Talk:Twineedle (move)

Animation

The animation used for the attack is WAY beyond outdated. Can someone at the very least upgrade it to a D/P/Pt picture? --Jonouchi 23:11, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Don't be generation-ist. It's fine. At least it shows the move. PH1RESTRIKE 23:14, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

We do need a new one though, the sprites are horrible. The Dark Fiddler - Nos hablamos? 23:15, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I think Gen IV animations are horrible... anyways I'll upload an updated picture of the attack. hfc2X 06:45, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Gen III good enough for you? — THE TROM — 09:37, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Poison

In the trivia it says it is the only move that can poison steel types, but beforehand in the article it says since generation III, it cannot poison steel and poison types. Which one is it ?--Wowy 07:53, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm guessing both: it can in GenII, but not in GenIII and beyond. Perhaps the trivia section needs a "In Generation II" qualifier. --DarkfireTaimatsu 07:59, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

The trivia states it can inflict poison despite being a bug-type move. the article above is stating that it could poison steel-types (despite the type), but was changed in Gen III.--FF(edits•talk) 08:01, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Or in other words: It can poison steel types because it is a bug type move. but couldn't from Gen III and beyond--FF(edits•talk) 08:02, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Poison (Multihit)

Since Twineedle hits twice, does each hit have 20% chance of Poisoning, or is chance of Poisoning calculated once? --TintedLens 06:35, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Conflicting Information about Second Hit in Gen II and Gen IV

Recently, a large edit was made to the Substitute page, making it considerably more thorough about how it has changed between Generations. However, it mentioned some things about Twineedle that either aren't mentioned or contradict information on this page. Specifically, that in Generation II, the move will not end if the first hit breaks a Substitute (this article says this behavior began in Gen III). Additionally, it says that in both Generations II and IV (but not III), the poison check is performed only once "at the beginning of the move" (presumably this means the 1st hit but I'm not completely sure). Because of this, if Twineedle's first hit breaks a Substitute, the second hit will not cause poison in those games.

Would someone be able to help verify what the correct behavior is in these cases (potentially both with and without the target having a Substitute in the second case) so we can figure out the specifics? VioletPumpkin (talk) 23:52, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm on it. See below. Nescientist (talk) 16:38, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Correcting information

Ok, three things I'm willing to change (though maybe not at the same time):

Poisoning chance

UPC says that the poisoning effect only occurs once in Gen I-III. I had a look at GenI+II disassemblies, and I'm convinced. (It's really scattered in multiple places and would take a decent paragraph to explain in detail, but the most important once are here and here). Contrary to what we currently say, the poisoning chance is just 20% (as if it only hit once; Azure Heights agrees); I can go into detail on request. I'm not currently 100% sure for post-Gen III behavior, but I assume you could easily find out just visually in-game.

Substitute poisoning

I had almost given up finding an error at our Substitute page, but Twineedle interaction it is; the poison check certainly isn't performed at the beginning of the move, and the substitute should be able to break on the first hit. I'm not sure about why Substitute says Twineedle "reverts to Gen II behavior" in Gen IV, but as it's tagged for proof anyway, I think it's adequate to remove that as well.

King's Rock interaction

As can be seen at where I already linked above, the Gen II King's Rock effect is applied outside of the multiple hit loop, once. (This applies to all multi-strike moves. I wouldn't technically know if it changed later, but honestly, I had always thought a potential ~70% flinch chance due to Serene Grace and an item was highly unlikely.)

I'm trying to see if I can test some things in-game somehow. In the meantime, if anyone has any additional information, there's plenty space below! Nescientist (talk) 16:38, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Just tested in Gen IV and Gen V, where I confirmed that the target was indeed sometimes poisoned after the first hit, and they could be poisoned if the first hit broke a substitute (respectively). The numbers also point to a 20% chance per strike. I'll change that. That should resolve the above section.

(Note: I'm not gonna change King's Rock in that same edit; I'm planning to do that for all multi-strikes moves when I have some time, and maybe have tested some more. Unless, of course, someone else is faster.) Nescientist (talk) 18:00, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

I was able to confirm that each hit of a multi-strike move is affected by King's Rock in Gen IV. Without Skill Link, it's really hard to test prior to Gen IV, but luckily, we have UPC, who not only agree to what I said about Gen II, but also say it already changed in Gen III. So, I'm gonna change that when I've made up my mind on where to include which technicalities. Nescientist (talk) 17:28, 8 May 2017 (UTC)