but I do know that Weavile is very often used as a lead and frequently carries Ice Shard.

Umbreon... Are we arguing or agreeing on him? I'm lost lol.

So, should Smeargle and Articuno be in their respective classes, with a note about Uber? I think they're the only ones who get that combo. (Game Freak probably just gave it to Articuno because they felt sorry for him lol.)Scarfcrosspwns 01:37, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I thought most Weavile leads had Ice Punch, but I could be wrong, and just because something is counterable doesn't make it awful.

lol, I'm not sure, I know we started arguing, then I said 65 is better than 60, or annoyer. then you said it was an annoyer, so I think we agreed.

Ummm, no. just becaus something can do mind reader/OHKO, does not mean it's uber. Most of the Pokémon with both move means they have horrible stats. Midnight Celtic 16:23, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

The thing about Weavile is that it has five great moves: Ice Punch, Brick Break, Night Slash, Pursuit, and Ice Shard (Occasionally they carry Aerial Ace, Focus Punch or Swords Dance as well). Of those five moves, All Weavile will have at least three. It actually isn't rare to see a Weavile with both Ice Punch and Ice Shard. Ninjask is probably a decent opener overall if you pair it with the right pokemon (Heracross, physical Infernape, etc.).

Ok, so Umbreon = good annoyer, but not as good as in Gen III (What a shame, mine dominated the Battle Tower). 65 really is no better than 60 though, as he isn't attacking anyways.

You're probably right on Articuno and Smeargle, though. Scarfcrosspwns 03:54, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Tropius is NU?

Does that mean I've used an NU Pokémon to beat the Elite Four in Emerald? Psychic Optimus35Talk | DP Fighting 09:53, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

The Elite four don't have anything to do with the tier list. Face it: they've got brains of cow droppings. This list is solely applicable in player vs player single battles.Scarfcrosspwns 20:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Dewgong!

Dewgong shouldn't be NU either. I used it in the Battle Tower to beat a Dragonite and a Garchomp in one move each, and they're both OU. Shiny?! 18:00, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Hate to say it but Dewgong is NU. He has a horrible movepool and some sad stats. And hello? Dragonite and Garchomp both have 4x weaknesses to it's STAB attack! How could it not OHKO?Scarfcrosspwns 20:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Hydration + Rest? In a rain dance party, that thing can be a bitch.Cheesus Is Lord 12:33, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Whoa. I overlooked Hydration. I suppose his moveset will always be Surf/Ice Beam/Rain Dance/Rest simply because he's got no other moves. Of course, this makes him really predictable (never a good thing) as he can't use any choice items or anything different really. His type coverage won't be great since water and ice don't really mesh, and a simple bulky water will easily wall him. Let's not forget that his base special attack and speed are still only 70, and his defences are slightly better, and 90 hits, 80 def, and 95 spec def. To be honest, however, it still appears that he can hold against most pokémon. I'm still looking for an outright flaw that totally ruins him. Scarfcrosspwns 03:27, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

HUNTAIL?! PARASECT?!

Huntail??? NU???? In what fantasy dream realm is a Pokémon with base 104 Attack, STAB Waterfall, base 105 Defense, base 75 Special Defense, base 94 Special Attack, STAB Surf, and a possible 446 Speed stat in rainy weather, not to MENTION its other move options: Ice Beam, Ice Fang, Crunch, and even Aqua Tail, in NU? Huntail can wipe the floor with the NU tier! And Parasect! Base 95 attack, base 80 defenses, and such low speed that it can outspeed countless opponents in Trick Room conditions, Access to Cross Poison, X-Scissor (with STAB, no less!), and Spore, the most reliable sleep-inducing move in the game, and it's NU? I don't think so. Kinda like a Trick Room-friendly Crobat with a more reliable version of Hypnosis, and more Attack.Missingno. Master 19:40, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Huntail has miserable speed and hitpoints, and his movepool's pretty sad. Using Waterfall and Ice Fang, your attacks have lower power, or using Surf and Ice Beam, your offensive stat are lower. Although to some point, I must agree, he could be UU, he'd just be a bottom-of-the-rung UU. Parasect also has poor hitpoints and horrible typing. As most experienced gamers will know, fire- and flying- types are rare in the OU environment, due to weaknesses (*cough* Charizard/Moltres), poor movepools (Ninetails/Swellow), poor stat distribution (*cough* Flareon/Entei *cough*) and poor type coverage. They are usually stuck in UU and NU with Parasect, who happens to have a 4x weakness to both types. Parasect could be fun with Trick room, but how many Trick Room users do you see in NU? He also has problems with his abilities. With Dry Skin, you're essentially increasing his water resistance, but why do you need it? Parasect would also have some SunnyBeaming possibilities, but not with Dry Skin. Further, it turns his 4x fire weakness into an 8x fire weakness. Therefore, Effect Spore is a necessity. However, with Effect spore, if the opponent is hit with a condition, you can no longer use Spore to put him to sleep. Parasect going to be NU for a long time.Scarfcrosspwns 20:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

