- NOTE*: Before you make comments on a pokemons' tier, be sure the conditions are fair. Lower ranked pokemon can beat higher ranked pokemon. This does not mean the tiers need to be fixed. Just because a Butterfree can KO Heracross with Arial Ace does not mean that either pokemon is in the wrong tier. Thank you.
Are you sure about this?
As far as I can tell, by watching YouTube videos of Wi-Fi PBR battles, there are not this many tiers, and some Pokémon seem to be placed wrong. I've watched hundreds of battles, and not once have I seen an Aggron or Victreebel, both of which are listed as moderately used. On the other hand, I've seen lots of Pidgeot and Pachirisu, which are both in the never-used category according to this page. Who determined this list, and how did they determine it? Zurqoxn 01:51, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- I believe it was based off some list posted at some website. I don't know which one. But at any rate, there are three things to consider. One, the rate at which things are used are not equal to how high something is on the tier list. Two, opinions of what goes into what tier vary. For instance, Smogon generally agrees Manaphy is uber tier. Third, technically, it is too early in the competitive battling scene to make a proper, full, tier list. In fact, for that reason alone, I believe this article should be deleted or at least changed to descriptions of each tier only until that time comes. System Error 06:22, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- The site was probably Smogon, if you're wondering. Tiers are based mostly off of base stats, types and move pools for each Pokémon. For example, Skarmory is placed in Over Used because of its ability to take a hit and stay standing, due to high Defense and the Steel/Flying types, and its varied move pool. Also, I've never really seen a moderately used tier before, but it makes sense, especially after the changes to game play Diamond and Pearl have made. As a final note, I have also noticed that tiers change rapidly, based on current trends, play styles, and new discoveries. To make the article more accurate and appropriate, we could add a section on controversies, noting such debates as whether Manaphy, Celebi or Tyranitar qualify as Uber or not, and which Pokémon seem to hover between Overused and Borderline. -DarkMazer 00:26, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
- Also in the recent rush of Trick-Disable pokemon, pokemon such as Kecleon and Mr. Mime have gained a significant boost. I would say MU is fitting for these pokemon. And Sceptile could easily be BL since Worry Seed on Slaking was discovered. These two examples show how in the time between the creation of this list, and now, the metagame has already changed. Also from my personal standpoint, I have seen hundreds of Castforms being used efficiently
User: KarpiFloodcheck 11:55 26 August 2007
I'm pretty sure Sudowoodo is UU or even MU due to his nice attack and defence stats and decent movepool.
Because Porygon2 has higher defensive stats than Porygon-Z, he is still a useable option, probably MU.
Wynaut only has 95 base HP, and can usually be beaten in OU. The reason It's usually classed as Uber is because of the fact that if two Wynauts/Wobbuffets meet, the battle is an automatic draw. So the question is, do we want him out of the picture, or allowed in OU and hope that you don't see another?
There are a few decent pokemon listed as OU, that I'm pretty sure are BL, especially on this list, due to the presence of the MU category. These include:
Donphan (Good but questionable)
Machamp (Slow, generally outclassed by Lucario and Heracross (among others)
Magnezone (4x weakness to the most common offensive type there is.)
Mamoswine (Thought he was MU to be honest)
Medicham (Not bad, but not exactly great either)
Milotic (Outclassed by Suicune.)
Ninjask (the baton passer was a Gen III fad that nobody knew how to deal with. People are wiser now.)
Slowbro (Not sure why he's BL to be honest, good stats, good movepool, and somewhat unpredictable. Suffers from "four-moveslot-syndrome though, this guy has at least ten great moves he could be using. He's probably considered too slow and it's hard to find a spare slot for Trick Room)
Staraptor (Too many weaknesses and not enough defences. He has great attack but he shares his speed with too many others and trails behind many OUs as well.)
Umbreon (This guy was near unbeatable back in Gen III, but didn't get any upgrades from the generation shift that the sweepers got. He is much tougher to use now.)
Weezing (is a good pokemon but is outclassed by Skarmory.)
