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Appendix talk:Metagame terminology

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Nicknames for species?

I think Shedinjask may be on the right track as far as that goes... this page needs to be cleaned up anyway... lemme get a list of the nicknames and I'll see, eh? TTEchidnaGSDS! 23:25, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

TrickBracer?

Do people still do that? I'd say using Iron Ball or Lagging Tail would be far more effective in the current generation. --Phred 04:05, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

a question

can someone please explain this whole "metagame" thing to me? There seems not to be a Metagame article. 折り紙ガイ 12:03, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, it would be nice if we had a list of OU UU and NU pokemon. Noname

I agree. I'd like to know what Pokémon are OU, UU, and NU. I swear i saw an article on there before, but i can't remember which one. I really have no idea what Pokémon are UU, NU, and OU, But it'd be nice too see if any of the Pokémon in my main party are Overused or Underused. I know that the Final-forms of the Starters are probably overused...a lot xD Takoto タコト 17:55, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
List of tiers. Tina 17:56, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Oh. Thank you very much! :D Takoto タコト 18:05, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

New Strategy

If i manage to come up with a new strategy, can I post it here on this article? JirachiWishmaker0802 14:45 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Since Smogon.com pretty much controls the metagame, if you can prove to them that it works well enough there, and they come up with a cool name for it, then yes. Good luck. (looks at Solrock page). PsychoRobo 19:51, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Proof?

"Shaymin in its Sky Forme may also see use as a flinchaxor, due to its Serene Grace, high Speed and Special Attack, and the ability to learn Air Slash."

I can't see anything that confirms this. Removing until someone has a reliable source. PsychoRobo 19:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Garchomp now considered Uber

Garchomp has been added to the Uber tiers at Smogon.com so I've added him to the Ubers list.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/tiers/uber

Baby G removed it from the list, I just added it back in. Oh, and sign your comments. Satosuke 14:07, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
I removed it because Garchomp is not uber. Garchomp can be 2HKO'd by Donphan's Ice Shard, but Donphan's not uber. --Baby G (talk to me) (see my edits) 14:58, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
So can Salamence now can't it? --PsychicRider 15:23, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but nobody ever said Salamence was uber. --Baby G (talk to me) (see my edits) 15:24, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
Just because it isn't on that list, doesn't mean that it isn't able to be compared to one. --PsychicRider 15:26, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
Smogon is a fan-site (although a very influential one admittedly), one classification can't be relied upon. The pseudo-legendaries may be classified as uber collectively, but to say one is powerful than the others is inaccurate, particularly as they appear to be designed to be equal. --Hyurnat4 22:39, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
This is why I'm against this tier garbage... CuboneKing (Planet CuboneBone Club) 22:42, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Poké Nicknames?

I finished redirecting all the terms to this page. Anyone think it's necessary to redirect the Pokémon nicknames to their respective articles? --ニョロトノ666 00:32, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Quality standards

Hey, what will be needed to make this article apply to the quality standards of Bulbapedia? - Clarky13

Tiers

Definitions for most parts are wrong. These terms stemmed out from Smogon as usage based tiers and I am changing the definitions to reflect that.--Outrage DD 20:01, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

SMogon Thread regarding Tiers So I'm not saying that Competitive Battlign = Smogon always, but that these terms did originate from that source, and must have the proper definitions.--Outrage DD 20:09, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Also forgot to add this quote from that thread that will sum this all up "People want to know which Pokemon are good. Now lets think about this: "since we are basing standards on which Pokemon are used in a competitive enviroment (namely, what you would use in a tournament), would someone over use a bad Pokemon?" No. People want to win, and since people like to use the best Pokemon, we have a correlation between usage and power. The problem comes around when people group Pokemon obviously meant for the BL tier in the OU tier and it becomes a meaningless list of what people think is strong"--Outrage DD 20:11, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Stop