In a double battle situation, Parasect with dry skin double resists earthquake and is healed by surf. That right there is well worth having.Cheesus Is Lord 12:35, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

The list, however, is totally unrelated to doubles. Even then, the doubles environment is really suited more toward fast hard-hitters like Weavile and Infernape, and pokémon with 95 attack and a miserable 30 speed really shouldn't be used. Scarfcrosspwns 03:29, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, you got me there with Parasect's typing.... But Huntail's miserable speed is easily adjusted with one Rain Dance. And its HP isn't THAT bad! ESPECIALLY, now with Platinum out, Huntail can learn Sucker Punch. A slow Pokémon with a STAB first strike move. - unsigned comment from Missingno. Master (talkcontribs) 10:33, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Protected page, please

Any smhuck(no offense) can edit this and say their pokemon is uber, etc. Discussion like this should be relegated to the forums, where such discussion does not interfere. Somethign along the lines of the smashboard forums, that relegate smash characters, (periodically updated here by an admin) would work nicely imo.Dark0805 14:03, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it should be protected, but it should be accurate first, I would think. Scarfcrosspwns 01:41, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm talking to TTEchdina right now and I'm suggesting it to him......--155476Theryguy512473 01:45, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Delete It

There is no official tier list. Many people/websites have their own tier lists. For example, some people say that Wynaut is Uber, while some say that it is BL. What is up with that? Obviously, the Tier List has no true content. May we delete it?

Hold you're horses, Cowboy! Before putting a Delete tag on it, ask other users about what they think. This is like the The Great Bulbapedia Turkey Shoot. Many people think that it should be delete, yet some do not. MERRY CHRISTMAS17:40, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I kinda think that we should delete it. After all, this is one of the things that people could put their own shit in it (Along with the Great Turkey Shoot. That page is a steaming pile of crap now, thanks to people overreacting to vandals. :/) and.. yeah. Although, if many people think that we should keep it, protect it instead from either new members or only admins. Tina δ 17:44, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm for deleting it too, it's a unofficial fan list that may have too many errors in it. Plus there is no official list since it was fan-made.Pokemaniac102 17:47, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Lol. I could care less for both this page and the Turkey Shoot. MERRYCHRISTMAS 17:48, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Tiers are just a bunch of bullsh*t anyway. I've had my Glaceon kick a Garchomp's a$$ countless times, and they say that Glaceon is UU/BL? Pssshh. Tina δ 17:50, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Hey, mine did too! Optimatum♏Talk|Hi 04:07, 27 December 2007 (UTC) XD
Now do we all agree to delete it?Pokemaniac1</sub>02 04:08, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Either that or move it to the Appendix.Optimatum♏Talk|Hi 04:11, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we should do that.Poke[[User talk:Pokemaniac102maniac]]102 04:15, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
It's totally fanon. Appendix...Optimatum♏Talk|Hi 04:16, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
I guess...Pokemaniac102 04:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

No way should it be deleted! This is probably the most important list ever for the competitive battler! It does need some work though.

I think that it should be deleted. Well, now that I see that it is in Appendix, I guess it could stay. --155476Theryguy512473 02:53, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
By the way, the Appendix namespace is for 'useless' stuff, seeing as many scientists think that the Appendix is useless...Optimatum♏Talk|Hi 04:23, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Yea, I know. And sometimes, appendixes get removed from the body.......get my connection? --155476Theryguy512473 13:59, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I was wondering what it was doing in the main namespace in the first place...and I do get what you mean. Optimatum♏Talk|Hi 13:35, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
They get removed if they're diseased. Does this appendix look diseased to you? --Clorox (diskussion) 01:00, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree, a system where Palkia and Wynaut are classified the same HAS GOT TO GO! It should at least be posted by one of these Admins that the page is disputed. Venomoth 22:32, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Hitmonchan UU?!

