Talk:Tier/Archive 2

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we need some help

We need to make some real big changes like empoleon should be in OU from all the resistances it has, and some other changes.- unsigned comment from Nido3000 (talk • contribs)

Garchomp being Uber will never be true. It is counter-able by even some NUs, something that no Uber could ever be. ^Chocolate 13:27, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Been on Smogon lately? Garchomp is uber. It was tested by experts and its status was voted upon. It was all very professionally done. - unsigned comment from Missingno. Master (talk • contribs) 20:05, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Then explain how my "NU" Castform can kick its carcus hard with Blizzard. ^Chocolate 01:07, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Or why Shedinja eats Kyogre. Scarfcrosspwns 05:03, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Uhhh

Those lists look so ugly. Mind I try to cook up some code to replace them with a table?Θρtιmαtum♏_Talk|Links 00:51, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Appropriate Edits

Quick note, at the top of the page it still says 6 tiers when there's only 4. Mr. Black 09:40, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I have a lot of experience Competitive Battling, in both OU and UU environments. Please take my suggestions into consideration. I am most concerned with the difference between certain Pokémon as UU or higher.

Tentacruel needs to move up, out of UU. It is too good for UU, a powerful Special wall with a nice SPD and SpA stat to back it up. It's very difficult for a UU to KO Tentacruel with Special, much like it's near impossible for an OU to KO a Blissey with Special. However a Blissey-like Pokémon in UU is not desirable, the common counter for Blissey being mixed sweepers and mixed sweepers being rare and considerably weaker in UU. And the fact that it outclasses basically every other potential UU special wall warrants its promotion out of UU. Some sites put it at OU, I personally would say BL, either way I don't mind but it should not stay in UU.

I have a huge list of BLs that should be UU, so please bear with me. With all of these I am not saying they suck, if it sounds that way don't take it that way, I'm just saying how they fit into UU.

Aggron, Articuno, Bastiodon, Blastoise, Blaziken, Cloyster, Dewgong, Drifblim, Exeggutor, Golduck, Golem, Hitmontop, Hitmonchan, Kabutops, Kingler, Lanturn, Lapras, Nidoking, Ninetales, Omastar, Probopass, Walrein.

Tbh, I have no idea why half of these are in the BL list. I'll start with these - Aggron, Probopass and Bastiodon. Their unfortunate type combination makes them 4x weak to Ground and Fighting, two of the most predominant physical attacking types. Consider that many physical attackers carry either Close Combat or Earthquake, or in absence of Close Combat, Brick Break or Superpower, and any of these moves is an almost guaranteed OHKO. This hurts even more when the 3 Pokémon's stats basically only allow them to work as physical walls or physical tanks.

Lanturn, Nidoking, Omastar, Dewgong, Kingler, Golduck and Golem I hope I don't have to explain. I will make a quick note that it makes no sense for Nidoking to be BL when Nidoqueen is UU, considering Nidoqueen is widely considered better and actually gets used occasionally.

Omastar and Kabutops fall under the same category so I'll explain them next. Again, their weakness to Fighting AND Ground hurts, but it doesn't help that they're also weak to Electric which is possibly the most common special attacking type along with Ice. They have potential as Rain Dance sweepers, yes, but that's about it since they're both certainly not doing any physical walling with their only other good stat, due to the aforementioned weaknesses in the physical area.

Cloyster has huge DEF but no reliable recovery move and not enough HP to support it. It is a DEF wall, but nothing too strong for UU like Bronzong or Skarmory. And once again, it's weakness to Fighting damages its capability a bit, as well as weakness to Rock this time which is just as common a physical type and, gives 1/4 HP damage from Stealth Rock.

Walrein and Lapras both have good stats all round but don't excel in anything. Well, Walrein excels at tanking in Hail, but that requires continuous hail which is only possible in UU by Snover. Both Pokémon have a weakness to Rock, Fighting and Electric, very common attacking types on the physical and special end of the spectrum, and they take 1/4 HP from Stealth Rock. They also lacking a reliable recovery move to support their wall stats.

Being Legendary, one would immediately call me insane to put Articuno in UU. But actually look at Articuno, think about it, and you'll realise. Straight off it has a 4x weakness to Stealth Rock. Its offensive movepool is tiny - the special end conisisting entirely of Ice Beam/Blizzard, Air Cutter, Hidden Power, Signal Beam and Extrasensory (from XD). The physical end is equally pathetic if not more so, with only Aerial Ace or Ice Shard for STAB then U-Turn and Return. It's supportive capabilities are slightly more promising, with Reflect, Light Screen, Haze and Heal Bell (last two from XD). With Roost, that's seriously all it can do, or Toxistall. Not very threatening.