Can whoever keeps editing Garchomp off the Uber list please stop it. Especially since you aren't giving any reasons for removing it. Mr. Black 05:49, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Castform = NU. Castform's Blizzard = OHKO on Garchomp. That's why I keep removing Garchomp from Uber. Chocolate 14:39, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't even think anyone should even humor that kind of stupidity and ignorance to the ways of the game. Garchomp was extensively tested by players much better than you. If you're going to dispute the logic of Smogon, at least come up with an argument more effective than "it can be one-hit killed by Castform." The icing on the cake is that you're not even correct, considering it runs Yache Berry. Lulz 10:43, 28 November 2008 (EST)
And I actually tested it myself. The Garchomp did even have Yache Berry, and my Castform still OHKO'd it with Blizzard. If Garchomp can be OHKO'd by a NU even when it's holding a Yache Berry, there's no way it's Uber. Chocolate((Talk to Me|Look at My Contributions)) 19:44, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Once again, you are ignorant to the ways of the game. That is not a competitive situation. Castform will never realistically be able to kill Garchomp with Blizzard because it has 70 Speed and no defenses. Let's say I have a Garchomp out against something that can't do shit to anything to it, like a Blissey without Ice Beam (and yes, they are common, Flamethrower is often over Ice Beam). If you switch your Castform in, I will use Swords Dance and outrun/kill it with Earthquake. The only time Castform will EVER outrun Garchomp is with a Choice Scarf, in which case you will do 61.45% - 72.63% with Blizzard, factoring in Yache and a +SpA nature. The only time you'll ever have a shot at OHKOing a 4 HP/min SpD Garchomp with Blizzard is if you run Modest Choice Specs, which won't even do it 100% of the time and I will still outrun and kill you with Earthquake. Now, I'd also like to get into the fact that this isn't even how tiers work. Pokemon aren't rated for their sturdiness at all. It should be noted that Deoxys-A is an Uber even though it actually will die to virtually any attack with 50/20/20 defenses. This is because it outruns just about everything in OU save for Ninjask (it can even run Extremespeed for it) and it has amazing type coverage + 180 in both attacking stats. If your test, which consists of taking a faulty calculation out of context and throwing it out there, was the way Smogon tested for Uber status, Deoxys-A would be in OU. Even if Garchomp DID die to Castform Blizzard (it doesn't always even with specs, you clearly were fighting a Garchomp with crappy IVs/Nature/etc.), it still wouldn't be Uber because the reason for it being banned was that if it switched in on something that couldn't damage it, which is quite a few things, it was essentially guaranteed a kill because with a Swords Dance it could 2HKO anything in OU and nothing could reliably OHKO it through the Yache except for Choice Band Weavile who is risking getting killed by any one of Garchomp's attacks if it switches in on a Scarfer or Bander by mistake. Let's not even mention that it might be running SUBSTITUTE, in which case Weavile is completely screwed if it stays in. Your logic is incredibly faulty and if you continue editing Garchomp out of Ubers even after reading this, I can't imagine what anybody could say to convince you of anything at all. Lulz 23:40, 28 November 2008 (EST)
Only things is, it's not only one Garchomp. My Castform has OHKO'd 5 of them with just Blizzard. Chocolate((Talk to Me|Look at My Contributions)) 01:36, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Check the Archives. This has been discussed before. Just Because technically Fearow beats Heracross doesnt mean that Fearow is OU or Heracross Is UU. Tiers are not a "This pokemon trumps all below this category" Its a "Stats better, movepool better, typing better, therefore its the better pokemon"DCM((Shut the **** upSpy on My Edits))
But some of Garchomp's stats are horrible. Like its Special Defense. Chocolate((Talk to Me|Look at My Contributions)) 01:41, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
True. But Heracross has terrible stats too. But one stat doesnt sink a pokemon, and when you look at his movepool and what attacks he learns to benefit it, along with his typing, he is incredible, near brokenDCM((Shut the **** upSpy on My Edits))
Don't say true, it's not true. Garchomp's Special Defense is not horrible in the least, it's actually quite decent. Combined with 108 HP, 85 SD is very respectable. I made a very long summary of the overcentralizing aspects of Garchomp and it's not Uber because it has "horrible" special defense? Which you define as 85? I'd also like to add that you said SOME of its stats are horrible. Other than Special Defense and Special Attack (which it doesn't even need on its most broken set), which are horrible, none of its stats are below 95, so I don't see where you get "some of Garchomp's stats are horrible". It doesn't have a single stat that can be defined as horrible, and it isn't "near broken". It IS broken. Chocolate you cannot argue with my calculation, you are obviously battling on Wi-Fi where there are a lot more factors than there are on a battling simulator like Shoddy Battle, where these Pokemon are being tested at their full potential. Lulz 24:13, 2 December 2008 (EST)

(resetting indent) I will never agree with Garchomp being Uber no matter what. Chocolate((Talk to Me|Look at My Contributions)) 15:40, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Then you are not being objective and you shouldn't be editing a Wiki article. Lulz 4:18, 18 December 2008 (EST)
TBH, none of this is even fact. Tiers are nothing but a matter of opinion. People are bound to disagree with what Pokémon belong in what tiers, making it a matter of opinion. Simply, I don't believe in Garchomp's true strengths, and that's just my 2¢. I'd appreciate if we could just stop arguing about this. Chocolate (Merry Christmas!) 01:16 12/19/2008
Castform's Blizzard also 1HKOs 32/8 Rayquaza. I don't mean anything by saying this though - merely did the calc on a whim. RegalStar 06:03, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

