Talk:Soaring in the sky

Mirage spots

I think we need to address the issue of multiple Mirage Caves, Islands and Forest from previous gens, games and the TCG.

So to try and minimize confusion between the old Mirage Cave, Mirage Island and Mirage Forest and Gen VI Mirage Cave, Island, and Forest, we should change the Mirage Cave article to Mirage Cave Article to Mirage Cave (Mystery Dungeon) and turn the Mirage Cave Article into a directory article like the Unknown Dungeon article http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Unknown_Dungeon which would direct people to either the Mystery Dungeon version or the ORAS version Mirage Cave (Hoenn)

Next, the Mirage Island article (which is the real [censored] of this all) should also be turned into a Directory article. It should direct people to Mirage Island (RSE) for the Gen III version, and Mirage Island (ORAS) for the Gen VI version. Or we could also carefully retrofit it to cover both the RSE version and the ORAS version. I'm not opposed to either option.

Finally there should be a Mirage Forest Directory article that article directs people to Mirage Forest (Holon) (which would more or less just go to the same article that Mirage Forest currently redirects to) and Mirage Forest (Hoenn)

Since Mirage Mountain hasn't been used (to my knowledge) before, it simply should get a article titled Mirage Mountain (Hoenn). Yamitora1 (talk) 00:42, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Or we could just make them Mirage Forests, Mirage Caves, Mirage Islands and Mirage Mountains and throw a Template:Samename at the top. Or split them apart into 32 tiny, separate articles using the numbering system from the guide. glik^glak 01:31, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

For now, it's best to just create four pages with the plural titles glik mentions. No direct conflicts, just add a little directory template on confusing pages like Mirage Island.

In the meantime, we can continue debating page names or merges or splits or whatever; but at least the information won't wait on those decisions. Tiddlywinks (talk) 01:42, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

I have created a preliminary page here. If the design is liked, it can become the template to make the other three. Adamws (talk) 17:34, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

That is a good start, but when you're in a mirage spot it will say Unknown Area and you can't tell where you are so the maps are not needed.Yamitora1 (talk) 05:34, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

FWIW, I think maybe it would be nice if the locations were listed in numerical order of the route they're near (if it's near a city instead, then I suppose it'd depend on the earliest route connected to that city). Tiddlywinks (talk) 05:46, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

The maps are just place holders. They will be layout images in the final version. I do agree with you on the numerical order, Tiddlywinks, we just need the other locations before the order can be finalized. Adamws (talk) 06:47, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

I did some searching around the web to see what others had to say about Mirage Islands. Its mostly a abyss of FAQ type stuff but I did learn that Serebii is counting Mirage Caves, Forests and Mountains as variations of the Mirage Islands, and not entirely separate Mirage Spots.

But we can't go by them lol. Anyways, does anyone have the Official Guide? How does it explain Mirage spots and Mirage Islands? Yamitora1 (talk) 21:07, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

It calls Mirage Islands a variety of Mirage spot, along with all the others. glik^glak 00:49, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Move

Soaring would be a more suitable name for this article, imo. But if someone has a better title, feel free to suggest it.--ForceFire 04:58, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

While Soaring would be a better name, the in-game location for the Pokémon obtained via soaring is "Soaring in the sky". Adamws (talk) 05:20, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

The purpose of this page was to be the location "Soaring in the sky". Adding the mechanics of soaring was my orignal idea because the mechanics page for soaring would be extremely short. Adamws (talk) 17:34, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Here is evidence that this is a location: ORAS Dialga. I don't have a capture card so I used my camera. Adamws (talk) 17:55, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the guide almost always refers to it as Soar. Instead of "Soaring", it usually says "using Soar", as if it were a move. If the mechanic and the "location" are to be lumped together, I think the mechanic should have naming precedence. glik^glak 00:49, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

I think this come to down to policy. Which canon supersedes the other? I believe the page should stay as "Soaring in the sky" as the location make up over 95% of the page. Adamws (talk) 01:43, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

There's not two canons, they're both in the game. Though I hesitate to call "Soaring in the sky" an actual location. It seems more like it just means you met it while Soaring. Besides, if this page were focused solely on the mechanic, the "location" information would still be relevant, as it's required to fully explain the mechanic. glik^glak 02:35, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

/late reply. But yeah, I agree that this page would be more suitable as a mechanics page with all the locations mentioned in the article.--ForceFire 03:06, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Ok, however the name of the area should still be mentioned somewhere on here. Adamws (talk) 04:42, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Sea Mauville

Should we list Sea Mauville? its a odd ball among the other Mirage spots. You can reach it without soaring, but it still has the mysterious floating rings. Or perhaps we should make a separate Mirage spot article? Yamitora1 (talk) 18:23, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't think so. It does have the mysterious rings but unlike the other Mirage Spots, it is always there and doesn't require a certain Pokémon in your party to appear, or appear and disappear daily. Adamws (talk) 18:29, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

But it does require a special item, and only the Mirage cave, forest, island, crescent isle and mountains temporarily disappear, and the Storm Clouds and rifts in the Space-Time Continuum vanish permanently. All the other places remain open, they just lose the red shimmer effect but they can still be traveled to.