I really think Hitmonchan should be a Border Line. It knows Three STAB Piority First Moves, Can Learn the All Mighty BoltBeam Combo (With Ice/Thunder Punch, of course) And for Crying Out loud, it can Own Blissly In one shot, or atleast Mine can. So please put Hitmonchan in BL, not UU.--Quick Man 17:00, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Uh.. *shrugs* We didn't come up with this list, so.. yeah. Can't help you there. Tiers are crap anyway -- they seriously, imo, mean absolutely nothing. And I'm a big competitive battler too. Tina δ 03:45, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

He's not BL, MU at best. Well, maybe he could be BL. He'd have really nice type coverage from a Choice set like this: Close Combat, Stone Edge, ThunderPunch, Ice Punch. Unfortunately, His Base Attack is too low to use on a Scarf set, or with a Band set, he'd be a pretty slow pokemon. Overall, however, Heracross massively outdoes him. Scarfcrosspwns 20:09, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I beg to Differ! --Quick Man 17:00, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Quick Man. I've used Hitmonchan consistantly in OU battles with Elemental Punches + Drain Punch. (Yes I know that move is crud. but try using it with an Iron Fist Hitmonchan against TTar. I've Recovered almost full health from brink of disaster. Midnight Celtic 17:05, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Maybe Tiers have Seperate Articles?

Okay the more I look at this talk page, the more "Why the hell is so-so in so-so when he can.. blah blah" I start to see. After awhile, it's going to be too much room for the talk page to handle don't you think? So I thought... that if we ARE gonna keep the tier list (Which I hope we do being a fan of competitive battling) that we make seperate articles for each tier?Mudkipchan

Hmm.. that's a nice idea.. although like, if we do seperate the tiers into different pages we should have descriptions of what's mostly in there anyway. Like for example, we could say that OU Pokémon have very high stats and a large movepool, and some such as Tyranitar and Blissey can compete in Uber battles because they are strong enough. Tina δ 03:48, 31 December 2007 (UTC)



We should put each Pokémon's tier on that Pokémon's page. Shiny?!  14:56, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

That works too. But either way, I don't really care which way is done... it's just I don't want to see anything cluttered and such. :P Mudkipchan 16:08, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Why not combine the idea? Keep the list here and mention each pokémon's tier on their own page. Scarfcrosspwns 03:32, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Medicham

Why is Medicham OU? It has horrible stats and a rather small movepool, so it should be moved down to BL. Shiny?!  15:02, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I think its Pure Power ability has something to do with it, which DOUBLES its attack stat.

Glitch Pokémon and Official Pokémon

There is no real difference between the two. In my opinion, the two should be considered equal!

000.png

15:39, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I Agree with Shiny Noctowl! I think Medicham DOESN'T have what it takes to be a OU! I say BL, or even MU.--Quick Man 17:02, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Have YOU ever eaten a Pure Power Elemental Punch? Not pretty. Midnight Celtic 17:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, although I haven't studied Medicham yet... I kinda have to agree about the Pure Power thing. But I'm also going to side on both sides here, cause it still has bad stas and a not so nice of a movepool... although it does have roles under its belt. :P Mudkipchan 17:31, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

@Quick Man: (Bear in mind this is not directly at you) BL is just OU that is used less. Try again. Midnight Celtic 18:45, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I think probably BL. He's just a bit too fragile. BL is not OU that is used less, It's actually supposed to be for those too strong to be UU. However, here we have MU for some reason...Scarfcrosspwns 20:01, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Look on Smogon, Pg13 of tier discussions, second post. Look. Oh and btw, look at OUR list again. No MU. Midnight Celtic

TIRES DON EXITS

Should we have a tier list for the Smash Brothers games? --FabuVinny T-C-S 16:29, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Wait.. there's tiers for SSB too? Tina δ 16:56, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
WHAT? Seriously? But....they're only like 20 characters for the SSB games! Is the list like.....10? --155476Theryguy512473 20:08, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Tier lists are about defining the hierarchy of effectivenenss. With the amount of variables between the different characters, yes, the serious competitive players have come to a consensus on who it is wise to use or not use in the tournament scene. National tournament-winners of Melee almost always use Marth, Fox, Falco or Sheik. --FabuVinny T-C-S 02:50, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
On consideration, I think I'll just note the individual tournament status for Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Pichu and Mewtwo in their own articles. --FabuVinny T-C-S 12:19, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

dashpic3vu6.png

Since Smash is somewhat related to Pokémon, maybe the Smash lists should be somewhere. And yes, there are huge differences between Smash characters, especially in Melee, that require a tier list. Scarfcrosspwns 03:35, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

