Talk:Zinnia

Aster's namesake

In the climax of the Delta Episode, right before Rayquaza is summoned, Zinnia describes how Aster is named after someone dear to her who passed away. In the Magma/Aqua Hideout she describes Aster (the Whismur) as her "daughter", and the revelation at Sky Pillar makes it slightly unclear whether, when she speaks to Aster at various points in the game, she's addressing the actual Pokémon or Aster's namesake.

I don't want to add anything too speculative since the scene is extremely ambiguous, but I do think that some of the explicit facts about Aster (namely, that she's named after a deceased character) deserve to be mentioned on the page outside of the quotes themselves. Arguably Aster might even deserve a section on the page, the same way [AZ]'s Floette does. —Andy^P_K^M_N (talk) 01:41, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

i think it should be a trivia thing; considering that Zinnia said that she 'lost her' it's evident that she's speaking of Aster's namesake since Aster is directly next to her. My suggestion is a sister or daughter, but to remove speculation it's simpler to point out in trivia something along the lines of 'Although Aster is almost always beside her, Zinnia sometimes speaks about having lost Aster, suggesting that she may have named the Whismur after someone close to her who died prior to the events of the Game.' So it's based more factually than theoretically. All in all, i do agree that it is something noteworthy Azure/ChromeVoid42 (talk) 20:08, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree on making a separate page or at least a subsection for the original Aster and all info on her, especially since she has also been mentioned in the Adventures manga (complete with a vague picture). The current blurb about her definitely needs editing: from Zinnia's dialogue, it's impossible that the original Aster was her daughter ("Ever since I was a little girl, I have always turned my eyes up to the sky." + "... I used to watch the stars like this all the time... Together with Aster. We were always together." means they've been watching the stars together since they were little and Aster must have been the same age or older than Zinnia).

Azalee (talk) 20:10, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Those quotes are very far apart and not explicitly (or necessarily reasonably) connected like you want to think they are. At the very least: when Zinnia says they were "always" together, that could easily be "always, since Aster was born", not "always, for my whole life". Tiddlywinks (talk) 21:01, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

If we're going to argue semantics, you wouldn't say "We were always together" when you're doing something with your baby daughter — the baby doesn't have a lot of choice on the matter. Zinnia does playfully refer to the current Aster as her daughter, but never to the deceased one (for that matter, it's never even stated whether the deceased Aster was a human, though Adventures went that way); that's a far bigger logic jump to make. I went ahead and edited Pokémon!Aster's blurb to make that clearer, since I noticed after commenting that the last talks on this page were almost a year old... Azalee (talk) 21:18, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't see that it's important that the baby have any any choice in the matter for someone to reasonably word it "We were always together". If I had a child and I raised her and cared for her every day and then—let's say she got sick and died. I wouldn't have any problem at all saying "We were always together" about that.

You also say she refers to the current (Whismur) Aster as her daughter, but that's plainly ridiculous: a Pokemon can't be her daughter. Either it's 1) affectionate, or 2) there's more going on, and a bunch of other clues point very strongly to "2": Zinnia had a daughter who Aster the Whismur occasionally acts as a stand-in for. Tiddlywinks (talk) 21:32, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm asking what your other clues are. There is nothing in Zinnia or anyone's dialogue that says the deceased Aster was her daughter; it's too big of an assumption. We know next to nothing about Zinnia and even less about Aster. She could have been another Pokémon, she could have been a friend or another family member, or, as in Adventures canon, the previous Lorekeeper. As discussed above, I think the best way to follow the community guidelines and be neutral and keep to fact is to say the only things known for sure: 1) she addresses the Pokémon as her daughter, 2) the Pokémon seems to be named after a close one whom she has a lost. I thought my edit was neutral enough, do you have any problems with it? Anyway anything longer doesn't belong in the Pokémon's blurb — perhaps the many theories and possibilities about who Aster may have been can go in the trivia section, under the Adventures mention. Let's not get into an edit war over this.

(And for why Zinnia would call a Pokémon her daughter, a lot of NPCs refer to Pokémon as their 'babies', such as the Fans class, and it's not uncommon for people to call themselves their pet's mother in real life either.)Azalee (talk) 21:41, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

It's easy to call a pet (or Pokemon) something like your "baby" or maybe even your "little girl" or something, but the same thing does not happen with "son" or "daughter". Those are totally different.

Evidence, then...

