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Bulbapedia talk:James/Gardenia poll

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Why was this even moved to begin with? The only articles that I can see that deserve to be moved like this are Sabrina's Haunter (because Ash only had it for one episode, and it has never been alluded to since that point unlike his other Pokémon), Casey's Beedrill (again, same reason) and Ash's Chimchar (because Ash is the main character of the series, whereas Paul is simply a rival). Now, one could argue that since Ash only owned Primeape for five episodes, it should be renamed as Anthony's Primeape. However, unlike Haunter and Beedrill, Primeape has been referenced to as being Ash's (Spurt! comes to mind). It's not called Benny's Lickitung because Jessie owned it for longer than he did, and he is an unimportant character of the day, and we do not create articles based on Pokémon belonging to characters of the day. Ash's Chimchar is in sort of a gray area, but I personally am in support of keeping it at that name, at least for now. If something happens (like Paul gets it back, or something) we can always rename that article. But there is absolutely no reason why James's Cacnea should have been renamed to Gardenia's Cacnea. I would switch it back myself right now, but since there's a poll, it would be best to wait and hear what the users of Bulbapedia have to say. --PAK Man Talk 02:30, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I just hope enough people see this. But as of now, James is taking the lead. We'll see what happens at the end of the week. --ケンジガール 03:30, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Actually, Beedrill has been seen again. The whole reason it was under Casey's name in the first place is that it is one of her main three Pokémon. --FabuVinny T-C-S 01:44, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Just why do you think it should be at "James's Cacnea"? James doesn't even have a Cacnea. Gardenia has a Cacnea. --Shiny NoctowlTalk | Contribs 01:48, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Of course he has a Cacnea! He has a Cacnea from AG006 all the way through to to DP054. The fact that a plot device is coming along to take said Cacnea away next month does not change that. --FabuVinny T-C-S 02:24, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
He did have a Cacnea, but now he doesn't because he gave it to Gardenia. --Shiny NoctowlTalk | Contribs 20:41, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Ah, don't know where my mind went when I said Beedrill hadn't been seen again. And some more reasons why I believe it should be located at James's Cacnea: We don't call Misty's Horsea and Misty's Starmie Horsea (Cerulean Gym) and Starmie (Cerulean Gym). We didn't rename Brock's Steelix, Crobat and Geodude to reflect the fact that he gave them to Forrest, we didn't rename James's Victreebel as Magikarp salesman's Victreebel, and we didn't rename Ash's Raticate to Gentleman's Raticate. But the most important reason is that it is a future event. Doesn't anybody remember a certain episode where everybody thought Misty's Psyduck would evolve into Golduck? --PAK Man Talk 05:23, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

What th--?

Um... I don't think we need this as an official poll. And what's this "weightings" garbage? Why should any one user be more important than another? That's not the wiki way. --DarkfireTaimatsu 21:10, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Not sure about the official part, but that weightings nonsense has been reverted. Only sysops have the ability to weigh the poll, and this poll is not that important to be weighted. The only poll I can think of that was weighted was the one about the ads, and that's because it was such an important issue. And there, the one who made that decision was Zhen Lin, the editor-in-chief. --PAK Man Talk 21:16, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
The weightings have still ended up at 11 to 16 in favour of James anyway. :p --FabuVinny T-C-S 01:46, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
But losing by 5 is better than losing by 6. It's a lot easier to catch up. --Shiny NoctowlTalk | Contribs 01:48, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but directly attempting to manipulate the results undermines the validity of this poll. That's why I'm creating this next section... --FabuVinny T-C-S 02:00, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I wasn't trying to manipulate the results. I simply felt that bigger contributors should have their vote count more. --Shiny NoctowlTalk | Contribs 23:05, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
It's not the quantity, but the quality of your edits that matters. --DarkfireTaimatsu 21:25, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Let's discuss this

Wikipedia puts an emphasis on discussion rather than straw polls. Normally, I wouldn't suggest Bulbapedia do something just because Wikipedia does it but they do have a point here. We don't need polls to come to a sensible decision.
The only point in favour of Gardenia is a group of flawed examples: Beedrill was immediately given to Casey and became one of her main Pokémon in future appearances, Haunter is debateable on ever being Ash's in the first place and Chimchar is only just going to get its focus now that it is going to the protagonist. On the other hand, there is no doubt that Cacnea has been James's Pokémon for its entire run of the show. If there is nothing else then we shouldn't be waiting to send Cacnea back to James. After all, it's not as if this has even been confirmed yet. Heavily implied, sure, but the writers have surprised us before. --FabuVinny T-C-S 02:00, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Taking another cue from Wikipedia, they title things by their most common name. There have been countless debates there over article names, often solved by Google searches. Even after the episode airs in the US, Cacnea will likely be called "James's Cacnea" by the majority of the community. Therefore, the article should be titled to reflect this. Zurqoxn 18:07, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
James doesn't own a Cacnea. Gardenia owns a Cacnea. We shouldn't have an article about a Pokémon that doesn't exist. Since James gave it to Gardenia, there is no such Pokémon as "James's Cacnea," but there is a Pokémon called "Gardenia's Cacnea." We should call it by the name of the person who actually owns it, which is Gardenia. --Shiny NoctowlTalk | Contribs 20:21, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

(It only makes sense, otherwise Bulbapedia will be a mess and people that visit will say things like, "I thought it was Gardenia's Cacnea now?". And eventually all COTDs will have a page for their Pokémon, so why make things unorganised?) TESHTALK FUN 16:44, 17 November 2007 (UTC) PS I forgot about what it said, I got carried away... XD!