There shouldn't be a SSB tier list, since in that game it's possible to beat any character with any character. Hell, there's people who say Kirby is only good at edge-guarding (and that he sucks at even that), but I kick unbelievable *** with him against characters that are supposedly the only ones you should even think about using competetively (like Mario, Captain Falcon, and Ness)! And I don't edge-guard at all! Diachronos 17:13, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Wobbuffet

I think it's worth noting that currently, a test is being conducted to see whether Wobbuffet should be moved to OU. -- Glitch Pokémon. Official Pokémon. There is no real difference between the two. In my opinion, the two should be considered equal!-- quoted by Missingno. Master 15:53, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, although I highly doubt it will happen. Oh, and I think (last time I checked) there was some support for moving Garchomp to Uber. I haven't looked recently, so I don't know. Midnight Celtic 17:47, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
The agreement now is that Wobby is definetly Uber, and although the Garchomp to Uber thing did get some support, nearly all reputable tier lists still have him in OU. Scarfcrosspwns 02:27, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Dragonite & co.

Dragonite is a VERY rare sight on OU battles, since it can't match Salamence and Garchomp, and since BL are for OU-strengh Pokémon with few appearances, I suggest it is moved down to it. This works for many other Pokémon in the same situation, such as Ambipom.277Greysky135 03:58, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, It's not used often, but no, it shouldn't be moved. Moving a Pokémon with that power would overcentralize the BL Metagame. Everyone would be forced to carry the strongest Ice Pokémon in BL (I haven't checked who it is). Yes, BL is Pokémon who can solidly compete in OU, but not seen, but it is also for Pokémon too powerful for UU, which is where most BL Pokémon fit. Besides, other than Shelgon, which is rarely seen, Dragonite is the best Dragon-type tank. Midnight Celtic 13:36, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
No one plays BL enough to say there is a metagame. And besides, BL, like Uber is merely a ban tier. Even if people start playing enough of it to have a metagame, its basic purpose is a ban tier. By definition, Dragonite is technically BL last time I checked usage statistics (which was april lol, but not like that changed)

--Outrage DD 00:52, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Opinions?

The tier list just looks like a bunch of opinions to me. A Pokémon's strength depends on its training as much as its species. Some Pokémon, like Magikarp, are obviously inefficent to use in battle, but a Toarkoal (listed as NU, btw) can destroy a Regice (listed OU) in a fair battle, and the list does not reflect many aspects of a Pokémon's value, and it often is based off predjudices such as legendary status. Just thought I would point this out. Theininen 02:11, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

That's why its in the appendix, bucko (Snap says this alot?). Posted by the Θρtιmαtum♏Talk|Links02:15 11 May 2008
Honestly, it really is just opinions. But most of the time, they are fairly valid opinions. Sure, your Torkoal may beat my Regice, but most people wouldn't leave an Ice-type in against a fire. Not all things are biased toward Legendaries. Take Regigigas. It's a legendary, (and a pain in the hind end to get) but last I checked on a reliable source, it was Lower UU/Upper NU. This was discussed somewhere on Serebii where many people wanted to throw tiers out the metaphorical window, but some people disagreed, and almost mobbed the guy. If you absolutely wanted to, sure go in afight with your Torkoal against a Regice, but don't expect to win. MidnightCeltic 00:42, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Midnight Celtic. Just because Torkoal could theoretically beat a Regice, we don't need to assume that the list is wrong. I used a Butterfree-Heracross in an example at the top, however, in reality, Butterfree would lose to almost any pokémon that it couldn't beat with one hit, whereas Heracross is a beast even at the highest level of competition. Scarfcrosspwns 03:40, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

who actually uses a Torkoal with the exception of the hardcore Torkoal fans? (all 3 of them) thats what its getting at. lets face it, people will/would/do use Arcanine or Blaziken (etc). -- MAGNEDETH 03:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Arcanine? Blaziken? Hello! Infernape!! Scarfcrosspwns 03:53, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

T-tar

A crazy proposition maybe, but maybe we should move Tyranitar up to Uber? its stat total is actually over 600, because Rock-type's Special Defense increases in sandstorm, and its ability is to whip a sandstorm as it enters.

