User talk:Tiddlywinks/Archive 4

Archived talk

• User talk:Tiddlywinks/Archive 1 (through Sept 14, 2014)
• User talk:Tiddlywinks/Archive 2 (through Nov 5, 2015)
• User talk:Tiddlywinks/Archive 3 (through Feb 22, 2017)

Radiant Sun/Full Moon

Why do we have the Radiant Sun and Full Moon forms on Solgaleo/Lunala's pages and the form differences page? When I added Reshiram's and Zekrom's active forms to their pages it was removed because they aren't counted in the Pokédex like Xerneas's neutral mode, but yet Radiant Sun and Full Moon forms are also not counted in the Pokédex, yet are on their pages. --Celadonkey 15:06, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

In Solgaleo/Lunala's case, the official site called them forms. (Whether that should be OK may be arguable.) Tiddlywinks (talk) 16:05, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks. --Celadonkey 16:12, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Adding on, there are some Pokémon who have form differences recognized by the Pokédex but yet don't have their forms in the box at the top of the page (eg Furfrou). Should they be added? --Celadonkey 14:28, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Rotom is basically the high end of what we're willing to accomodate in the infobox. If there is a strongly compelling reason in the future, we might consider more, but something like Furfrou is simply impractical and relatively trivial—little benefit to worry about including it. It's fine with a gallery. Tiddlywinks (talk) 14:39, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Your help

..was unexpected in both "I didn't expect you to help" and "Why exactly did you do that" kind of way. So, thanks for the former, but for the latter, was that more an "oh my Nesci now just get over that class=expandable thing its bad nobody wants that", or rather an "i still have javascript disabled so i must've cleaned up and nothing more ♪♫♪♫"? Nescientist (talk) 10:25, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

It took me a bit to parse your actual question here...but yes, I don't enable Javascript if I don't need it, and all I saw was apparently pointless HTML tags in the diff. I might've said about as much except I try not to sound too much like an ass (because sometimes people just don't know), so instead of writing something like, "That's weird yo", I just simplified the reason very, very basically.

That said, the first table is super short, collapsing it seems a bit pointless. In fact, actually reading that one, IMO it'd be better to just make those nested bullet points instead of a whole table (like Experience#Gain formula); or just nest the technical note about Gen I-II specifically. Tiddlywinks (talk) 13:56, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Um, sorry for being cryptic, I thought you'd remember we already talked about that. Yo.

Thanks for the nested bullet points idea, sounds good, I'll try to see how that might work out. But for the other table, you accidently removed the expandable part (more or less), there wasn't a hidden anti-javascript agenda or something, right? (I know that HTML tags look weird—it's a workaround because for some reason, using * will always push everything down to the next line; so I'd prefer to restore that.) Nescientist (talk) 15:04, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Hiding the entire table isn't generally the smart thing in any case. If you're going to collapse a table, you can generally just do it right on the table in question. Tiddlywinks (talk) 15:23, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Z-Moves

I made a template at User:Celadonkey/Template:Z-Moves to assist with accessibility for Z-Move pages, similar to the "Variations of _" on a lot of move pages. I was wondering if it's ok for me to mainspace it and put it on all the Z-Move pages. --Celadonkey 18:05, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Lemme just ask, do you care if I (fairly) radically change the style and then mainspace it? Tiddlywinks (talk) 22:30, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

No, I don't mind. Go ahead! --Celadonkey 01:38, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

It looks awesome, thanks man. But I really think that having an MS for the species Z-Moves would be beneficial. Is there any way we can still implement it? --Celadonkey 14:55, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

They are pretty. But they make that part relatively big too. I don't think it's so bad since it's all summarized on the Z-Move page too already. Tiddlywinks (talk) 14:59, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Aether House

If you don't like my edit, find some other way to deal with misleading information that could give people the wrong idea of when Porygon could be collect. I am stating this from an intelligent standpoint, not to show any rudeness. -Tyler53841 (talk) 19:37, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Never mind, did not see that. -Tyler53841 (talk) 19:51, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

RE:Moving pages

Can you move the page Gracidea (Sinnoh) to Gracidea Garden. After duscussion and waiting a long time, other users agreed and no one opposed the move. See Talk:Gracidea (Sinnoh) for further details. Or can you contact an Editorial Board member, as said on the Bulbapedia:Editorial Board page. Jeangabin666 (talk) 19:18, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Verity Lakefront