EV spreads

I'm editing out any mention of (exact) EV spreads since for the most part they are opinionative. For example, someone mentioned a 126/126 EV spread for Infernape's offenses saying that is the standard. It is not, and its only the standard with those who are inexperienced and believe that Infernape would benefit more from this spread when it really doesn't ( 126 Atk EVs doesn't OHKO a Blissey and 24 EVs gives a good enough shot). Besides, it sounds too much like we're telling people what to use, and people do tailorr EV spreads for their specific needs.--Outrage DD 15:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, 126 ATK EVs is enough to OHKO Blissey with Life Orb (any Infernape running 126 / 126 without Life Orb is foolish) and it is the most common Infernape in Wi-Fi Competitive Battling. I'm not saying put it back in there or anything, just pointing that out Mr. Black 10:40, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Nicknames

Why the list of nicknames? Is there a point? — THE TROM — 02:07, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I am prepared to remove this section in a few days if no one comments, as I see no usefulness. Almost all of them are completely obvious, being derived from the Pokemon's names. — THE TROM — 06:05, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
These nicknames are frequently used in the metagame that's why its here.. I guess.--Kevzo8 06:10, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
How frequently? Theoretically anyone could come along with a shortened version of a Pokémon's name and put it up and we'd never know. I'm going to take it down. — THE TROM — 09:35, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Very Frequently. People dont call is Subsitute Focus Punch Tyranitar, they call it Tyraniboah.DCM((曲奇饼妖怪Spy on My Edits)) 11:33, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Trom means the shortening of Pokémon names, like Tyrani for Tyranitar. Tyraniboah is already in the page.--☆Kevzo8 11:41, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
"Twas an example".
I guess its just based off of syllables. TYraniBOAH.DCM((曲奇饼妖怪Spy on My Edits)) 01:11, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Reshuffling

Here's a brainwave I just had... should we organise the terms into sections, like "Move Combinations", "Pokémon Movesets", etc? We could put Tiers under a heading, and put UU, OU, NU, etc, as sub-headings? --Oz 17:15, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Go for it. It would make it more structured. —darklordtrom 03:49, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Trick Room

Well, if Trick Room Team is gonna redirect to here, we might as well put in something about Pokémon that exist to set up Trick Room. Only thing is, I don't have the slightest idea what the proper terminology for it would be. If anyone DOES know, might it possibly be added to the article? - unsigned comment from Missingno. Master (talkcontribs) 01:36, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Uber Garchomp

What about him makes so uber? He has smexy stats, but is easily killed by a good ice move. FFS, Blizzard Suicune can kill him. Ice Beam Frosslass can kill him. Even Shard Donphan raxxes him. - unsigned comment from Kobra (talkcontribs)

OK, couple things. One, this subject has been covered ad nauseum all over this very talk page. Two, new topics go at the very bottom of the talk page. Three, you gotta sign your talk page comments. And four, if you really do want to know why Garchomp is Uber, I suggest you ask the good people at Smogon.com. Garchomp's been extensively tested and proven to be uber. Besides, lots of people run Garchomp with Yache Berries, which cuts supereffective Ice damage. - unsigned comment from Missingno. Master (talkcontribs) 15:09, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

New Section

Hey, would it be possible to do articles similar to those on Smogon? That way, Bulbapedia users can post their own strategic movesets. We could also create our own tiers, as I have designed testing software for Pokémon. I would love to see strategy and tier pages on Bulbapedia, as it is a far better site than Smogon and a little better than Serebii. --Sceptile Maniac 11:54, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

The forums is a better place for this kind of thing. The thing about strategies is that they are subjective, and even in the Appendix namespace, the arguments they would cause would be too much. Smogon is all moderated and not freely editable like Bulbapedia. Still, Bulbapedia and Smogon are two very different sites, and saying that one is outright better than the other isn't really that true. Smogon is great for competitive help, while Bulbapedia is great for information. Also, regarding tiers, we actually already have a draft one. --SnorlaxMonster 12:50, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

npc-usage

Could we add examples of npc's using one of these stratigies, most notable would be the pwt, as there are a lot of notable 'lead Pokémon' and 'sweepers' and 'tanks' and 'walls' and many other tricks used by the gym leaders and champions? Nickvang (talk) 17:33, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

