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Talk:Swords of Justice

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Other possible inspirations?

Couple of observations that have been pointed out to me that may have also been part of the inspiration for the quartet. In France, where the Musketeer stories originate, there's a variation of Rock, Paper, Scissors which includes a fourth option: Well. It may be coincidence, but the primary types of the Musketeer quartet seem to reflect this. Rock, Steel/Scissors, Grass/Paper, and Water/Well. Another, slightly more unlikely proposition I've heard is that the four are based upon the four horsemen, with their livestock basis being a nod towards Arceus'[the God or creator] design as an equine creature. Kobaruon would be Conquest; Terakion, War; Birijion, Famine [its pokedex entry specifying it trifles with opponents, implying a slow demise]; and Keldeo, Death.

Should these possible influences be considered and added to the article at some point? When it comes to design inspiration, most pages tend to take liberties, especially with the newer Pokémon. In any case, I felt the two observations were worth bringing up. Tindil 19:10, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

The Rock-Scissors-Paper thing makes a lot of sense to me. Seems like a valid connection.--Podunk 07:11, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Different name?

Okay, so, before, I know, the lake guardians were called by us the lake trio. And now with Gen V being new, this is the musketeer trio. One problem there, though.

THERE ARE FOUR OF THEM.

So I propose naming this page either musketeer ungulates (goes with the rest of the non-mascot trios, which don't use trio in their name), or legendary ungulates. And yes, I do intend for you guys to stop linking to them at every damned chance. TTEchidna 19:05, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

It's called the three musketeers hence why it's a trio remember, Keldeo(d'Artagnan) isn't considered one yet as he's a new member and Keldeo being based on him should have the same treatment Ataro 19:09, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
This is still a dumb name. TTEchidna 16:43, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I get an odd feeling to rant about how Keldeo doesn't belong, but something tells me that would get me banned again. So rather than ranting, I'll just list what discludes Keldeo.

  • Exhibit A) MASS distance; seven Pokédex slots between Terrakion (last in the lineup) and Keldeo.
  • Exhibit B) Altered learnset; knows Aqua Jet rather than Quick Attack, learns Sacred Sword at 43 rather than 42, and is the only one to learn Sword of Mystery.
  • Exhibit C) Obtain method; the others roam, and Keldeo is an event Pokémon

To think that I inverbally supported the dragons but am disaproving of musketeer junior here. Giratina's Embodiment - Please don't hurt us... 01:48, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

1)You mean Virizion.

2) god forbid it learns something different

3) It's the youngest so it takes longer to learn. and Sword of Mystery is an event so it doesn't count

4) your point? Ataro 01:53, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, that last part was me just thinking out loud... or something like that. And just because we're making an anology to a story/legend doesn't mean we need to link together every little bit of the story/legend to Pokémon. Giratina's Embodiment - Please don't hurt us... 02:03, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Also, Keldeo is event-exclusive, so yes, Sword of Mystery does, in a way, count. Giratina's Embodiment - Please don't hurt us... 02:07, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Hm... Musketeers doesn't make much sense unless you know the origin, and even then Keldeo doesn't really count, even though it's definitely a counterpart. On the other hand, ungulates is very vague and lame; what would we do if another trio were based on ungulates? We'd have another "Dragon Trio" on our hands. I would lean toward Legendary Musketeers: it's not perfect, but it's the best I can think of. --AndyPKMN 14:33, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm totally with TTE on this one (I actually came to this page to request a move). Sure, it's not a member of the trio, but it is closely related. We could call it "legendary musketeers", "musketeer Pokémon", "musketeer ungulates" or "legendary ungulates". As TTE mentioned, only box legends get trio, and there can be considered to be four of these. Also, unless it was officially stated that they are inspired by the musketeers, this is a poor title choice. "Legendary ungulates" seems to be the best choice. --SnorlaxMonster 02:43, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
"Ungulates" isn't going to garner favor or use. "Trio" is also not exclusive to box mascot trios; that's simply how it's happened so far (the Raijin/Kami trio will break it if the Three Musketeers don't). How hard is it to call them the Musketeer Quartet? They're going to be called the "musketeers" for short by the rest of the fandom, no matter which name is used here, ultimately. Luna Tiger * the Arc Toraph 02:59, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
But it's debateable whether there re 3 or 4 of them, so just not mentioning it is better. Calling them the "Legendary Musketeers" seems to solve this problem. --SnorlaxMonster 12:24, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Remove Keldeo from the article