You changed Verity Lakefront's text box back to a default text box after I changed it to a route text box. It is stated in the list of routes on Bulbapedia that the Sinnoh lakefronts are routes. It even says on the lakefront page of Bulbapedia that the lakefronts are routes. The three lakefronts are routes, thus deserving a route text box. --RedHailfire (talk) 22:07, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

"List of routes" is not the criteria for deciding whether a location should have a "route" infobox. I'd be hard pressed to define exactly what those criteria are because there are a few places that are not numbered routes where we use a route infobox (and I'm OK with those), but if you want me to, I can try to figure out what the specifics are/should be. For now, though, please trust me that the lakefronts are regular locations, not routes. Tiddlywinks (talk) 22:24, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

The lakefront page also states that these areas are routes. Also, if these lakefronts don't get route infoboxes, then why does Spring Path get a route infobox? The lakefronts are much more like routes, for most of the lakefronts actually have tall grass. Spring Path is such an obscure location. --RedHailfire (talk) 22:33, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

To attempt some loose/theoretical explanations, "Spring Path" closely suggests something like a route, so it was perhaps easy to just put Route infobox there. A "lakefront" sounds more like a simple location, however.

This is not strictly justification, but, again, explanation for the current state of things (i.e., a basic answer to your "why"). The presence or absence of tall grass also doesn't really make or break a route, because plenty of locations (like the lakes themselves) have grass, and some routes don't (e.g., Kalos Route 1).

Sort of like I said above, it may be that we should solidify some criteria for what locations deserve Route infobox and which ones deserve Infobox location.

Let me ask (and try to answer this as earnestly as you can): why exactly did you change the template? Was it strictly because there was a route infobox template, and those pages weren't using it even though that's what you thought they were? Or was it more because you wanted to see the connecting locations like routes show them (and thankfully for you, the lakefronts are identified as "routes" in some places)? Tiddlywinks (talk) 23:50, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Another path in Sinnoh, called Seabreak Path, is a path and is considered a route, similar to Spring Path, yet Seakbreak Path doesn't get a route infobox. Seabreak Path is also on the list of routes here on Bulbapedia. I may fix the infobox later, since Seabreak Path is considered a route and a "path." I adjusted the lakefront infoboxes purely because the lakefronts are considered routes, and route infoboxes belong to routes. It makes sense to give a route an infobox literally called a "route infobox." I thought it was just common knowledge. --RedHailfire (talk) 00:55, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

I also wasn't suggesting that all routes have tall grass, but most of them do. --RedHailfire (talk) 00:58, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

The contrast of Spring Path and Seabreak Path perhaps gives you your best answer: there probably wasn't any rigorous thought about it all. This is a public wiki. It can be easy for certain "habits" to start small and slowly spread, very possibly via different people, and without perfect rhyme/reason. Tiddlywinks (talk) 01:08, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Do you approve of my change of the Seabreak Path infobox? --RedHailfire (talk) 01:22, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm basically leaving it all alone at the moment. Tiddlywinks (talk) 01:23, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Another template I thought might be useful

I'm not sure if there's a need for it, but I made a template User:Celadonkey/Template:Spritebox/MS/1 for menusprites to be used in the sprites section of a Pokemon. I was thinking there would be another for Gen IV, Gen V, Gen VI, and Gen VII Pokemon. This one would be used for Gen 1-3 Pokemon. Is there any that needs to be changed and would there be a need for it in the mainspace? --Celadonkey 21:44, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

I just realized... Would there be any way to do Gen I and Gen II menu sprites? I know that there are just general sprites like "Ball" and "Quadruped". --Celadonkey 22:00, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

Just so you both know, the old menu sprites and their Pokémon are listed here. Eridanus (talk) 22:26, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

This is awesome! I'll try to add this in. - unsigned comment from Celadonkey (talk • contribs)

All updated! Thanks. --Celadonkey 23:53, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

Maybe.

One problem about the template is that it basically requires changing when there's a new generation, when it's generally been our goal recently to avoid that in templates with such wide use as all Pokemon.

You can keep it around, but it's not something that can be signed off on easily given its wide effect. Tiddlywinks (talk) 16:58, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

True, true. Is there any way I can rework this so that it would not have that problem? --Celadonkey 18:23, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

If you want to try, you're welcome to. Tiddlywinks (talk) 18:34, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Alright, but how would I go about doing that? --Celadonkey 18:59, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

I don't know how much you know about templates, but if you need to, I'd suggest checking out your welcome template links or introductions on Wikipedia or elsewhere. Then, you can try looking at what we do with other templates that are designed to avoid this, like dex, availability, and sprites on Pokemon pages.