Think of Sabrina's Haunter, its the same thing, I think it should be Gardenia's Cacnea! KPF 17:49, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

But you're talking about a Pokémon that Ash DID NOT officially capture and was there for less than 2 episodes. James actually captured his Cacnea and it stayed on his team for 260 episodes. I think that's a big difference. --ケンジガール 00:31, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Also: still Ash's Charizard. Still Ash's Raticate. TTEchidna 02:49, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Exactly. Surely you people don't believe that we should call it "Liza's Charizard"? If it were one of Ash's Pokémon then we wouldn't be having this debate. --ケンジガール 02:58, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

But Ash didn't officially release Charizard, he put it in training. Well you have a point with the Raticate... I'm just thinking of peeople that visit Bulbapedia, not just the Users... TESHTALK FUN 13:56, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Again, I'll reiterate the points that I have been making all along. The reason we call Ash's Haunter Sabrina's Haunter is because he never technically owned it. Now, if he had captured it in a Poké Ball or actually used it in battle (which he didn't do) I would have it moved back to Ash's Haunter. As for Brock's Vulpix, although he said he never felt that it was his, it was. Susie is nothing more than a character of the day who happened to appear in one more episode. Bulbapedia does not have articles for Pokémon belonging to characters of the day, and Susie is no exception. This is the same reason we do not call Jessie's Lickitung Benny's Lickitung. He is a minor character of the day who never appeared again, or was made reference to.
Now, the major difference between calling it Sabrina's Haunter and calling this Gardenia's Cacnea is because James actually legitimately caught Cacnea, and used it in battle countless times. Can the same be said for Haunter? No. In fact, most fans of the TV show probably don't even realize that Ash even used a Haunter. Just like how most fans are more likely to remember Brock than Susie, or James than Gardenia, or Jessie than Benny. Honestly, I don't see why people are getting so worked up about this. --PAK Man Talk 02:21, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Good Point. By the way, I'm not getting worked up, I just thought it should be changed to the current owner and not the previous. Meh, I don't care anymore. (Who knows, Gardania might return) XD TESHTALK FUN 16:18, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

If Gardenia becomes a recurring character after this point, then there will be grounds to consider this issue. Unless that happens, Cacnea goes under James. Simple as that. --FabuVinny T-C-S 02:00, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Enough of this edit war!

I've had enough of this edit war over whose side the Poké Ball transfer belongs on. My honest 2¢: It's best to view that event from both angles. He could have outright given it away, similar to how Beedrill went from Ash to Casey. On the flip side, he may have had intention to get it back someday at the time of the transfer, similar to how Primeape went from Ash to Anthony. Believe me, it can be seen as evidence either way, and hence I've included both phrases used in this edit war to reflect such.

(For the record, the cent sign is Alt-155 or Alt-0162 on Windows.) --Shiningpikablu252 21:23, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

No closing date?!

Dude. What the crap.

I say we need a closing date for this. It's been open for a while, it's a stupid poll anyway, it's 17-5 (Kinda big difference.) and.. yeah. I say we close this. Tinaδ 22:25, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I say at least wait until the episode airs in English. Zurqoxn 23:53, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
That is far too long. I say we should close the poll now. Consensus here and beyond the poll is that the Pokémon of main characters go under the main character's name even after leaving. There is no need to keep it open at all. --FabuVinny T-C-S 01:57, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Consensus means that everyone agrees. I don't agree, so it isn't consensus. --Shiny Noctowl 19:32, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Why don't you tell that to Shiny Noctowl. He's the reason that we have this problem. --ケンジガール 05:45, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

He's practically forgotten all about this already... Agent #448 | 05:50, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think he has cause he's still arguing over it. I find it quite funny to say he knows all about the circumstances of James giving Cacnea to Gardenia when he doesn't even watch the original episodes. --ケンジガール 06:41, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Which is another reason why to close it. The topic is lost, so is the poll. Tinaδ 21:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Fabu-Vinny, "consensus" means that everyone agrees. As you can see by the poll, everyone doesn't agree. Shiny?! 23:23, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
If that was all there is to consensus then we would never get anything sorted. The case for James has the majority agreement and fits in with the results of the wider naming debates. Being stubborn isn't enough to change that. --FabuVinny T-C-S 03:58, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Whew. This mess is finally over. The big message is basically saying this.

IT'S GONNA BE JAMES'S FOREVER. End of story. No more arguements about this freakin stupid poll. =.= Tinaδ 17:30, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Help

Someone who can edit this now-protected page please put my name for JamesPokemaniac102 15:40, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Poll's closed. Sorry. --Shiningpikablu252 15:42, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

k. Who won?Pokemaniac102 16:25, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

James won, despite Shiny Noctowl's efforts to try to skew the poll in Gardenia's favor. These efforts include:
  • Trying to weight the poll*
  • Insisting James's Cacnea doesn't exist because of the events of DP054*
  • Setting no closing date in hopes Gardenia would make a comeback*
  • Insisting James giving over the Poké Ball is evidence for Gardenia's side when it was long-standing in the James column*
Of course, as Fabu-Vinny said, if Gardenia does become a recurring character after DP054 (I highly doubt that--****, I wouldn't have anticipated Gardenia reappearing after DP037) and doesn't give Cacnea back, there might be grounds for renaming the page, but it stays at James as it stands now. --Shiningpikablu252 17:01, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

...

Why is this still here? Can't it be deleted now? This was going on even before I left! --Theryguy512 00:46, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

It's kept for the purposes of chronicling our past. TTEchidna 03:03, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Oh.....That makes sense. Okey dokey! --Theryguy512 03:22, 27 February 2009 (UTC)