- Hey, don't complain to US. We didn't come up with the crappy idea of tiers. So blah. User:TinaTheKirlia/Sig 03:50, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
1. As far as I'm concerned, Sudowoodo is UU
2. P2 is BL, not MU due to that fact
3. No one is really sure on Wynaut. Some say Uber, some say OU, some even say UU/NU.
4. Hi Garchomp, watch me Ice Shard AND it is one of the best Spinners in the game
5. High defense, Attack, Immunity to most spinners, and Elemental Punches to smack 'em back.
6. Have YOU ever eaten a No Guard DynamicPunch?
7. Hi Skarmory, stay a while, eat a ThunderBolt
8. Okaaaaaaaaaaay, High Attack, good Typing, and Access to two of the most offensive types. Say ByeBye
9. Two words. Pure. Power.
10. Rest+Marvel Scale=Not Pretty
11. So people can deal with it. Passing Speed Boost and Swords Dance can be quite scary.
12. Okay. Probably one of the best Bulky Waters in the game. SlackOff, Ice Beam, Surf, Psychic, is on of the best movesets.
Who needs Speed when you have bulk? If what you say is the case, Blissey and 'Zong should be MU also, Eh?
13. First statement that makes sense.
14. Physical dark moves isn't a bonus?
15. Only weak to psychic, Explode, Sludge Bomb. Skar. Weak to Electric and Fire, PHazer with Spikes and Roar/Whirlwind. Need I say more?
Any more Questions? Oh. And one more thing, THERE IS NO MU TIER! There is Uber, OU, UU, and NU. BL's are OU's but are used less.(This is why I loooooooooooooooooooove reading Smogon.) File:Ani197MS.gifMidnight CelticFile:Ani148MS.gif 16:54, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Yea, I dunno what's up with the MU tier here, but anyways:
2. Prob agreed
4. He is a great spinner, but so are Starmie and Claydol. Being able to counter three OUs with Ice Shard isn't enough to qualify him alone.
6. DynamicPunch is fun on 'Champ, especially combined with Stone Edge. However, if he's using it, he gives Dusknoir/Gengar a free switch in, and then they nail him with Will-O-Wisp. Not to mention the PP problems he will encounter. And as previously stated, he is simply too slow. Even with absolute max speed, a Jolly Scarf-Champ can't outrun a Jolly/Timid Infernape (and upward) or an Adamant Weavile (among others). I suppose, however, that in BL a Scarf-Champ could devastate all opposition so maybe OU is right.
7. Yea, he tears right through Skarmory, as well as Choice Metagross after it uses Meteor Mash. Unfortunetly, he's not good at much else.
8. Mamoswine isn't bad, but his speed is mediocre and his strongest physical Ice attack is Avalanch/Ice Fang. His movepool isn't great but since I just realized that he can learn Stone Edge he may be OU after all.
9. Pure Power is nice, putting his max attack at a whopping 480 (just a notch above Rampardos), however that requires an Adamant nature, leaving him at only 284 speed. His movepool isn't great either, and he's usually stuck with High Jump Kick as his fighting STAB and Psycho Cut as his Psychic. His other two attacks can be: Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Bulk Up, or Rock Slide (No Stone Edge). Unfortunatly, he has poor defences, so a faster pokemon with Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse and good Sp Attack(Alakazam, for instance) can OHKO. Further, since Psychic resists both STABs and Medicham can't learn Night Slash (or other Ghost/Dark physical moves), bulky Psychics (like Claydol, but watch for Ice Punch, or Slowbro, barring ThunderPunch) can wall him.
10. Rest has the unfortunate side effect of putting Milotic to sleep. Giving the opponent two turns to do whatever he wants to your Milotic is never healthy. I can already see the Gyrarados switching in, taunting and Ddancing.
11. The problem with Ninjask using swords dance is that he can be OHKOd by any solid attack, due to his miserable defences. It is therefore tricky to get the Swords Dance in without taking a big hit. He can be used well with a set like this, however: Baton Pass, Protect, Substitute, X-Scissor. This is normally passed to a pokemon with nice Attack/Sp. Attack, but poor Speed (such as Heracross).
12. Yea, Slowbro is super-cool, but defensively, he has quite a few common weaknesses: Electric, Grass, and Ghost/Dark. Your set doesn't have Calm Mind, and most Special attackers carry at least one of those types. Slowbro just can't voer everything it needs to with only four move-slots. However, it is certainly possible for him to be OU.
13. Yea, to me it seems a lot of people overrate this guy.
14. Physical dark move isn't a bonus when your base attack is 65.
15. Attacking isn't his specialty, due to low speed and mediocre offenses. Used defensively, he is too easy to beat with Special attacks because of 65 base HP and Pain Split as his best recovery move.