How about Misty's Choice Scarf-Thunderbolt-Ice Beam-Starmie? I'll add more examples on the talk page before deciding. Nickvang (talk) 17:35, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
Morty’s Wide Lens-Focus Blast-Gengar, Norman’s Giga Impact-Slaking and Fantina’s Curse-Will-O-Wisp-Pain Split-Shadow Sneak-Apicot Berry-Dusknoir. Nickvang (talk) 17:45, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
I think it seems like a good idea. --SnorlaxMonster 01:16, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Yeah but how to add? I was thinking about a 'hide and show' button and a link to the trainer. Let's start with a very specific one: the 'Scarfchomp', I got Giovanni in the world leaders or type specialist tournament as the only example. Nickvang (talk) 16:06, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Just add a new paragraph in the relevant section. Example:
Giovanni has a Garchomp with a Choice Scarf in his Pokémon World Tournament Type Expert Tournament and World Leaders Tournament teams.
Truant-Giga Impact and some of the others don't have names, so for now they wouldn't go on the page (although they could be added). --SnorlaxMonster 19:13, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
By the way, should we add extra information about the specific Pokémon to mention in-game variations of the mentioned role, or just indicate the Pokémon has the properties for it's role:
'Misty has a Starmie which knows Thunderbolt and Ice beam with a Choice Scarf in her Pokémon World Tournament Type Expert Tournament and World Leaders Tournament team as her lead Pokémon.' or 'Misty has a Starmie which knows Thunderbolt and Ice beam in her Pokémon World Tournament Type Expert Tournament and World Leaders Tournament team as her lead Pokémon.'. Nickvang (talk) 19:39, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
I'd go with the former. --SnorlaxMonster 02:58, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
What,what? wait... Where have all the examples gone? I just haven't been on Bulbapedia for a while now, but now that I went to take a look at this page, all of the npc-usage-examples have been gone! I went through the history of the page, but it is difficult, so I couldn't find anything. Nickvang (talk) 19:50, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Wondertomb + Freeze Shock

So I was battling Black Kyurem for the first time, and I sent out my Wondertomb. Kyurem used Freeze Shock. It hit and paralyzed Wondertomb. Should I add to the article that Freeze Shock can hit a Wondertomb? Pokegen master (talk) 02:04, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Black Kyurem has Teravolt, which negates Wonder Guard. --SnorlaxMonster 12:50, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Untouched

Untouched redirects here, and there is nothing on it in the entire article...
I would add it myself but I'm not sure what section to put it under. -EVsAndIVsaurs 15:34, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

The metagame typically refers to competitive battling, so it ended up being removed. If we do consider the metagame to be solely competitive battling, then it wouldn't go here, but I don't know where else to put it. Technically it would be possible to consider "collecting" a metagame, so I suppose we could make separate sections for competitive battling and Pokémon collection (which could include other terminology like "Living Pokédex"). --SnorlaxMonster 16:02, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

GrouSolar

Could we mention a Groudon that knows SolarBeam which goes in one hit every time due to Drought? --PalkiaMaster (talk) (contributions) (talk) 02:46, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

No, because Groudon is banned from the metagame. Wondertomb is borderline. Plus, never in my life have I heard anyone other than you use "GrouSolar." C$ (talk) 17:01, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

But Mega Charizard Y and Ninetales are not... And Grousolar was a term I came up with at the time and it sounds incredibly stupid --PalkiaMaster- 0100100100100000010000010100110100100000010001110100111101000100 21:29, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Wondereye/Wondertomb

Wouldn't they be listed in fan terminology since there's no way anyone can sneak them into the metagame (as the game prevents ridiculously hacked Pokémon from going into the metagame)? C$ (talk) 02:05, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Sturdinja?

(a.k.a. Sturdy + Shedinja)

Just stumbled across this term the other night. Doesn't sound like it's common, but it was conceived in Gen V and consists of:

  1. In a Double or Triple Battle, replace Shedinja's Wonder Guard with an other Ability (e.g. Simple Beam or Entrainment)
  2. Quickly Skill Swap Sturdy onto Shedinja. (in Gen VI, Carbink can have both Sturdy and Skill Swap.)

Shedinja is now immune to all direct damage, super effective or not, because Sturdy enables it to survive any attack with 1 HP if it's at full HP, and for Shedinja 1 HP is full HP so the ability always activates (even during multi-strike moves). Furthermore, if you paralyze Shedinja, it also becomes immune to Poison/Burn damage.

The given counterstrategies:

--Stratelier 19:25, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

  • I've heard of it as the "Invincible Shedinja trick". It might be notable, and it seems more notable than some of the other terms here. Nate the Great (talk) 23:11, 25 August 2014 (UTC)