Beyond that, I don't know how to tell you exactly what to do without just as well doing it myself (which I won't). Tiddlywinks (talk) 19:21, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

I had an idea... What if there were templates for each box I already have (for example, a Gen I menu sprite template) and then those templates would be put together on a "master template" of sorts to be used on the Pokémon's page to make the full chart? This way, instead of all of the templates being modified every time a new generation comes, the sub templates would be adjusted appropriately, or if a new gen has completely new menu sprites, a new sub template would be created and added to the master template. --Celadonkey 15:44, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

(resetting indent) Actually, it might be a better idea to build the sub-templates on the Pokémon page itself instead of using a master template, because with a master template, we'd need different master templates depending on the game the Pokémon was introduced in - a different template would be needed for Bulbasaur and Dedenne, if that makes any sense. --Celadonkey 15:56, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Does this count?

I found a way to make Rockruff's Pokédex Entry from the anime Japanese. The translation in also there. does this count? - unsigned comment from Hamfart (talk • contribs)

I don't think we add dex entries until they're dubbed. On that understanding, I don't think it should be added.

However, I don't really know the anime. You may wish to direct your question to a staff member who's more familiar instead. Tiddlywinks (talk) 16:08, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Archives

Am I allowed to move my archive back to my own page? I archived my talk page for no reason and want it back to my regular talk page. --Celadonkey 22:24, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

If your new page hadn't really been touched, that might be an interesting question, but since it has, it's kind of too late to ask. Tiddlywinks (talk) 22:28, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Oh, rats. So I can't copy the code from the archive and place it at the top of my talk page? --Celadonkey 22:42, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

That entirely defeats the purpose of maintaining the history. Tiddlywinks (talk) 22:44, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Ah, alright. Thanks anyways. --Celadonkey 22:52, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Weather Trio

The page Weather trio should be moved to Super-ancient Pokémon, an official term. It's been discussed on the talk page since early 2015, but we haven't gotten any response from the staff, but yet... Ataro has made a page Super-ancient Pokémon (Adventures). Can it be moved? --Celadonkey 13:51, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

It sounds to me like you want to talk to Ataro rather than me. Tiddlywinks (talk) 00:31, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

I dunno, I know that the comics are Ataro's thing and this isn't really a comics thing. I may bring it up to SnorlaxMonster, or someone. Thanks for the help. --Celadonkey 02:00, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Gen VII Images

Hey, I was wondering about how to upload images to the Archives. I have a few images for moves from Generation VII, and I am unable to upload them to the Archives. It says I'm not yet a confirmed user. I saw that you are active on the Archives, so I thought that you might know how to upload these images. --RedHailfire (talk) 03:41, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

The Archives has an autoconfirmed status similar to Bulbapedia. The long and short of it is, if you look around (which may not be an entirely trivial task, but also isn't impossible), you should be able to find some things you can edit/improve on the Archives to earn that status and be able to make uploads.

That said, do be aware that, in order to upload images from 3DS games, you have to have permission first. Tiddlywinks (talk) 13:45, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Which page to put name locations on

Hey there! You recently reverted an edit I did to the Gen II base stats structure page, citing that information of default names for Pokémon doesn't fit there (presumably as it's not part of the 32-byte structure). So as not to get in an edit war, I figure we'll hash it out before doing anything. I'd argue it does fit on the base stats structure page, as it - as all the other properties on the page - is something common to and used for all Pokémon of the species. I'd go as far as to say the page shouldn't be about one single data structure (which the page title doesn't really imply, after all), but rather the how base stats of the Pokémon are stored in general.

Putting it on the character encoding page, as you suggested, makes no sense at all: the name data has nothing to do with the encoding of the characters at all, and isn't used in any related contexts. Seeing as the name data is used when creating a Pokémon and on summary screens, just like the rest of the base statistics... I'd say that's the best place. Not putting it anywhere isn't an option either, as that'd simply be withholding potentially useful information, which we of course don't want to do. What do you think? LpSamuelm (talk) 23:27, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Like you say: the list of names is very plainly a very different thing from the list of base stats. You're grasping at reasons to shoehorn that list into the page, when the only truly logical approach is to limit it to a single, readily identifiable structure. Based on what you're saying, we may as well have Gen III's base stats structure and Pokedex data structures on the same page; they're at least based on the same indices, which is basically equivalent to your argument for the list of names.

