Talk:Tier

Due to a decision to remove an article based entirely on opinions, the current article reflects the definition of each tier, and what they stand for.

Archives

• Archive 1 (discussions from July 3, 2007–October 9, 2008) - Pre-tier
• Archive 2 (discussions from October 9–November 10, 2008) - Pre-tier

The previous archives are related to when the page was an appendix list of actual tiers.

Please

Someone needs to move this article back to the Appendix: name space, where it belongs. Someone please do so. ^Chocolate 02:51, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

it is no longer an appendix based on opinions, it is a factual page now. -- MAGNEDETH 02:53, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The Appendix: is for fan stuff that not everyone agrees with. The tiers are by no means official, which is why it should be in the Appendix: name space. ^Chocolate 02:54, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

uh, yea, thats right. but as you can see, the BP tiers no longer exist. the "Tiers" exist as a term based in the Pokemon community; as in, its a fact they exist. rather than have a giant list that sparked enough debate for the ages, weve gotten rid of it in favor of factual definitions. it was approved by multiple EB members. i fail to see what youre so upset about. -- MAGNEDETH 02:58, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Precisely, this article is explaining exactly what tiers are, rather than giving a list of where each Pokémon belongs in a tier, which is indeed fandom. There is nothing wrong with this page explaining terms to those who don't know about them. Glinn Mgraw 03:02, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

A few fixes?

As a competitive battler quite a few things jump out at me as needing fixes.

Ubers: Wobbufet is not uncountable due to CounterCoat (Many others get this combo, Swampert for example) but due to the definition of counter requiring the ability to switch in and the fact that (outside of Batton Pass/U-turn, Shed Shell and another Wobby switching out) nothing can switch into it. It is also not an Uber by all tier lists (the Official Sever on Shoddy allows it in OU matches) so may not be the best choice as an example, but it is interesting so should stay IMO but with a clear mention that it is listed as Uber by many but not all sources.

Wynaut is not banned from OU due to its own battling powers, but rather due to its fully evolved form being Uber. Many lists allow Pre-Evos of Ubers and so allow Wynaut.

Garchomp has been classed as Uber by Smogon and most other lists followed suit, but not all. Also Chompy was banned for many other very complicated reasons which I would think that Bulbapedia would not want to go into (Overcentralization, almost always getting at least 1 kill, extreme popularity, ect). The reasons listed "high stats, movepool, and low amount of weaknesses" could be applyed to many other OUs.

I will post suggestions for the other sections when I have time Eric the espeon 21:27, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, only the problem with that idea is that we aren't listing the Pokémon in each tier anymore--The Kkllnnator blastoise 21:29, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Defining Tiers

I have a request.

Can we provide three things to this article?

Tiers - The correct definition of Tiers Tier Lists - The current definition of Tiers would fall under the term Tier List Skill - A warning for people on how to interpret Tier Lists

Tiers: Tiers are an idea, which states that some objects with certain value(s) are greater than other objects bound by laws. In the case of Pokemon, this would mean that certain Pokemon are better than other Pokemon at playing the game. What is the game? The game is Pokemon battling. What is the goal? The goal is to defeat the other team of Pokemon. If Pokemon A can contribute more to the final goal than Pokemon B, then A would be considered a higher Tier than B. In most games, balance is impossible, unless the two characters/cars/objects are exactly the same, or if the differences are quantifiable and measurable. For example, a fighting game in which two fighters, A and B, do damage to each other continuously over a time would be equal if A did 1 damage every 1/2 of a second and B did 2 damage every 1 second. However, in Pokemon, stats are extremely difficult to measure, and due to the large variance in even the same Pokemon (due to IVs, EVs, Natures, and, especially, movesets), it is difficult to measure them. Yet, because it is difficult to measure them, it is difficult to balance them. Pokemon is an unbalanced game. So, for Pokemon, the existence and idea of Tiers are a fact. In fact, Tiers have a bigger impact on Pokemon due to the wild variances between statistics and due to the fact that Pokemon is a turn-based game and that one can have 6, unbalanced characters on their team. For example, Flamethrower is a superior move to Ember. Tyranitar nearly 100% outclasses Absol in physical sweeping ability, 100% outclasses it in support ability (due to Sandstorm), completely outclasses it in special sweeping, completely outclasses it as a physical wall, completely outclasses it as a special wall, and has better synergy with it's team of 5 other Pokemon. Thus, we can easily say that Tyranitar does more to aid in reaching the goal than Absol, and Tyranitar is definitively a better Pokemon than Absol.