I'd say more but I've written enough for now. Maybe later. Please take what I've said into consideration. Mr. Black 07:14, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

OK I've got some more to say. What on Earth is Claydol doing in OU. It can drop down to UU no problem - UUs can handle it, it's defensive but not overly so due to poor HP, and it is nowhere near good enough for OU. It lacks a reliable recovery move and has an Ice weakness. It doesn't shine as a special attacker and it doesn't have a big enough DEF & HP combined for Calm Mind without reliable recovery.

I'll write a nice big post about why Garchomp is Uber soon.

Not that it honestly matters, but Sudowoodo and Bibarel can safely move up to UU. Sudowoodo is actually quite a decent UU with some unique options, while Bibarel has access to Curse now and it can seriously become quite threatening. For example, it can get both defensive stats at 450+ after one use of Curse and one use of Amnesia, which also raises ATK to 400+. Waterfall/Return combination has never looked better when both get STAB, with only Empoleon resisting both. Mr. Black 08:19, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Don't all tier lists consist of opinion as well as a few facts? Don't like this one? Make your own. Gywall^(Talk) 10:05, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Or take it to the forums for discussion. Gywall^(Talk) 10:05, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Mr Black, you have my thanks. I've been begging for updates for ages but to no avail. I agree on everything you've said so far (with only the possible exception of Blaziken) and this thing really needs work.

I've actually seen quite a lot of Tentacruel lately, and that's in OU. It's those decent defensive stats combined with Rapid Spin and Toxic Spikes that make him so valuable.

I have no freaking clue what Claydol is doing in OU. He's UU, sure, he's a top-quality UU, but he certainly should never be higher than BL.

Like I've said, the huge things that are really eating me are Garchomp and Scizor. Anyone who play competitively knows that almost every team has a Scizor, and that none of them have Garchomp because he's Uber.

Also, as much as I love Umbreon, he's not as good as he was back in ADV. Drop him down to BL. Scarfcrosspwns 05:23, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Garchomp Uber?

I'll say that Garchomp should be in the Borderline tier. I can OHKO a Garchomp with an Ice Beam easily. Yeah well I can due that to dragonite and salamence but without ice beam their good, doesn't matter what you can do.

My god. If you think Garchomp is BL, you are freaking retarded. I don't mean to be rude, but he's been known as one of the most devastatingly fearsome OUs since D/P came out, and now he's considered to powerful for OU and Smogon moved him up to Uber.

The fact is, a Pokémon can't be considered weak just because it has one compound weakness. The vast majority of Pokémon actually do have one (think Scizor, one of the most popular Pokémon in the game right now.) Also, nearly all Garchomps carried Yache berries, meaning they can take an Ice Beam and KO you due to those powerful moves and a massive Attack stat. It was way too common for Garchomp sweeps to decide the outcome of a battle, so Smogon banned him. They did their research, too, it wasn't a hasty decision. They spent upwards of a month battling without him to see how the metagame would change, and his disappearance changed everything.

You know a Pokémon's popular when people EV their Special Attack stat specifically to KO him. Scarfcrosspwns 05:12, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Can somebody, ANYBODY update this?????

It's like, rotting in the garbage can... Garchomp is now uber... Articuno's UU, etc. You get my point. ---JirachiWishmaker0802 06:36, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Please PLEASE update this list! I can't believe how long it's been! Does anybody even have the power to? Garchomp in OU and Scizor in BL are the huge killers for me. It's so horrible, and nobody's edited it in months! Scarfcrosspwns 05:14, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

We're discussing DELETING it, dude. Calm down. --((Marton imos)) 05:18, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

If it'd just be updated for once, it wouldn't need deleting! Scarfcrosspwns 05:26, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Nah. We've decided that BP is not a competitive battling site, so it has no place here. At all. --((Marton imos)) 04:17, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Clamperl?!

Deapseatooth Clamperl are at least UU. MathijsP 07:52, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

@Gywall

I have made my own. I would be more than happy for this site to use it. But if they don't want to, I'll have to stick with helping out this one.

Quote: 'take it to the forums for discussion'

Well I assumed I could discuss it on the page called 'Discussion'

And the idea of a good tier list IS one based on fact not opinion.