Also got a new one for you. Articuno. He is a real dipstick as a pokemon of course, however he learns the devastating combo Mind Reader + Sheer Cold. I believe he is usually classed BL (or MU here) but with this combo, many people say he can be used fairly in the Uber environment, because most Ubers can normally KO him with two attacks anyway. What do you think? Scarfcrosspwns 18:11, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
4. However, Its weaknessess, Grass, Water ,and Ice. Starmie: Grass, Electric, Ghost, Dark, and Bug. Claydol: Bug, Ghost, Grass, Dark, Water, and Ice. See a trend?
6. Maybe BL, but I look at the Definition. "BL Pokémon are stong enough to compete in OU, but the only difference is usage."
7. BL maybe, since it isn't used much. However, Magnezone has the defense to withstand a couple physical attacks and 13 resistances.
9. Or 426, since it is EXTREMELY RARE to see a 'cham sans scarf
10. Do you know what Marvel Scale does? 'dos doesn't have a Physical SE attack. It can learn Thunder/bolt, but wait! 60 Base Sp. Atk? I don't think so. Oh. And there is this wonderful Move called Sleep Talk. Helps bunches.
11. Magical Item, Focus Sash. Swords dance, get the speed boost, and get the heck out!
12. OR: Calm Mind, Surf, Psychic, Slackoff, you lose your coverage against Dragons, but Ice Beam is so common anyway.
14. Better than 60 Sp. Atk. It can wish, Toxic, and Annoy beyond recognition.
15. Yes, but One weakness sans Gravity/Iron orb helps bunches
Articuno. You know, most tourneys don't allow that kind of crud. Articuno is a one trick pony, with its trick being banned 99.9% of the time.
Milotic's Marvel Scale doubles his defence, it's true; however, after a few Ddances, Dos will have insane Att and Speed, and after a Taunt, Milotic won't be able to use rest or recover anyway (will he be allowed Sleep Talk? Unsure). He'll be forced to use Surf or Ice beam (or whatever, she doesn't learn any Electric attacks anyway) against Gyrados' good HP and SP Def.
Ninjask with Focus Sash could be interesting... but he'll only be useable once. Also, if the opponent has any priority move, 'Jask will be KOd before it can BPass.
For Umbreon, is 65 Attack really any better than 60 Sp Attack? Either way, your attacks won't do any damage. This guy is used exactly the way he was in the previous generation:Mean Look, BPass, Toxic, Wish/Moonlight. He's another guy who could use ten moveslots, for things like Taunt, Substitute and Confuse Ray.
Agreed on Articuno lol. But I do think he's allowed in Ubers with Mind Reader + Sheer Cold. Maybe he should be on the list twice with a footnote? Scarfcrosspwns 19:56, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Milotic would still probably be BL though.
There are 8 or nine priority moves. Most Ninjask are leads. I'm a little curious. How common are priority moves on leads? What are the chances? If it's not a lead, UU definitely, but Ninjask that AREN'T leads are slim to none.
Like I said, "ANNOYER"!
IF, and that is a mighty big IF, Crud like that is allowed, Smeargle, believe it or not does a better job, since it can trap, sleep, read, and OHKO. ANYTHING with Mind Reader/OHKO Move could be considered Uber due to your logic.
Milotic: At least BL, no argument there.
I don't know exactly how common priotity moves are on leads, but I do know that Weavile is very often used as a lead and frequently carries Ice Shard.
Umbreon... Are we arguing or agreeing on him? I'm lost lol.
So, should Smeargle and Articuno be in their respective classes, with a note about Uber? I think they're the only ones who get that combo. (Game Freak probably just gave it to Articuno because they felt sorry for him lol.)Scarfcrosspwns 01:37, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I thought most Weavile leads had Ice Punch, but I could be wrong, and just because something is counterable doesn't make it awful.
lol, I'm not sure, I know we started arguing, then I said 65 is better than 60, or annoyer. then you said it was an annoyer, so I think we agreed.