• That Aster is human and not a Pokemon: "... See that, Aster? You always wanted to watch them, right? The Litleonids." Sure, supposedly you can understand Pokemon and all, but that's definitely more a sentiment a person would have expressed directly to Zinnia.
• That the person is her daughter: A) again, "daughter", from Zinnia, clearly suggests Whismur is a stand-in for her daughter; and B) "Mum"/"Mama" from Whismur. Alone either of those might leave room for just Zinnia being weird or something; but together it's entirely reasonable to assume they have real meaning.

These all paint a reasonable, clear picture. Why would it reasonably not be her daughter? (By in-game canon, that is; the manga and games are not strictly related.)

Sure, if you want to be pedantic, it's definitely not a certainty. But we've shown the basic evidence for the claim made; people are entirely free to make up their own minds. In the meantime, we shouldn't be obliged to skirt a plain conclusion. Tiddlywinks (talk) 22:16, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Ah, I'd forgotten about the Litleonids quote, I concede that, but not the second point (since, again, she's talking to the Pokémon and not about the original Aster). Like you said: it's not a certainty, and clearly it's not a plain conclusion since a lot of people came to a different conclusion — including the Adventures scenarist — and even the people above who thought it might be a daughter think it's too ambiguous to state anything. If there's room for people to spontaneously understand something else from the situation, then it's not hard, certain fact, and I think the article's phrasing should reflect that, like in all other ambiguous hints in canon (for instance, the possibility of games!Silver being games!Giovanni child, until HGSS confirmed it). "Please only submit information you know to be accurate, and adhere to a neutral point of view. Do not misrepresent rumors, misconceptions or opinions as fact."

What about something like "Zinnia addresses Aster like a mother would her daughter, blabla, Aster seems to be named after someone whom Zinnia loved dearly "lost".", and perhaps in the Trivia section, "The identity of Aster's namesake and the circumstances of her death are unclear. She was someone dear to Zinnia, such as a daughter or a friend. In the Adventures manga, Aster's namesake was the previous Lorekeeper."?Azalee (talk) 23:49, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

The people above are irrelevant to the point you're trying to make. They didn't know about (or talk about) Mum/Mama; I only added that this November. Heck, I already acknowledged it's iffy with only the "daughter" mention.

You also have no proof that the Adventures "scenarist" made up Zinnia's backstory based on their best guess as to what the game was trying to suggest.

You say you don't concede the second point because she's talking to Whismur and not the "original" Aster, but...that seems to me a ridiculous thing to say. (No offense.) As in, I don't understand how you are/can be understanding that in such a way—in any way but the way I'm understanding it; and I hardly even know how to try to explain my view to you or what mistake you're making/how. ..All I can say is: again, it's plainly ridiculous to call a Pokemon your daughter. The (IMO only) reasonable explanation is that Zinnia named Whismur after her daughter; and that's why she calls it her "daughter". (And, once more, yes, all by itself that's not wholly convincing; but it's not all by itself: the game also makes Whismur say "Mum"/"Mama", which should really drive the point home.) Tiddlywinks (talk) 00:09, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

And in my opinion and many others', it's not the only reasonable interpretation at all, hence the reason we're having this conversation at all! You're surprised that I saw it another way, but I was very surprised that some people thought the first Aster was her daughter. In the Japanese version, one of the ways she says she loved Aster is "daisuki datta", which is NOT how one would talk about a daughter. To me, the ridiculous thing (no offense) is to state that and act like that is the only valid interpretation of the game's ambiguousness, when very, very little is stated on the topic. There are many people and many views on this, and it's hard to completely confirm or invalidate any of them. I'm really not comfortable with letting the character's article stating anything like an objective truth when none of the points you mention seem like proof to me, aside from the fact that Aster was most likely a human. It is only your opinion, and not a neutral statement of the few facts we do have for sure. Azalee (talk) 00:29, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't consider myself qualified to say how likely a mother might be to use 'daisuki' to say she loved her daughter...but right after that she also says 'kokoro kara aishiteita', which I suppose is more "acceptable". In that context, then, I think 'daisuki' would have to get a pass; you generally try not to be too repetitive in writing (I'm fairly sure this is true enough of Japanese or English), so it shouldn't be unreasonable to use 'daisuki' first.

You're railing against this "objective truth". From that tone, I would have to imagine this page said "Aster is named after Zinnia's dead daughter". It most certainly does not, though. The page says, "Aster seems to have been named after a [dead] daughter of Zinnia's". There is a world of difference there. It is not a problem for the page to say that, not when the evidence it is based off of is stated next.