Ttar's been getting a lot of controversy this generation. Personaly, I don't even know what to support. It's true that his attack is godly and that all his defences are also very strong. However, his speed is a huge letdown. He's also got a big 4x fighting weakness. Further, his sandstorm can be difficult for the rest of the user's team to deal with, and typical Ttar users have to build their entire team around him. Also, if the weather gets changed on him, he suddenly looks really akward (much like Kyogre). Possibly his biggest fear is Bronzong or another bulky tank. The other option is a choice scarf physical sweeper who can KO it before it gets KOed. Probably the biggest example is Scarf-Cross, he's a killer. I can't decide for sure about this, but I'd say that the Beast from GSC is one of the best OUs out there. Scarfcrosspwns 03:52, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Dear Tyranitar,

Focus Blast or Aura Sphere. You are dead.
Your friend, Togekiss.

T-tar is very powerful, no doubt at all. however, he is very slow, has poor sp. def., and has a 4x weakness to fighting. -- MAGNEDETH 03:53, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

What Ttar are you talking about? His special defence is base 100 and is doubled by his sandstorm. It's in fact extremely high, even at it's very lowest. Scarfcrosspwns 03:57, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

whoops. ever since i cut T-tar from my team, i must have forgotten. i was thinking about Aggron. hes easy pickens. either way, Fighting-type moves are very common, and having 5 other weaknesses doesnt help. that and his fantastic speed make him very difficult to use. why couldnt he be Ground/Dark?!?! -- MAGNEDETH 04:04, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I was wondering lol. Being one of only three who can break 500 special defense and one of only two who can break 600 at a whopping 656, he could have the highest Special defense (if he wanted it). Scarfcrosspwns 15:02, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Meh, Tyranitar wss always noob to me. Besides, these are just tiers. I usually use Pokémon who are in the lower classes, yet they usually kick ass. So, in actual fact, tiers don't matter at all. Posted by the Θρtιmαtum♏Talk|Links08:27 25 May 2008

"So, in actual fact, tiers don't matter at all." Unbelievable. There are people who still think that??? What you're telling us is, that if you had a team consisting of a Ditto, a Caterpie and an Unown, that you'd have a fair chance against a Metagross, a Salamence and a Weavile? Scarfcrosspwns 19:59, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Sure I would. If the Metagross, Salamence and Weavile were not EV-trained and Unown has a good HP (Hidden Power) type, then I would pawn. It's the Θρtιmαtum♏Talk|Links08:27 28 May 2008
Absolutely unbelievable.
You seriously think your opponent not EV training is enough to make up for the huge difference in tier? And to be honest, it really doesn't matter so much what HP your Unown has. The fact remains: IT HAS ONE ATTACK AND LOW STATS. Aiming for the strongest Psychic one possible still leaves you a weak attack and Weavile will completely annihlate him. If you aim instead for type coverage, such as an Ice hidden power, two of the other team's three pokémon will still wall you and take you out with a single attack. The obvious exception is Fire, but I don't think anyone in their right mind would choose a Fire attack to be their only move. Fighting I suppose might be a strong choice, but again, you won't be able to hit Salamence at all, and Metagross very little. If you get a critical hit, you might be able to take out Weavile, and you'd better hope you do, or else Pursuit will finish you. The truth is, because Unown's stats are so bad, it would have to be super effective to do any real damage, even to Weavile. Of course, your team's problems don't end with Unown. All of your pokémon could be OHKO'd by any of your opponent's pokés. If your opponent gets one free turn, then Dragon Pulse sweeps your entire team (I'm assuming Specs-Mence, but Dragon Claw works equally well for the physical variants). And how exactly are you going to stop him? String shot? I'm not just talking about these two teams either. Any NU team vs any OU team has all the same problems. Scarfcrosspwns 02:37, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Uhh, right... -totally convinced- As Fabu-Vinny (I assume it was him) said: TIRES DON EXITS!!!!!!! It's the Θρtιmαtum♏Talk|Links04:03 29 May 2008


Unn. Bee. Leave. A. Bull. Scarfcrosspwns 15:33, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Hey, if you wanna discuss this any further, meet me on Shoddy Battle. Bring a Caterpie, an Unown, a Ditto, and 3 other NUs, and I'll take an OU team and I'll be sure not to EV them. I can even give Weavile a modest nature if you want. You will still lose. Scarfcrosspwns 02:30, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Always stronger?