Tier Lists: Tier Lists are the opinions. Tier Lists are an effort to quantify Tiers. Tier Lists usually have more restrictions on them than the game originally comes with, and those restrictions are collectively known as a metagame. For example, Smogon's standard list comes with the restriction of banning Pokemon they have deemed as especially overpowered and overcentralizing to the metagame, such as Mewtwo or Deoxys-Attack Forme. In the game of Pokemon, Pokemon who have a low-risk, high return on the user's part are banned by Smogon. The metagame also represents the usage of certain strategies, and those strategies are not used often without reason. The move Pursuit is notable. If it weren't for the prevalence of Pursuit, Celebi would be considered Uber, or too overpowered. However, due to the large presence of Psychic-types, who are usually the premier special sweepers but physically frail, Pursuit has worked hand in hand with the boosted usage of strong, physical Dark-types. Due to Pursuit being omnipresent in the metagame, Celebi is considered OU. In Pokemon, there also exist counters. Most games have counters, as some characters have natural advantages that would help them defeat other characters. This is extremely significant in Pokemon, and is more obvious in one on one battles between Pokemon. A Glaceon may be considered a counter to Garchomp. Glaceon also has a high Defense, allowing it to sometimes switch into Garchomp, especially it's commonly used Earthquake or even Outrage, take the next shot of Earthquake or Outrage, then OHKO it with Ice Beam. However, this does not mean Garchomp is a worse Pokemon. In fact, Garchomp has easy ways to defeat it's counters, by way of attacks such as Swords Dance or Fire Fang. Plus, Garchomp contributes more to it's team than Glaceon. Garchomp has a wider range of resists and has higher HP, and can actually take physical hits better than Glaceon, despite it's physical defense being it's best stat, and can easily KO more Pokemon than Glaceon. Garchomp is a better Pokemon than Glaceon in the Smogon metagame, and thus is reflected in their Tier Lists. In fact, Garchomp is a better Pokemon in the Official Nintendo metagame, as the only differences between the Smogon and Nintendo metagame are the ban list, However, if there was a metagame in which Earthquake, Outrage, Dragon Claw, Fire Fang, and Swords Dance could not be used, then Glaceon would be a better Pokemon than Garchomp.

Skill: Although I wrote this here last, this should probably go near the top of the article. This is the main warning for those reading this article. It should be said that Skill is always a higher deciding factor in most video games. A more skilled player will usually triumph over a less skilled player. Indications of less skill would include things such as teaching Earthquake to a Pokemon with low Attack Power, using Earthquake on a Pokemon with Levitate, etc, etc. Skill differences would also include predicting ability, teaching a Pokemon certain movesets, learning to use certain moves at certain times, knowing when the switch, using Pokemon to their best roles, etc, etc. When player A uses Pokemon who are more powerful than the Pokemon on player B's team, player B simply is simply less likely to win. Through good prediction, good movesets, etc, player B can always defeat player A. As another example, even though there is a prevalence of teams full of sweepers, Pokemon designed to KO as many other Pokemon as possible, it is still possible to win using other methods, such as Baton Passing with Pokemon who aren't considered high up on a Tier List, such as Medicham and Smeargle, or Stalling, with "UU" Pokemon such as Weezing.

I hope this wasn't too much to read. To be honest, I was sifting through the archives and noticed people saying "Tiers are BS" and I sort of wanted to clear it up, and maybe see if they were willing to read the other side of the argument, and see that they had some notions which were flat out wrong.

I also want to make the argument about articles being bad because they are opinions; for one, tiers aren't opinions. Tier Lists might be opinions. However, there is a true and clear concept for tiers. It's good to see the Tier List gone, because that's not Bulbapedia's job, but the previous arguments bashing it for being opinions might have been valid if it weren't for the fact that Shipping articles have a place on Bulbapedia. But, a Shipping article are about an idea supported by some purported facts, and Tiers are an idea supported by purported facts. Every game information site that has a competitive flavor to it should have an article on tiers, and explain them in the context of the game.

Hopefully, we can agree to a base definition for Skill, Tiers, and Tier Lists that can be on the page. The Skill part would be sort of a warning to people who supposedly want to choose a team based on the tiers. We might also want to remove Smogon's definitions for UU, BL, OU, etc. Instead of referencing Smogon, we could simply state that there are Pokemon who are clearly used very much, such as Gengar and Infernape, and Pokemon who are not used very often, such as Luvdisc, and mention ban lists. Thus, there would be no need to go into BL, which is 100% a "fanon" thing.

GoldenBattler

Congratulations. Encyclopedia. We don't do recommended movesets, we don't have a tier list. We just give the people the facts about each and every Pokémon and let them decide what they wanna use. Better than the tier thing anyway. TTEchidna 09:03, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, I didn't really expect you to read that wall, but you clearly didn't get the point. Who said something about recommended movesets? Nobody. Who said something about your tier list? I did, but I stated that I was glad that Bulbapedia's tier list was gone. I was simply asking for a better definition of tiers, and I also want the whole "Tiers are opinions" mindset, which is false, to go away. GoldenBattler

Legendaries and Ubers

Could someone who can edit this page add a note in the Ubers section saying not all legendaries are Ubers? I'm getting rather sick of people telling me off because I use legendaries that are part of OU/UU. Thanks. RegalStar 19:34, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

NU

the article says that smogon doesn't have a NU tier anymore, but in fact they have recently added it again, so can an administrator remove that from the article? Oh and another thing, who knows what somogon's limbo tier means? Mijzelffan 18:11, 10 June 2009 (UTC)