Ummm, no. just becaus something can do mind reader/OHKO, does not mean it's uber. Most of the Pokémon with both move means they have horrible stats. File:Ani197MS.gifMidnight CelticFile:Ani148MS.gif 16:23, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
The thing about Weavile is that it has five great moves: Ice Punch, Brick Break, Night Slash, Pursuit, and Ice Shard (Occasionally they carry Aerial Ace, Focus Punch or Swords Dance as well). Of those five moves, All Weavile will have at least three. It actually isn't rare to see a Weavile with both Ice Punch and Ice Shard. Ninjask is probably a decent opener overall if you pair it with the right pokemon (Heracross, physical Infernape, etc.).
Ok, so Umbreon = good annoyer, but not as good as in Gen III (What a shame, mine dominated the Battle Tower). 65 really is no better than 60 though, as he isn't attacking anyways.
Youère probably right on Articuno and Smeargle, though.
Tropius is NU?
The Elite four don't have anything to do with the tier list. Face it: they've got brains of cow droppings. This list is solely applicable in player vs player single battles.Scarfcrosspwns 20:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Hate to say it but Dewgong is NU. He has a horrible movepool and some sad stats. And hello? Dragonite and Garchomp both have 4x weaknesses to it's STAB attack! How could it not OHKO?Scarfcrosspwns 20:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Huntail??? NU???? In what fantasy dream realm is a Pokémon with base 104 Attack, STAB Waterfall, base 105 Defense, base 75 Special Defense, base 94 Special Attack, STAB Surf, and a possible 446 Speed stat in rainy weather, not to MENTION its other move options: Ice Beam, Ice Fang, Crunch, and even Aqua Tail, in NU? Huntail can wipe the floor with the NU tier! And Parasect! Base 95 attack, base 80 defenses, and such low speed that it can outspeed countless opponents in Trick Room conditions, Access to Cross Poison, X-Scissor (with STAB, no less!), and Spore, the most reliable sleep-inducing move in the game, and it's NU? I don't think so. Kinda like a Trick Room-friendly Crobat with a more reliable version of Hypnosis, and more Attack.Missingno. Master 19:40, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Huntail has miserable speed and hitpoints, and his movepool's pretty sad. Using Waterfall and Ice Fang, your attacks have lower power, or using Surf and Ice Beam, your offensive stat are lower. Although to some point, I must agree, he could be UU, he'd just be a bottom-of-the-rung UU. Parasect also has poor hitpoints and horrible typing. As most experienced gamers will know, fire- and flying- types are rare in the OU environment, due to weaknesses (*cough* Charizard/Moltres), poor movepools (Ninetails/Swellow), poor stat distribution (*cough* Flareon/Entei *cough*) and poor type coverage. They are usually stuck in UU and NU with Parasect, who happens to have a 4x weakness to both types. Parasect could be fun with Trick room, but how many Trick Room users do you see in NU? He also has problems with his abilities. With Dry Skin, you're essentially increasing his water resistance, but why do you need it? Parasect would also have some SunnyBeaming possibilities, but not with Dry Skin. Further, it turns his 4x fire weakness into an 8x fire weakness. Therefore, Effect Spore is a necessity. However, with Effect spore, if the opponent is hit with a condition, you can no longer use Spore to put him to sleep. Parasect going to be NU for a long time.Scarfcrosspwns 20:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Protected page, please
Any smhuck(no offense) can edit this and say their pokemon is uber, etc. Discussion like this should be relegated to the forums, where such discussion does not interfere. Somethign along the lines of the smashboard forums, that relegate smash characters, (periodically updated here by an admin) would work nicely imo.Dark0805 14:03, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Maybe it should be protected, but it should be accurate first, I would think. Scarfcrosspwns 01:41, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'm talking to TTEchdina right now and I'm suggesting it to him......--Theryguy512 01:45, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
There is no official tier list. Many people/websites have their own tier lists. For example, some people say that Wynaut is Uber, while some say that it is BL. What is up with that? Obviously, the Tier List has no true content. May we delete it?