I believe it deserves some mention.Yamitora1 (talk) 18:54, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

I disagree with putting it on. This page is for the locations that are accessible only through soaring. But let's wait for another opinion before adding it on the page. Adamws (talk) 19:19, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Aren't the ring portals considered spots themselves? If so, then we need a article dedicated only to Mirage spots and/or these rings. Yamitora1 (talk) 19:42, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

If we made a page dedicated to just the rings or to the mirage spot idea, it would be a short page if it had nothing from this page. The spots already have pages and links from and to this page. Those mentioned on this page require soaring to reach all of them. The rings that appear in areas that you can reach without soaring (the Sea Mauville and the Scorched Slab) don't really need to be on the page. Adamws (talk) 20:24, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Well, lets look at it this way. How many locations are only available through surf? Sure there are Pokémon you can encounter while surfing listed, but all the locations themselves are not. We need to make this article only about soaring, we can keep the list of Pokémon from flocks but put all other info into their own articles. Yamitora1 (talk) 20:36, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps you can just add another header under Locations. Perhaps you could add a new section "Normal locations" (or something better, IDK what) before the current sections and re-emphasize that any previously visited location can be visited from the sky, and at the same time note that Sea Mauville and the Scorched Slab inexplicably have the floating rings.

After all, if the section is "Locations", that implies to me that it should cover all accessible locations, not just the special ones.

@Yamitora: Surf isn't a great analogy. Surf is purely a mechanic, and you can surf in many different locations (yielding many different sets of encounterable Pokemon); but "soaring" is a mechanic that gives you access to a single area (with one set of Pokemon)...from which multiple other special areas are accessible. Tiddlywinks (talk) 20:44, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Ok, two things. One: This article is about the location "Soaring in the sky" (see the above post in the Move section). The reason that there is the mechanics for soaring are on this page is that the page would be a stub if soaring (the mechanic) was its own page. The reason that the other locations are mention is that they can only be visited via soaring. It is like an extended connection locations section of the location info box (look at Route 101 to see what I mean).

Second thing: I looked on Pokémon.com to see if the wording could give the definition of "Mirage Spot." The wording points to the rings themselves being the Mirage Spots. So, yes, I do now agree that a link to the Sea Mauville and the Scorched Slab can be on this page, they just need to be under their own subsection. Thereby, I agree with Tiddlywinks. Adamws (talk) 20:57, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Any one else feel like smacking the GameFreak Director in the Lillycove Hotel and yelling "You're making things too complicated!" ? I mean just go right up to him from behind, and give him a good old fashion donkey punch to the back of the head! >_<

Anyways, come to think of it, In all the official chatter about soaring, they never specifically said that you could only reach Mirage spots via soaring, only that you could reach them with it and that you could find rare Pokémon with it. Yamitora1 (talk) 21:30, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

The website doesn't even mention the rings. In fact, it says In these games, you can encounter Legendary Pokémon in all kinds of places, and Mirage spots are just one of many!, implying the rings are entirely separate from the spots. The guide backs this up by calling them "mysterious rings", and not conflating them with Mirage spots (which wouldn't make sense anyways, since the rings only show up at the special Mirage spots). There's no reason to list any location not exclusively reached through Soar. glik^glak 00:49, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

I thought it was fairly clear that Mirage Spots refer to the temporary locations accessed by soaring, not to the "rings" containing Legendary Pokémon. Trainers encountered in Secret Bases say that Pokémon like Tangela or Happiny (ones that are found in tall grass or in Mirage Caves) can be "found in Mirage Spots". They also list Pokémon like Raikou that can be found in "rings" in Mirage Spots, but I would assume that that's because the Mirage Spot (Pathless Plain, Trackless Forest, etc.) are Mirage Spots that happen to have those rings in them, rather than because the rings themselves are the Mirage Spots. Considering that, I would agree that Sea Mauville and Scorched Slab should be removed from the page, since they are permanent locations that are accessible even without soaring—not Mirage Spots at all. --Andy^P_K^M_N (talk) 01:21, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