"All Pokémon that are not listed here are never used in competitive play because they have an evolved form and evolutions are always stronger than pre-evolutions. There are a few exceptions, however, such as Porygon2 and Light Ball Pikachu"

Come on people, that doesn't even make sense. Please change it to evolutions are nearly always stronger. Scarfcrosspwns 04:14, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Past lists

Does anyone know where one could find the lists for competitive play in Gens I, II or III ? Scarfcrosspwns 04:15, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind, they're all on Smogon. Does anyone think we should have the older lists on Bulbapedia? Scarfcrosspwns 02:32, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Apparently, there's something WRONG with the note at the bottom of the page...

Why is Wynaut in the Uber? The bottom of the page says that pre-evolved Pokémon aren't shown. And don't say 'Why not?' It's the Θρtιmαtum♏Talk|Links04:58 29 May 2008

Wynaut has a larger movepool than Wobbuffet, making it one of the few Pokémon stronger than it's evolution if used correctly. But, in all seriousness, I must say: why not? Elemento 02:04, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

But when it evolves Wobby can keep the moves. TTEchidna 04:57, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Nonono, check the notes. It says that pre-evolved Pokémon aren't there for a reason. It's the Θρtιmαtum♏Talk|Links05:38 1 Jun 2008
Well, Wynaut's specifically included in the uber tier because of its ability and moves. TTEchidna 05:56, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Okay, so where is the Light Ball Pikachu? It's the Θρtιmαtum♏Talk|Links06:05 1 Jun 2008
Beats me. You should already know I hate this page... >> Didn't make it, hate to touch it, don't wanna bother to organize it. TTEchidna 06:17, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Meh, I hate it too. I always wondered why no one deleted it. It's the Θρtιmαtum♏Talk|Links06:18 1 Jun 2008
Wynaut is listed because he plays very differently than Wobby. He does not have nearly as much HP and is more geared toward Encore and getting that Destiny Bond in before he dies. He is actually not strong enough to be Uber but he is banned in competition because if two Wynauts/Wobbies meet they trap each other and force a draw. He listed there so that people don't use him. And as for why you people hate this page, well that IS a mystery. Scarfcrosspwns 15:41, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I remember realizing that if you put a Pokémon in the daycare, it automatically learns moves, and even if you had it in there past its evolution level, you can evolve it by raising it one level. Is it possible to put Wynaut in the daycare and rely on chance to make it learn the right moves, then take it out and turn it in to Wobba? --Clorox (diskussion) 22:53, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Pokémon learn their level-up moves automatically in the daycare. New moves replace old ones. Wynaut only learns moves up to level 15. If it is kept in the daycare longer than that, then it will come out with the four moves it learns at that level. You would have to use up a Heart Scale to make it re-learn any its three original moves. Then evolve. ~$aturn¥oshi THE VOICES 23:20, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Use of Ü

I have some knowledge of German and I am pretty sure "Uber" is spelled with a Ü. It's Alt+0220. Is there any reason against using proper German loanwords? --Clorox (diskussion) 22:48, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Laziness, as it's not in the character palette... TTEchidna 02:29, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Here's an idea

Why Don't we base it off of a formula off of several things I.E

1.Stats (Of course)

2.How well can It cover Its weaknessess (I.E Torterra would rank high because of stone edge and earthquake which covers all its weaknessess)

3.Large move pool

4.Ability

5.Special moves (I.E ones like Baton Pass,Dragon Dance,Aerial Ace,Ones that have a "special effect")

Although we could say that It shouldn't be a list but instead a program for judging a team (somehow) Atomix26 21:05, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Partially because Smeargle throws a Curveball to all but identifiers 1 and 4. And at least if you want Types, Marriland has an excellent program for that kind of stuff. MidnightCeltic 21:07, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Why dont we just erase the tier page and just create a new pokemon wiki based off of the discussion of our teams and how to improve them. (if this passes I call admin) and also in that case for smeargle it would rank high (if I wasnt clear on #5 its strategizing your moves. Atomix26 21:17, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Ummm. calm down, I was just stating that With that system, people would get the idea that Smeargle was really good, when it really... isn't. it's just okay. MidnightCeltic 21:29, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I like responding to old stuff. Also Wobbuffet and its mediocre movepool and its uber status (debated or not) wants to have a word. Also covering its weaknesses means nothing when let's say, your a Garchomp with Fire blast expecting an ice beam from an ice type. Chances are your going to get it from a water type.