- Hold you're horses, Cowboy! Before putting a Delete tag on it, ask other users about what they think. This is like the Bulbapedia:The Great Bulbapedia Turkey Shoot. Many people think that it should be delete, yet some do not. File:Ani234MS.gifMERRY File:Ani385MS.gif CHRISTMASFile:Ani225MS.gif 17:40, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
- I kinda think that we should delete it. After all, this is one of the things that people could put their own shit in it (Along with the Great Turkey Shoot. That page is a steaming pile of crap now, thanks to people overreacting to vandals. :/) and.. yeah. Although, if many people think that we should keep it, protect it instead from either new members or only admins. User:TinaTheKirlia/Sig 17:44, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
- Tiers are just a bunch of bullsh*t anyway. I've had my Glaceon kick a Garchomp's a$$ countless times, and they say that Glaceon is UU/BL? Pssshh. User:TinaTheKirlia/Sig 17:50, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Either that or move it to the Appendix.User:Optimus35/sig 04:11, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think we should do that.File:Ani386MS.gifPokeFile:Ani386AMS.gifmaniacFile:Ani386DMS.gif102File:Ani386SMS.gif 04:15, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
No way should it be deleted! This is probably the most important list ever for the competitive battler! It does need some work though.
- I think that it should
be deleted. Well, now that I see that it is in Appendix, I guess it could stay. --Theryguy512 02:53, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I really think Hitmonchan should be a Border Line. It knows Three STAB Piority First Moves, Can Learn the All Mighty BoltBeam Combo (With Ice/Thunder Punch, of course) And for Crying Out loud, it can Own Blissly In one shot, or atleast Mine can. So please put Hitmonchan in BL, not UU.--Quick Man107 17:00, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
- Uh.. *shrugs* We didn't come up with this list, so.. yeah. Can't help you there. Tiers are crap anyway -- they seriously, imo, mean absolutely nothing. And I'm a big competitive battler too. User:TinaTheKirlia/Sig 03:45, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
He's not BL, MU at best. Well, maybe he could be BL. He'd have really nice type coverage from a Choice set like this: Close Combat, Stone Edge, ThunderPunch, Ice Punch. Unfortunately, His Base Attack is too low to use on a Scarf set, or with a Band set, he'd be a pretty slow pokemon. Overall, however, Heracross massively outdoes him. Scarfcrosspwns 20:09, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Quick Man. I've used Hitmonchan consistantly in OU battles with Elemental Punches + Drain Punch. (Yes I know that move is crud. but try using it with an Iron Fist Hitmonchan against TTar. I've Recovered almost full health from brink of disaster. File:Ani197MS.gifMidnight CelticFile:Ani148MS.gif 17:05, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Maybe Tiers have Seperate Articles?
Okay the more I look at this talk page, the more "Why the hell is so-so in so-so when he can.. blah blah" I start to see. After awhile, it's going to be too much room for the talk page to handle don't you think? So I thought... that if we ARE gonna keep the tier list (Which I hope we do being a fan of competitive battling) that we make seperate articles for each tier? File:Ani026MS.gifMudkipchanFile:Ani392MS.gif
- Hmm.. that's a nice idea.. although like, if we do seperate the tiers into different pages we should have descriptions of what's mostly in there anyway. Like for example, we could say that OU Pokémon have very high stats and a large movepool, and some such as Tyranitar and Blissey can compete in Uber battles because they are strong enough. User:TinaTheKirlia/Sig 03:48, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
- That works too. But either way, I don't really care which way is done... it's just I don't want to see anything cluttered and such. :P Mudkipchan 16:08, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I think its Pure Power ability has something to do with it, which DOUBLES its attack stat.
- Well, although I haven't studied Medicham yet... I kinda have to agree about the Pure Power thing. But I'm also going to side on both sides here, cause it still has bad stas and a not so nice of a movepool... although it does have roles under its belt. :P Mudkipchan 17:31, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I think probably BL. He's just a bit too fragile. BL is not OU that is used less, It's actually supposed to be for those too strong to be UU. However, here we have MU for some reason...Scarfcrosspwns 20:01, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
TIRES DON EXITS
- Wait.. there's tiers for SSB too? User:TinaTheKirlia/Sig 16:56, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- WHAT? Seriously? But....they're only like 20 characters for the SSB games! Is the list like.....10? --Theryguy512 20:08, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Tier lists are about defining the hierarchy of effectivenenss. With the amount of variables between the different characters, yes, the serious competitive players have come to a consensus on who it is wise to use or not use in the tournament scene. National tournament-winners of Melee almost always use Marth, Fox, Falco or Sheik. --FabuVinny T-C-S 02:50, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- WHAT? Seriously? But....they're only like 20 characters for the SSB games! Is the list like.....10? --Theryguy512 20:08, 4 January 2008 (UTC)