Just because it's another Fighting legendary doesn't mean the trio is a quartet. Besides, it's not confirmed. Bwburke94 16:54, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

ahahahahaha no. Keldeo has a connection to the other three (and yes it happens in game) and it was adopted by them Ataro 16:58, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Trio Master

If, as we have noted, Keldeo is not truly part of the trio, and it is (semi) far apart from the others in the Pokedex, wouldn't Keldeo be qualified for Trio Master? This would also save us from the trio/musketeers/quartet dilemma. I am Darth Mewtwo... Fear me, and my team made entirely of Mewtwo!!! 18:37, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

A Pokémon that is a trio master is one who, in some way, oversees a legendary trio of Pokémon. Keldeo does this in no way, as he is the least experienced of the group. Just because he breaks the conventions of the other three, that doesn't make him the master. --jda95 03:39, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Moving it to Legendary musketeers

Is someone approves of this move, say I. Since there are four members, its more likely. Duo2nd 10:11, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Since it is debatable whether or not Keldeo is part of the trio, it is better to not mention it. --SnorlaxMonster 06:30, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
I guess there's a difference between "Musketeer Trio" and "The Three Musketeer". They are not a trio, but they are "The Three Musketeer", get it? I mean, the name "Three Musketeer" is about the original three and a friend who came after. Making a gross comparison, it's the same difference between United States of America and America's states united. The latter would be a union of all states all over the continent, and the first is a country's name, although not all states of the America got together to build a country. Gabriel Rocha (Diby esp) 22:40, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
Can we just call them the "the Musketeers"? No "Legendary", no "trio", no "quartet", no "Muskedeers". There is nothing else in the series that can be called a "musketeer", thus is should not need a "Legendary" to differentiate them from anything else. They're special and unique enough that Musketeer is a big enough blanket term to cover all four of them, or all three of them. Birds are birds (half the flying class), beasts are beasts (most of the ground group), golems are Golems. Since there will never be a consensus on the numbers, eliminate them. Since there hasn't been anything else based on the Musketeers, no need to separate them with a "Legendary" prefix, because it's obvious they're referring to the legendaries without having to call them that; if this changes in the future, you can talk about it then. But I say make this easy: just call them the Musketeers. Luna Tiger * the Arc Toraph 17:18, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
I think Luna's thought is a good one, but if that doesn't work, I think the next best would be Legendary musketeers. Ikarishipper900 23:51, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
I think just musketeers works as well, but I also feel that it implies that they are human; however, the is just a minor complaint, and I would be happy with them at either musketeers or legendary musketeers, just as long as the title does not specify number. --SnorlaxMonster 08:47, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Not that I disagree with this, but the musketeers seem too...general to refer to them. "Legendary Musketeers" at least would highlight the fact they're legendaries. J-J-M 09:36, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
But why not musketeer quartet? They are with 4 members, and that is a quartet. --Nazirbashir 18:20, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

I concur we should move it to Legendary musketeers unless there is a confirmed trio master.Could Cobalion be the master you need to battle him before you can get the others. --Pokemonboy3000 05:51, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Cobalion could be a trio master - I would consider him one - but he's also a part of the trio, which is in fact not a trio, but a quartet, which is the root of the problem. I'm in favor of Legendary Musketeers. Ikarishipper900 16:19, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Luna. DeniedGrox 18:23, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Move to Legendary musketeers supported. --The Great Butler 07:47, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Les Trois Mousquetaires

Les Trois Mousquetaires (The Three Musketeer) is a novel by Alexandre Dumas. It talks about Three men and one friend of them, the younger D'Artagnan. So, what's the problem with the name? That perfectly fits the story--TheFaither 19:02, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

People are literal with their numbers. Luna Tiger * the Arc Toraph 19:35, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Official source. based on a The Three Musketeers.

It is being described by Nintendo Dream vol.204. Sawamular101 19:06, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

types

There types may be refer to the homes of pokémon: rock for cave pokémon, grass for pokémon in the forest, woods or just tall grass, water for pokémon that life in lakes or in the sea and steel may be refer to pokémon that life in the city (like the trash cloak of wormadam). Nickvang 22:47 25 june 2011

Keldeo is special

Keldeo is clearly sticking out. Its an "additional/extra/hidden" member of the legendary trio.