--Outrage DD 00:47, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I say that the Admins should get together and come up with Bulbapedia's own tier list, rather than using Smogon's (which, quite frankly, is a piece of $#!*; there's Pokémon that should be in at least BL, if not OU or even Uber, but are in UU just because people don't use them as much as others). Maybe establish a list of criteria that each Pokémon needs to meet/pass to be classified in each tier (example: for OU, they must capable of learning a moveset that can trump at least 7 types, as well as high Attack/Special Attack and high Speed), instead of just going by how often it gets used? Diachronos 16:21, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Gallade

Why is Gallade BL? Looks pretty good for OU to me. Porygon-man 23:53, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Smogon says it's OU. One of the reasons why this list of tiers should not exist, since there are many. tc26 23:55, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

F.E.A.R

Shouldnt a F.E.A.R rattatta be OU becuase it can take down most non-ghost type pokemon? for you out there wondering what a F.E.A.R rattatt is its a rattatta with quick attack focus sash and endeavor. Goes like this opponett attacks focus sash leaves 1 hp rattatta uses endeavor opponett has 1 hp rattatta uses QA foe is KO not this can only be used in cases when no EXP will be gained. Atomix26 21:27, 10 July 2008 (UTC)


Because everybody's watched Marriland vs. Untouchable, and knows that something is up when a Lv. 1 Rattata pops out of a battle that has been Lv. 100 since. MidnightCeltic 21:38, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Uhmm... FEAR Rattata is easily beaten if you know how. Just switch out into Gengar and the FEAR strategy is over. JirachiWishmaker0802 13:17, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Don't forget the fact that if you don't have a Gengar, you can just switch into another Pokémon on the turn when Quick Attack is used. Quick Attack doesn't do much damage, the other Pokémon is allowed to use any attacking move they please. - s.Combusken 05:20, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Sand Storm, hail, spikes, toxic spikes, substitute and the list goes on.......

--Outrage DD 00:44, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Borderline Tier

We should consider merging the Borderline tier with the OU tier since they're almost the same. JirachiWishmaker0802 17:02 29 July 2008 (UTC)

No they aren't. OU pokemon are those that are overused. UU Pokemon are those that are underused. BL Pokemon are Pokemon that are underused, but are too broken for said tier. Uber is to OU as BL is to UU.
That is unless you people are going by mere usefullness rather than traditional usage statistics. Take Magneton in Gen III. it was a useless Pokemon outside of killing skarmory, yet it was considered UU because it was used almost as much as Skarmory. Don't let the tiers fool you. Just because something is BL doesn't mean its weaker to something that is OU.

--Outrage DD 00:40, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Good Pokemon in the wrong tier

I can't believe how many good Pokémon are in the wrong tier! Gallade? Honchkrow? Huh? HUH?! JirachiWishmaker0802 15:29 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I think Honchkrow should AT LEAST be BL. Coz if it holds scope lens and has super luck and uses night slash which is STABBED, it has a 50% chance of critical hitting. Furthermore, Sky Attack which also has a high critical hit can also do massive STABBED damage, though it isnt the best of attacks, and it does have poor defenses... but it could be possibly Baton Passed into.--Wowy 07:29, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

You guys are morons/you need to fix something (two separate things here)

1. You don't get to come in here and decide where pokémon fall in tiers. Get a clue. If you want to change the tiers ask around and find out where to go.

2. The bottom blurb about Porygon2 and Light Ball Pikachu should include Scyther.

OK BYE! Antarctica 03:32, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

HELLO, POSTSCRIPT:

Garchomp was moved to Ubers by Smogon. While they don't really dictate what is and what is not in which tier, would it be worth moving him here as well? Just a thought. — antarctica | talk 14:21, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Smogon basically does decide the tiers. Scarfcrosspwns 18:34, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

So what?