My brain hurts. Pokémon.com is conflicting itself, on the same page. One section says the quote that Glik mentioned, but there is also this quote: "Mirage spots can be found in the clouds and on small islands and in other locations..." As there is no location it the clouds, just the ring, it make it seem that Mirage spots are the rings. Whether the Sea Mauville and the Scorched Slab belong here is a question of the exact definition of "Mirage spot." Adamws (talk) 01:35, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

(resetting indent)The Storm Clouds are a Mirage spot. There aren't any rings just floating around, they're all inside a location. glik^glak 02:35, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps its a translation issue; perhaps the Japanese site better explains the rings, and its getting lost in translation?

As for Sea Mauvile and the Scorched Slab being permanent, all of the main Mirage spots are permanent except for the islands, storm clouds and dimensional rifts. I caught the three Johto beasts and I can still travel to the Trackless Forest. Its only lost its red glimmer icon, nothing else. Also, the Mysterious rings still are the catalysis in which the event Pokémon appears even in the storm clouds/dimensional rifts. Yamitora1 (talk) 05:46, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

The organization that I used is as follows: Daily are the Mirage spots that only appear for 24 hours and can only be accessed via soar. Fixed are the Mirage spots that are always accessible if the requirements are met, whether the red sparkle is there or not and can only be accessed via soaring. The Other is those that don't fit in the previous two, either disappearing permanently after the Pokémon are obtained (Rift and Cloud) or can be accessed while on the ground (Sea Mauville and Scorched Slab). Adamws (talk) 05:59, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

I see, well that certainly helps a lot. I still want to use a Choke pear on the gamefreak director for making my head hurt, but at least we have a good place to work from. Yamitora1 (talk) 06:07, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

I think the current "definition" of Mirage spots is wrong. I think only the "Daily" locations are "Mirage spots". (In other words, basically like it was structured previously.) They seem to be the ones that really act like mirages, which is essentially how the games define them. The "Fixed" locations just sound like they're uniquely accessible by Soaring, and the "Other" locations are just wrappings for special encounters. They're just easy to conflate with Mirage spots because they're all accessible by Soaring, but that's not the proper and complete requirement for a "Mirage spot".I was wrong. Since the "Fixed" locations have conditions, they're like mirages. And I guess the clouds/gaps get a pass. Plus they're all mentioned on the official site... But I think there could be a better word than "Fixed" for that set of locations.

@Yamitora: I had a rather different image of what the rings might be at first, but seeing them on the official site and your new edit, I think they're nothing but portals to special encounters. They don't have any special connection with "Mirage spots", you're just overthinking it. Tiddlywinks (talk) 06:29, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Both Sea Mauville and the Scorched Slab portals do have conditions. You have to have a item for the former, and you have to have dealt with Groundon/Kyogre for the latter.Yamitora1 (talk) 07:12, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm thinking I really can't form a good opinion at this point without playing the game myself. But let me ask this: before beating Kyogre/Groundon, can you stand where the portal should be? If so, then I could agree that it's conditional; but if not...well, I could perhaps swing either way, but I'd lean a bit towards not. (This is still a bit separate from whether I think portal = Mirage spot. I want to play the game to decide that.) Tiddlywinks (talk) 16:46, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

With Sea Mauville, you can stand (or float) where the rings would appear before you get the item needed. With the Scorched Slab, to be honest I visited it before defeating Kyogre, and I'm not sure how I missed it, but I don't remember seeing the 3rd basement entry way until after defeating it. Yamitora1 (talk) 23:48, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Official Names - Huge gap to Dimensional Rift; Black clouds to Storm clouds

It is said in the recent update of the official US website of Pokémon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire that you can encounter Dialga, Palkia and Girantina in the Dimensional Rift Mirage Spot and Tornadus, Thundurus and Landorus in the Storm Cloud Mirage Spot that can be both found in the sky of Hoenn.

• Dimensional Rift link: http://www.pokemonrubysapphire.com/en-us/pokemon/legendary-pokemon/introducing-more-legendary-pokemon
• Storm cloud link: http://www.pokemonrubysapphire.com/en-us/pokemon/legendary-pokemon/more-legendary-pokemon-appearing-in-mirage-spots

So, can someone please revert the article back to the one with the changes I made? If the 'tt' is not acceptable, it's ok. I just thought of it as a cleaner way than to show it all. — AwesomeDJPokémon 18:30, 19 December 2014 (UTC)