--It is an event pokemon; not obtainable on the actual playthrough; one of those hidden ones at the end of the dex; It doesn't share the battle music because you don't even get to encounter it; You have to drive to a movie or download it via wifi at a specific month in the near future; This is glaringly obvious and causes facepalming.

--It has a unique move which it does not share with the three that teach it: Secret Sword The unlocking method (bringing the legendary group to a certain place) has been used for making "additional members" of legendary groups appear several times:

  • Crystal: Beasts->Ho-oh
  • DPt: Lake guardians->dimension legendary
  • DP/Pt: golems->Regigigas / Regigigas->golems
  • HGSS: Weather duo->Rayquaza
  • BW: Kami demons->Harvest Kami

-Even from a lore standpoint: It has not been with them from the start. The musketeers rescued the orphan from certain death, noticed its potential, and trained it, which surprisingly resulted in it rapidly growing as strong as them, which is when all they had left to teach it was a unique move for it. While it is indeed on par statwise with the trio, consider that it does this while lacking the adult and elegant design accompanied with that on the other three.

Just because it doesn't fit the conventional fan-made term "trio master", does not mean you should force it into the group as a proper member and ignore it being the apprentice. If anything, the term "trio master" needs an update to additional group/duo/trio member. There might as well be weaker additional members someday for example anyway. --Saiph charon 18:27, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

I wonder whether it gaining a "Resolution forme" will finally make the musketeers fit the legendary trio classification again?... Which is what they are, with or without Keldeos existence, they're as much of a trio as any other. Keldeo is the extra, not the norm. Event->unavailable in normal gameplay.... There has always been groups of legendaries that share an equal ammount of similarities, AND have a more special additional member :/ --Saiph charon 07:28, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Move

Will you please move this page to "Sacred swordsmen"? SaturnMario, his talk and his contributions 23:35, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I think Legendary Musketeers is fine. Sacred Swordsmen is the Japanese name, and we generally go with the English name for the page title. MatchMaster (Talk | Contribs) 00:38, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
I think it's better to just wait for the dub of M15 to come out and see how TPCI will translate this. --Chao超龍 02:45, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
My two cents: I understand that they are based on the Three Musketeers. Still, why are they actually called the Musketeer Trio (or Legendary Musketeers, whichever you prefer,) at all? A musketeer is a soldier equipped with a musket, and these Pokémon do not seem to be wielding muskets. If you're not interested in nitpicking the wording, the theme of RSE was centered around ecological balance, yet the legendary trio is not called the 'Ecological Trio'. Groudon and Kyogre comprise the Weather Duo, so named based upon the Pokémon, not what they represent. 'Sacred Swordsmen' seems to be based more on the Pokémon themselves. We could also do as the last post suggests. Regardless of the debate, I think referring to a Pokémon as a musketeer may simply send the wrong message. Here end my thoughts for the penny jar. SaxyOmega90125 (talk) 04:03, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
"Musketeer" may literally mean a soldier wielding a musket, but in common modern parlance it's rarely used except to refer to The Three Musketeers, so I see no problem with keeping the current name until TPCI translates M15, and possibly beyond that indefinitely if, for some reason, the movie avoids translating the term. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 06:04, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
If the movie avoids translating it, I would rather use "sacred swordsmen" (but I don't know how they would manage that). --SnorlaxMonster 06:06, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
People, just because the Three Muskteers has "Three" in it doesn't mean its Three Musketeers, their Japanese name is "Scared Swords Men", but lets keep the American Name. -Clubchloe1 19:52, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
I think we should just wait until the dub name of the move is released. サトシ101 (talk) 00:58, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Pokemon.com officially names the trio on the movie page as the Swords of Justice. While we should wait for the movie to be released since Pokemon.com has made mistakes before, as of now, Swords of Justice I think is the most official term used for them (similar to the Lake Guardians). Pocketfanmk (talk) 06:54, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
No. Swords of Justice is clearly the official English term. The title confirms that it's not a mistake. Ataro (talk) 07:08, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
Oh, right. Well there you go. We move to Swords of Justice, yes? It's official and everything. Pocketfanmk (talk) 01:37, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Question?

Just wondering. Why aren't the Swords of Justice categorized with the legendary trios again? Pocketfanmk (talk) 01:37, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Keldeo. --Abcboy (talk) 01:44, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
I thought we said that Keldeo was a "special" member. The exception. Pocketfanmk (talk) 07:39, 25 September 2012 (UTC)