Mr. Black 06:49, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

No

No offense, but like smash brothers tiers, these are bull s#!%. My absol pinned an arceus with maxxed out stats. In Normal form.Shadow1337 00:54, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

We are aware of the problem, and we are working on it. There is a big argument on the forums. the solution me and Cipher came to was to get rid of it entirely. -- MAGNEDETH 01:05, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. Sorry for the outburst but I got tired of this crap in brawl.Shadow1337 01:16, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

i know what you mean. any Brawl character can destroy another, it depends on whos holding the controller. also is ti say that my UU Kingler can destroy an OU T-tar. but, you also have to realize that for the most part, its based on how often its used. thusly, over-used. but either way, this sort of stuff isnt useful on a wiki.

Awaiting deletion

A discussion has been raised by Mr. Black on the forums; practically all the participants are now of the opinion that the tier lists do not belong in Bulbapedia. My stance on the subject is expressed in this post. Argy and I are the only editorial board members to have voiced our opinions so far, but we both agree that the tiers lists should be replaced with detailed explanations of the six different tiers, their merit and possibly a collection of links to established lists.

This is now a matter to be decided by the editorial board. However, those of you who feel that the lists should not be removed, are welcome to raise their points either here or in the specified forum thread. Be aware that the arguments in favor of removing the lists are quite compelling, so unless you can come up with equally good points, it is only a matter of time before the final decision is made to dispense with the tiers. --Unown Lord 12:17, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I think more important than the fact that people don't come to Bulbapedia to see tiers is that having such a subjective list on this site will be too unmanageable. If we do become a resource for battling, we would have many, many people complaining about how this subjective list is not subjected to their own subjective views. --Raijinili 06:33, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

True no-one comes to Bulbapedia for tiers...only if there was an official tier list...--Wowy 06:37, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

If only. [1] Scarfcrosspwns 05:30, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

overused?

How could Regice be in the Overused tier when Regigigas is not?! I do think Empoleon belongs in the Overused tier. - unsigned comment from Masterdude (talk • contribs)

Regigigas ability makes it horrible. That's why it's not OU. Regice is OU because it is the best Special wall in the game; after one Amnesia, it isn't even 3HKO'd by super effective Special attacks. ^Chocolate 22:30, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Then what about Physical Attacks like Flare Blitz?- unsigned comment from Masterdude (talk • contribs)

seriously, empoleon, tortera and infernape are so OU. ~Masterdude~

Physical attacks also won't do much to a Pokémon with 100 base Defense. Just think about it. Regice has 80 base HP, 50 base Attack and Speed, 100 base Defense and Special Attack, and a colossal 200 base Special Defense. I think it's safe to say that Regice is OU. ^Chocolate 01:00, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

But I say that Regigigas is a definite OU if you use it properly in double battles.Just remove its ability with Gastro Acid or Skill Swap and Regigigas is back in action. - unsigned comment from Masterdude (talk • contribs)

the tiers are gone, no more discussions about it, please. -- MAGNEDETH 02:45, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion

Why not change this page to list different tier lists from prominent websites such as Smogon? Then, we wouldn't have people bitching about how it's done on this talk page, but rather they'd have to bitch about it on the website in question. - unsigned comment from Missingno. Master (talk • contribs) 20:07, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Very true that would be a good idea--Wowy 05:07, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Empoleon

I really think Empoleon belongs to the Overused tier due to its major resistances, 1 immunity, not effected by sandstorm and resists stealth rock. Also adding its super special attack stat makes this pokemon worthy of being OU. Masterdude 21:28, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Look up in the sky! "The tier list on this page is being considered for removal. Please do not discuss the contents of the tier list during this process, but rather make arguments for and against the removal."--Kkllnn blastoise 21:34, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Overhaul

the page has been completely redone. is everyone happy now? -- MAGNEDETH 06:27, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Except for the fact that you moved it into the wrong name space, I like the page a lot better now. ^Chocolate 21:30, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

One more thing is that the Links should be External links. XD TESHIGIGAS 21:32, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Also, Beautifly and Butterfree are mixed up, and Exploud is UU, not NU. The NU tier only existed in Generation III, but Exploud was UU then. ^Chocolate 21:34, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

this ^^^ is exactly why we got rid of tiers. -- MAGNEDETH 23:27, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

ive changed some Pokemon around. also, while it "was NU, and is now UU" may be, the fact of the matter is it was NU, and its their for definition. -- MAGNEDETH 23:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)