The best thing you could really argue for would perhaps be a different page altogether, one that could reasonably mention all the data relating to species. That seems like a bit of a weird idea to me, though, so I'm very unsure how such a page would be made, personally.

Anyway, I don't see the base stats structure page as being an appropriate place for it at all. If you have any better suggestions, I'm all ears. I'm basically okay with just saying it fits nowhere and removing it altogether if you think that's best, too. Tiddlywinks (talk) 00:13, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't at all follow your extrapolation here. Not sure where the "like you say" part comes from, either - I'm not "grasping", it's quite logical. Here's an a bit more structured summary of how and why they strongly relate:

• The "base stats" for a Pokémon is data that's used in any combination of a few ways. Not all of them have to be true for a point of data to be considered "base stats", as is apparent from their inclusion in the main structure. The ways are:
  • Informing choices when constructing a Pokémon (wild held item, gender ratio)
  • Basic, unchanging values for how the Pokémon acts (types, base stats, egg cycles, dimensions of sprite, growth rate, egg groups, TM/HM flags, catch rate, Exp. yield)
  • Basic, unchanging values used on the Pokémon's summary screen (types, base stats, dimensions of sprite)
  • And yes, even used in the species's Pokédex entry: the sprite dimensions byte.
• In comparison, the default name of a Pokémon is used in the following ways:
  • Informing choices when constructing a Pokémon - all wild Pokémon get their names from the list.
  • Basic, unchanging value for how the Pokémon acts - if the Pokémon's name differs from the species, it is considered nicknamed, which has an effect when the Pokémon was received in a trade.
  • Basic, unchanging value displayed on the Pokémon's summary screen - the species name is simply displayed under the nickname.
  • In addition, it is just like the sprite dimension byte used in the species's Pokédex entry.

That's 4/4 of the purposes filled.

It's not really possible to, as you did, extrapolate my argument to combining the Pokédex data (which I was looking at just earlier today for Gen II; should make a nice new page) page with the base stats structure page, as the Pokédex data has no actual impact on the Pokémon. If you edit the Pokédex data, all Pokémon of that species look and act the same, with no difference even to the summary screen. Of course, as I mentioned, "removing it altogether" is not an option - skipping out on providing real information, even if it were to prevent meta-level "shoehorning" (which I really do contest), goes against the very purpose of a wiki. LpSamuelm (talk) 01:43, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

You're talking about base stats as a very abstract concept.

The page Pokémon base stats data structure in Generation II is explicitly about a specific structure, about a contiguous set of data (a list) with entries corresponding to different Pokemon.

The list of names is a WHOLLY different list. It's not logical to conflate both of those things on a page called "Pokémon base stats data structure". It's TWO structures.

Tiddlywinks (talk) 01:52, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

They're two different contiguous data masses in memory, sure, but they're used in the same contexts. I say "Pokémon base stats data structure" can just as well mean "the structure of Pokémon base stats" (which may well include "the data is structured as part of these two parts of memory") as it can, as you assume, "this specific contiguous structure type in memory". Very logical, all in all.

Really - the page in question is the absolute best fit for information on this, hands-down. I'd say it's a really good fit, but even if you don't agree with that, you'd be hard pressed to find a page where it would fit better. LpSamuelm (talk) 02:03, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

The page isn't about context. It's about a specific data structure. The one on the page. Not the list of names.

...I'll go ahead and ask (even though the answer would seem obvious if you're delving this stuff at all): Do you have any experience with computer programming? Because as someone who does, I can tell you, the page title just is NOT interpretable the way you want it to be. (And those pages are by their very nature incredibly technical, meaning that is the most reasonable way to interpret it.) It's one structure. Not anything kinda with the same feel. Tiddlywinks (talk) 02:10, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I am a programmer. And I really, really, don't appreciate the condescending tone you're taking. That someone doesn't agree with you does not mean they don't understand. Frankly, the fact that you choose to ask despite saying "the answer would seem obvious" tells me the entire point of the question is to be condescending, which... well, I'm not going to dignify that with further argument.

Now that that's out of the way: I'm definitely qualified to say that yes, it is interpretable that way. Obviously it is, since I'm interpreting that way. It seems to be subjective, though, since you don't agree - you're taking it as a "data structure" (as what you'd call a struct in C, for example), but seeing as the page is called "Pokémon base stats data structure" and not "The Pokémon base stats data structure", it may just as well be taken as "the structure of Pokémon base stats data".

You seem to be dodging a certain question a bit: what page makes for a better fit than that one? LpSamuelm (talk) 02:23, 31 March 2017 (UTC)