Are you people actually doing these tiers based on usage for OU and UU and what Pokemon is jsut broken there (hence Uber and BL) or is it done by usefulness/strength? --Outrage DD 00:37, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

It's done by usefulness/strength. Take into account base states, types, move pool, abilities, etc., and you can create some seriously powerful pokémon, or just pieces of crap. Farfetch'd, for example, can unfortunately never be good. The only time I am aware of the metagame actually dictating where a pokémon goes is recently when Smogon bumped Garchomp from OU to Ubers, and that's going to reshape the whole game (we hope). Go read Smogon or something if you want to know in-depth. — antarctica | talk 18:03, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
And don't forget that you can't judge whether a Pokémon is in a particular tier or not just by looking at a few things. Rayquaza might be an Uber, but that doesn't mean that it can easily beat an OU Ice Punching Weavile. Diachronos 17:37, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
I know how Rayquaza can be beaten by OU Pokemon. Heck, standard Kyogre is beaten by Shedinja. Why is it then that you use usage terms that Smogon uses on their tier list when you aren't tiering by usage statistics (and what is generally broken)? Here's the perfect example: Magneton in 3rd gen. It is crap, yet OU merely because it was used as much as Skarmory just to beat Skarmory.. its crap everywhere else, but still OU. If you aren't going to use usage statistics than wouldn't different terms be more useful here? It conflicts with already existing terms. BL Pokemon aren't Pokemon inferior to OU half the time. They are merely Pokemon who are not over used but are broken in the lower tier. --Outrage DD 00:48, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Garchomp

is ubers. GarchompScarfcrosspwns 18:13, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Maybe add some notes to the bottom of the page?

Should explain why certain Pokémon are in certain tiers. Like Wynaut in Uber (still don't get that-as if it could take hits like Wobbuffet, and even then, Wobbuffet is far more manageable these days, what with Shed Skin, U-Turn, Roar, Whirlwind, Gastro Acid, Skill Swap, Worry Seed, the list goes on and on. Then there's Sableye and Spiritomb, both unnaffected by Counter AND Mirror Coat.), Regigigas in BL (For those who don't know how truly awful Slow Start is), and- wait, why hasn't Garchomp been moved into Ubers on this list? Smogon's ubers list has Garchomp, and it's not like they just added it to ubers on a whim, they took an entire month to test how battling would change w/o Garchomp, then they took the most experienced battlers, and had them vote on the matter. The overwhelming majority of votes were for Uberizing Garchomp. - unsigned comment from Missingno. Master (talkcontribs) 10:41, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Stop complaining

Everyone who's complaining that "This Pokémon should be OU instead of BL" or "How is this Pokémon OU when it should be UU"; KNOCK IT OFF. I agree that you can't just chuck a Pokémon in a spot based on a small number of statistics, but you have to remember that how powerful a Pokémon is is based off of how it was raised.

  • Example: A Houndoom (BL) with SolarBeam goes up against a Groudon (Uber). The Houndoom knocks out the Groudon with only one hit. Does this mean that it's impossible for Groudon to be an Uber, or for Houndoom to be a BL? NO. Diachronos 17:32, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Deletion of the list

Why can't we just delete the list? There is no official list, and each tier list can greatly vary. --Posted by Deadlymethane at 20:52, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I second that motion. Also because this tier list does not seem to be using usage statistics yet are using the traditional usage terms. They completely misclassify what a UU/OU/BL?Uber Pokemon is because of that. Yeah there is a corrolation between usage and usefullness, but things like 3rd gen Magneton completely destroys their definition when outside from killing Skarmory, it was shit yet was OU because it was used as much as Skarmory.--Outrage DD 00:42, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Garchomp is in Ubers

Garchomp has gone up to Uber. So can someone edit the page and put him in Uber? Master Lucario

Uh... not that I've heard. I'll start a topic on it on the forums, but until we can get a consensus on the issue, Garchomp isn't an uber. --ニョロトノ666 21:14, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
Well, Smogon put him there because he overcentralized OU. He's been there for at least a couple of months now. Link here Master Lucario
A Donphan with Ice Shard can 3HKO (sometimes 2HKO) Garchomp, yet Donphan's not Uber. So neither is Garchomp. --Baby G (talk to me) (see my edits) 01:06, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I must applaud this article...

...for the simple reason that it is the most viewed article in the Appendix space. Θρtιmαtum♏Talk|Links