And, again: with all the evidence currently being discussed, you are the only person who is currently saying that you don't accept that Aster was named after Zinnia's daughter. Of course, by the same token, I am also the only person saying it was her daughter. But my point is: your claims that "many others" believe exactly as you do are not currently supported. Please stop trying to claim authority in numbers. Tiddlywinks (talk) 00:57, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

They didn't have to repeat it; it seems really, really odd to me for a mother talking about her child. I'm not saying the article should say Aster couldn't possibly be Aster's daughter — it can if you reach the way you do — but I disagree that "Aster seems to have been named after a [dead] daughter of Zinnia's", and I have given you my reasons as for why. I'm just trying to reach a compromise because I don't agree with your view anymore than you do with mine and while the current phrasing on the article could indeed be even worse, it is not neutral enough in my opinion and does not accurately reflect the ambiguity of the situation. You yourself admit that your claims are not any more supported by numbers than mine, so can't we find a phrasing that satisfies both of us and is — again — factual only?Azalee (talk) 01:21, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

I'd actually be okay with "Aster may have been named after [...]" (without the emphasis). But I'm not really okay with offering other alternatives when the only evidence ("daughter", "Mum"/"Mama") points to a daughter. People can doubt that evidence, but presenting some other alternative (like "friend") in the face of that evidence is just terribly awkward (at best). Tiddlywinks (talk) 01:26, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Upon further thought, it might be possible to avoid awkwardness like: "Aster seems to have been named after someone close to Zinnia who has since died. This person may have been a daughter, as suggested by [...]". Does that sound better to you? Tiddlywinks (talk) 01:37, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

That's what I was aiming for, yes x'D Something like that sounds a lot more neutral to me. I guess indeed there isn't particular evidence pointing to, specifically, a friend (could really be anyone — I just wanted to put emphasis on the fact that there are other possibilities than a daughter). (I still don't agree on that that's "the only evidence" but I'll let it go :p) "Someone close to" is the way I'd phrase it too, yes! If you don't agree with my first edit, do you want to be the one to edit a new description, and I'll check afterwards if the phrasing sounds good to me as well? (I'm going offline for now anyway, sorry!) - unsigned comment from Azalee (talk • contribs)

B/W reference

In Granite Cave, she mentions truths and ideals- is this a reference to Reshiram & Zekrom? It seems so, but publishing speculation is not acceptable. Would it be appropriate to link the B/W articles there, or am I making references in my head? Partone (talk) 08:54, 22 December 2014 (UTC)Partone

This certainly is a direct reference to B/W, actually. -AuraGuardian- (talk) 06:34, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Zinnia's Grandmother

Can we get a page on this ASAP? She does play a pretty heavy part in the Delta episode, by giving vital information, and she's related to the last Lorekeeper, Zinnia, while also happening to be both a Move Tutor and the only and last tutor to re-teach Rayquaza Dragon Ascent, which is pretty important, as it's needed for Ray to ME. Additionally, she is one of the remaining Draconids, so she needs a page. (Was looking for certain quotes said in-game for the DE that only come from this character, so when I couldn't find it, I was disappointed.) -AuraGuardian- (talk) 06:32, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Parallel Hoenn

I find it strange that something Zinnia mentioned as profound as "A Hoenn region that's almost exactly like this one we live in" is never really explored in the article. The only time it is mentioned is in the direct quote from her. It's a very strange thing for her to bring up, and has some far-reaching implications. As is linked in the article, it may indeed be a reference to the original Ruby and Sapphire versions, and in this case it is the first time (as far as I know) that a character seems aware of the remake versions being distinct in some way from the originals. It would also imply that OR/AS aren't meant to be simply remakes of R/S, but also that they take place in a parallel but equally valid universe. This raises questions of not only when the games take place relative to each others' timelines, but in what universe? What is different about the Kalos region in the old universe, if the great war never happened, and the ultimate weapon never constructed? Does this not deserve further investigation? Though, I'm afraid all we can do right now is speculate. MofoMan2000 (talk) 05:40, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

I guess there are some blurbs about it in other articles, but usually only a short sentence. I'm more concerned with this article as it is now. MofoMan2000 (talk) 06:01, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Zinnia's...not grandmother

In the English script, Zinnia calls the old Draconid woman in Meteor Falls "Grannie", but in the Japanese script, she calls her ババさま, which is much more likely to be a respectful address for an old woman than a way of calling one's own grandmother. It's harder to argue, but in English, "Grannie" really doesn't have to refer to one's own grandmother either. I think we should remove the claims that that old woman is Zinnia's grandmother.

This seems like it could easily attract argument, so I wanted to check here first if anyone else has any thoughts on the matter? Tiddlywinks (talk) 08:11, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

If there's not enough info to confirm a closer relation between them, I agree that simply mentioning her as "[the] old Draconid woman" is enough. SatoMew2 (talk) 14:08, 5 November 2015 (UTC)